Leinster v Munster Semi final Build up thread

Podge_irl

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Podge_irl wrote: »

Bans don't carry over the summer (except, bizarrely, if you are Callum Clarke).

Where are you getting that from?

David Atoub was banned from January 2010 until April 2011... As far as I know that stood?

As in a 3 week ban given now would mean 3 weeks come September (that wasn’t very clearly worded).

They gave Clarke a 30 odd week ban for his thuggery and then weirdly negated it’s severity by counting the summer weeks (due to the unusual length of it or some nonsense).

The Attoub one is also weird - didn’t realise that. The weeks are only supposed to count when there it is a match week.

irishbucsfan

Podge_irl wrote: »

As in a 3 week ban given now would mean 3 weeks come September (that wasn’t very clearly worded).

They gave Clarke a 30 odd week ban for his thuggery and then weirdly negated it’s severity by counting the summer weeks (due to the unusual length of it or some nonsense).

The Attoub one is also weird - didn’t realise that. The weeks are only supposed to count when there it is a match week.

Yeah, only thing is they generally subtract test match windows and pre-season friendlies to reduce as much has possible. Think that's how Clark got so much out of it.

Attoub was banned for 70 weeks though I think.

aloooof

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yeah, only thing is they generally subtract test match windows and pre-season friendlies to reduce as much has possible. Think that's how Clark got so much out of it.

Wasn't there some very 'creative accounting' for Sonny Bill Williams as well, after his red in the Lions tour? (Or possibly a red before it)?

Herpes Free Since03

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I've watched it a few times. McGrath's initial contact might be illegal and it's possible that he was trying to hold him into the breakdown. It's possible in that it happens a lot at the breakdown, but you can't see his arms or hands clearly at all.

Both of his interactions are potentially illegal however you will see players on both teams at it repeatedly over the duration of a match.

Now if people are suggesting that he intentionally tried to pin his leg to force an injury you can pony up some very concrete proof or you can f**k right off with that kind of accusation.

I don't think there's anybody! suggesting that there was an deliberate act to try and injure a player.
My only observation was that it was just another thing the ref missed to add to an increasing list

Squatter

aloooof wrote: »

Wasn't there some very 'creative accounting' for Sonny Bill Williams as well, after his red in the Lions tour? (Or possibly a red before it)?

Yep.

The Kiwis created a spurious All Black 'trial' match against Counties Manukau (40 minutes) and Taranaki (40 minutes) which he was suspended for, meaning that he was available to play in the Championship.

arsebiscuits1

Wow.

20 pages of complete back and forth waffle because people keep rising to about 3 posters. 1 a clear troll and the others hopefully trolls but more likely just odd people with strange points of view - which makes me a bit sad.

From what I can see it's just people clutching at straws because they want to deflect their teams short comings and people keep rising to it.

Honestly... this place can wear me down.

Thankfully there's an Ireland squad to be announced this week. I am sure that thread will be civil

Boscoirl

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

From what I can see it's just people clutching at straws because they want to deflect their teams short comings and people keep rising to it.

Leinster don’t have short comings at the moment

Squatter

Boscoirl wrote: »

Leinster don’t have short comings at the moment

:eek:

We lost to Treviso at home and then got stuffed by a Connacht team so bad that their coach was immediately fired, FFS! Plus we have just lost Isa N and Nordie M:- we're a team in free fall!

Personally, I'm just relieved that there's no relegation in Pro 14 because otherwise we'd be dead men walking.

foxyladyxx

Boscoirl wrote: »

Leinster don’t have short comings at the moment

Spot on!

Squidgy Black

Boscoirl wrote: »

Leinster don’t have short comings at the moment

I'm sorry but we definitely do. Outside of our starting 15, our depth has been shown to be pretty poor compared to the start of the season.

Hooker is definitely the weakest spot of the pack with Cronin/Tracy, Strauss is retiring and Byrne hasn't really shown much. Behind Ryan/Toner/Fardy our 2nd row choices are fairly poor, Kearney and Nagle are a lost cause, and Moloney has shown a small bit of promise but nothing to get excited about. Back row has been unfortunate with injuries.

Scrumhalf, JGP has proven to be a decent backup but the whole only 2 non-kolpak players in the squad has caused us some trouble as McCarthy hasn't been able to step up sufficiently. Outside of Ringrose/Henshaw our centre options are really poor. ROL showed a bit of umph on Saturday but for the rest of the season he was fairly lacklustre. Noel Reid is just there for numbers essentially.

We definitely do not have "no short-comings" and our squad will really be stretched during the international windows next year unless some of the academy lads step up or some of the fringe players like Moloney and the likes of ROL and Adam Byrne find their form again.

arsebiscuits1

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I'm sorry but we definitely do. Outside of our starting 15, our depth has been shown to be pretty poor compared to the start of the season.

Hooker is definitely the weakest spot of the pack with Cronin/Tracy, Strauss is retiring and Byrne hasn't really shown much. Behind Ryan/Toner/Fardy our 2nd row choices are fairly poor, Kearney and Nagle are a lost cause, and Moloney has shown a small bit of promise but nothing to get excited about. Back row has been unfortunate with injuries.

Scrumhalf, JGP has proven to be a decent backup but the whole only 2 non-kolpak players in the squad has caused us some trouble as McCarthy hasn't been able to step up sufficiently. Outside of Ringrose/Henshaw our centre options are really poor. ROL showed a bit of umph on Saturday but for the rest of the season he was fairly lacklustre. Noel Reid is just there for numbers essentially.

We definitely do not have "no short-comings" and our squad will really be stretched during the international windows next year unless some of the academy lads step up or some of the fringe players like Moloney and the likes of ROL and Adam Byrne find their form again.

While I agree that we have shortcomings, your depth comment is untrue.

There was a lot of smug comments thrown about after Leinster lost to Treviso and Connacht saying our depth was a myth.

When people talk about depth, I interpret it to mean that one of our first team can drop, and there is someone there to take their place without it adversely affecting the team.

The concept of people putting out an entire second string team where the spine of the team is completely different and expecting the same results as the main squad is just not a fair barometer to measure squad depth on. Even the All Blacks would feel it if you just changed the spine of the team along with other wholesale changes.

So in truth, our depth is fantastic. Isa dropped out (who incidentally was in for Henshaw) and ROL comes on and has a brilliant game. Sexton cries off and Byrne comes in and manages the ship brilliantly.

There are holes in squad where ideally you want every position to be 3 deep, but the notion that Leinsters depth is poor is false given we comfortably have the deepest squad in Europe.

Also, it sounds a lot like I am disagreeing with your post, which is not the case, just adding to it I guess, don't interpret this as me trying to shut you down

Squidgy Black

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

While I agree that we have shortcomings, your depth comment is untrue.

There was a lot of smug comments thrown about after Leinster lost to Treviso and Connacht saying our depth was a myth.

When people talk about depth, I interpret it to mean that one of our first team can drop, and there is someone there to take their place without it adversely affecting the team.

The concept of people putting out an entire second string team where the spine of the team is completely different and expecting the same results as the main squad is just not a fair barometer to measure squad depth on. Even the All Blacks would feel it if you just changed the spine of the team along with other wholesale changes.

So in truth, our depth is fantastic. Isa dropped out (who incidentally was in for Henshaw) and ROL comes on and has a brilliant game. Sexton cries off and Byrne comes in and manages the ship brilliantly.

There are holes in squad where ideally you want every position to be 3 deep, but the notion that Leinsters depth is poor is false given we comfortably have the deepest squad in Europe.

Also, it sounds a lot like I am disagreeing with your post, which is not the case, just adding to it I guess, don't interpret this as me trying to shut you down

Not at all, and I agree that in certain positions we do have strength in depth, but there are spots where we are lacking. I definitely don't expect us to be able to put out a 2nd team and have the equivalent of a pro14 winning squad.

More just focusing on the statement of "we have no short-comings" that was posted.

ProudIRISHman

Where is the match thread?

sydthebeat

ProudIRISHman wrote: »

Where is the match thread?

ProudIRISHman

sydthebeat wrote: »

What happened>?

Who was saying the penalty at the end shouldn't have been one? Tracy was the tackler with a low chop tackle. Max Deegan was second there. Pretty standard stuff.

arsebiscuits1

Deleted User wrote: »

Who was saying the penalty at the end shouldn't have been one? Tracy was the tackler with a low chop tackle. Max Deegan was second there. Pretty standard stuff.

People complaining about the legality of that penalty have conveniently forgotten every other example of a jackal in the last 4 years....

prawnsambo

ProudIRISHman wrote: »

What happened>?

Leinster won. 16-15.

joseywhales

prawnsambo wrote: »

ProudIRISHman wrote: »

What happened>?

Leinster won. 16-15.

And we should be ashamed of ourselves!

stephen_n

ProudIRISHman wrote: »

What happened>?

The good guys won!

Buer

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

Who was saying the penalty at the end shouldn't have been one? Tracy was the tackler with a low chop tackle. Max Deegan was second there. Pretty standard stuff.

People complaining about the legality of that penalty have conveniently forgotten every other example of a jackal in the last 4 years....

I was one of them. However, when watching back you can clearly see that Deegan released for a split second as assist tackler before clamping on. He didn't do the exaggerated effort of throwing his hands in the air but he did break contact.

He's still slightly fortunate given how risky it was to go for it and the circumstances but it was a good poach. Ciaran Parker will be disappointed with his clear out. He should be burying Deegan there.

Burkie1203

Buer wrote: »

I was one of them. However, when watching back you can clearly see that Deegan released for a split second as assist tackler before clamping on. He didn't do the exaggerated effort of throwing his hands in the air but he did break contact.

He's still slightly fortunate given how risky it was to go for it and the circumstances but it was a good poach. Ciaran Parker will be disappointed with his clear out. He should be burying Deegan there.

It was near identical to one Stander did in first half and got a penalty for. Very least the ref was consistent

Clegg

Something I've noticed over the last few Leinster/Munster games is how well Leinster's backrow have coped with their opposite numbers. Obviously the performance of their respective tight fives plays a huge part, but different combinations of backrows have played for Leinster against Munster have generally come out on top.

I don't doubt the pedigree of Stander and PoM. They start for Ireland for a reason. But Leinster seem to have worked them out.

Burkie1203

Clegg wrote: »

Something I've noticed over the last few Leinster/Munster games is how well Leinster's backrow have coped with their opposite numbers. Obviously the performance of their respective tight fives plays a huge part, but different combinations of backrows have played for Leinster against Munster have generally come out on top.

I don't doubt the pedigree of Stander and PoM. They start for Ireland for a reason. But Leinster seem to have worked them out.

Stander fights for every inch and it seems to be Leinsters gameplay to allow him make a few yards but hold him up. In Aviva in 2016 he made one great carry from halfway line to 10m line. But the ball took forever to come back. By the time Munster got the ball wide they were back on the halfway line and going backwards.

Neil3030

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Stander fights for every inch and it seems to be Leinsters gameplay to allow him make a few yards but hold him up. In Aviva in 2016 he made one great carry from halfway line to 10m line. But the ball took forever to come back. By the time Munster got the ball wide they were back on the halfway line and going backwards.

Australia took a similar approach to Argentina in the semi-final of the last world cup; Argentina made plenty of linebreaks and gained a tonne of metres, but Aussies had Hooper, Fardy, Pocock etc ready to pounce on isolated runners for turnovers.

arsebiscuits1

Buer wrote: »

I was one of them. However, when watching back you can clearly see that Deegan released for a split second as assist tackler before clamping on. He didn't do the exaggerated effort of throwing his hands in the air but he did break contact.

He's still slightly fortunate given how risky it was to go for it and the circumstances but it was a good poach. Ciaran Parker will be disappointed with his clear out. He should be burying Deegan there.

It does seem to be a lottery at times. To be fair. The ref was right beside Deegan and I'm sure he would have released if instructed to do so.

I don't care if it's past 80 and you don't think they'll attempt a jackal though. Sending 1 man to clear a ruck is stupid. Eddie Jones was rightly ridiculed during the 6N when he said it would be enough.

aloooof

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

It does seem to be a lottery at times. To be fair. The ref was right beside Deegan and I'm sure he would have released if instructed to do so.

I don't care if it's past 80 and you don't think they'll attempt a jackal though. Sending 1 man to clear a ruck is stupid. Eddie Jones was rightly ridiculed during the 6N when he said it would be enough.

I think Murray was expecting the penalty to come so that's why he stayed out of it. (Parker should have done a better job tho, and obviously you don't want your SH having to ruck too often).

arsebiscuits1

aloooof wrote: »

I think Murray was expecting the penalty to come so that's why he stayed out of it. (Parker should have done a better job tho, and obviously you don't want your SH having to ruck too often).

I agree, I also don't think a SH should have to cleanout. Especially not Murray who is integral to the Munster game plan. He's no use at the bottom of a ruck. But Kleyn being 5 seconds late to the party just poor.

Christy42

aloooof wrote: »

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

It does seem to be a lottery at times. To be fair. The ref was right beside Deegan and I'm sure he would have released if instructed to do so.

I don't care if it's past 80 and you don't think they'll attempt a jackal though. Sending 1 man to clear a ruck is stupid. Eddie Jones was rightly ridiculed during the 6N when he said it would be enough.

I think Murray was expecting the penalty to come so that's why he stayed out of it. (Parker should have done a better job tho, and obviously you don't want your SH having to ruck too often).

You would expect the ref to talk to give Deegan a warning first. Murray is normally a smart player but that one was a mistake.

To begin with it it is always a bad image when one side is not even competing at the ruck

connemara man

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

I agree, I also don't think a SH should have to cleanout. Especially not Murray who is integral to the Munster game plan. He's no use at the bottom of a ruck. But Kleyn being 5 seconds late to the party just poor.

Doesn't matter really how integral he is if the ball is being turned over in front of him. Securing your own ball is the only thing the first person arriving should be thinking.

Then your pack can pick and go to get you back into the game

Herpes Free Since03

How many weeks ban do we think Kleyn is going to get in his citing?

Burkie1203

Herpes Free Since03 wrote: »

How many weeks ban do we think Kleyn is going to get in his citing?

About as long as Furlong will for his illegal clearout

Herpes Free Since03

Herpes Free Since03 wrote: »

How many weeks ban do we think Kleyn is going to get in his citing?

That's a good point actually - I presume there has been no citing so I'll put my hands up and say I was wrong. I was certain he'd be in trouble over that but I guess the citing commissioner was happy with the challenge.

Burkie1203

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That's a good point actually - I presume there has been no citing so I'll put my hands up and say I was wrong. I was certain he'd be in trouble over that but I guess the citing commissioner was happy with the challenge.

Or else they felt YC was adequate.

Burkie1203

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Or else they felt YC was adequate.

Maybe! But I thought it was a clear red and ban. It changes the expected standard, Cian Healy wouldn't have been banned earlier this season if this was the threshold so I guess we'll see more head first clear outs!

Herpes Free Since03

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Or else they felt YC was adequate.

Really?! Because some of the posters here suggested he went in to do damage....I do laugh when certain sections accuse Munster fans of hyperbole....pot and kettle my dears

Herpes Free Since03

Herpes Free Since03 wrote: »

Really?! Because some of the posters here suggested he went in to do damage....I do laugh when certain sections accuse Munster fans of hyperbole....pot and kettle my dears

Of course he went in to do damage, they all hit as hard as they can every time they can. Was he looking to knock Ross Byrne out? Definitely not in my opinion but he was looking to have a big impact on the opposition play maker and he ended up making what I thought at the time was reckless contact.

Herpes Free Since03

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Of course he went in to do damage, they all hit as hard as they can every time they can. Was he looking to knock Ross Byrne out? Definitely not in my opinion but he was looking to have a big impact on the opposition play maker and he ended up making what I thought at the time was reckless contact.

A deliberate act to hurt a player?

Herpes Free Since03

Herpes Free Since03 wrote: »

A deliberate act to hurt a player?

Yes, rugby players deliberately try and hurt other rugby players in every single collision.

Not injure, but absolutely make the hit count.

Herpes Free Since03

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes, rugby players deliberately try and hurt other rugby players in every single collision.

Not injure, but absolutely make the hit count.

The tone of some on here was that it was a deliberate act...and not your definition as you well know

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, rugby players deliberately try and hurt other rugby players in every single collision.

Not injure, but absolutely make the hit count.

And Jiffy has been advocating that kind of approach for Scarlets to target Sexton:

Every time Sexton gets the ball put him on the deck. Even if he’s passed and it’s a little bit late put him on the deck all the time. He’s the key and the man who orchestrates everything. He runs the show, gets the ball in his hands on so many occasions. Once he passes you don’t have to be really late because he does play flat and takes the hits. Once he takes it, if you’ve a chance to have a shot on him, put a shot on him put him on the floor and you stay on top of him for a couple of seconds. And when you’ve got the ball run over him and target him because he likes a tackle.