Recommend electric folding scooter for end of commute (Mod Note Post #1)

ted1

beauf wrote: »

Youre missing the point. You can't cycle a normal non motorised bicycle on a path. It's got nothing to do with MPV. You can cycle a regular bicycle on a road though.

What point am I missing. A bike is not a MPV, it is a pedal bike can go on roads.

And to the best if my knowledge there is no law against cycling on footpaths.

ted1

beauf wrote: »

Hasn't made anything much clearer has it..

You sir are living in denial. Read the second line.

tuxy

ted1 wrote: »

What point am I missing. A bike is not a MPV, it is a vehicle and can go on roads.

And to the best if my knowledge there is no law against cycling on footpaths.

Will apart from the fact that anyone who cycles on a footpath is either under ten years old or a moron.


Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations 1997

Article 13 of the 1997 Regulations makes it an offence to cycle on a footpath unless you are entering or exiting a property

Odd that you would think there is no law against operating a vehicle on footpaths, footpaths are for pedestrians not vehicles.

ted1

tuxy wrote: »

Will apart from the fact that anyone who cycles on a footpath is either under ten years old or a moron.


Road Traffic (Traffic and Parking) Regulations 1997


Odd that you would think there is no law against operating a vehicle on footpaths, footpaths are for pedestrians not vehicles.

Article 13 refers to vehicles not pedal bikes.

The definition is:
a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical or partly electrical and partly mechanical,

So it doesn’t cover bikes

Personally I don’t cycle on footpaths.

prinzeugen

beauf wrote: »

Can scoot a scooter around your garden perfectly legal.

No. We canny scoot about or act the ****!

If you are legal,....

prinzeugen

prinzeugen wrote: »

No. We canny scoot about or act the ****!

If you are legal,....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tKnBURvKW4I

grogi

tuxy wrote: »

What's the confusion with bike lanes they were changed to mandatory and then this was revoked. Very straight forward.

In this case with scooters the law says they are MPVs but Garda.ie say they are not, very confusing.

Read that statement again. Nowhere it says that if the scooter requires scooting, it is not an MPV.

Garibaldi?

Unless the law is changed the scooters we see all around the place will remain" illegal"(whether or not the law is enforced) Once they are started, they continue to move solely by the power of their own motors. There is no input from the rider.

...Ghost...

prinzeugen wrote: »

Again.. There is no grey area. How the thing starts does not matter. This thing about "push to start" is bull****e, made up by sellers trying to fool people into buying them.

People are just repeating this "fake news".

Have you any evidence that "many Garda" have said these things are legal? The reason motorcycle Garda have been seizing them is because they are traffic cops. It is their job!

Again, there is a grey area. Otherwise there would be no debate and we would be arguing only about changing the legislation to legalise something if indeed that something was illegal. The push-to-start is not BS, it's a necessity to get the scooter moving, because it won't propel itself.

Donald, I have as much evidence about their legality as you have about their illegality. We disagree on what the legislation means and we can both reference videos where Gardai say they are MPVs and not MPVs.

Traffic cops are in cars too and on bicycles. I have not seen, or heard about any e-scooters being seized by these. It seems that only the ones on motorcycles are seizing them and it seems there are only a couple of them doing it.

There has been a suggestion that one of them is connected to the tow-truck company, but I don't know if there is any truth to that.

beauf wrote: »

....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdBcLcQbP78

That's not a push start one. That guy is an idiot. Those speeds and he has no body protection.

prinzeugen wrote: »

If you are old enough, you may remember the "fad" around 2007 was for mini motorbikes. There was a electric kids version. Seized by the Garda? Why?
.

Those things were definitely MPVs and could be propelled on their own power. They were seized because the parents of these children allowed their kids to use them on the roads where they could easily have been killed. A guy I was friend with bought one when his kid was about 6. It was a petrol "chopper" style one. I weighed about 90kg and it was capable of carrying me no problem. It was only used in a park, but plenty of kids in his area were using them on the main roads and were rightly seized.

beauf wrote: »

Incidentally here is a scooter with no throttle.

It only has an assisted mode.

https://youtu.be/0QvtcLe4vGc

The motor can run on its own and without continued assistance for about 10 seconds. I don't consider it to be an MPV but others here do.

tuxy

What's the deal with the weird hip moment, why does that propel you forward?

rubadub

tuxy wrote: »

What's the deal with the weird hip moment, why does that propel you forward?

similar principle as to why these go

If you stand on a skateboard you can get it moving off your own steam.

This is what I was talking about in previous posts, that the only way I could see them being legal is to have some sort of foot pedal on the scooter where you apply up and down force which powers the wheel, and then the motor can assist. As I guess it would be similar to the pedelec. The one which requires active scooting may fall under something, powering for 10s is a long time though.

The foot pedal would be similar to how these work

prinzeugen

tuxy wrote: »

Why use the word scooter then? Are you saying they don't know what a scooter is?



The Garda would not be sloppy like that any merely make a rough interpretation of the law. They would have the resources to be very accurate.

The word scooter is used as it describes that style of vehicle. Land Rovers were referred to a Jeeps and we all Hoover the floor. Jetski is a brand of Personal watercraft.

That Garda statement is 100% accurate and clear. It makes it clear that if one of these "scooters" can be propelled by electric power alone they are MPVs.

There is no grey area. Method of getting the thing moving does not matter. The reason you need to "push" is because the motor cannot provide the torque to get moving from a stand.

Its like trying to pull away from a set of lights in a car while its in top gear.

Garibaldi?

I'd say that emicro one is legal because the rider's action is keeping it going. Like most e-bikes.

beauf

Electric scooter giant Lime has Ireland in its sights as part of a European push

https://jrnl.ie/4597929

Get Real

Garibaldi? wrote: »

Unless the law is changed the scooters we see all around the place will remain" illegal"(whether or not the law is enforced) Once they are started, they continue to move solely by the power of their own motors. There is no input from the rider.

Exactly this. If people want it changed, write to your local TD. I think the switch to these for commutes is highly beneficial for numerous reasons.

Most of the time, the law won't be/isn't enforced on this issue. When it is enforced, the usual complaints arise, and when it's not, the usual complaints arise. So it's a case of being fked either way. Which is why there should be no vagueness/ 4 or 5 interpretations and nobody really knowing including a judge.

Could all be fine, and then there's a case of an accident with a car, or an accident with a pedestrian. What type of scooter did the person have, how is it propelled, if that person has the "wrong" type, and someone is injured, and it turns out that that scooter should have had insurance.

Politicians need to set a black and white rule so everybody knows what the story is. It'd be better than a scooter website (who are trying to make money off you) having a webpage, typed up with something along the lines of "it goes under 30mph" Father Ted like, pseudo-science advice.

ED E

Garibaldi? wrote: »

I'd say that emicro one is legal because the rider's action is keeping it going. Like most e-bikes.

Not in Ireland as we specify bicycle or tricycle.

Capt'n Midnight

machiavellianme wrote: »

Surely they also need lights?
I'm sick of stumbling upon these in the dark, chugging along and their rider dressed entirely in black with no illumination.

Even if they weren't MPV's the lowest requirement would be those for a bicycle.


https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driving_offences/cycling_offences.html

Since 31 July 2015 the cycling offences to which a fixed charge applies are:

No front or rear light during lighting-up hours
...
Cycling in a pedestrianised street or area (however cycling on a footpath is not a fixed charge offence)

Under the Road Traffic (Construction, Equipment and Use of Vehicles) Regulations 1963 a bicycle used in a public place must be fitted with a bell capable of being heard at a reasonable distance. It must also be equipped with brakes, one for the front wheel and another for the rear wheel.
...
Article 13 of the 1997 Regulations makes it an offence to cycle on a footpath unless you are entering or exiting a property

...Ghost...

prinzeugen wrote: »

There is no grey area. Method of getting the thing moving does not matter. The reason you need to "push" is because the motor cannot provide the torque to get moving from a stand.

Its like trying to pull away from a set of lights in a car while its in top gear.

I completely disagree with you there and as a rider, I can confirm they do have enough torque to move from a stand still. I have checked this myself by scooting a slight incline and almost coming to a complete stop (going less than 1kph) I could engage the throttle and move off quickly. I am also at the vehicles max weight recommendation. Some youtubers have also managed to remove the push to start requirement through firmware changes.

Garibaldi?

Saw a guy today on a scooter with a seat literally flying along passing out all the traffic! Really wished I had one!!

zom

beauf wrote: »

Electric scooter giant Lime has Ireland in its sights as part of a European push

https://jrnl.ie/4597929

Should be not allowed. Knife in the back of cities public transport services.

Garibaldi? wrote: »

Saw a guy today on a scooter with a seat literally flying along passing out all the traffic! Really wished I had one!!

Wonder if he got any insurance or I have to pay if something happen to him.

Garibaldi?

zom wrote: »

Should be not allowed. Knife in the back of cities public transport services.



Wonder if he got any insurance or I have to pay if something happen to him.

That is indeed a serious consideration!

...Ghost...

zom wrote: »

Should be not allowed. Knife in the back of cities public transport services.

They should be allowed. Without getting into how crappy, unreliable and expensive our public transport system is, I firmly believe that these scooters would actually increase the numbers who use public transport. The data shows that most of the rental scooters are taken from and left at public transport hubs, which suggests the scooter riders are using public transport for the longer commute. People are more likely to leave their cars at home if they can get the bus, or train and then scoot the last couple of miles.

Wonder if he got any insurance or I have to pay if something happen to him.

Do you know of any cyclists with insurance? They zoom by a hell of a lot faster than most scooter riders.

Garibaldi?

Ray Darcy maintains that people may become a bit childish when they step up on a scooter and be inclined to act somewhat recklessly.

McGiver

Garibaldi? wrote:

Ray Darcy maintains that people may become a bit childish when they step up on a scooter and be inclined to act somewhat recklessly.

The same could be said about the bikes. Or walking, after all, kids are mostly pedestrians.
Silly argument.

Markcheese

Interesting on the insurance thing... I assume if a pedestrian is hit by a pedalec (no arguing on blame) the pedestrian is on their own, as in could sue but won't because there's no insurance,
Whereas if someone is hit by an illegal scooter, they could hit up the uninsured vehicles/drivers fund, as it motor propelled vehicle.... So motorists ultimately pay...

biko

Garibaldi? wrote: »

Saw a guy today on a scooter with a seat literally flying

..figuratively..

I'd get one myself if it didn't run so bloody much where I live.

Garibaldi?

I would love one of these but i won't spend money on one unless the law is changed.

Garibaldi?

If these are legalized we'll see people on them everywhere! A scooter revolution!!:):):)

Capt'n Midnight

Garibaldi? wrote: »

I would love one of these but i won't spend money on one unless the law is changed.

They are illegal.

So save a lot of money by making a citizen's arrest and wee bit of confiscation.

biko

Kinda cool

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_XVcYVyi60