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Short term lets now half of Dublin rental market, anti landlord measures bite back

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    #2
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Going Airbnb for exactly that reason. (And the oodles of lovely cash). People want proper, large scale professional LL's - so be it. Rent off a REIT.


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    #3
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Anti landlord legislation? You mean easy money and lots of it


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    #4
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,945 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Irish journalists display innumeracy yet again.

    Short term lets need to be advertised every week. Long term lets are advertised when there's a chance of tenant - typically every six months or more.

    So comparing numbers of ads is totally meaningless.


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    #5
    Eod100
    Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Eod100


    handlemaster wrote: »
    https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/its-absolutely-scandalous-protesters-at-ideal-homes-exhibition-target-sponsors-tsb-over-sale-of-mortgages-to-vultures-36829774.html


    this is clearly a response to anti landlord measures coming into play. Im glad to see some landlords are taking control of their properties and ultimately futures

    Anti landlord. Lol would it be also anti landlord to see reasonably priced affordable accommodation for all ?


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    #6
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Eod100 wrote: »
    Anti landlord. Lol would it be also anti landlord to see reasonably priced affordable accommodation for all ?

    Yes - we pay our taxes same as everyone else. Why should we subsidise people?


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    #7
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    Bambi wrote: »
    Anti landlord legislation? You mean easy money and lots of it

    yea.. so your doing it so ?


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    #8
    handlemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    Eod100 wrote: »
    Anti landlord. Lol would it be also anti landlord to see reasonably priced affordable accommodation for all ?

    not at all but dont expect the private sector to pay for a social project


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    #9
    Eod100
    Registered Users Posts: 11,790 ✭✭✭✭Eod100


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    Yes - we pay our taxes same as everyone else. Why should we subsidise people?

    Who said anything about subsidising people? And that's exactly what's happening at the moment, tenants subsidising landlords through inflated rents and through state paying millions vis housing assistance payments. And idea of taxes paying for housing infrastructure is hardly a radical concept, that's what taxes are for


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    #10
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Eod100 wrote: »
    Who said anything about subsidising people? And that's exactly what's happening at the moment, tenants subsidising landlords through inflated rents and through state paying millions vis housing assistance payments. And idea of taxes paying for housing infrastructure is hardly a radical concept, that's what taxes are for

    LL's are being expected to subsidise tenants rather than charge the market rate. If the state wants social housing then it should build it.


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    #11
    CalamariFritti
    Registered Users Posts: 5,622 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    Calling not driving rent to extortionate levels 'subsidising' surely is the euphemism of the day. It's crippling an entire generation, taking advantage basically. And yes the government is complicit. It's nothing but funnelling tax money towards property owners and wrecking an entire generation of young people in the process. And yes I know the tax that is being paid back on the profits aint small either. Its a stupid circle all in the name of growth and 'the market'.

    While ethically rather crappy yes it is legal and of course thats the world we're living in. But dont be dressing it up. There is a fair bit of plain old greed involved here, too.


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    #12
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    CalamariFritti wrote: »
    Calling not driving rent to extortionate levels 'subsidising' surely is the euphemism of the day.

    If you go to sell your house should you charge the market value or let someone have it on the cheap?

    It's a moot point anyway - small time LL's are leaving the market - good luck in getting REITs to agree to rent controls.


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    #13
    kirving
    Registered Users Posts: 5,979 ✭✭✭kirving


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    CalamariFritti wrote: »
    Calling not driving rent to extortionate levels 'subsidising' surely is the euphemism of the day.

    If you go to sell your house should you charge the market value or let someone have it on the cheap?

    It's a moot point anyway - small time LL's are leaving the market - good luck in getting REITs to agree to rent controls.

    It's all very well talking about Market Rate and subsidising people, but the current level is absolutely unsustainable.

    Some landlords are in difficulty, fair enough, but others are doing extraordinarily well during to the current situation.

    The large scale investors in property aren't necessarily interested in making high profit margins. 5-10% profit, and the resulting stable economy is very attractive to banks, insurance companies, governments, ect.

    A private landlord just can't afford can't take the risk to invest in property at only 10% profit margin while big funds jump at the chance.

    Now up to the government to make the country attractive to such funds if private landlords are being driven out.


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    #14
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,524 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Eod100 wrote: »
    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    Yes - we pay our taxes same as everyone else. Why should we subsidise people?

    Who said anything about subsidising people? And that's exactly what's happening at the moment, tenants subsidising landlords through inflated rents and through state paying millions vis housing assistance payments. And idea of taxes paying for housing infrastructure is hardly a radical concept, that's what taxes are for



    And during the recession tenants had cheap rent. Swings and roundabouts.

    What this is about, is that after 6 months you have no choice but to let the tenant stay for 6 years.
    You can’t evict a bad tenant or non paying tenant. You can’t refuse HAP so are been dictated who you can trust with your substantial investments


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    #15
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,524 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    CalamariFritti wrote: »
    Calling not driving rent to extortionate levels 'subsidising' surely is the euphemism of the day. It's crippling an entire generation, taking advantage basically. And yes the government is complicit. It's nothing but funnelling tax money towards property owners and wrecking an entire generation of young people in the process. And yes I know the tax that is being paid back on the profits aint small either. Its a stupid circle all in the name of growth and 'the market'.

    While ethically rather crappy yes it is legal and of course thats the world we're living in. But dont be dressing it up. There is a fair bit of plain old greed involved here, too.
    It’s supply and demand. Blame the government and the IDA they need to ensure there adequate housing for the people they are creating jobs for. It’s not the Landlords job


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    #16
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,300 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    CalamariFritti wrote: »
    While ethically rather crappy yes it is legal and of course thats the world we're living in. But dont be dressing it up. There is a fair bit of plain old greed involved here, too.
    If the tenant stops paying, the landlord doesn't get paid rent, and can lose many months rent. The LL will also have to pay legal fees to have them evicted. If there is any damage done to the property, the tenant may pay the LL back at 5 euros a week from their social welfare, if the LL finds them when they move out.

    LL's are told to treat the house like a business. Renting it on AirBnB is treating the house like a business.


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    #17
    TSQ
    Registered Users Posts: 283 ✭✭TSQ


    Pauln90 wrote: »
    Exactly

    There is nothing easy about running an airbnb operation. After all expenses are paid I reckon I would probably get about the same amount as you would get currently renting at the top (admittedly) of today's market. But the control over who stays in your property, reviews of the tenants posted by other hosts, and the Liability that accrues to the renter for any damage done, more than outweighs the extra work involved.
    And while all this vitriol is directed at the small time landlord who does short lets, where is all the moral indignation at the granting of planning permission to institutional investors building apartments for the holiday rental market and bypassing the standards set for normal residential apartment developments. It seems it's ok for the likes of staycity to designate entire apartment blocks as holiday lets, but your small-time time landlord investing his life savings in a single property is vilified


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    #18
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Kevin Irving wrote: »
    It's all very well talking about Market Rate and subsidising people, but the current level is absolutely unsustainable.

    Some landlords are in difficulty, fair enough, but others are doing extraordinarily well during to the current situation.....

    Wasn't the article about selling off non performing loans? I don't see why its b2L specifically.
    Kevin Irving wrote: »
    The large scale investors in property aren't necessarily interested in making high profit margins. 5-10% profit, and the resulting stable economy is very attractive to banks, insurance companies, governments, ect.

    ...and yet thats exactly why the Tyrrelstown amendment was introduced...also they tend to focus on the high end, not the low end. Which kind suggests they are only interested in high profit margins.
    Kevin Irving wrote: »
    A private landlord just can't afford can't take the risk to invest in property at only 10% profit margin while big funds jump at the chance.

    Now up to the government to make the country attractive to such funds if private landlords are being driven out.

    Its more about the low tax they pay. The issue for the smaller landlords is not simply a low profit margin (if thats the case). Its the risk of big losses from no protection. Those losses are not significant for large investor and they pay less tax.

    I'm not sure how they could make the country more attractive to outside investment.


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    #19
    AfterLife
    Closed Accounts Posts: 302 ✭✭AfterLife


    I'm trying to rent a place in Dublin City centre for a month in August and there isn't really that much available. There's a lots of Airbnb's but it's very hard to find somewhere for the whole month.


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    #20
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Anyway the issue is not LL vs Tenant. Thats just a distraction.

    Its the lack of Supply.
    Government provided just 20% of its planned target of rapid-build houses by the end of last year

    Also how they figures are reported. http://www.broadsheet.ie/2018/01/16/missing-the-target/

    Yet this gets completely ignored on these forums.


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    #21
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,989 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    ted1 wrote: »
    And during the recession tenants had cheap rent. Swings and roundabouts.

    During the next recession there won't be many landlords agreeing to a rent decrease because of the current mess in the market. Why would they risk losing even more money if the government messes with the market again and again


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    #22
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,524 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Exactly, they can’t drop prices now as they are restricted to increasing them by 4%


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    #23
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Del2005 wrote: »
    During the next recession there won't be many landlords agreeing to a rent decrease because of the current mess in the market. Why would they risk losing even more money if the government messes with the market again and again
    If the market rent drops, landlords will have no choice but to drop. When a tenant can get a better deal down the road, off he goes.


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    #24
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    AfterLife wrote: »
    I'm trying to rent a place in Dublin City centre for a month in August and there isn't really that much available. There's a lots of Airbnb's but it's very hard to find somewhere for the whole month.

    What sort of a place?


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    #25
    godtabh
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    Eod100 wrote: »
    Anti landlord. Lol would it be also anti landlord to see reasonably priced affordable accommodation for all ?

    It’s not the landlords responsibility to provide this. They provide a service. If then public wants reasonably affordable accommodation get the govement provide public housing.


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    #26
    AfterLife
    Closed Accounts Posts: 302 ✭✭AfterLife


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    What sort of a place?

    1 bedroom flat. There's a few available but the prices are comical and it's the same ones advertised for the last couple of months. It would be cheaper to stay in a hotel which is probably what I will do.


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    #27
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,524 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    AfterLife wrote: »
    4ensic15 wrote: »
    What sort of a place?

    1 bedroom flat. There's a few available but the prices are comical and it's the same ones advertised for the last couple of months. It would be cheaper to stay in a hotel which is probably what I will do.
    Try one of the student accommodation places.
    UCD rent there places out during the summer as do places like apartostudent.con


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    #28
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,300 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    AfterLife wrote: »
    1 bedroom flat. There's a few available but the prices are comical and it's the same ones advertised for the last couple of months. It would be cheaper to stay in a hotel which is probably what I will do.
    I'd advise ringing the hotel, rather than doing so online if you intend to stay the month; they may be able to get you a better deal.

    I assume you've looked at the short-term rental section on Daft? http://www.daft.ie/dublin/short-term-rentals/dublin-city-centre/

    I wonder would a travel agent be able to help, as you'd be staying in a hotel, and they may have a search available to them for multiple hotels?


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    #29
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,620 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Kevin Irving wrote: »
    It's all very well talking about Market Rate and subsidising people, but the current level is absolutely unsustainable.

    Some landlords are in difficulty, fair enough, but others are doing extraordinarily well during to the current situation.

    The large scale investors in property aren't necessarily interested in making high profit margins. 5-10% profit, and the resulting stable economy is very attractive to banks, insurance companies, governments, ect.

    A private landlord just can't afford can't take the risk to invest in property at only 10% profit margin while big funds jump at the chance.

    Now up to the government to make the country attractive to such funds if private landlords are being driven out.

    In fact it is part of the price they pay for their dominance.
    High operating costs, complex and nebulous tax systems, high staff costs and massively complex and overwrought regulation, combined with paper-thin profit margins work in favour of multinationals.
    While a one man or other small-time operation cannot make a living that way and are practically being excluded from the market, a well-organised and well-staffed multinational giant has the staffing levels to deal with senseless and brainless red-tape and has the sheer business volume to turn a sufficient profit on even the tiniest of margins.
    Since the market is then being carved up between a few large players, it is relatively stable, the state makes lots of money through way too high taxes and the customer practically has no choice and ends up paying for it all.


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    #30
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    They aren't going for tiny margins, that can seen in the types of property they are going for.


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    #31
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,989 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    Since the market is then being carved up between a few large players, it is relatively stable, the state makes lots of money through way too high taxes and the customer practically has no choice and ends up paying for it all.

    And when the cartel has finally done the government's wish and driven the private landlords out we'll see massive changes in the rental sector and they won't be good for tenants. They have the money and power to change a lot and they won't accept the current tenant biased system.


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