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The Dilemma of the Undecideds in the abortion referendum

1911131415

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭DarkScar


    Overheal wrote: »
    Then, what does it mean?
    Holy cow. You don't actually know what "abortion on demand" means...
    You go in, you ask for an abortion when there's no foetal abnormalities, no risk to health of mother through pregnancy, that kind of thing, and you get an abortion.
    You could look it up too if you want more about it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭DarkScar


    Overheal wrote: »
    That’s fine, because nowhere did I ask for someone’s life story.
    Lame deflection.
    You did ask for them to state their position before they're are permitted to refute your argument though. Why don't you answer that instead of having a crisis about me using one mildly sarcastic phrase?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,174 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    DarkScar wrote: »
    Holy cow. You don't actually know what "abortion on demand" means...
    You go in, you ask for an abortion when there's no foetal abnormalities, no risk to health of mother through pregnancy, that kind of thing, and you get an abortion.
    You could look it up too if you want more about it?
    That seems to be abortion on request, not on demand. By your own definition you ask for it, you don’t demand it. Then you hop and skip to getting an abortion somehow, forgetting all the steps in between like the right of a doctor to refuse the procedure and to ask questions.

    If that’s your definition of abortion on demand (ask for abortion, ????, profit!) then the phrase certainly does seem misleading and farcical.


  • Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭DarkScar


    Overheal
    So, you will say what it doesn’t mean, but not what it does mean?
    The bit about going in to the doctor and asking for an abortion isn't saying what it is? The bit about getting an abortion isn't saying what it is?
    Really?
    Are you not embarrassed even attempting this level of stalling nonsense?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,174 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    DarkScar wrote: »
    Lame deflection.
    You did ask for them to state their position before they're are permitted to refute your argument though. Why don't you answer that instead of having a crisis about me using one mildly sarcastic phrase?

    I didn’t say anyone needed my permission to try and refute my arguments, just that in the interest of a more worthwhile and constructive discussion we might hear what the alternate viewpoint is, not just why one viewpoint is wrong in your opinion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭DarkScar


    Overheal wrote: »
    That seems to be abortion on request, not on demand. By your own definition you ask for it, you don’t demand it. Then you hop and skip to getting an abortion somehow, forgetting all the steps in between like the right of a doctor to refuse the procedure and to ask questions.

    If that’s your definition of abortion on demand (ask for abortion, ????, profit!) then the phrase certainly does seem misleading and farcical.
    Oh look, he replaced some of my stuff with ???? and "profit" and now he'll pretend that's what I said. How cute.
    You want to call what is worldwide referred to as "on demand" as "on request" then that's up to you. Write your own dictionary, nobody's stopping you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,174 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    DarkScar wrote: »
    The bit about going in to the doctor and asking for an abortion isn't saying what it is? The bit about getting an abortion isn't saying what it is?
    Really?
    Are you not embarrassed even attempting this level of stalling nonsense?

    Misread that post, hence I deleted that response and updated my reply above.

    And as I said, asking for an abortion is a request not a demand, and “getting an abortion” seems to skip a lot of steps in the process, in reality.


  • Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭DarkScar


    Overheal wrote: »
    I didn’t say anyone needed my permission to try and refute my arguments, just that in the interest of a more worthwhile and constructive discussion we might here what the alternate viewpoint is, not just why one viewpoint is wrong in your opinion.
    We might. But why are you so insistent on it? Your argument is blown out of the water. Now you're just flailing for purchase as you think you can generate some line of attack. But goddam got no material to work with.
    Awful isn't it?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,174 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    DarkScar wrote: »
    Oh look, he replaced some of my stuff with ???? and "profit" and now he'll pretend that's what I said. How cute.
    You want to call what is worldwide referred to as "on demand" as "on request" then that's up to you. Write your own dictionary, nobody's stopping you.

    Well, you haven’t filled in what’s in the “????” Just that she can request an abortion - and then she gets an abortion. Do you think it will be this straightforward? You didn’t even bother to mention the 72 hour waiting period, or the doctors right of refusal.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭DarkScar


    Overheal wrote: »
    Misread that post, hence I deleted that response and updated my reply above.

    And as I said, asking for an abortion is a request not a demand, and “getting an abortion” seems to skip a lot of steps in the process, in reality.
    So when you asked what "abortion on demand" is you wanted a 200 page technical reference? How convenient it allows you to pretend the explanation I gave you wan't accurate. Anybody might think it was but you had to make up some nonsense to make it look like it wasn't.
    On yer bike. You're flailing and it ain't pretty.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,174 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    DarkScar wrote: »
    We might. But why are you so insistent on it? Your argument is blown out of the water. Now you're just flailing for purchase as you think you can generate some line of attack. But goddam got no material to work with.
    Awful isn't it?

    I don’t see how my argument is “blown out of the water?” If it were, I would concede that a fetus is both alive and a person - that would really be quite the blowout. As it is however, I haven’t seen an argument that establishes that. Much less any argument that refutes my view that a fetus is neither alive or a sovereign person.


  • Registered Users Posts: 226 ✭✭DarkScar


    It's OK, you can keep it. You're not actually saying anything and you completely know it Overheal.
    When there was an actual discussion here instead of your last few vacuous posts you got slaughtered.
    Not interested in how long you can keep typing the same twaddle to be honest.
    Ta ra.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,174 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    DarkScar wrote: »
    So when you asked what "abortion on demand" is you wanted a 200 page technical reference? How convenient it allows you to pretend the explanation I gave you wan't accurate. Anybody might think it was but you had to make up some nonsense to make it look like it wasn't.

    No need for a 200-page technical reference, just a clear definition for what you think abortion on demand is, from start to finish, thanks.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,174 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    DarkScar wrote: »
    It's OK, you can keep it. You're not actually saying anything and you completely know it Overheal.
    When there was an actual discussion here instead of your last few vacuous posts you got slaughtered.
    Not interested in how long you can keep typing the same twaddle to be honest.
    Ta ra.

    You were never forced to agree with or attack my view. That was your choice to post a bunch of vacuous nonsense about fetuses in jars and elephants.

    Do you consider the fetus to be a living being?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,639 ✭✭✭spacecoyote


    DarkScar wrote: »
    It's a fairly tedious ploy when somebody's been soundly beaten in an argument to take a few words completely out of context and chuck them out there as if they didn't make complete sense when they were originally used.
    I could do the same with your posts, but, you know what, I'm not that petty.

    I really hope the irony of that post wasnt lost on you because it's so damn delicious!!!! I actually laughed out loud on the luas & got a few strange looks when I read it.

    For reasons beyond comprehension Overheal, Arthur etc... have persisted with their back & forth with you. For every argument youve attempted to make they've offered clarifications & answers whilst you appear to be spending all your posts attempting verbal gymnastics to catch people out in a technicality of grammar or on an arbitrary term or definition.

    I'm guessing at this stage that youre purely a troll because you're not really offering anything to the discussion.

    You claim you support abortion up to 20 weeks, but are going to vote NO for no real reason other than "I'll vote YES at some later date" as if this is the start of our annual abortion vote cycle.

    How anyone can claim they support abortion & vote NO is beyond my comprehension


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,322 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Yes vote done :) looking fairly busy already hopefully a good sign of high turnout in Dublin


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 828 ✭✭✭JaMarcus


    I submitted my RFA2 form on the 8th May (by e-mail, I called them first to confirm they accepted e-mail submissions) to change my address and go on the supplemental register. Got up early to vote in my local polling station, and my name is nowhere to be found on their register :mad:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,174 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    JaMarcus wrote: »
    I submitted my RFA2 form on the 8th May (by e-mail, I called them first to confirm they accepted e-mail submissions) to change my address and go on the supplemental register. Got up early to vote in my local polling station, and my name is nowhere to be found on their register :mad:

    Can you go to the polling station of your last address then?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,625 ✭✭✭fergus1001


    JaMarcus wrote:
    I submitted my RFA2 form on the 8th May (by e-mail, I called them first to confirm they accepted e-mail submissions) to change my address and go on the supplemental register. Got up early to vote in my local polling station, and my name is nowhere to be found on their register

    we're you voting yes or no ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 828 ✭✭✭JaMarcus


    Overheal wrote: »
    Can you go to the polling station of your last address then?

    It's in a different county, down the country. Can't head down today.
    fergus1001 wrote: »
    we're you voting yes or no ?

    Yes.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭AnneFrank


    I just cast my vote.
    No, choose life.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,174 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    JaMarcus wrote: »
    It's in a different county, down the country. Can't head down today.

    Yes.

    Nothing the polling station could do?

    How did you vote in the last referendum


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 828 ✭✭✭JaMarcus


    Overheal wrote: »
    Nothing the polling station could do?

    How did you vote in the last referendum

    No, they just gave me a phone number to call. So I'm waiting until 9am to call and see if there's anything that can be done.

    I didn't vote last time around.


  • Registered Users Posts: 545 ✭✭✭zeebre12


    I'm voting YES. I don't have an issue with the abortion legislation proposed. My position is as plain as day. It's a women's choice, a fetus becomes human some where after 16 weeks, I fully support the proposed legislation.


    Your voting no but can't explain why.
    So you have no problem for a woman to have an abortion at 15 weeks then? It's not life?


  • Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 12,739 Mod ✭✭✭✭cournioni


    Made my decision to vote No after a lot of thought. Not ideal but I feel that there have to be other solutions to protecting the mothers health without threatening the life of other unborn by Repeal of the 8th.

    The key factor in my decision is that I absolutely disagree with Abortion on Demand. Not acceptable to deliberately kill inside or outside of the womb.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,174 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    zeebre12 wrote: »
    So you have no problem for a woman to have an abortion at 15 weeks then? It's not life?

    Seems like you’re begging the question: how do you define life in this situation? When in your view does the life of the unborn begin?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,174 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    cournioni wrote: »
    Made my decision to vote No after a lot of thought. Not ideal but I feel that there have to be other solutions to protecting the mothers health without threatening the life of other unborn by Repeal of the 8th.

    The key factor in my decision is that I absolutely disagree with Abortion on Demand.

    Abortion on Demand is what, exactly? There are no waiting periods? Doctors have no right of refusal?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,639 ✭✭✭spacecoyote


    cournioni wrote: »
    Made my decision to vote No after a lot of thought. Not ideal but I feel that there have to be other solutions to protecting the mothers health without threatening the life of other unborn by Repeal of the 8th.

    The key factor in my decision is that I absolutely disagree with Abortion on Demand.

    You do know that a NO vote changes nothing & maintains the status quo, so you're offering no route to protect a mothers life outside of todays laws.

    Seems like the NO campaigns branding was effective with the "on Demand" badge


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,625 ✭✭✭fergus1001


    JaMarcus wrote:
    Yes.


    you can have one of my polling cards in that case !


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,400 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    cournioni wrote: »
    Made my decision to vote No after a lot of thought. Not ideal but I feel that there have to be other solutions to protecting the mothers health without threatening the life of other unborn by Repeal of the 8th.

    The key factor in my decision is that I absolutely disagree with Abortion on Demand. Not acceptable to deliberately kill inside or outside of the womb.


    A very irrational decision.

    There is no way under the current Constitutional provision to protect the health of the woman. It is complete spin and lies from the NO camp to suggest otherwise. Neither is there a chance of another referendum for 15 years if this one is defeated, so your daughters, sisters, nieces and their friends will run the risk of being the next Savita if this referendum is defeated.

    If the referendum is passed, there is the possibility of the Government's legislative proposals being defeated by a combination of SF, FF, rural Independents and FG rebels and a more restrictive regime being put in place. That is by far the best chance of you getting what you seek, so the only rational logical decision for you is to vote YES.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,400 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    cournioni wrote: »
    I absolutely disagree with Abortion on Demand. .



    Do you honestly believe that women are going to rock up to their doctors and say "Hey, kill the baby inside me"?

    This is a difficult decision for any women and the idea that they would take it lightly is a misogynist insult.


  • Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 12,739 Mod ✭✭✭✭cournioni


    You do know that a NO vote changes nothing & maintains the status quo, so you're offering no route to protect a mothers life outside of todays laws.

    Seems like the NO campaigns branding was effective with the "on Demand" badge
    I am fully aware of what I am voting for thank you. I am far from happy with the options available to me. Status quo isn’t good, but neither is the alternative.

    A Yes vote does not do enough to protect the unborn. I don’t want any part in the killing of a healthy unborn.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,269 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    @Overheal and DarkScar. Don't post in this thread again. Take your spat to PM if you really want to carry on. We don't have time to be dealing with all the reported posts from both of you.

    Everyone else, be nice.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 495 ✭✭bleary


    A no vote for other alternatives is equivalent to a no vote for abolishing the Senate. All the incumbents were so keen to reform as long as they were fighting for the status quo.

    Nothing has happened since that vote. It will be the same if no vote wins today. A no vote means we are all grand with the current situation. If you want any change vote yes.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,625 ✭✭✭fergus1001


    I'm expecting a higher turn out now because the weather is so nice this is bad news for the no side as it will bring out the young vote


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    cournioni wrote: »
    Made my decision to vote No after a lot of thought.

    The key factor in my decision is that I absolutely disagree with Abortion on Demand.

    Not sure why that took any thought - abortion without restriction up to 12 weeks has been the proposal since before the referendum was even announced.

    I am pleased with this, since it sidestepped most of the No campaigns nonsense completely. They seem to have been preparing for a "hard cases" referendum, and were caught on the hop by the straightforward nature of the citizen's assembly proposal.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    cournioni wrote: »
    Made my decision to vote No after a lot of thought. Not ideal but I feel that there have to be other solutions to protecting the mothers health without threatening the life of other unborn by Repeal of the 8th.

    The key factor in my decision is that I absolutely disagree with Abortion on Demand. Not acceptable to deliberately kill inside or outside of the womb.

    Your dilemma is the dilemma of the majority.

    Some will come down Yes, some like you, No.

    Neither has been given a choice to legislate as the country wants to legislate. Leo and Simon have sold them a pup


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Neither has been given a choice to legislate as the country wants to legislate.

    The country doesn't legislate. The Oireachtas legislates.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    fergus1001 wrote: »
    I'm expecting a higher turn out now because the weather is so nice this is bad news for the no side as it will bring out the young vote


    Fake news withdrawn


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Your dilemma is the dilemma of the majority.

    Polling back as far as January said more people agreed with the 12 week proposal than disagreed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    The country doesn't legislate. The Oireachtas legislates.

    ...on behalf of the people.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    ...on behalf of the people.

    Yes, precisely what will happen in this case if Yes wins.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Yes, precisely what will happen in this case if Yes wins.

    Technically any majority is the countries view. Which ought the politicians seek for by way of the choice offered

    60/40

    80/20


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Not if that major shindig in the Phoenix Park, organized by No, has anything to do with it.


    They're going to ply the students with free beer from 7 to 10?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Which ought the politicians seek for by way of the choice offered

    60/40

    80/20

    Neither - the politicians should offer the best solution, and let the people approve or not.

    Trying to game the referendum to make it pass gives us nonsense like the 5 year condition in the Constitution for divorce, which requires us to have another referendum to delete it later.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    They're going to ply the students with free beer from 7 to 10?


    Fake news - sorry


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    They're going to ply the students with free beer from 7 to 10?

    I think the idea is that if the students are in the Park at all today, they are not at home voting in Ballydehob.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭antiskeptic


    Neither - the politicians should offer the best solution, and let the people approve or not.

    Lets suppose a proposition was posed for hard cases and that attracted an 80/20 result yes. And the current attracts 60/40 yes.

    Would you find the former a better result?

    Thought experiment


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,857 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    blanch152 wrote: »

    If the referendum is passed, there is the possibility of the Government's legislative proposals being defeated by a combination of SF, FF, rural Independents and FG rebels and a more restrictive regime being put in place. That is by far the best chance of you getting what you seek, so the only rational logical decision for you is to vote YES.

    Only in the sense that there is a 'possibility' Dublin won't win the Leinster Football Championship this year. For the legislation to go down would necessitate one of two extremely unlikely developments: Sin Fein not supporting it or the vast majority of (supposedly) undecided Fine Gael TDs voting against...


  • Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 12,739 Mod ✭✭✭✭cournioni


    Not sure why that took any thought - abortion without restriction up to 12 weeks has been the proposal since before the referendum was even announced.

    I am pleased with this, since it sidestepped most of the No campaigns nonsense completely. They seem to have been preparing for a "hard cases" referendum, and were caught on the hop by the straightforward nature of the citizen's assembly proposal.
    Clearly because there were other factors at play. Abortion without restriction is simply the dealbreaker that could not be overlooked in the end.


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