The 8th amendment referendum - part 4

antiskeptic

namloc1980 wrote: »

What??

Women who can't get an abortion here when our new laws come in will travel to england.

Do you agree that they be forced to travel by our new restrictive abortion laws

namloc1980

antiskeptic wrote: »

Women who can't get an abortion here when our new laws come in will travel to england.

Do you agree that they be forced to travel by our new restrictive abortion laws

In what circumstances? I support repeal and allow our legislators to, you know, legislate.

Try_harder

Has Cora been let out yet?

Conservatory

antiskeptic wrote: »

He's back!

Well think of it. People must be so stupid that they can travel all the way to the polling station but if a poster is 2 meters closer to the polling station than legally required they will be bullied into voting no. The police need to be called.

Then spend months telling people trust women. What if they are pregnant but see a poster.

cournioni

jill_valentine wrote: »

But you are not opposing women openly travelling for what, you are telling me, you consider a murder.

Why not?

Have I not already answered this? I have views against abortion on demand (ie perfectly healthy unborn and mother) no matter where it is. Do I need to keep repeating? The constitution allows it, and I don’t agree with it.

Sheeps

Just another yes voter assuming that someone who believes that all no voters have religious foundations to the belief that a babies right to life is just as important as the mothers.

nullzero

Hellrazer wrote: »

That's quite possible. But as I said before you can still be pro womens choice but not necessarily agree with abortion.

What one woman chooses to do in the case of an unwanted pregnancy shouldn't really be anyones elses concern.

At least you're being civil which I greatly appreciate as well as your right to your opinion. Take care.

Trasna1

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Just out of curiousity if anyone knows.....

IF the Yes side wins, will there be redundancies in the IONA Institute? Baptism is no longer going to be required for entry to Catholic schools, Divorce is established, SSM is here, and maybe the eighth will be repealed.

I'd be interested to know what their next crusade might be.

The next push will be for Assisted dying and euthanasia. They will take a stand against that, if they are still around. Abortion and keeping the 8th was the thread that holds these organisations together, I suspect without it they will melt away.

nullzero

In relation to the earlier post by the user P_1 does anyone understand how repealing the eight amendment is going to free us from the shackles of an evil foreign empire?
A number of users thanked the post and I'm just curious as to its context.

antiskeptic

namloc1980 wrote: »

In what circumstances? I support repeal and allow our legislators to, you know, legislate.

Our minister has categorically stated our abortion laws wont reflect the english laws. They will be more restrictive.

This means women travelling - to circumvent whatever that restriction is

Abortion up to 6 months easily there. Very restricted grounds here.

Travrelling women.

You sound a bit surprised. You not thought this one thro'

minikin

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

gctest50

Try_harder wrote: »

Has Cora been let out yet?

Has been assimilated by boards.ie servers

circular flexing

antiskeptic wrote: »

Our minister has categorically stated our abortion laws wont reflect the english laws. They will be more restrictive.

This means women travelling - to circumvent whatever that restriction is

Abortion up to 6 months easily there. Very restricted grounds here.

Travrelling women.

You sound a bit surprised. You not thought this one thro'

I'm curious under what exact circumstances you think women would still have to travel.

circular flexing

nullzero wrote: »

In relation to the earlier post by the user P_1 does anyone understand how repealing the eight amendment is going to free us from the shackles of an evil foreign empire?
A number of users thanked the post and I'm just curious as to its context.

I'm going to guess they are talking about the 8th Amendment being heavily influenced by American pro-life groups.

namloc1980

antiskeptic wrote: »

Our minister has categorically stated our abortion laws wont reflect the english laws. They will be more restrictive.

This means women travelling - to circumvent whatever that restriction is

Abortion up to 6 months easily there. Very restricted grounds here.

Travrelling women.

You sound a bit surprised. You not thought this one thro'

Very restricted here??? But the No side say otherwise. You haven't read the heads of the proposed bill have you? Maybe you should do that first.

NuMarvel

Try_harder wrote: »

Has Cora been let out yet?

I think she managed to bargain for her freedom by promising McGuirk a lifetime supply of Skips and vowing never to shop in Tescos again. True story.

nullzero

circular flexing wrote: »

I'm going to guess they are talking about the 8th Amendment being heavily influenced by American pro-life groups.

Is America an evil foreign empire? Was influence from private American organizations arranged at a federal level in America, a country with extremely liberal abortion laws?

antiskeptic

Woman drops the ball and misses the 12 week deadline.

Tests at week 16 show downs syndrome. She decides she wants an abortion but Irish grounds don't allow.

Ryanair

How long do you think the cry goes up "bring them home". Law change...

gctest50

circular flexing wrote: »

I'm going to guess they are talking about the 8th Amendment being heavily influenced by American pro-life groups.

And all the forms of shiny new improved Nazi

Trasna1

antiskeptic wrote: »

Seemingly not. The rise in the UK went from a baseline of 25,000 legal abortions in year 1 after legalisation ... to 167,000 in year 5.

Are we to suppose it took 5 years to convince ca.122, 000 women p.a. to turn away from back street abortions they had long being having.

Or do you suppose something fundamentally changed in that society?

I suspect what happened that in the UK, when women were given the choice and that society considered that choice acceptable they decided on greater numbers to abort unwanted pregnancy. It's not really surprising when you think about it.

If it is legal it's no longer immoral is the culture shift.

Mrsmum

circular flexing wrote: »

I'm curious under what exact circumstances you think women would still have to travel.

Her circumstances change in any department of her life after the 12 week deadline has passed.

NuMarvel

Trasna1 wrote: »

The next push will be for Assisted dying and euthanasia. They will take a stand against that, if they are still around. Abortion and keeping the 8th was the thread that holds these organisations together, I suspect without it they will melt away.

They've spoken out against the Assisted Human Reproduction bill that's being looked at by the Health Committee, and they'll probably stay around for the forseeable future.

But they probably won't have a platform like this or the marriage referendum again, because there isn't any major social issue left that requires a referendum. They've already said they don't oppose blasphemy being taken out of the constitution or the proposed change in the timeframe for divorce. They'll certainly speak out against euthanasia, but that won't need a referendum.

They'll still be around I'm sure, but hopefully their media presence will be more proportionate to the level of support they have.

cournioni

On another note, should the Yes vote pass. Harris and the HSE will have to get their bloody act together. Support for mental health is diabolical so I would hate to see what another complex issue landed at their door will do. Harris claiming to be a bastion for womens health, yet cannot even provide proper cervical checks.

Paranoid Bob

antiskeptic wrote: »

Woman drops the ball and misses the 12 week deadline.

Tests at week 16 show downs syndrome. She decides she wants an abortion but Irish grounds don't allow.

Ryanair

How long do you think the cry goes up "bring them home". Law change...

A very long time.


There is no appetite for eugenics in this country.

_Dara_

cournioni wrote: »

On another note, should the Yes vote pass. Harris and the HSE will have to get their bloody act together. Support for mental health is diabolical so I would hate to see what another complex issue landed at their door will do. Harris claiming to be a bastion for womens health, yet cannot even provide proper cervical checks.

He’s to blame for fuck ups dating back years?

antiskeptic

Trasna1 wrote: »

I suspect what happened that in the UK, when women were given the choice and that society considered that choice acceptable they decided on greater numbers to abort unwanted pregnancy. It's not really surprising when you think about it.

If it is legal it's no longer immoral is the culture shift.

The only logical conclusion. A startling ramp up

Change the goalposts and folk start shooting at the new goal

NuMarvel

antiskeptic wrote: »

Woman drops the ball and misses the 12 week deadline.

Tests at week 16 show downs syndrome. She decides she wants an abortion but Irish grounds don't allow.

Ryanair

How long do you think the cry goes up "bring them home". Law change...

You forget that the Committee already looked at abortions for foetal abnormalities or disabilities and voted against including it in the proposed legislation. They did this knowing it would mean women would continue to travel.

Will someone call for it to be included in future legislation? Almost certainly. Will that call have the support of more than half the TDs and Senators in the Oireachtas? Not any time soon.

Wheeliebin30

cournioni wrote: »

On another note, should the Yes vote pass. Harris and the HSE will have to get their bloody act together. Support for mental health is diabolical so I would hate to see what another complex issue landed at their door will do. Harris claiming to be a bastion for womens health, yet cannot even provide proper cervical checks.

No proper cervical checks?

Lies.

pleas advice

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Abortion will never be mandatory. So at no stage will no voters have to have one or be involved.

nice knocking down of that strawman there

murpho999 wrote: »

...

I fail to see how it can be misused or abused.

Its the fact that it will be used at all, outside of exceptional circumstances, that is the issue

dudara wrote: »

I disagree. There is a not unsubstantial cohort of women who choose not to continue a pregnancy every year. If abortion remains generally illegal, women will turn to any channel they can to access it. This could mean travelling to England or the Netherlands, ordering abortion pills or signing a declaration of rape (especially if there are no consequences). After all, doing the latter would allow you to access safe abortion in your own country.

I thought we should trust women?

antiskeptic

Paranoid Bob wrote: »

A very long time.


There is no appetite for eugenics in this country.

If its possible up to 12 weeks its not that hard to crank it up further

NuMarvel

cournioni wrote: »

On another note, should the Yes vote pass. Harris and the HSE will have to get their bloody act together. Support for mental health is diabolical so I would hate to see what another complex issue landed at their door will do. Harris claiming to be a bastion for womens health, yet cannot even provide proper cervical checks.

It doesn't help that campaigners on the No side denigrate mental health issues with phrases like "vague mental health grounds" or outright saying mental health isn't health.

Paranoid Bob

antiskeptic wrote: »

If its possible up to 12 weeks its not that hard to crank it up further

Yes. Up. Or down. That's the nature of legislation; it changes over time with the will of the population.


Look at it this way; If our birth rate drops too low then there will be a demographic shift. We will have more Muslims arriving and they will elect a government that will make abortion illegal again. So you see that the problem is self-correcting.

antiskeptic

NuMarvel wrote: »

You forget that the Committee already looked at abortions for foetal abnormalities or disabilities and voted against including it in the proposed legislation. They did this knowing it would mean women would continue to travel.

Will someone call for it to be included in future legislation? Almost certainly. Will that call have the support of more than half the TDs and Senators in the Oireachtas? Not any time soon.

Fair point. It just wasnt the impression given with the "bring em home" message.

Lest any yes ve surprised

Sheeps

Does a woman having taken an abortion pill flush the fetus down the toilet or give it a burial? What is the norm?

cournioni

NuMarvel wrote: »

It doesn't help that campaigners on the No side denigrate mental health issues with phrases like "vague mental health grounds" or outright saying mental health isn't health.

It doesn’t, but I am not strictly no side either. Neither side have covered themselves in glory.

Point stands, our Health Service is not fit for purpose.

Hellrazer

antiskeptic wrote: »

Woman drops the ball and misses the 12 week deadline.

Tests at week 16 show downs syndrome. She decides she wants an abortion but Irish grounds don't allow.

Ryanair

How long do you think the cry goes up "bring them home". Law change...

Scenario is quite possible. And the law could possibly change in the future to reflect changes in society.

There are people out there that would be strong enough to get over the fact that their child may be mentally or physically disabled and I commend them for that but the reality is that some people wouldn't be strong enough to raise a child in that situation and would seek a termination at all costs even if it meant travelling. In their case it could be classed as a crisis pregnancy.

But its a choice they make and no one should stop them making that choice.

They should be able to seek that treatment in their own country and shouldn't have to get a Ryanair flight to anywhere.

pleas advice

Paranoid Bob wrote: »

Yes. Up. Or down. That's the nature of legislation; it changes over time with the will of the population.


Look at it this way; If our birth rate drops too low then there will be a demographic shift. We will have more Muslims arriving and they will elect a government that will make abortion illegal again. So you see that the problem is self-correcting.

oh jesus dont!

cournioni

_Dara_ wrote: »

He’s to blame for fuck ups dating back years?

Do you want to include Varadkar too?

pleas advice

Paranoid Bob wrote: »

A very long time.


There is no appetite for eugenics in this country.

aye, but if you don't call it eugenics...

Paranoid Bob

pleas advice wrote: »

aye, but if you don't call it eugenics...

I'll call it eugenics. I promise you. and I will not be the only one.

Cupcake_Crisis

Sheeps wrote: »

Does a woman having taken an abortion pill flush the fetus down the toilet or give it a burial? What is the norm?

Anything that would pass from taking the abortion pill would, without being too vulgar, look like a very heavy period.

Losty Dublin

So there are still No leaflets going into houses in Tallaght long after midnight. They also have a car going around Fettercairn., tannoy a pumping, spreading their message :eek:

pitifulgod

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Well there has been countless tales of yes voters being dicks as well. No biggie.

Story sounds iffy. Guy asks you what way you were voting despite wearing a yes badge?. Hmmmm.

Unless he was blind?.

I don't really care if you believe if it happened or not. Plenty on the train witnessed the antics on it this evening. I imagine specifically asking about the yes was to initiate a dialogue and to attempt to get a rise out of me. And to be perfectly honest, I've not heard of any similar dodgy behaviour from yes campaigners. Trying to provoke people at random on public transport?

Heard about similar goings on, on O'Connell's Street throughout the day btw. So it's far from an isolated incident.

charlietheminxx

I’m up in 5 hours and honestly can’t sleep. The tension! Can’t wait to cast my vote.

vladmydad

There is one issue that I haven’t heard about. If yes wins , I don’t want to contribute financially towards abortions and I don’t want to become a tax dodger, so what do you suggest ? Some sort of tax rebate or those having abortions must pay for them

SusieBlue

Stonedpilot wrote: »

No voters are voting No as they think abortion is sadistic and cruel.

To tear a baby apart in the womb. Lots of American abortion doctors are anti abortion now!..

There is a reason people hate seeing the graphic pictures of babies ripped up by some blunt anti abortion groups. Its the brutal Truth!.
Last thing people like in the world is brutal truth.

Thats what happens in surgical abortions!. Unborn ripped limb from limb.

I’m so sick of seeing this posted. It isn’t true.
Pre 12 weeks, it will be two tablets and a heavy period.
It’s an induced miscarriage.
A woman who naturally miscarries at that exact same gestation will have the same experience.

Late term terminations will only be permitted in cases of FFA or severe threat to the health of the mother.
These terminations usually occur somewhere around week 20 (after the anamoly scan).
These are wanted, loved babies.
They are NOT torn limb from limb.

These women are induced and they give birth the normal way, either via labour or Caesarean section.
One of the most tragic parts of these cases for the parents is the issue of trying to get the baby’s body home to bury.
They unfortunately have to either have their baby cremated and shipped via courier or else they have to sneak the body home in the boot of the car.

If you look at any of the TFMR stories on any platform, or any interview, they all confirm (and sometimes show evidence) that they all spent time with their babies after their birth and got photos, footprints, and keepsakes.
There was no decapatation or dismembering or whatever other emotive language you want to use to try to manipulate people.

In cases of medical emergency for the mother, the fastest exit route is a ceasearean section.
These babies are sent straight to neonatal and given every fighting chance possible.

These are loved, wanted babies and you implying that their parents allowed them to be dismembered is very wrong.

NIMAN

Re: calling the cops if you see a poster within 50/100m of a polling station, is it also against the law to walk into a station with a YES or NO lapel badge on?

NIMAN

vladmydad wrote: »

There is one issue that I haven’t heard about. If yes wins , I don’t want to contribute financially towards abortions and I don’t want to become a tax dodger, so what do you suggest ? Some sort of tax rebate or those having abortions must pay for them

Sorry no, you can't pick and choose where you income tax goes to.

pitifulgod

vladmydad wrote: »

There is one issue that I haven’t heard about. If yes wins , I don’t want to contribute financially towards abortions and I don’t want to become a tax dodger, so what do you suggest ? Some sort of tax rebate or those having abortions must pay for them

You know the state contributes towards a person getting viagra too?