Recommend electric folding scooter for end of commute (Mod Note Post #1)

Zurbaran

Lumen wrote: »

Round profile tyres don't aqua plane so grooves are unnecessary.

That may well be the case but it’s not aquaplaning that is the issue.

beauf

Probably just a hard Vs soft compound between tyres.

Markcheese

unkel wrote: »

Not sure if making them legal is good news though if you need:

- a scooter driving license
- pay motor tax (and display it presumably)
- have insurance (and display it presumably)

Is that the recommendation?

unkel

Markcheese wrote: »

Is that the recommendation?

I don't know. But the hint at having to have a license implies it's still classified as a mechanically propelled vehicle (MPV) and all MPV currently have to be taxed and insured.

tuxy

Requiring E-Scooters to display insurance when motorbikes don't would be a bizare decision. I can't see that happening.
I don't think tax should be required, I wonder if the report says anything about that.
If insurance is around €50 a year like in Germany then that would be fantasic and of real benifit to both scooter and other road users.
I can't even imagine what opbtaining a licence for it would be like.

rubadub

unkel wrote: »

Not sure if making them legal is good news though if you need:

- a scooter driving license
- pay motor tax (and display it presumably)
- have insurance (and display it presumably)

there was a speed limit mentioned too, in Germany this was 20km/hr and bikes had to be brought to shops to be modified. Not sure if they have to have some sort of proof they cannot go above the speed.

20km/hr is relatively slow, so if we used that limit here and allowed them on cycletracks then I would expect far more cyclists to ditch cycletracks and stick to roads on certain stretches like the N11, so I would expect taximen & busdrivers & bus commuters to be complaining.

You typically on average have to wait far longer to be able to safely pass escooters as they are very unpredictable which is only to be expected if they are having to avoid the terrible surfaces on many cycletracks. Somebody else mentioned how they stick to the very centre of the lane, rather than the left side, but will be abruptly going off to either side. I would likely be the same if forced to use one.

I rarely see them looking over their shoulder so are unaware of people behind them, while it is common to see cyclists looking over and then sticking to one side to allow an overtake. I have not used one but would guess it is much more difficult to check over your shoulder than when on a bike.

https://www.dw.com/en/electric-scooters-rollout-off-to-a-bumpy-start-in-germany/a-49500295

Electric scooters' rollout off to a bumpy start in Germany
Germany is seeing a transportation revolution, as electric scooters win over new riders with their speed and ease. But a spike in accidents involving the new vehicles has sparked concern among police and medical experts.

Hundreds of rental models are currently in action on the streets of Cologne, with the city expecting some 40,000 by the end of the year.

"We're not prepared enough for them in Germany," Christopher Spering, a senior trauma surgeon at the University Medical Center Göttingen, told DW.

Spering, who also heads the injury prevention working group at the German Society for Trauma Surgery (DGU), said riders risk head injuries and broken bones in their hands and ankles.

"There is an extremely high potential for injury," Spering said, adding that the rider's standing position on the scooter makes them "more dangerous than bicycles."

unkel

tuxy wrote: »

If insurance is around €50 a year like in Germany then that would be fantasic

Germany doesn't have the Irish compo culture. If you sit down in a restaurant and hit your knee against the leg of the table, it's considered an accident. Accidents happen. It's your own fault for not being careful. In Ireland you sue and you get your €20k :rolleyes:

Linky


I'd say insurance is going to be hundreds...

ted1

unkel wrote: »

Germany doesn't have the Irish compo culture. If you sit down in a restaurant and hit your knee against the leg of the table, it's considered an accident. Accidents happen. It's your own fault for not being careful. In Ireland you sue and you get your €20k :rolleyes:

Linky


I'd say insurance is going to be hundreds...

FFS..

Capt'n Midnight

Zurbaran wrote: »

That may well be the case but it’s not aquaplaning that is the issue.

Aquaplaning ?

Just exactly how fast do these things go ?



Correct me but doesn't anything with two wheels and a design speed of 25Km/hr or over currently need a Category AM licence ?

tuxy

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Correct me but doesn't anything with two wheels and a design speed of 25Km/hr or over currently need a Category AM licence ?

I don't think speed comes into it. An E-Scooter that could only do 10 km/h would still need a licence.
The 25 km/h limit only appliesd to E-Bikes.

prinzeugen

tuxy wrote: »

I don't think speed comes into it. An E-Scooter that could only do 10 km/h would still need a licence.
The 25 km/h limit only appliesd to E-Bikes.

Correct. Any 2 wheeled MPV under 49cc (or equivalent KW) needs a AM licence. On the subject of discs..

I only had a tax disc on any motorbike once. It got stolen. I have kept it on a keyring since. Never had an issue at Garda checkpoints. Was in my wallet next to my licence for a few years too. Again no problems.

Lumen

prinzeugen wrote: »

Correct. Any 2 wheeled MPV under 49cc (or equivalent KW) needs a AM licence.

I think you're confusing AM and A1.

AM is <45kph.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driver_licensing/learner_driving_permits_for_motorcycles_in_ireland.html

antodeco

Zurbaran wrote: »

I don’t have much to compare to as it’s the only one I’ve had but I found it very jarring at the start but the suspension has loosened up so it’s a lot better now. One of the tips when getting a kugoo s1 was to loosen it straight away but I’m lazy so didn’t. Over time it’s gotten a lot better.

The rear for some reason has no grooves all the way through the tyre so is deadly in the wet. It’s got grooves on the side of the tyre but they are unusable in any condition.

I loosened the suspension and then replaced the rear tyre with a pnuematic tyre. Made a world of difference. Braking is still poor on the S1 in the wet on a wet tyre, but the back doesnt kick out! I highly recommend it!

rubadub

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/e-scooters-could-help-state-hit-emissions-targets-report-finds-1.3999347?mode=amp

think it is odd that they are even considering allowing them on footpaths.

“Guidelines should consider other road users (including pedestrians). For example, if powered transporters are allowed on pavements, there could be a maximum speed of 6km/h to protect pedestrians.”

It would also result in far higher insurance costs for them, if you have to have insurance.

rubadub

https://www.rsa.ie/en/Utility/News/2019/recommendations-following-the-review-of-current-practice-and-safety-implications-of-electric-mobility-devices/

20km/hr limit and not recommending footpath use, no helmet law, permitted in cyclelanes.

Devices permitted on Irish roads should adhere to minimum safety standards e.g. maximum speed of 20km/h. In addition, design features for devices permitted on Irish roads should prioritise safety features, such as brakes, lighting and audible warning mechanisms. A review of the draft EU standard, CEN, could be considered in this context.

Some jurisdictions allow such devices on footpaths provided they do not exceed a speed of 6km/h. From a practical perspective this would be very difficult to enforce, and therefore because of the risk which the use of these devices would pose to pedestrians if travelling at higher speeds, I recommend that they should not be used on footpaths.

I believe there is merit, also on safety grounds, to limit their use to roads with a speed limit of 50km/h or less. Ideally, their use should be curtailed to 30km/h zones. They could be used in cycle lanes, where available.

In some countries an age restriction applies to the user, depending on the power of the device. This is a pragmatic approach that should be considered e.g. minimum age of 16 for use of a device with a maximum speed of 20km/h. While I do not propose making PPE mandatory, users should be encouraged to wear helmets and high visibility clothing, as per our recommendation for cyclists.

unkel

Rather than regulating for the use of these devices at national level, it may be appropriate for Local Authorities to pass bye-laws to regulate for these, depending on the suitability of local infrastructure.

Not that crap again

It's the exact same thing that gets all the culchie EV drivers clamped in Dublin while they are charging (because they think parking is free while charging like where they are from)

We need national laws, not stupid local bye-laws

Lumen

The restriction to built up areas is bull****.

I live 2.5km from a train station on an L road and wouldn't be able to get there by escooter but could on a kick scooter or on foot.

prinzeugen

Lumen wrote: »

I think you're confusing AM and A1.

AM is <45kph.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driver_licensing/learner_driving_permits_for_motorcycles_in_ireland.html

Its still the same as the old Cat M. <50cc (or equivalent Kw) and/or 45kph max speed. Its why you cannot take a 50cc moped on a motorway regardless of what category of motorbike licence you hold.

The engine power restrictions are still law.

Martynet

rubadub wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/e-scooters-could-help-state-hit-emissions-targets-report-finds-1.3999347?mode=amp

think it is odd that they are even considering allowing them on footpaths.



It would also result in far higher insurance costs for them, if you have to have insurance.

Footpath should be allowed but only in really low speed... something like 6-10 km/h. The reason for that is that sometimes people scoot together with their kids... And sometimes there is street without cycling lane, like Grafton Street.

Martynet

I don't know if it was mentioned here before, but official public consultation is open now here:
https://www.gov.ie/en/consultation/d1531c-public-consultation-on-personal-powered-transport/

If you don't have time to print and scan again that form, you can use our modified version, which can be filled in Acrobat Reader and then emailed without printing. Here's download link:
https://we.tl/t-FRAL7xB1uN

I also met Shane Ross in July and you can read a report from that meeting in my FB group "Electric Scooter Ireland".

He really liked our suggestion creating new categories for all PPTs. Most people will buy slow and cheap scooters and this group would be covered in first category where the PPTs' speed is limited at 25 km/h. People are allowed to buy and drive fast cars and motorbike and this freedom of choice should apply on PPTs too. That why there is 2 more categories for faster machines, but more restrictions, of course. Everybody is happy

beauf

I can see why they want them not allowed on footpaths.

But in many places footpaths allow Permeability or connectivity

Which often allow you to avoid dangerous junctions and very long circular detours.

marcos_94

Martynet wrote: »

Footpath should be allowed but only in really low speed... something like 6-10 km/h. The reason for that is that sometimes people scoot together with their kids... And sometimes there is street without cycling lane, like Grafton Street.

How do you enforce the speed limit? Its quite clear why they dont want them on footpaths, its for safety reasons. How many people walk on the path with their eyes glued to their phones. The electric scooters should be treated no differently to bicycles. If a parent is with their kids on the path, they can scoot without electrical assistance.

With regards to grafton street, its difficult to walk down on a normal day so scooters going down it at even 6-10kmh poses a safety threat with people coming in and out of shops unexpectedly.

Martynet wrote: »

I don't know if it was mentioned here before, but official public consultation is open now here:
https://www.gov.ie/en/consultation/d1531c-public-consultation-on-personal-powered-transport/

Thanks for linking this, will fill it out!

beauf

marcos_94 wrote: »

....The electric scooters should be treated no differently to bicycles. I....

How are cyclists treated...?

Cyclists will be able to continue using footpaths when the new fixed-charge notices system is introduced, the Irish Independent has learned.

Transport Minister Paschal Donohoe has made a last-minute decision to omit cycling on footpaths from the penalties list for fear it would discourage families who cycle to school with their young children.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/cyclists-who-use-footpaths-will-not-be-fined-31342974.html

Article 13 of the 1997 Regulations makes it an offence to cycle on a footpath unless you are entering or exiting a property (however this has not been included under ‘Fixed Charge Offences’ see below).

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driving_offences/cycling_offences.html

rubadub

beauf wrote: »

How are cyclists treated...?

illegal to cycle on a footpath, even kids, and illegal to cycle down grafton street, regardless of speed. Because it was omitted from the on the spot fines many people were left under the impression it is perfectly legal to hoor around on footpaths. Small children on footpaths is widely tolerated, but still illegal.

Allowing them on footpaths is crazy, the RSA did NOT recommended it in the latest letter. Electric wheelchairs have a low speed limit, but most are not capable of pissing about at 25+km/hr if they want.

marcos_94

beauf wrote: »

How are cyclists treated...?



https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/cyclists-who-use-footpaths-will-not-be-fined-31342974.html



https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driving_offences/cycling_offences.html

Thanks for those links. I didnt know about the exclusion of cycling on footpaths for bicycles. Not sure I agree with it for "normal" cyclists but completely understand their logic of families with children. I would still say that electric scooters (and bicycles) should not be on paths because of the nuisance they cause to people walking, or even cars pulling out of driveways, etc

beauf

marcos_94 wrote: »

Thanks for those links. I didnt know about the exclusion of cycling on footpaths for bicycles. Not sure I agree with it for "normal" cyclists but completely understand their logic of families with children. I would still say that electric scooters (and bicycles) should not be on paths because of the nuisance they cause to people walking, or even cars pulling out of driveways, etc

Lots of cycle paths or shared use paths, alleys, estates or areas around canals, train stations, are connected by paths. Its makes lots of cycle routes much harder if you can't cycle/scoot them.

But I guess the issue is if people want encourage people out of cars, or want to keep the status quo and have more cars.

Perhaps there should be signs to allowed shared use under certain speeds and proceed with care.

There is always....

Riding a bicycle without reasonable consideration
Cycling in a pedestrianised street or area (however cycling on a footpath is not a fixed charge offence)

marcos_94

beauf wrote: »

Lots of cycle paths or shared use paths, alleys, estates or areas around canals, train stations, are connected by paths. Its makes lots of cycle routes much harder if you can't cycle/scoot them.

But I guess the issue is if people want encourage people out of cars, or want to keep the status quo and have more cars.

Perhaps there should be signs to allowed shared use under certain speeds and proceed with care.

There is always....

To be fair, if thats the reason that stops them from cycling, they probably wouldnt keep up cycling for too long anyways!

I cycle to work out in Sandyford and find it quite annoying having to drive around the one way road system. I also find it incredibly annoying when walking somewhere in Sandyford to have some cyclist force me onto the grass/dirt because they dont want to follow the roads. Thats the kind of situation that shouldnt occur,a nd also why i follow the roads

beauf

Like I said you either want to encourage cycling or find reasons to discourage it.

https://ecf.com/news-and-events/news/filtered-permeability-improves-safety-cycle-highway-beuningen
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/NTA_Permeability_Report_-_Web.08.20151.pdf

http://www.cleanair-europe.org/de/projekte/vcd/ebc/cohabitation-between-cyclists-and-pedestrians/

rubadub

Disturbing to hear TD Noel Rock on the radio interviewed and still claiming to be under the impression that the use of escooters on the road is a "grey area", complete and utter embarrassment, how clear do the authorities have to be?! They already had to change websites and statements to cater for these scumbag conmen (at the expense of the taxpayer), and he is still at it?!!

An absoulute disgrace of man, pure scumbag as I do not believe him for one second, lowest of the low, no better than the scum who duped people into buying them -and those cnuts who knowingly kept up this false charade.

unkel

Bit of a rant there rubadub

Did anything change in the legislation recently? Not that I'm aware. If I understand this right, there is no grey area. Everything with a motor is a mechanically propelled vehicle for which you need insurance and tax and a license and need to wear a helmet and can't go on the pavement or in a cycle lane. This includes all electrical scooters, hover boards, eBikes, etc. So a garda can stop anyone riding on any of these on the public road and confiscate the vehicle and fine the user.

The only exception is the pedelec, an eBike that has a motor of max 250W, the motor only starts working once you start pedaling and the motor cuts out when you reach a speed of 25km/h. This has 100% the same status as an ordinary push bike, so you can ride in cycle lanes