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Short term lets now half of Dublin rental market, anti landlord measures bite back

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    #92
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,620 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Yes, I really would like to sell my house to move into some kind of retirement Gulag run by the Russian mafia.
    And those nice people will also kindly relieve me of all that burdensome cash I now have to drag around with me after selling up. :rolleyes:

    I don't trust the care industry one millimeter.
    http://www.dw.com/en/mafia-plundering-germanys-care-homes/a-39050629

    edit:
    "I only have your best interest at heart" translates directly into "I'm going to gut you like a kipper". Anyone says that to you, do NOT trust that bastard one fcuking inch.


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    #93
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    Yes, I really would like to sell my house to move into some kind of retirement Gulag run by the Russian mafia.
    And those nice people will also kindly relieve me of all that burdensome cash I now have to drag around with me after selling up. :rolleyes:

    I don't trust the care industry one millimeter.

    I don't know what makes you assume retirement necessitates a care home.

    Similar to quadrifoglio verde, my grandparents spent most of the last 30ish years of their lives in a house they'd bought in a retirement village. The village itself was built by private developers and handed over to something similar to an OMC when all the properties had been sold.

    They absolutely loved it. Golf and fishing within the development, great community facilities, with the added bonus they got to enjoy some of the equity they'd spent a lifetime working to build up in their previous house.

    To my mind that sounds like a much better reward for a lifetime of work than minding an entirely too large heap of bricks under the misguided notion they must keep them to leave to little Johnny.


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    #94
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Graham wrote: »
    ...To my mind that sounds like a much better reward for a lifetime of work than minding an entirely too large heap of bricks under the misguided notion they must keep them to leave to little Johnny.

    You are missing the point. There just isn't anywhere to move to. Most elderly people struggle with large houses, but feel they have no where else to go, or it will cost too much money to move.


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    #95
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    beauf wrote: »
    You are missing the point. There just isn't anywhere to move to. Most elderly people struggle with large houses, but feel they have no where else to go, or it will cost too much money to move.

    I think I addressed that point several pages back:
    Graham wrote: »
    Chicken and egg, if property taxes were sufficient to encourage right-sizing demand would motivate supply of the necessary supports.

    Instead we're treading water with this daft 'forever home' notion.

    That said, I wouldn't be opposed to incentives for developers/purchasers to initially stimulate the supply side.


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    #96
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    Favourable tax treatment for people who are downsizing
    Favourable tax treatment for developers to develop and run specific retirement villages (perhaps base them on the tenancy for life model that you buy at the outset in a single lumpsum)
    Actually implement a proper local authority tax system- based on the size and number of bedrooms in a property- alongside its value- and change it to the 'user pays' principle- that is- whoever is resident in the property pays- owner, renter, whatever.
    I'd suggest lowering the inheritance tax threshold again- so there is no tax benefit for parents to sit on houses- in the expectation that its Mark and Maria's inheritance......... etc etc etc

    We need to help people help themselves. The current system perpetuates the system.

    From this thread I get the impression that no one realises that old folk can think and act for themselves in these matters?

    We can and do.

    And the form filling !!!!!


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    #97
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    beauf wrote: »
    You are missing the point. There just isn't anywhere to move to. Most elderly people struggle with large houses, but feel they have no where else to go, or it will cost too much money to move.

    Or just do not want the hassle of moving; a massive upheaval and work involved.

    In the end, their choice?


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    #98
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    quadrifoglio verde wrote: »
    Last September I visited my aunt and uncle in Chicago. They're in their 70s, but reasonably fit and healthy and still up for the good life. Anyway the reason why I'm posting about it is that they live in a retirement village.
    They originally lived in a large 3 storey house close to the city but decided to sell up and move a few years ago.
    Everything they need is on site.
    Theres golf courses, fitness centres, a mini hospital, restaurants, shops, supermarkets within easy access of their home within the village. Not to mention numerous activities and trips that they can take part in. Only those aged 55 and over could live in the village (more like a big town), so a good chance of living with your peers.
    The part that got me though was the size of their retirement home. It was huge and it was open plan. Everything around it was designed with the 55 and up age bracket in mind. No stairs to try and climb, no trip hazards. Two bedroom as well, so you could have guests stay should you wish. Not some tiny studio, but a very usable house, well suited to their needs

    It made me wonder why there wasn't something similar here. These houses were ideal for older people. And they don't miss their old house. While they'd still be able to use it, a it would be too big and b) on a few years all they'd be able to use is the ground floor. What's the point in that.
    A state sponsored retirement village won't work. People will object if they feel they're been forced out of their home, their home they've worked hard all their life to have and now to be told you have to go to a retirement villave.
    However I wouldn't be surprised if the likes of a reit started to develop one. What old person wouldn't want to live in somewhere suitable with everything they need on their doorstep and the services to match.



    I for one would hate that mightily. It has been suggested several times. believe me. And I passed my three score years and ten a long time ago..

    A ghetto for old folk...separated from real life .


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    #99
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Graces7 wrote: »
    [/B]

    I for one would hate that mightily. It has been suggested several times. believe me. And I passed my three score years and ten a long time ago..

    A ghetto for old folk...separated from real life .

    I wasn't aware there were any retirement villages in Ireland.

    The Irish version of 'retirement village' appears to be interchangeable with old peoples home, nursing home, assisted living schemes.

    Certainly not the type of thing I'm talking about.


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    #100
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,300 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Graces7 wrote: »
    A ghetto for old folk...separated from real life .
    When you consider how many old people are left in a large house after their partner dies, and none of their friends are able to visit due to being old... it's not such a bad idea.


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    #101
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Graham wrote: »
    I wasn't aware there were any retirement villages in Ireland.
    ...

    ...Bit hard to move people into something that doesn't exist here then...


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    #102
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    the_syco wrote: »
    When you consider how many old people are left in a large house after their partner dies, and none of their friends are able to visit due to being old... it's not such a bad idea.

    The crave company usually.

    Also getting GP's, Physio and a range of other such services at home is nigh impossible.


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    #103
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,620 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Isn't it nice how so many people decide what's best for someone else.
    I make my own decisions, thank you so very much, if it's all the same to you.
    And if course this is Ireland. Alternatives do not exist, and yet people want to force someone out of their existing nice home into what?
    Some Celtic tiger sh*teheap with paper thin walls that needs to be torn down again in 20 years time because of shoddy build quality?
    My house is for me, not "little Johnny", FRO with your assumptions.
    I may not be that old, but I'm old enough to have to think ahead. And do not tell others what's best for them as a sharp rap across the shins with a walking stick stings like fcuk.


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    #104
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Graces7 wrote: »
    From this thread I get the impression that no one realises that old folk can think and act for themselves in these matters?

    We can and do.

    And the form filling !!!!!

    No they can't in a lot of case. You appear to move from rental to rental. Buying a property requires a lot more organisation and ready cash at various times. I knew a brother and sister who lived on means-tested pensions in a 1930s house with a massive garden. Both died within a short 20 years ago time and the house sold for half a million punts, which went to a nephew. They could have had a much more pleasant retirement rather than scrimping and scraping and floundering about in an old, cold house.


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    #105
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    Yes, I really would like to sell my house to move into some kind of retirement Gulag run by the Russian mafia.
    And those nice people will also kindly relieve me of all that burdensome cash I now have to drag around with me after selling up. :rolleyes:

    I don't trust the care industry one millimeter.
    http://www.dw.com/en/mafia-plundering-germanys-care-homes/a-39050629

    edit:
    "I only have your best interest at heart" translates directly into "I'm going to gut you like a kipper". Anyone says that to you, do NOT trust that bastard one fcuking inch.

    That is only one option. I was suggesting down sizing by splitting some existing houses so they stay in their community. If used in conjunction you could have those that want to downsize and stay local could, those that want to go to a retirement community could and those that don't want to move don't have to. The idea is incentives with as little pressure as possible.

    It would solve so many things.


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    #106
    pc7
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 14,121 Mod ✭✭✭✭pc7


    For all those lauding 'professional landlords'
    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/ireland-s-largest-private-landlord-seeking-1-500-rent-for-one-bed-finglas-flat-1.3504131


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    #107
    DubCount
    Registered Users Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭DubCount


    pc7 wrote: »
    For all those lauding 'professional landlords'
    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/ireland-s-largest-private-landlord-seeking-1-500-rent-for-one-bed-finglas-flat-1.3504131

    1,500 per month for an unfurnished 1 bed apartment in Finglas, plus 2 months security deposit. Probably no tax to the exchequer. Well worth it for the professionalism of the LL.:confused:


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    #108
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,348 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    pc7 wrote: »
    For all those lauding 'professional landlords'
    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/ireland-s-largest-private-landlord-seeking-1-500-rent-for-one-bed-finglas-flat-1.3504131

    I don't think anyone is under any illusions that a Reit aims to maximise its returns. That said, the other side of that article is that it demonstrates how rent controls are lowering rental prices across the city. In that specific example they are letting out a previously unlet one bed unfurnished apartment for 25% more than a currently let comparable one bed furnished unit in the same development. If that isn't an argument for rent pressure zones and controls I don't know what is.

    We need more supply in the market, that is certain. We also need legislation to tackle overholding, that is inarguable. But it is being clearly demonstrated over and over that the motivation for all landlords is financial. Whether that be through exiting the market to maximise returns on airbnb or look for 25% increases where possible. We can also assume that - in the context of the current market - there is a necessity for minimum buildings standards and protection of tenants rights, as the pressure will motivate subversion of same at every opportunity.

    In that way I don't agree with the simple idea that all the ills of the market are the fault of regulation. I also don't think now of all times is the juncture at which such regulation should be dropped. There's lots of sneering and jeering coming from all angles on this issue while Dublin grinds to a halt. No - one is winning here.


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    #109
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    But it is being clearly demonstrated over and over that the motivation for all landlords is financial.
    What did you think their motivation was?

    Put rent controls in place, and bidders with more income are forced to bid the few apartments left on the market to ever higher prices. Drive landlords out of the market with RPZs and limit their tax reliefs, and supply falls. That's why a one bed Finglas apartment is going for 1500 euros.

    The answer is not rent control, the answer is supply. Let a dozen professional landlords build 20,000 apartments over the next 2 years and we'll be well on the way to tackling this manufactured crisis.

    I heard someone on the radio recently saying that this was an "emergency" and there should be a halt to all evictions.

    Some people just don't understand the basics of supply and demand.


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    #110
    M.Cribben
    Registered Users Posts: 325 ✭✭M.Cribben


    Interesting discussion on reddit about those Finglas apartments
    https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/8l97na/irelands_largest_private_landlord_looks_to_set/


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    #111
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    ....That said, the other side of that article is that it demonstrates how rent controls are lowering rental prices across the city.......

    Words fail me...

    https://www.daft.ie/report


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    #112
    Conservatory
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Conservatory


    -I think what happened is during a rental panic the landlords moved everyone and upped the prices before controls came in.
    -This led the government to squeeze them out and try get professionals in.
    -Some didn’t do this but that doesn’t matter to them.
    -As long as they can twiddle the numbers and give people a popular referendum they will get in power again.
    - Hotel occupancy rate is at an all time high
    - Homeless are in all the hotels
    - Tax breaks for building hotels
    - Nothing will be fixed until all the distressed loans and namas are finished up
    - Free tax on new house builds will then be introduced and the housing boom will start again

    Allowing high rise apartments in the city center and freeing up some money would solve it fairly sharp but it wouldn’t pay the speculators back.

    Maybe there’s more to it than that but that’s what it looks like from here.


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    #113
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,300 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    M.Cribben wrote: »
    Interesting discussion on reddit about those Finglas apartments
    https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/8l97na/irelands_largest_private_landlord_looks_to_set/
    It sounds like people are terminating their lease due to the anti-social behaviour, and the LL is trying to stop this from happening.
    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    But it is being clearly demonstrated over and over that the motivation for all landlords is financial.
    HAHAHHAAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHA. Sorry, but what other reason do you think people get into business for? The welfare of their fellow man? It's a business, not a charity.


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    #114
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,348 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    beauf wrote: »
    Words fail me...

    https://www.daft.ie/report

    And that's with rental controls in place! If you remove those controls where would the prices go! I am not denying the data.
    the_syco wrote: »
    HAHAHHAAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHA. Sorry, but what other reason do you think people get into business for? The welfare of their fellow man? It's a business, not a charity.

    I never thought any other reason? But we have to tightly regulate service providers with a profit motive when their service is a societal necessity and their clientele can be in very vulnerable positions.


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    #115
    DubCount
    Registered Users Posts: 1,089 ✭✭✭DubCount


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    And that's with rental controls in place! If you remove those controls where would the prices go! I am not denying the data.



    I never thought any other reason? But we have to tightly regulate service providers with a profit motive when their service is a societal necessity and their clientele can be in very vulnerable positions.

    Rent controls ultimately curtail supply and drive prices upwards. Perhaps some sitting tenants have received a benefit, but new entrants to the rental market and anybody who moves property is paying the price. Everyone starting into a new rental today is paying a premium for the impact of protecting sitting tenants.

    Profit motive and social service are uncomfortable room mates. If you want social service, that should be provided by government. Managing the rental market by regulation is like sweeping out the tide - demand doesn't change, and the customer pays.


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    #116
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    And that's with rental controls in place! If you remove those controls where would the prices go! I am not denying the data.

    All historical evidence is that RPZ do not work to cap rent increases.
    There is every indication they increase rents and make the shortage worse.

    The Irish data is no different.

    “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results”.
    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    ...But we have to tightly regulate service providers with a profit motive when their service is a societal necessity and their clientele can be in very vulnerable positions.

    Social housing should not be run on a profit basis. A business cannot be run without making a profit. The Govt should not be outsourcing this. They should be building social housing. Their lethargy and inertia is the true scandal here.


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    #117
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »

    I never thought any other reason? But we have to tightly regulate service providers with a profit motive when their service is a societal necessity and their clientele can be in very vulnerable positions.

    Social housing which the government should provide is a societal necessity (though whether it should be provided as much as it is is another questions), private rented accommodation is a business not a societal necessity and should not be afforded all the protections it already is never mind more.


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    #118
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,300 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    But we have to tightly regulate service providers with a profit motive when their service is a societal necessity and their clientele can be in very vulnerable positions.
    Tightly regulating the market is what is causing the shortage.


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    #119
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    beauf wrote: »
    Words fail me...

    https://www.daft.ie/report

    People throw daft reports around a lot but they don't really say anything about the state of the whole market. All they ever cover is the advertised price of the currently advertised properties.


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    #120
    alwald
    Registered Users Posts: 1,289 ✭✭✭alwald


    pc7 wrote: »
    For all those lauding 'professional landlords'
    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/ireland-s-largest-private-landlord-seeking-1-500-rent-for-one-bed-finglas-flat-1.3504131

    Are these newly built apartments?


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    #121
    Raucous
    Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭Raucous


    Yeah we should all feel sorry for the hordes of landlords bleeding our country dry. Who knew they had no choice and were forced down the laziest and most parasitic career path of them all?


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