Atheist voting No [See mod note in OP]

Mrsmum

bubblypop wrote: »

They still have legalised abortion in Nordic countries.

I know that. No harm in keeping it to a minimum though, is there ?

Overheal

Junadl wrote: »

Yet a doctor will be legally forced to point a woman who wants an abortion in the direction of someone who will end her babys life. Even against their own beliefs.

Being compelled to provide honest disclosure to a patient, and forcing him to carry out the procedure, aren't even in the same country as each other.

oscarBravo

Junadl wrote: »

How about taking responsibility for your actions? Instead of having to kill your unborn child.

How does "taking responsibility for your actions" work for a rape victim?

LirW

Junadl wrote: »

Don't. I have been in abusive relationship myself so please stfu. The man is the one who should suffer not the mother and her child. Desperate help needs to be given to women in those situations as until you're in it you don't realise what it's truly like.

Women need support, love and therapy in those situations. Not abortion.

Women need a choice for themselves. There is no one size fits all solution on abuse. Maybe it would have never been an option for you but you can't speak for all other women out there experiencing abuse from their partners.

Why does it seem so difficult for many to understand that the issue isn't as black and white as portrayed because many women experience many different circumstances we've never been in or could never understand.

Junadl

SusieBlue wrote: »

Women in that situation need a choice. It not being a choice you would make or approve of does not making it a wrong one.

You can’t claim to speak for every woman who has experienced domestic abuse.
I’m sorry for what you went through, but it isn’t a legitimate reason to take choice away from women who desperately need it.

You can't speak for all abused women and assume they want to terminate their baby. I find the people who want to have sex and not take responsibility are the people who want to use abuse victims to push their own agenda. Do you guys really care about these women, do you ever give them a second thought normally?!!!

Overheal

Junadl wrote: »

What about women who will be raped and made to abort their child by these sickos? This will be a win for them. Or even a parent who is abusing their child, surely it will be great for them to force abortion.

Made to abort by whom?!

If for some reason a woman chose to keep her pregnancy as a result of rape, nobody will stop her.

Overheal

Junadl wrote: »

You have called people sluts not me. How about taking responsibility for your actions? Instead of having to kill your unborn child.

Nobody is forcing anyone to have an abortion!

Junadl

oscarBravo wrote: »

How does "taking responsibility for your actions" work for a rape victim?

Do you ever give rape victims a second thought? Do you do anything to help those women? Do you actually give a **** about abused women?! Do you volunteer to help anyone with anything? Or are you using these people to push your own agenda?

oscarBravo

Junadl wrote: »

You can't speak for all abused women and assume they want to terminate their baby.

Nobody's assuming that! What a daft argument. The entire point of the repeal campaign is to give people a choice.

Overheal

Junadl wrote: »

You can't speak for all abused women and assume they want to terminate their baby.

Which. Is. Why. Women. Should. Have. The. Right. To. Choose.

I find the people who want to have sex and not take responsibility are the people who want to use abuse victims to push their own agenda.

What???

oscarBravo

Junadl wrote: »

Do you ever give rape victims a second thought? Do you do anything to help those women? Do you actually give a **** about abused women?! Do you volunteer to help anyone with anything? Or are you using these people to push your own agenda?

Hey, at least I want to give them a choice. But now that you've gotten that outburst out of your system: do you think that rape victims should be forced to remain pregnant against their will?

Junadl

Overheal wrote: »

Made to abort by whom?!

If for some reason a woman chose to keep her pregnancy as a result of rape, nobody will stop her.

Their abuser

LirW

Junadl wrote: »

You can't speak for all abuse women and assume they want to terminate their baby. I find the people who want to have sex and not take responsibility are the people who want to use abuse victims to push their own agenda. Do you guys really care about these women, do you ever give them a second thought normally?!!!

Yeah, I do and I actively try to help where I can (not giving away any personal details here but I'm active). There is no pushing an agenda, the issue of unwanted pregnancy or the necessity of a termination is a lot more difficult than a black and white picture painted portraying the good people that want their kids and the filthy sluts that are just fkucing around.
You might not be in the situation to ever consider that and you can't for yourself, which is fine. If I'd get pregnant again even though I take the necessary precaution I don't know if I personally could terminate either but I understand that there are many individual situations out there we will never experience or can't ever imagine. If a woman genuinely needs and wants an abortion she'll try getting it.
It's the choice though to provide them a save environment for it in Ireland. Pretending they don't happen is simply hypocritical because they do happen, either abroad (shifting the problem abroad is not a solution) or under unsafe circumstances.

Overheal

Junadl wrote: »

Their abuser

Who can already beat them or toss them down the stairs?

Next question..

Junadl

oscarBravo wrote: »

Hey, at least I want to give them a choice. But now that you've gotten that outburst out of your system: do you think that rape victims should be forced to remain pregnant against their will?

Stop using rape victims who you do not care about and most likely never give a second thought to.

Overheal

Junadl wrote: »

Stop using rape victims who you do not care about and most likely never give a second thought to.

Stop ignoring rape victims who you do not care about and most likely never give a second thought to.

oscarBravo

Junadl wrote: »

Stop using rape victims who you do not care about and most likely never give a second thought to.

"I haven't actually thought my views through so I'll feign indignance to avoid answering questions."

Junadl

Overheal wrote: »

Who can already beat them or toss them down the stairs?

Next question..

Why don't you help these women if you care about their choices? Many don't feel they have a choice to leave. They have nobody to turn to, they are abandoned and trapped. If you care about them why don't you help them? In real life.

SusieBlue

Junadl wrote: »

You can't speak for all abused women and assume they want to terminate their baby. I find the people who want to have sex and not take responsibility are the people who want to use abuse victims to push their own agenda. Do you guys really care about these women, do you ever give them a second thought normally?!!!

Stop shifting goalposts, I never said they all want or should have terminations.
I’m saying they should have a choice.
An option. An opportunity to assess their situation and make the best possible situation for the circumstances.

Which is a lot more than you’re offering - forced parenthood on the weak whim they might like it.

Junadl

Overheal wrote: »

Stop ignoring rape victims who you do not care about and most likely never give a second thought to.

I'm not ignoring them. You are using them to push an agenda. You are using victims of rape, can't you see that?!!!

Overheal

Junadl wrote: »

Why don't you help these women if you care about their choices? Many don't feel they have a choice to leave. They have nobody to turn to, they are abandoned and trapped. If you care about them why don't you help them? In real life.

You're arguing something completely out of the realm of the referendum here now.

Besides that, you have no idea what I do or what I support in regards to getting women out of abusive situations.

However, I find it funny you're argument is about abused women not feeling they have choices. Well about that...

Overheal

Junadl wrote: »

I'm not ignoring them. You are using them to push an agenda. You are using victims of rape, can't you see that?!!!

Using them how? By fighting for their right to not carry their abuser's child? You're not making much sense.

LirW

Well I think by giving them a choice not continuing a pregnancy conceived through rape they definitely do care. Jesus, it's not that they're strapped into a chair and having an abortion performed. If a woman wants to keep her child she can. If a woman wishes not to for whatever reasons out of the million different ones out there, she can avail of a safe abortion without travelling abroad or ordering pills online. That's not pushing anyone's agenda. People who are pro-choice are exactly that, they are in favour of a woman choosing for herself what steps she's going to take next if she experiences a crisis pregnancy.

AllForIt

I've always found it more congruent that atheists would be more against abortion than theists. I'm an atheist and the pertinent point is that when our bodies die, that's it. The theist believes when we die we go to heaven, thus the aborted baby will go to heaven for eternity and the worst that can happen for them is that they skipped the life on earth bit, which is hardly a big deal if that is true. Some ppl die a few years after birth or don't survive birth at all. But yes I realise a theist also believes that only God should take life away and that is why theists would be inclined to vote no no matter what arguments are made for it.

Mrsmum

Mrsmum wrote: »

I know that. No harm in keeping it to a minimum though, is there ?

Yep I agree. I have said it before, Ireland should be compared to Finland instead of Britain. Much more comparable population. I think they have around 10,000 a year in Finland.

antiskeptic

LirW wrote: »

I find it absolutely hilarious when people think that it's just an easy peasy walk in the park to abstain from sexual activity.
Are people aware that the lack of intimacy is one of the leading reasons why couples drift apart and split? The vast majority, especially in a relationship needs sex, you need it physically and mentally. The reason why people are taking contraception is mainly because they don't want to have children. Tubal ligations are pretty much non-accessible for a woman that never had children or under 35. Jesus, I was even denied having one when we talked about the C-Section of my daughter, who's my second and I got turned down by all 3 doctors I asked.
Why did I want it? Because I'm done with family planning.
Having no sex would put a serious strain on our relationship, it's a vital part of it even if it's sometimes just once in a while. I'm taking contraception because he can't get a vasectomy yet, I can't get a tubal ligation.

If the "well, take the responsibility when your contraception fails"-brigade wants to live in a society where people don't have sex, have fun, off you go an travel to parts of India or Pakistan where there's such an overload of men that can't find a woman and therefore not having sex and have a look on how heavily it impacts society as a whole.
It's not just a simple issue of don't fkuc. That doesn't work and has proven before in many societys where sex is a total taboo that it doesn't work.

Are you seriously suggesting that with all the technology and all the information at your disposal you couldnt get it together to avoid an unwanted pregnacy?



And even if you can't, you suppose a 100,000 in the UK can't, every year. Every year.

We're back to own responsibility. And the desire to introduce a.o.d. to deal with its lack.

By all means value life in the womb any way you want. Just don't be surprised when others don't want to vote for your need.

Overheal

antiskeptic wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting that with all the technology and all the information at your disposal you couldnt get it together to avoid an unwanted pregnacy?



And even if you can't, you suppose a 100,000 in the UK can't, every year. Every year.

We're back to own responsibility. And the desire to introduce a.o.d. to deal with its lack.

By all means value life in the womb any way you want. Just don't be surprised when others don't want to vote for your need.

Hi. Earlier you claimed that the combined efficacy of the pill and the male condom was 99.9%. What was your source for that?

Wrongway1985

I've honestly found myself in sadness over this whole referendum maybe weirdly enough as I'm a guy but some of the views expressed from friends of faceless women have been quite disturbing to me.

As I'm from Tipp a No vote seems very likely here hopefully the rest will pull through.

antiskeptic

oscarBravo wrote: »

It's dizzying, trying to keep up with the moving goalposts.

It's being argued that people who don't want children shouldn't have sex; in other words, if people only accepted responsibility for their wicked lusts, abortion wouldn't be necessary.

So, let's talk about rape. Are you going to argue that people who don't want children shouldn't get themselves raped?

Whats being pointed out is that 100,000 failure of contraceptive abortions p a. In the UK are indicative of an attitude which doesnt treat pregnancy avoidance as a top priorty.

Little wonder. Although people might want to avoid pregnancy to an extent, there is an exit route should the contraceptives (and your use of them)fail.

Can't we suppose that with easier access, societal acceptance, increased safety and less cost, Irish focus on pregnancy avoidance might diminish? If not, why not.

Zubeneschamali

antiskeptic wrote: »

When people decided the life in the womb hadnt equal value - obvously. Whether they fell for the trojan horse of difficult cases or simply diminished life in the womb full stop is hard to tell.

If only the former they can vote No and await a more nuanced referendum proposal.

Well, no. If anyone genuinely believed a fetus had an equal right to life with a woman, they would be campaigning against the 13th and 14th amendments. If 170,000 child murderers were walking around free in Ireland, people would be absolutely losing their minds.

But no-one really believes it, it is just part of the religious tripe that people pick up as children and kinda sorta pretend to believe later.