The Dilemma of the Undecideds in the abortion referendum

Hitman3000

antiskeptic wrote:

I'm not sure what special contribution an cardiologist has to make.

Well the testimony of a Nurse..Noel Pattern ... sorry I mean Porter was good enough for John McGuirk and the No campaign.

Owryan

Haven't voted yet, I was an undecided until very recently and to an extent I still am. But I will vote.

I am in favour of repeal but opposed to the "any reason" 12 week limit.

I have no problem with allowing for abortion at any stage in the case of FFA or where there is a risk to the mother.

I've had issues with both the yes and the no sides. I found out yesterday that no campaigners were outside my kids school telling the kids that if their parents voted yes then it means no more babies. Twice, the yes side told me that as a man my views were not important.

The last occured when I asked a yes campaigner what was a crisis pregnancy, they said it was any pregnancy that the mother did not want to go through with. So I asked if the father didn't have a say, and they simply said he hadn't as it's her body.

I just want this crap to be over tbh.

ArthurDayne

antiskeptic wrote: »

Think your conflating democracy (in which everyones vote is equal) with wisdom. Per definition, an older person will, on average, be wiser than a younger one.

Yeah because Brexit really demonstrated that . . .

listermint

Owryan wrote: »

Haven't voted yet, I was an undecided until very recently and to an extent I still am. But I will vote.

I am in favour of repeal but opposed to the "any reason" 12 week limit.

I have no problem with allowing for abortion at any stage in the case of FFA or where there is a risk to the mother.

I've had issues with both the yes and the no sides. I found out yesterday that no campaigners were outside my kids school telling the kids that if their parents voted yes then it means no more babies. Twice, the yes side told me that as a man my views were not important.

The last occured when I asked a yes campaigner what was a crisis pregnancy, they said it was any pregnancy that the mother did not want to go through with. So I asked if the father didn't have a say, and they simply said he hadn't as it's her body.

I just want this crap to be over tbh.

And she was entirely wrong with her sentiment. Of course the father has a say, and in a properly functioning communicating relationship he would have his say. That majority of cases this would be true.

On the opposite side of course there is some relationships which are not like that at all, highly dysfunctional. And you could argue that if the women in it doesnt want her body practically held hostage for near on a year then so be it. I come at if from a male perspective so neither you nor i can imagine having to hand over your body for 9 months without your total say. These things happen.


I guess if you are a guy dont be having unprotected sex with the opposite sex unless you feel you both are willing to take on the burden of children.

That is entirely in the mans control tbf.

Billgirlylegs

cournioni wrote: »

Just assessing all of the options available. Not all of us have the time to look into these things intensely from day one.

Not much to it.
Life is sacred from moment of conception - Vote No
Life isn't sacred from moment of conception - Vote Yes

Both are equally valid viewpoints.

No grey area, no need to squabble with conscience.

Pick one and vote.
Then you carry on with whatever else takes up your time.

listermint

Billgirlylegs wrote: »

Not much to it.
Life is sacred from moment of conception - Vote No
Life isn't sacred from moment of conception - Vote Yes

Both are equally valid viewpoints.

No grey area, no need to squabble with conscience.

Pick one and vote.
Then you carry on with whatever else takes up your time.

lol,

Thats quality word play...

SusieBlue

antiskeptic wrote: »

Think your conflating democracy (in which everyones vote is equal) with wisdom. Per definition, an older person will, on average, be wiser than a younger one.

Except that's not what s/he meant at all. It was meant in an insulting, dismissive way.
I may be younger but I'm certainly not naive. And my opinion is no less valid that hers or yours.

GreeBo

cournioni wrote: »

Oh dear. You should read my previous posts then. I have stated that I am unhappy with the options in front of me.

Yet voted in the only way that precludes changes to the options?

AnneFrank

SusieBlue wrote: »

Except that's not what s/he meant at all. It was meant in an insulting, dismissive way.
I may be younger but I'm certainly not naive. And my opinion is no less valid that hers or yours.

It's funny how you know things about me and read things that simply aren't there, even though, thankfully we have never met. Also like ...... knows they are older than me, i find this stalking pretty weird to be honest

.......

This post has been deleted.

blanch152

Owryan wrote: »

Haven't voted yet, I was an undecided until very recently and to an extent I still am. But I will vote.

I am in favour of repeal but opposed to the "any reason" 12 week limit.

I have no problem with allowing for abortion at any stage in the case of FFA or where there is a risk to the mother.

I've had issues with both the yes and the no sides. I found out yesterday that no campaigners were outside my kids school telling the kids that if their parents voted yes then it means no more babies. Twice, the yes side told me that as a man my views were not important.

The last occured when I asked a yes campaigner what was a crisis pregnancy, they said it was any pregnancy that the mother did not want to go through with. So I asked if the father didn't have a say, and they simply said he hadn't as it's her body.

I just want this crap to be over tbh.

Do you want a say or a veto?

Any decent woman would listen to her partner's views, but ultimately the decision would be hers and his consent would not be needed.

AnneFrank

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Ok so seen as you are stalking me, what age did i say ?
Do you also believe everything you read ?

SusieBlue

AnneFrank wrote: »

It's funny how you know things about me and read things that simply aren't there, even though, thankfully we have never met. Also like ...... knows they are older than me, i find this stalking pretty weird to be honest

You have a very bad habit of accidentally posting in provocative manner, and then playing he bleeding heart when people get the wrong end of the stick.

Its really good to hear you meant no offense or ill will with that post though, even though that's how it came across, so consider your apology accepted.

I wouldn't ever be worried about meeting you in real life, I don't run in such intolerant circles. So all good there.

Owryan

blanch152 wrote: »

Do you want a say or a veto?

Any decent woman would listen to her partner's views, but ultimately the decision would be hers and his consent would not be needed.

I want to see a repeal of the 8th, but I do not want unlimited abortion for the the first 12 weeks as planned. More than happy for abortion in specific circumstances.

So, it's probably vote yes but lobby my TDs, 2 of them are against abortion as it is.

.......

This post has been deleted.

Leonard Hofstadter

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Meanwhile: Strong turnout reported in first hours of voting

If Dublin votes at General Election levels, it'll be a big Yes win.

I wouldn't be so sure. Apparently a lot of farmers are voting - and they're not going to be helping the yes side.

All will be revealed tonight on the Late Late Show for anyone who is interested.

oscarBravo

Owryan wrote: »

I want to see a repeal of the 8th, but I do not want unlimited abortion for the the first 12 weeks as planned. More than happy for abortion in specific circumstances.

So, it's probably vote yes but lobby my TDs, 2 of them are against abortion as it is.

That's an eminently sensible approach.

MideBear

I was undecided for a long time and had thought long and hard about quite a few angles to it all and read and listened to a great many perspectives. I have come to a place where I think I will vote yes even though I personally think abortion is an abhorrent practice.

Currently abortion is banned out right. Girls and women must travel and very little support is given to them.

I think that as a society we should be able to craft laws that govern the practice - and this is actually what we are being asked.

If abortion were made legal here, those people who are dead set against it do not have to avail of it and those due to circumstance who may need the procedure do not have to travel and could receive the care and support at home here

Loafing Oaf

Odds on yes now in to 1/10. Evidently punters don't see any indications of a last-minute turnaround...

antiskeptic

SusieBlue wrote: »

Except that's not what s/he meant at all. It was meant in an insulting, dismissive way.
I may be younger but I'm certainly not naive. And my opinion is no less valid that hers or yours.

Said a medical student to an experienced doctor (in an average sense)

As I say, your opinion is as valid as mine w.r.t. a democratic setting. Not in all settings tho' (assuming an average situarion wrt our relative degrees of wisdom.)

ArthurDayne

MideBear wrote: »

I was undecided for a long time and had thought long and hard about quite a few angles to it all and read and listened to a great many perspectives. I have come to a place where I think I will vote yes even though I personally think abortion is an abhorrent practice.

Currently abortion is banned out right. Girls and women must travel and very little support is given to them.

I think that as a society we should be able to craft laws that govern the practice - and this is actually what we are being asked.

If abortion were made legal here, those people who are dead set against it do not have to avail of it and those due to circumstance who may need the procedure do not have to travel and could receive the care and support at home here

Absolutely right. I don't think anyone ever feels truly "comfortable" with the practice of abortion, but as you say, we need a more nuanced and detailed framework which won't be as stifling as a Constitutional article and which can address the various circumstances.

It would be great if you could vote Yes today -- let's give this emotive and complex matter the legal framework it needs.

AnneFrank

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Again not what i said, you must have Susie's condition.
So what age am i o' oracle ?

SusieBlue

antiskeptic wrote: »

Said a medical student to an experienced doctor (in an average sense)

As I say, your opinion is as valid as mine w.r.t. a democratic setting. Not in all settings tho' (assuming an average situarion wrt our relative degrees of wisdom.)

I'm not entertaining this talking in riddles nonsense.

antiskeptic

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Odds on yes now in to 1/10. Evidently punters don't see any indications of a last-minute turnaround...

Bet levels are evenly split. Apparently half do.

Noo

Owryan wrote: »

I want to see a repeal of the 8th, but I do not want unlimited abortion for the the first 12 weeks as planned. More than happy for abortion in specific circumstances.

So, it's probably vote yes but lobby my TDs, 2 of them are against abortion as it is.

This! A million times this!
I have already said it to NO voters who insist on voting no because they want to hold out for better legislation. You had 35 years to get better legislation, all voting no will do is remove the possibilty of opening up the floor to further debate on the exact fine print of any new laws. The 8th needs to be removed before legislation can be discussed.

oscarBravo

antiskeptic wrote: »

I'm not sure what special contribution an cardiologist has to make.

I'm content to accept the broad consensus of OB/GYNs instead, if you prefer.

GreeBo

AnneFrank wrote: »

Ok so seen as you are stalking me, what age did i say ?
Do you also believe everything you read ?

Is your argument actually based on telling people that they should not believe your own posts?

MideBear

ArthurDayne wrote: »

Absolutely right. I don't think anyone ever feels truly "comfortable" with the practice of abortion, but as you say, we need a more nuanced and detailed framework which won't be as stifling as a Constitutional article and which can address the various circumstances.

It would be great if you could vote Yes today -- let's give this emotive and complex matter the legal framework it needs.

I think I might have to. I don't feel comfortable inflicting my values on YOU if you have differing ones.

MideBear

MideBear wrote: »

I think I might have to. I don't feel comfortable inflicting my values on YOU if you have differing ones.

As mature a discussion as I've seen on this topic

antiskeptic

oscarBravo wrote: »

I'm content to accept the broad consensus of OB/GYNs instead, if you prefer.

You misunderstand the analogy. Medical student view less valid than an experienced doctor view in a medical setting.

This is a life experience / moral / worldview / political / legal / medical / spiritual / etc/ etc. setting.

With all due, what has an 18 year old male got to base his views on.

But its a democratic setting thst counts today All X's are equal

oscarBravo

antiskeptic wrote: »

You misunderstand the analogy.

No; I was just having some fun with it, rather than indulge the ageism. I'd hate to miss an opportunity to point out that the broad consensus of the medical profession is that abortion is an important option in reproductive healthcare.

AnneFrank

oscarBravo wrote: »

No; I was just having some fun with it, rather than indulge the ageism. I'd hate to miss an opportunity to point out that the broad consensus of the medical profession is that abortion is an important option in reproductive healthcare.

so killing a foetus is healthcare ?
Not sure i can agree with that.

antiskeptic

MideBear wrote: »

I think I might have to. I don't feel comfortable inflicting my values on YOU if you have differing ones.

A soft yes shares the same values more than a soft no

robarmstrong

AnneFrank wrote: »

so killing a foetus is healthcare ?
Not sure i can agree with that.

It is when said foetus is doomed for a miscarriage which could potentially lead to sepsis among other serious issues.

antiskeptic

oscarBravo wrote: »

No; I was just having some fun with it, rather than indulge the ageism. I'd hate to miss an opportunity to point out that the broad consensus of the medical profession is that abortion is an important option in reproductive healthcare.

They are entitled to view this as a healthcare issue. Indeed, they are more likely to.

Doesnt in itself give the idea a shred of validity though.

oscarBravo

AnneFrank wrote: »

so killing a foetus is healthcare ?
Not sure i can agree with that.

Well, here's the thing: when some randomer on the Internet believes one thing, and the majority of medical professionals believe the opposite, I know which of those will influence my thinking more.

Noo

AnneFrank wrote: »

so killing a foetus is healthcare ?
Not sure i can agree with that.

So when a woman is in agony miscarrying but due to feotal heartbeat has to endure the agony for a further week, in which time due to the nature of the miscarriage contracts septicaemia, which cannot be treated due to the dying (but no fully dead yet) foetus she then goes into septic shock and the woman dies....this has nothing to do with her healthcare?

antiskeptic

oscarBravo wrote: »

Well, here's the thing: when some randomer on the Internet believes one thing, and the majority of medical professionals believe the opposite, I know which of those will influence my thinking more.

Says some randomer on the internet!

oscarBravo

antiskeptic wrote: »

Says some randomer on the internet!

Touché, but it's not exactly a rebuttal.

antiskeptic

antiskeptic wrote: »

You misunderstand the analogy. Medical student view less valid than an experienced doctor view in a medical setting.

This is a life experience / moral / worldview / political / legal / medical / spiritual / etc/ etc. setting.

With all due, what has an 18 year old male got to base his views on.

But its a democratic setting thst counts today All X's are equal

So as a male.


Were this vote had when I was 18 I would have had the experience of seeing my parents not told that my sister had a FFA, and could not survive outside the womb.

I would have known that I saw it hidden to prevent them trying to travel

I would have seen them have to bring her into a world to fight for every breath until her little body gave up.

I would have seen the effects that had on my parents.

I would have had the experience of being told that I would never see my little sister and the effect that had on 4 year old me (and the anxiety I have around my own kids 33 years later)

I would have known that the kindest thing to do would have helped my parents by not forcing them through that (and risking my mom)
I would have known that the kindest thing would have been to not force my sister through that hell for her tiny life.

So, with all due respect, I say f@@k those who think that men can not have a valid opinion on this issue and I damn well know which way I'm voting

antiskeptic

Noo wrote: »

So when a woman is in agony miscarrying but due to feotal heartbeat has to endure the agony for a further week, in which time due to the nature of the miscarriage contracts septicaemia, which cannot be treated due to the dying (but no fully dead yet) foetus she then goes into septic shock and the woman dies....this has nothing to do with her healthcare?

The tragedy is she didnt have a doctor for whom a fetal heatbeat wasnt an impediment.

A dr. Trevor Hayes, for example.

But go shead and blame the 8th with your x

antiskeptic

Deleted User wrote: »

So as a male.


Were this vote had when I was 18 I would have had the experience of seeing my parents not told that my sister had a FFA, and could not survive outside the womb.

I would have known that I saw it hidden to prevent them trying to travel

I would have seen them have to bring her into a world to fight for every breath until her little body gave up.

I would have seen the effects that had on my parents.

I would have had the experience of being told that I would never see my little sister and the effect that had on 4 year old me (and the anxiety I have around my own kids 33 years later)

I would have known that the kindest thing to do would have helped my parents by not forcing them through that (and risking my mom)
I would have known that the kindest thing would have been to not force my sister through that hell for her tiny life.

So, with all due respect, I say f@@k those who think that men can not have a valid opinion on this issue and I damn well know which way I'm voting

I was dealing with the average state of affairs. Apols for the offence

AnneFrank

Noo wrote: »

So when a woman is in agony miscarrying but due to feotal heartbeat has to endure the agony for a further week, in which time due to the nature of the miscarriage contracts septicaemia, which cannot be treated due to the dying (but no fully dead yet) foetus she then goes into septic shock and the woman dies....this has nothing to do with her healthcare?

Hardcase, and the legislation should have allowed for this, not the ultra liberal nonsense that has been given to us.
Most abortions are healthy babies from healthy mothers, but if you can vote yes to that fair dues it's democracy.
But i can't

antiskeptic

oscarBravo wrote: »

Touché, but it's not exactly a rebuttal.

The rebuttal was there. You just didnt attend it. Supposing this a healthcare issue (at root) isnt validated by either you or doctors claiming it to be.

Health is of course involved. But that doesnt make health the root.

Given we're pronouncing on life, you can't avoid it being an existential issue as well. "What is human life"

Its right in there in the mix

Not typically forefront in the 18 yr. old male mind

AnneFrank

AnneFrank wrote: »

Hardcase, and the legislation should have allowed for this, not the ultra liberal nonsense that has been given to us.
Most abortions are healthy babies from healthy mothers, but if you can vote yes to that fair dues it's democracy.
But i can't

The 8th prevents any of that legislation.

Noo

antiskeptic wrote: »

The tragedy is she didnt have a doctor for whom a fetal heatbeat wasnt an impediment.

Because of the uncertainty of the 8th.
There is also a story on In Her Shoes that was the same (except with micarrying twins). One died first and they couldnt remove the placenta for risk to the second twin (who still had a heartbeat but who was going also die too). The placenta was left to rot inside her for a week and she and the doctors knew the outcome. She actually doesnt criticise the medical staff because they knew exactly what was going to happen but their hands were tied. It was only when she was about to die from septicaemia did the medical staff intervene. Luckily she lived to tell the tale and continue to raise the 8 year she had to leave at home for 5 weeks while she recovered.

If she'd had an abortion when the twins were being miscarried, that traumatic experience would not have happened.

On what planet is that nothing to do with healthcare?

Noo

AnneFrank wrote: »

Hardcase, and the legislation should have allowed for this, not the ultra liberal nonsense that has been given to us.
Most abortions are healthy babies from healthy mothers, but if you can vote yes to that fair dues it's democracy.
But i can't

Unfortunately I cant vote yes either. As an irish woman of child bearing age living on the other side of the world I am not afforded the right to vote in a referendum that affects the women closest to me.

antiskeptic

Noo wrote: »

Because of the uncertainty of the 8th.
There is also a story on In Her Shoes that was the same (except with micarrying twins). One died first and they couldnt remove the placenta for risk to the second twin (who still had a heartbeat but who was going also die too). The placenta was left to rot inside her for a week and she and the doctors knew the outcome. She actually doesnt criticise the medical staff because they knew exactly what was going to happen but their hands were tied. It was only when she was about to die from septicaemia did the medical staff intervene. Luckily she lived to tell the tale and continue to raise the 8 year she had to leave at home for 5 weeks while she recovered.

If she'd had an abortion when the twins were being miscarried, that traumatic experience would not have happened.

On what planet is that nothing to do with healthcare?

No one said nothing to with. But not by any means solely

If one doctor can be clear fetal heartbeat not an impefiment then so can all

Guideline from medical council: fetal heartbeat not an impediment.

Dr. Hayes hasnt been struck off

oscarBravo

antiskeptic wrote: »

The rebuttal was there. You just didnt attend it. Supposing this a healthcare issue (at root) isnt validated by either you or doctors claiming it to be.

That's not a rebuttal. That's just you disagreeing with doctors about what is and isn't a healthcare issue.

Doctors, eh? What would they know about healthcare?

Noo

antiskeptic wrote: »

No one said nothing to with. But not by any means solely

If one doctor can be clear fetal heartbeat not an impefiment then so can all

Guideline from medical council: fetal heartbeat not an impediment.

Dr. Hayes hasnt been struck off

AnneFrank wrote: »

so killing a foetus is healthcare ?
Not sure i can agree with that.

Well they didnt say "nothing to do with" but made their opinion quite clear.