Atheist voting No [See mod note in OP]

Overheal

bubblypop wrote: »

I know a guy who many years after his vasectomy, got his second wife pregnant, with twins.
Nothing is 100%

Bingo.



Which is why I’d love antiskeptic to back up his bs about discovering some combination of contraceptives that gets people to 99.99% effectiveness. Will wait.

blanch152

Junadl wrote: »

No obviously we all have sex for enjoyment, it is one of the greatest pleasures in life. However we must be aware of what we are doing and that what we are doing has an effect.

Would it not make sense to have tubes tied to avoid the risk of pregnancy?

Unintended consequences.

If the referendum is a YES, perhaps the pro-life movement will start a campaign for more anal sex to ensure that there are less babies aborted. That would be interesting.

LirW

Junadl wrote: »

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2110729-male-contraceptive-injection-works-but-side-effects-halt-trial/

Hadn't even thought of this. If a woman doesn't want kids have yourself sterilised. If a man doesn't want kids same applies. Get it done privately if you're saying it's not generally done before a certain age. That would be perfect as then you wouldn't make an innocent life.

Even privately you won't find a doctor who does it under 35. In pretty every other country in Europe this age restriction applies. There are a lot of women who want to get it done, are willing to pay privately for it and get turned down. So welcome back from cloud cuckoo land.

And what about the rest? That having sexual interaction with your partner is a vital part of a relationship? Are we going to ignore that completely?

oscarBravo

Junadl wrote: »

🤔

We are talking about women and men who willingly engage in sex and don't want to take responsibility for their actions. Nobody has mentioned rape here.

It's dizzying, trying to keep up with the moving goalposts.

It's being argued that people who don't want children shouldn't have sex; in other words, if people only accepted responsibility for their wicked lusts, abortion wouldn't be necessary.

So, let's talk about rape. Are you going to argue that people who don't want children shouldn't get themselves raped?

Overheal

Junadl wrote: »

🀔

We are talking about women and men who willingly engage in sex and don't want to take responsibility for their actions. Nobody has mentioned rape here.

Then you’re playing with special goalposts.

Why should people who can’t take responsibility for sex be assumed to take responsibility for children?

Charles Babbage

LirW wrote: »

Even privately you won't find a doctor who does it under 35. In pretty every other country in Europe this age restriction applies. There are a lot of women who want to get it done, are willing to pay privately for it and get turned down. So welcome back from cloud cuckoo land.

And what about the rest? That having sexual interaction with your partner is a vital part of a relationship? Are we going to ignore that completely?

Is aborting the children of that interaction a vital part of that partnership?

Overheal

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Is aborting the children of that interaction a vital part of that partnership?

If you’re already 5 kids deep it might be!

Junadl

Instead of putting your energy into the rights to kill your offspring, how about using that energy to start a campaign demanding rights to be sterilised at a young age if you wish. Your body your choice. If you want your tubes tied it's your right.

oscarBravo

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Is aborting the children of that interaction a vital part of that partnership?

Nobody's aborting children. If you're someone who believes that a pre-12-week foetus is a child, you're probably not going to choose an abortion, and the good news is you will never be forced to.

oscarBravo

Junadl wrote: »

Instead of putting your energy into the rights to kill your offspring, how about using that energy to start a campaign demanding rights to be sterilised at a young age if you wish. Your body your choice. If you want your tubes tied it's your right.

That's very generous of you, but how does it deal with an unwanted pregnancy from a rape?

LirW

No, this is why people use contraception. Still, no contraception, not even a vasectomy or a tubal ligation is 100% safe. The percentage is minimal but not off the table, so it would be a bad accident and something a couple needs to deal with. If a couple doesn't wish/cannot have children for whatever reason, it's a problem they individually need to deal with. Why should they be forced into parenthood when they genuinely did everything they can to prevent that? There are by the way many couples that initially aren't in favour of the child but decide to keep it. Abortions will always happen with illegal pills or medical cocktails you can google, it's a question of wanting them to happen in a safe environment in Ireland for all women who need to avail of them.

Why is everyone constantly pretending that abortions shouldn't happen, therefore they don't happen in Ireland?

Junadl

bubblypop wrote: »

Doctors won't even talk about it!
Might change my mind according to them.......

Well why don't you sue them then? If a man can undergo an op to become a woman, then surely you should have the right to have your tubes tied.

Junadl

oscarBravo wrote: »

That's very generous of you, but how does it deal with an unwanted pregnancy from a rape?

Instead of side stepping my questions and repeating the word rape, can you answer what I've said? Why don't you start a 'Get myself sterilised' campaign?

Overheal

Junadl wrote: »

Instead of putting your energy into the rights to kill your offspring, how about using that energy to start a campaign demanding rights to be sterilised at a young age if you wish. Your body your choice. If you want your tubes tied it's your right.

Instead of putting your energy into forcing rape victims and “sluts” to have children they don’t want how abojt using that energy to start a campaign demanding serious overhauls of Ireland’s grossly inadequate adoption scheme?

:rolleyes:

oscarBravo

Junadl wrote: »

Instead of side stepping my questions and repeating the word rape, can you answer what I've said? Why don't you start a 'Get myself sterilised' campaign?

I don't want to be sterilised. Why are you avoiding the question of an unwanted pregnancy resulting from a rape?

Overheal

Junadl wrote: »

Instead of side stepping my questions and repeating the word rape, can you answer what I've said? Why don't you start a 'Get myself sterilised' campaign?

Why don’t you start an end rape campaign?

Why is it okay for you to sidestep but not anyone else?

LirW

Or what about the women that live in abusive relationships and have their birth control taken away, are being forced into non-consensual sex and get pregnant, when the woman knows that this is a volatile and horrendous environment to bring a child into?
For everyone pretending this doesn't happen, have a read of the annual women's aid report. It's absolutely shocking and these are only the cases where the women come forward.

Overheal

Junadl wrote: »

Well why don't you sue them then? If a man can undergo an op to become a woman, then surely you should have the right to have your tubes tied.

Sue them for what? They are under no legal obligation to perform the procedure. Neither will any doctor be forced to perform abortions.

You’re not thinking this through very well.

Junadl

Overheal wrote: »

Sue them for what? They are under no legal obligation to perform the procedure. Neither will any doctor be forced to perform abortions.

You’re not thinking this through very well.

Yet a doctor will be legally forced to point a woman who wants an abortion in the direction of someone who will end her babys life. Even against their own beliefs.

Junadl

http://www.sinnfein.ie/ga/contents/35316

Read here about the cuts to rape support. Why don't you ask the government why they have done this instead of talking bollocks on an internet forum?

Junadl

Junadl wrote: »

Well why don't you sue them then? If a man can undergo an op to become a woman, then surely you should have the right to have your tubes tied.

Sue them for what exactly?

Junadl

LirW wrote: »

Or what about the women that live in abusive relationships and have their birth control taken away, are being forced into non-consensual sex and get pregnant, when the woman knows that this is a volatile and horrendous environment to bring a child into?
For everyone pretending this doesn't happen, have a read of the annual women's aid report. It's absolutely shocking and these are only the cases where the women come forward.

What about women who will be raped and made to abort their child by these sickos? This will be a win for them. Or even a parent who is abusing their child, surely it will be great for them to force abortion.

Mrsmum

I was just googling contraceptive effectiveness there and on the NHS website they name all the various female types and opposite every single type, they claim is 99% effective. I must say I was very surprised, not least because on abortion threads, so many women have failed contraception. Now they do make a distinction between 'perfect use' and 'typical use' where effectiveness falls to about 91%. So really it's not the contraceptive that's usually at fault but the user and as I'm sure we all agree that contraception is better than abortion we badly need to educate people on how to use them properly, starting with those still in school. From what I've heard, they are on top of their game in this regard in the Nordic countries.

LirW

Junadl wrote: »

What about women who will be raped and made to abort their child by these sickos? This will be a win for them. All even a parent who is abusing their child, surely it will be great for them to force abortion.

So because there are some messed up people out there we make something inaccessible for all women that would be in genuine need of it like domestic abuse or rape victims?
It won't be a win for the women forced to carry a child into an abusive family. I know a case personally where a woman was impregnated by her abusive husband, he continued beating the everliving crap out of her, just sparing her tummy.
Should this women be refused to have a choice?

SusieBlue

Mrsmum wrote: »

I was just googling contraceptive effectiveness there and on the NHS website they name all the various female types and opposite every single type, they claim is 99% effective. I must say I was very surprised, not least because on abortion threads, so many women have failed contraception. Now they do make a distinction between 'perfect use' and 'typical use' where effectiveness falls to about 91%. So really it's not the contraceptive that's usually at fault but the user and as I'm sure we all agree that contraception is better than abortion we badly need to educate people on how to use them properly, starting with those still in school. From what I've heard, they are on top of their game in this regard in the Nordic countries.

It isn’t just carelessness with the typical use though.
I’ve missed more than a couple of pills at some point or another over the years, the reasons varied from dropping one down the sink, to using antibiotics with them, to having a vomiting bug, meaning I threw up the tablet.
Now I obviously had the cop on to double up or abstain for the rest of the month after that happened, and that’s where your point about education comes into it, which I think is fair.

I just wanted to show it isn’t always a case of being too lazy to be bothered taking the tablet. Life is unpredictable and stuff like that happens every single day.

If 91% is the typical use, that means 9% of women will get pregnant every year.
The average fertility span for a woman is, say, 30 years.
So if a woman is using the pill for 30 years, and 9% of women get pregnant on it each year, the odds of her falling pregnant while using contraception at some point of her life isn’t all that small any more.

Junadl

Overheal wrote: »

Instead of putting your energy into forcing rape victims and “sluts” to have children they don’t want how abojt using that energy to start a campaign demanding serious overhauls of Ireland’s grossly inadequate adoption scheme?

:rolleyes:

You have called people sluts not me. How about taking responsibility for your actions? Instead of having to kill your unborn child.

Mrsmum

Mrsmum wrote: »

. From what I've heard, they are on top of their game in this regard in the Nordic countries.

They still have legalised abortion in Nordic countries.

SusieBlue

Junadl wrote: »

You have called people sluts not me. How about taking responsibility for your actions? Instead of having to kill your unborn child.

For some people having an abortion is taking responsibility.
There is no benefit in forcing an unwilling woman who does not want a child into motherhood, it certainly doesn’t have the best interests at heart.

Junadl

LirW wrote: »

So because there are some messed up people out there we make something inaccessible for all women that would be in genuine need of it like domestic abuse or rape victims?
It won't be a win for the women forced to carry a child into an abusive family. I know a case personally where a woman was impregnated by her abusive husband, he continued beating the everliving crap out of her, just sparing her tummy.
Should this women be refused to have a choice?

Don't. I have been in abusive relationship myself so please stfu. The man is the one who should suffer not the mother and her child. Desperate help needs to be given to women in those situations as until you're in it you don't realise what it's truly like.

Women need support, love and therapy in those situations. Not abortion.

SusieBlue

Junadl wrote: »

Don't. I have been in abusive relationship myself so please stfu. The man is the one who should suffer not the mother and her child. Desperate help needs to be given to women in those situations as until you're in it you don't realise what it's truly like.

Women need support, love and therapy in those situations. Not abortion.

Women in that situation need a choice. It not being a choice you would make or approve of does not making it a wrong one.

You can’t claim to speak for every woman who has experienced domestic abuse.
I’m sorry for what you went through, but it isn’t a legitimate reason to take choice away from women who desperately need it.