Short term lets now half of Dublin rental market, anti landlord measures bite back

Cookie_Monster

beauf wrote: »

Anyway the issue is not LL vs Tenant. Thats just a distraction.

Its the lack of Supply.
.

Lack of supply is not the ultimate issue either, it's not like a vast proportion of existing stock has simply disappeared. Increased demand due to increased population is the real issue but nothing is being done to tackle this either.

You cannot simply build more and more houses forever to keep up with an ever increasing population...

beauf

Rental stock has disappeared. It's changed into something else. It's not a massive change, but it's significant enough so that it just can't keep up with increasing demand.

You are right about population though. I seem to remember While we have decrease of Irish nationals through emigration we have net increase of population though immigration of non Irish nationals, something like 80k per year. I'm open to correction on the specifics it a while since I read about it.

The other side is govt has done very little to increase supply in real terms.

The_Conductor

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Lack of supply is not the ultimate issue either, it's not like a vast proportion of existing stock has simply disappeared. Increased demand due to increased population is the real issue but nothing is being done to tackle this either.

You cannot simply build more and more houses forever to keep up with an ever increasing population...

Its part of the issue- the other part- is a lack of any will on the part of government and local authorities to better manage the existing housing stock that we have.

E.g. property tax is based solely on the value of property- nothing else. In almost any other country- its based on a formula which includes the number of habitable rooms in the property, the square footage of the property, the number of people dwelling in the property- *and* the value of the property....... Until such time as we bring a similar mechanism into play here- people will see it as normal to have a few extra bedrooms- or not to trade up and down as required- sure there is no imperative to do so. Allied to this- we have no real solutions for our elderly or retired members of society- there are no retirement solutions that you have elsewhere- so they sit in big cold empty houses- and have to get subsidised heating etc- while families less than a mile down the road are crammed into 2-3 bed apartments sharing 2-3 to a room- because they have no other option........... There has to be a mechanism to get the family- into the family home- and the retired person/couple- into a properly serviced apartment with access to the services, facilities and amenities that they now need at this stage in their lives..........

I hated the Troika- as much as the next person walking down the street- but by god- by giving the government a roadmap that they had to adhere to- it meant that the government could implement unpalatable measures- and do their usual finger pointing exercise to the great unwashed masses- its not our fault- its those faceless bureaucrats who made us do it........... Well- we have a shedload of measures that we now need to get out the gate- and we need the government to stop playing school yard politics- and get a move-on. Inviting the IMF back for an unprecedented programme- when we're not part of a bailout programme- was a good start- but more pertinently- we need a credible roadmap for the future- that is cognisant of where we are now at- and where we want to be in the future- and takes steps to get from A to Z- cognisant of EU and other obligations- and bumps in the road- such as Brexit.

The governments 40 year development programme- is a good first step- but it has been missold badly to the public- to the extent that its toxic before it ever got out the door (and the manner in which it included pre-existing infrastructure in its 'deliverables' was a bit of a joke).

Us Irish are uniquely incapable of governing ourselves- despite having a uniquely high number of public representatives. Perhaps our system is at fault?

The_Conductor

Vis-a-vis short term lets now making up half the available rental stock in Dublin- a better question to ask- is how is the market for short-term lets in Dublin changing?

E.g. I don't believe its grown very much- and I also don't believe that the majority of units are available on a fulltime basis. For example- I can tell you 4 people I work with- who let their home on airbnb in Dublin most weekends- sometimes for cold hard cash- sometimes as a swap for an apartment or another property in another city. 2 of the 4 are non-nationals who have moved here permanently- all own their own property.

Yes- there are some landlords who have taken rental properties off the market- and are letting them on short term lets- I would argue they are very much a minority of the short term letting market- a growing cohort certainly- but not the large number that everyone imagines them to be.

I was recently approached by a group of people from an apartment complex in Galway- some owners/some tenants- all of whom are looking for short term accommodation in Dublin- for Race week in Galway- and they figure that as a group they can mint it by letting the building for the week (its 12 separate units- not massive- and they were able to come together and agree this). I think this may happen more in future- people will recognise that airbnb is a mechanism for monetising their accommodation for peak times- and it gives them an opportunity to have a break somewhere else- and make a profit out of it.............

Airbnb- is not the bogeyman its painted to be- sure- there are a growing number of units coming off the rental market and into airbnb- but its a small number- because the management of airbnb units (cleaning schedules etc) doesn't suit most people (though some people make it work- and very profitably).

The elephant in the corner- is the number of small scale landlords- fleeing the sector entirely and selling off their units- as regulation has become too impossible to deal with.

beauf

The_Conductor wrote: »

...- as regulation has become too impossible to deal with.

"Lack of protection and high risks" IMO regulation is fine if its fair and equal.

dr.fuzzenstein

Would I be right in guessing that high tax on rental imcome and difficulties in removing bad tennants are the 2 major problems facing LLs in Ireland?
How much of a deal-breaker is tennant protection aparot from those 2?

Assetbacked

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Yes - we pay our taxes same as everyone else. Why should we subsidise people?

REITs or institutional landlords do not pay tax on their rental income subject to complying with certain conditions such as (I understand) returning 85% of the rental income to their shareholders (which could be other funds and big institutions). There are swathes of apartment blocks controlled by such landlords who do not have to pay any tax on their rental income.

Perhaps closing this ridiculous loophole and using the money to try to improve the market in some way could be beneficial. But wait, maybe the REITs could fight back by stifling supply even further; has the government lost control of the property market?

Andy Magic

CalamariFritti wrote: »

Calling not driving rent to extortionate levels 'subsidising' surely is the euphemism of the day. It's crippling an entire generation, taking advantage basically. And yes the government is complicit. It's nothing but funnelling tax money towards property owners and wrecking an entire generation of young people in the process. And yes I know the tax that is being paid back on the profits aint small either. Its a stupid circle all in the name of growth and 'the market'.

While ethically rather crappy yes it is legal and of course thats the world we're living in. But dont be dressing it up. There is a fair bit of plain old greed involved here, too.

Bingo, the greed of a generation over another is sickening in this country

beauf

Andy Magic wrote: »

Bingo, the greed of a generation over another is sickening in this country

An alternative viewpoint is this generation thinks its entitled to stay in Ireland regardless of affordability. Previous generations emigrated.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

Wanderer78

beauf wrote: »

An alternative viewpoint is this generation thinks its entitled to stay in Ireland regardless of affordability. Previous generations emigrated.

its clearly obvious, theres something fundamentally wrong with our housing policies and market, as they seem to fail most, including landlords and tenents

beauf

Its a problem thats common across the world, and at different times over history. Its not a new issue. Even if its the worst in the history of the state.

Lots of us will have had experiences of living in much worst conditions than exist now. Some people though have it very bad at the moment.

Dyr

beauf wrote: »

An alternative viewpoint is this generation thinks its entitled to stay in Ireland regardless of affordability. Previous generations emigrated.

I don't remember immigration and an economy on the ups being factors when the previous generations were leaving.

You kinda want to hold onto your citizenry, its a big part of being a functioning nation state rather than an entitlement problem

Andy Magic

beauf wrote: »

An alternative viewpoint is this generation thinks its entitled to stay in Ireland regardless of affordability. Previous generations emigrated.

Typical selfish response.. Maybe if some of these landlords sold their properties there might be some available for this generation to buy

beauf

Andy Magic wrote: »

Typical selfish response.. Maybe if some of these landlords sold their properties there might be some available for this generation to buy

Will they then be selfish if they own the property, or is it only selfish when someone else owns it.

beauf

Bambi wrote: »

I don't remember immigration and an economy on the ups being factors when the previous generations were leaving.

You kinda want to hold onto your citizenry, its a big part of being a functioning nation state rather than an entitlement problem

Its still about affordability. Either unemployment or high rents.

The point remains. People moved to where it was affordable.

dr.fuzzenstein

beauf wrote: »

An alternative viewpoint is this generation thinks its entitled to stay in Ireland regardless of affordability. Previous generations emigrated.

One could argue that the continued exodus of the brightest and smartest over several centuries could have adverse effects on the country and may not be regarded as a positive thing. But sure, what do I know, the country is in great shape!
This is not blaming landlords, but the established ruling classes.
The above situation has ensured that, while the most capable get out while they can, the ruling class by virtue of being deeply embedded in the fabric of industry, government, administrative and legislative, have carved up this little country for the profit of their small but elite circle.
That means that for the rest it's "if you don't like it, fcuk off".
But if you think that brain-drain is a good or positive thing for Ireland, how so?

beauf

I just making the point you have to realise when something is affordable, viable and when it isn't and adjust accordingly.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

Subtle

Andy Magic wrote: »

Bingo, the greed of a generation over another is sickening in this country

This. I see greed everywhere, but at the same time I can appreciate why everyone in that situation is jumping on this gravy train. But let's call it what it is.

Granted, there are issues wrt tenancy protection laws being perhaps too strong, but there's really only a tiny percentage of bad tenants out there. And in my opinion, it's pretty easy to avoid them in the first place. I wish landlords would stop using this as an excuse to justify the extortionate rents, kindof like an insurance premium. Insurance they'll never have to pay out on...

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

DubCount

Affordable housing for all. Nobody disagrees with the intention, but I dont think many people understand the implications. What is the minimum standard we expect people to live in? What is "affordable"? Who pays when "affordable" is out of reach?

You have to wonder why developers wont build property which is already above "affordable" levels. Are we prepared to drop building standards and regulations to make it cheaper to build? What about labour costs in construction? Should the tax payer subsidise building to make building houses at "affordable" prices a profitable venture for developers? should the tax payer pay for directly building "affordable" houses?

You also have to wonder why Landlords are not flooding into the market to benefit from "unaffordable" levels of rent. Should we reduce tenant protections? Should the tax payer subsidise landlords?

There is no magic money tree to solve this. Either we address what our minimum expectations are, or we understand that this needs to be funded by increased taxes or reduced expenditure in other areas. Kicking the can down the road by allowing overholding tenants or significant mortgage arrears will not work - its pay up or put up time....

Wanderer78

DubCount wrote: »

Affordable housing for all. Nobody disagrees with the intention, but I dont think many people understand the implications. What is the minimum standard we expect people to live in? What is "affordable"? Who pays when "affordable" is out of reach?

You have to wonder why developers wont build property which is already above "affordable" levels. Are we prepared to drop building standards and regulations to make it cheaper to build? What about labour costs in construction? Should the tax payer subsidise building to make building houses at "affordable" prices a profitable venture for developers? should the tax payer pay for directly building "affordable" houses?

You also have to wonder why Landlords are not flooding into the market to benefit from "unaffordable" levels of rent. Should we reduce tenant protections? Should the tax payer subsidise landlords?

There is no magic money tree to solve this. Either we address what our minimum expectations are, or we understand that this needs to be funded by increased taxes or reduced expenditure in other areas. Kicking the can down the road by allowing overholding tenants or significant mortgage arrears will not work - its pay up or put up time....

you should look into money creation in the modern age, its rather magical!;)

dr.fuzzenstein

DubCount wrote: »

Affordable housing for all. Nobody disagrees with the intention, but I dont think many people understand the implications. What is the minimum standard we expect people to live in? What is "affordable"? Who pays when "affordable" is out of reach?

You have to wonder why developers wont build property which is already above "affordable" levels. Are we prepared to drop building standards and regulations to make it cheaper to build? What about labour costs in construction? Should the tax payer subsidise building to make building houses at "affordable" prices a profitable venture for developers? should the tax payer pay for directly building "affordable" houses?

You also have to wonder why Landlords are not flooding into the market to benefit from "unaffordable" levels of rent. Should we reduce tenant protections? Should the tax payer subsidise landlords?

There is no magic money tree to solve this. Either we address what our minimum expectations are, or we understand that this needs to be funded by increased taxes or reduced expenditure in other areas. Kicking the can down the road by allowing overholding tenants or significant mortgage arrears will not work - its pay up or put up time....

Well, there is not one solution but it's not that diffucult either. The cost of building obviously doesn't make it viable. So either houses need to become far more expensive, or building them cheaper.
Regulation and tax burden is your obvious answer here, but the Irish state is not renowned for being able to react to a very simple problem, so nothing will happen.
Why are landlords not flooding the rental market? Well, I'm guessing that not enough is left over after tax. So once again greedy tax grab by the government in the spotlight here. As usual this is a very simple problem, so there is no way on Earth the Irish government will ever figure this out.
Eviction of problem tennants gets metioned a lot, ditto, nothing will ever get done. Since there is no tax to be increased, the answer will remain elusive.

In short, the Irish government only has 2 stock responses to any situation. Tax and Ban.
Since there is nothing to ban, I can predict that the answer will be increased taxes, it doesn't matter what the question is.
If this doesn't work, repeat until the crisis has turned into a catastrophe.

beauf

Subtle wrote: »

This. I see greed everywhere, but at the same time I can appreciate why everyone in that situation is jumping on this gravy train. But let's call it what it is.

Granted, there are issues wrt tenancy protection laws being perhaps too strong, but there's really only a tiny percentage of bad tenants out there. And in my opinion, it's pretty easy to avoid them in the first place. I wish landlords would stop using this as an excuse to justify the extortionate rents, kindof like an insurance premium. Insurance they'll never have to pay out on...

on daft rent per month range on the filter is from 0 or 200 to 20k

How do you define extortionate on that scale 200~20k

M.Cribben

The_Conductor wrote: »

Allied to this- we have no real solutions for our elderly or retired members of society- there are no retirement solutions that you have elsewhere- so they sit in big cold empty houses- and have to get subsidised heating etc- while families less than a mile down the road are crammed into 2-3 bed apartments sharing 2-3 to a room- because they have no other option........... There has to be a mechanism to get the family- into the family home- and the retired person/couple- into a properly serviced apartment with access to the services, facilities and amenities that they now need at this stage in their lives..........

I know it's only anecdotal evidence but from my own experience (my parents), elderly people don't want to leave the homes they have lived in for the last 30-40 years. Moving house can be both physically and mentally exhausting even for young people, never mind elderly people with health problems. Also, the majority have their mortgage long paid off, usually debt free and can live a comfortable life even on the State pension - no incentive to move. My parents have known their neighbours on both sides for over 30 years, they watch out for each other. There might be some elderly people happy to move, but I don't think enough would to make any real difference to housing supply. Any government that tried to force them out of their big homes and into apartments would be scoring a major political own goal.

beauf

Moving old people is great idea, but its not workable considering the vast lack of supports to facilitate it.

Not that their houses would be affordable or suitable for renting, in any case.

Graham

beauf wrote: »

Moving old people is great idea, but its not workable considering the vast lack of supports to facilitate it.

Chicken and egg, if property taxes were sufficient to encourage right-sizing demand would motivate supply of the necessary supports.

Instead we're treading water with this daft 'forever home' notion.

beauf

It's got nothing to do with forever home. That's a simplistic retort that doesn't understand that appropriate property doesn't exist and isn't even planned to be built in the community in which it is needed.

Realistically the only option is for them to covert their existing property to be more suitable for their needs.

Targeting the elderly because you want their property when it will have minimal impact on the scale of the shortage is ridiculous. Especially when it leaves them worse off.

dr.fuzzenstein

M.Cribben wrote: »

I know it's only anecdotal evidence but from my own experience (my parents), elderly people don't want to leave the homes they have lived in for the last 30-40 years. Moving house can be both physically and mentally exhausting even for young people, never mind elderly people with health problems. Also, the majority have their mortgage long paid off, usually debt free and can live a comfortable life even on the State pension - no incentive to move. My parents have known their neighbours on both sides for over 30 years, they watch out for each other. There might be some elderly people happy to move, but I don't think enough would to make any real difference to housing supply. Any government that tried to force them out of their big homes and into apartments would be scoring a major political own goal.

I'm racing towards 50 now and I am planning one more move and the next house I will only leave in a box. Hate moving.
Also, imagine you had a home that belonged to you and no debt. Would you trust the government to move you somewhere else and look after you? After 10 years they might say "whoops, terribly sorry there old chap, no more money for you, but there's some lovely bridges in the area".
If they tried to move me, there'd be a trail of bodies.