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Atheist voting No [See mod note in OP]

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Comments

  • #332
    Pete29
    Registered Users Posts: 224 ✭✭Pete29


    Overheal wrote: »
    Sex should only be performed to achieve procreation?

    I didn't say that. The biological function of sex should be recognized and respected. We shouldn't treat our reproductive organs as mere sex toys for our personal pleasure and treat any reproductive consequences as an unforeseeable punishment from the ether.

    We need to accept the fact that when we choose to have sex we're not just choosing pleasure, but all the possibilities that come with it. Sex is a high reward high risk business. We're responsible for any illness we contract, any hearts we break, or any human lives we conceive.


  • #333
    Sintend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭Sintend


    Overheal wrote: »
    Where is this choice if you are raped?
    Now because I've debunked your other point you've moved onto cases of rape. Fine I'm open to debate this. In cases of rape I believe that the perpitrator of this heinous crime should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. However the child has committed no crime so why should the child pay the price with its life? Terminating the child in this instance will not undo the act committed nor do I believe that it would aid the womans mental health in this scenario. The woman also has the option to put the child up for adoption if she does not have the capacity (economic or otherwise) to raise the child. She can choose between open and closed adoption meaning she can choose to still be in the childs life or she can choose to have no contact whatsoever after adoption has taken place.


  • #334
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 83,834 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Pete29 wrote: »
    I didn't say that. The biological function of sex should be recognized and respected. We shouldn't treat our reproductive organs as mere sex toys for our personal pleasure and treat any reproductive consequences as an unforeseeable punishment from the ether.

    We need to accept the fact that when we choose to have sex we're not just choosing pleasure, but all the possibilities that come with it. Sex is a high reward high risk business. We're responsible for any illness we contract, any hearts we break, or any human lives we conceive.

    Then, why permit the Morning After Pill? There seems to be an understanding that there is a period of time during which a woman should be able to terminate a pregnancy before it goes too far. 12 weeks seems like ample time to confirm a pregnancy and make this decision? Whereas the MAP is a shot in the dark, doesn't always work, and isn't harmless on the body.


  • #335
    Pete29
    Registered Users Posts: 224 ✭✭Pete29


    Overheal wrote: »
    Where is this choice if you are raped?

    The vast majority of unwanted pregnancies are result of consensual sex. There is also the morning after pill which I have no objection to. The government wants to introduce a liberal abortion regime for any reason up 12 weeks and on vague mental/physical health grounds up to 6 months. This is what they want to introduce if the 8th is repealed.

    Public policy should reflect that vast majority of society, not a tiny percentage.


  • #336
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 83,834 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Sintend wrote: »
    Now because I've debunked your other point you've moved onto cases of rape.
    Are you celibate?


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  • #337
    Sintend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭Sintend


    Overheal wrote: »
    Are you celibate?
    Yes actually I'm a virgin as I will not risk having a child knowing that I don't currently have the means to support it. I feel that is the responsible thing to do.


  • #338
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 83,834 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Sintend wrote: »
    Now because I've debunked your other point you've moved onto cases of rape. Fine I'm open to debate this. In cases of rape I believe that the perpitrator of this heinous crime should be punished to the fullest extent of the law. However the child has committed no crime so why should the child pay the price with its life? Terminating the child in this instance will not undo the act committed nor do I believe that it would aid the womans mental health in this scenario. The woman also has the option to put the child up for adoption if she does not have the capacity (economic of otherwise) to raise the child. She can choose between open and closed adoption meaning she can choose to still be in the childs life or she can choose to have no contact whatsoever after adoption has taken place.

    A friend or family member is most likely to be the perpetrator in a rape case.

    So say your daughter gets pregnant with your brother's child, and will give birth to your grandson/nephew hybrid. This is an acceptable outcome?

    To me, that is conception that should never have happened. Why should the rapist get the satisfaction of spreading his seed while the woman receives the burden of care?


  • #339
    Sintend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭Sintend


    Overheal wrote: »
    A friend or family member is most likely to be the perpetrator in a rape case.

    So say your daughter gets pregnant with your brother's child, and will give birth to your grandson/nephew hybrid. This is an acceptable outcome?

    To me, that is conception that should never have happened. Why should the rapist get the satisfaction of spreading his seed while the woman receives the burden of care?
    The woman only has the burden of care so long as she chooses to raise the child. As I have said adoption is a perfectly acceptable option in this day and age. There are people who wish dearly to have children but cannot due to fertility issues who would have no issue in adopting a child and raising it as their own.


  • #340
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 83,834 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Sintend wrote: »
    The woman only has the burden of care so long as she chooses to raise the child. As I have said adoption is a perfectly acceptable option in this day and age. There are people who wish dearly to have children but cannot due to fertility issues who would have no issue in adopting a child and raising it as their own.

    Really? https://www.aai.gov.ie/images/General-Statistics-2017---Jan-to-Dec.pdf

    Last year Ireland finalized all of 79 adoptions. Plus to put up a child for adoption Im pretty sure you need multiple parties to consent (mother, father, all eligible guardians) and they're not going to grant this option if you already have children, eg. if you already have 5 children and become pregnant with a 6th, you'd have to give up all 6 children for adoption afaik.


  • #341
    Sintend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭Sintend


    Overheal wrote: »
    Really? https://www.aai.gov.ie/images/General-Statistics-2017---Jan-to-Dec.pdf

    Last year Ireland finalized all of 79 adoptions. Plus to put up a child for adoption Im pretty sure you need multiple parties to consent (mother, father, all eligible guardians) and they're not going to grant this option if you already have children, eg. if you already have 5 children and become pregnant with a 6th, you'd have to give up all 6 children for adoption afaik.
    Yes that is the figures for finalised adoptions but that doesn't take into account other family members accepting the child to raise as their own such as grandparents, aunts, uncles cousins etc. Generally in these situations family will step in to lend support to the woman. In 2017 there were 655 reported rapes of males and females in Ireland. Even including males in these figures it is easy to see how adoption would be able to cater for this along with family support and counselling. Once a life has been ended there is no going back and that is why there is such a high suicide rate among women who've chosen to have an abortion.


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  • #342
    Wrongway1985
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,383 ✭✭✭Wrongway1985


    Pete29 wrote: »
    Nope. You're clearly refusing to see the causal relationship between your actions and the consequences you can possibly create.

    What is the main biological function of sex? Hate to burst your ego centric, hedonism bubble, but it's for procreation. Biological fact. If you disagree read a book. The fact it's enjoyable doesn't remove the responsibility you have.

    Most people are aware (poor sex ed aside) and take precaution but contraception such as the pill for instance has 9% failure rate that means 9 in 100 women may become pregnant. Responsible people but same consequences set by your judgement!

    It's the main biblical reason is sex for procreation alright, some people don't subscribe to that.

    What you are saying is only gay people should engage in sexual activity otherwise abstain,anal or choose to play russian roulette with pregnancy?

    The fact it's the main biological reason doesn't make it compulsory to procreate. You striving for women to remain pregnant no matter what the circumstances is a very cruel and deplorable stance. That decision should be hers.

    So me as a man answer me this I consented to sex which led to someone being impregnated. What do I have to endure should I be forced to stick around for this child? Can I not leave the child or is it just that the woman must proceed at all costs despite potentially being unwilling??


  • #343
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Sintend wrote: »
    Overheal wrote: »
    A friend or family member is most likely to be the perpetrator in a rape case.

    So say your daughter gets pregnant with your brother's child, and will give birth to your grandson/nephew hybrid. This is an acceptable outcome?

    To me, that is conception that should never have happened. Why should the rapist get the satisfaction of spreading his seed while the woman receives the burden of care?
    The woman only has the burden of care so long as she chooses to raise the child. As I have said adoption is a perfectly acceptable option in this day and age. There are people who wish dearly to have children but cannot due to fertility issues who would have no issue in adopting a child and raising it as their own.

    Even if we ignore the fact you want to force women to be pregnant against their will, can you say how many children you have adopted or are willing to adopt? We don't have the resources in this country to deal with thousands of additional children in need. And I say that as the mother of a little boy worth a congenial birth anomaly who has needed a lot of medical care. The service in Ireland are **** beyond belief.

    By the way, the Adoption Rights Alliance fully supports repeal.

    Another question: are you in favour of forced organ donation? Here is a case in which many lives can be saved but a person's bodily integrity, even if the person is dead, trumps the other person's life.


  • #344
    Sintend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭Sintend


    Macha wrote: »
    Even if we ignore the fact you want to force women to be pregnant against their will, can you say how many children you have adopted or are willing to adopt? We don't have the resources in this country to deal with thousands of additional children in need. And I say that as the mother of a little boy worth a congenial birth anomaly who has needed a lot of medical care. The service in Ireland are **** beyond belief.

    By the way, the Adoption Rights Alliance fully supports repeal.

    Another question: are you in favour of forced organ donation? Here is a case in which many lives can be saved but a person's bodily integrity, even if the person is dead, trumps the other person's life.
    The current situation in this country with regards organ donations is that of automatic opt-in. If you do not wish to donate your organs in the event of your death then you must opt-out of it. I would be fully willing to fight for better services for mothers and fathers in this country but even so I do not believe that poor services should mean the deaths of innocent lives. People in Ireland are far better off now than they were in the past my grandparents for instance managed to raise 20 children on one income. They never complained about having 20 children as they viewed them as precious individuals no matter the circumstances of the birth. Actually my grandmother gave birth to 22 children but 20 survived. Ireland is still a country scarred by genocide as it is the only country on earth that has less population now than it did 170 years ago. It boils down to the ethical questions of: do you believe that abortion is good or do you believe that abortion is bad? Do you believe that abortion is fair or do you believe that abortion is inherently unfair? Purely from an ethics standpoint only one conclusion can be drawn that abortion is unfair as it denies the child the right to life, a right that was afforded to all those who came before but will be denied to all those who come after.


  • #345
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,725 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Human life is not autonomous at the point of gestation. In fact its parasitic up until the point of birth.

    The right of that parasitic fetus cannot supercede the right of the mother, unless you view women as reproduction vessels. Their rights cannot even be equal as the parasitic relationship is not equal. The fetus cannot have more mothers, whereas the mother can have more fetuses.

    The 12 week limit is very reasonable in this referendum case.

    Vote yes for Women to have control over their own bodies.


  • #346
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 83,834 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Sintend wrote: »
    Ireland is still a country scarred by genocide as it is the only country on earth that has less population now than it did 170 years ago.
    Come again?


  • #347
    Sintend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭Sintend


    Overheal wrote: »
    Come again?
    The famine is news to you is it? The mass genocide of the Irish people by the British and forced emigration. It took 120 year for Ireland's population to stop declining after the famine. Reaching a low of 2.82 million in 1961 down from a high of 6.53 million in 1841. The current population of Ireland is 4.76 million. If you don't know this maybe you should look up the history of Ireland it must be difficult for an American to understand.


  • #348
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Sintend wrote:
    The current situation in this country with regards organ donations is that of automatic opt-in. If you do not wish to donate your organs in the event of your death then you must opt-out of it.

    Unless you are living somewhere other than Ireland, there is no automatic opt in here.


  • #349
    Sintend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭Sintend


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    Unless you are living somewhere other than Ireland, there is no automatic opt in here.
    http://theliberal.ie/opt-in-or-opt-out-all-irish-citizens-to-become-automatic-organ-donors-under-new-laws-to-be-introduced-next-year/If you don't believe me maybe you'll believe a news source favourable to your cause. I have a long memory when it comes to these things.


  • #350
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 83,834 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Sintend wrote: »
    The famine is news to you is it? The mass genocide of the Irish people by the British and forced emigration. It took 120 year for Ireland's population to stop declining after the famine. Reaching a low of 2.82 million in 1961 down from a high of 6.53 million in 1841. The current population of Ireland is 4.76 million. If you don't know this maybe you should look up the history of Ireland it must be difficult for an American to understand.
    You must think you know where I went to school or something. Yes I’m well aware of the famine, though it’s always surprising to me to hear extremists label it a genocide. Much less a mass genocide. But this is your reasoning for why women need to be forced to keep their babies? Seems pretty weak to me.


  • #351
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 83,834 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Sintend wrote: »
    http://theliberal.ie/opt-in-or-opt-out-all-irish-citizens-to-become-automatic-organ-donors-under-new-laws-to-be-introduced-next-year/If you don't believe me maybe you'll believe a news source favourable to your cause. I have a long memory when it comes to these things.

    It’s 2018. Which law brought this in? The name of the Act? Date? Link in the Irish statutes book? Vote record?


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  • #352
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Pete29 wrote: »
    I didn't say that. The biological function of sex should be recognized and respected. We shouldn't treat our reproductive organs as mere sex toys for our personal pleasure and treat any reproductive consequences as an unforeseeable punishment from the ether.

    We need to accept the fact that when we choose to have sex we're not just choosing pleasure, but all the possibilities that come with it. Sex is a high reward high risk business. We're responsible for any illness we contract, any hearts we break, or any human lives we conceive.

    This sounds like something straight out of a school religion book.
    You may not be Catholic now, but it's clearly very hard to get rid of the deep seated beliefs that were put there in your youth.


  • #353
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,725 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Sintend wrote: »
    http://theliberal.ie/opt-in-or-opt-out-all-irish-citizens-to-become-automatic-organ-donors-under-new-laws-to-be-introduced-next-year/If you don't believe me maybe you'll believe a news source favourable to your cause. I have a long memory when it comes to these things.

    Ireland doesn't have an opt out organ doner policy currently???

    https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/dead-or-alive-a-simple-guide-to-organ-donation-1.3431668?mode=amp


  • #354
    Sintend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭Sintend


    Overheal wrote: »
    You must think you know where I went to school or something. Yes I’m well aware of the famine, though it’s always surprising to me to hear extremists label it a genocide. Much less a mass genocide. But this is your reasoning for why women need to be forced to keep their babies? Seems pretty weak to me.
    South Carolina is as good a guess as any! Don't you have a planned parenthood to go to anyway, I've heard great things about them recently!


  • #355
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Sintend wrote: »
    that is why there is such a high suicide rate among women who've chosen to have an abortion.

    Where exactly are you getting this from?


  • #356
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 83,834 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Sintend wrote: »
    South Carolina is as good a guess as any! Don't you have a planned parenthood to go to anyway, I've heard great things about them recently!

    Oh, slain! You got me! Secret secrets uncovered! Wounded! Touché - or did I attend school in Ennis and some college in Carlow? Guess you’ll never know, but it didn’t stop you from making an ass of yourself with assumptions about who you were speaking to or why he’s been on an Irish website for 12 bloody years...


  • #357
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Sintend wrote: »
    The current situation in this country with regards organ donations is that of automatic opt-in. If you do not wish to donate your organs in the event of your death then you must opt-out of it.

    What country are you talking about?


  • #358
    Sintend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭Sintend


    Overheal wrote: »
    Oh, slain! You got me! Secret secrets uncovered! Wounded! Touché - or did I attend school in Ennis and some college in Carlow? Guess you’ll never know, but it didn’t stop you from making an ass of yourself with assumptions about who you were speaking to or why he’s been on an Irish website for 12 bloody years...
    Typically when people say they attended college they proudly display it. "Some college in Carlow" oddly I've never heard of it?


  • #359
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 83,834 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Sintend wrote: »
    Typically when people say they attended college they proudly display it. "Some college in Carlow" oddly I've never heard of it?

    IT Carlow in Carlow? Damn, did they not reach Harvard status yet? But don’t make this all about me lad. I think we’ve had enough fun with this flailing attempt of yours at argumentum ad hominem. I’m more interested to hear if you understand that Ireland is an opt-in System still, and the political gesturings and rumors of yesteryear do not signed legislation make? Also wouldn’t mind some more elaboration on whether you are citing The Famine as a reason to deny women abortions in 2018.


  • #360
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 83,834 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Sintend wrote: »
    The annual suicide rate from 1987-1994 per 100,000 women in Finland, aged 15-49 was:

    All women in the general population: 11.3

    Women who had given birth in prior 12 mos: 5.9

    Women who had a miscarriage in prior 12 mos: 18.1

    Women who had an abortion in prior 12 mos: 34.7

    Statistics such as these can be seen in any country that has legalised abortion. I never gotten a good explanation as to why that is from any repealer! And this is the last time I will be getting information for ye. If you want any more information there's a free thing called Google I'm sure you've heard of it! Educate yourselves!

    Citation for these numbers, please? Burden of proof is yours my man


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  • #361
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 83,834 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Sintend wrote: »
    You make it seem like I have a problem with organ donations. I do not!Why would I care about what happens to my organs after I'm dead, it's not like I'll need them any longer. If they can be used to save others then great, if not its no big deal. I wont worry about it!

    That’s not what I said or implied. I simply challenged your claim that Ireland was an opt-out country. I have seen no evidence, particularly in law, to assert that it is. Just some clickbait on some newspapers that it was in the works for the end of 2018, but have not seen any proposed legislation or heard of any introduced to the Dail yet. Care to enlighten? Or retract?


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