Ireland to pay over €3bn per year to the EU

Kermit.de.frog

"Net contributor" may sound nice and it is because it gives clout. But...


It has a nice price tag too!

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-s-eu-budget-contribution-may-rise-to-over-3bn-1.3486204


Irexit? We could pay €3bn per year to the HSE

super_furry

The benefits outweigh the costs.

Allinall

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

"Net contributor" may sound nice and it is because it gives clout. But...


It has a nice price tag too!

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-s-eu-budget-contribution-may-rise-to-over-3bn-1.3486204


Irexit? We could pay €3bn per year to the HSE

We already pay over €13 bn to the HSE.

Why would we give them another €3bn to waste?

_Kaiser_

super_furry wrote: »

The benefits outweigh the costs.

While things are rosy.. Yea (at least from an economic perspective anyway)

But we've seen already what happens to countries like ourselves when things go badly, and the attitudes from the big 2 towards dissent.

There's also the unresolved migration issue (although the headlines have mostly faded), the ongoing complaints about our tax system, being stuck in the middle of the UK/EU spat over Brexit, and the reality that we're nowhere near as influential in Brussels as we are often told by our local government.

But Irexit would be a mess so we're somewhat stuck with the situation. I still think that the only way Europe will work out long term though is a rollback on the USofE notions and a move back to being just a trade bloc with common interests.

Greybottle

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

"Net contributor" may sound nice and it is because it gives clout. But...


It has a nice price tag too!

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-s-eu-budget-contribution-may-rise-to-over-3bn-1.3486204


Irexit? We could pay €3bn per year to the HSE

They'd probably have to promote a load of lower managers to higher management to work out how to spend the €3 billion and that would probably end up costing us €3.5 billion.

I doubt much of it would trickle down to vital services.

RobbingBandit

How much funding and business do we get in return

everlast75

Should we get that printed up on the side of a big red bus?

If only there was some other country exiting the EU so that we could examine the issues that might occur from doing that.

Kermit.de.frog

€3bn is a lot of money for a country the size of Ireland.


We will be funding motorways in Poland.

But then the argument is they gave us money (not Poland)...


Still I do think this could be contentious for the Irish public as we move forward. Our contribution will only increase.

Sultan_of_Ping

We may contribute an amount but what we get back far outweighs that contribution - in terms of access to one of the largest, richest markets in the world.

Plus, if you think the downturn was bad under the EU, think of absolutely disastrous it would've been if our gombeen politicians had not been fettered by the discipline imposed by the EU........we'd have been Venezuela without the oil or the sunshine.

Plus, plus, I wonder how much our ongoing borrowing costs would be if we didn't have the Euro, the ECB etc to operate with?

RDM_83 again

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

While things are rosy.. Yea (at least from an economic perspective anyway)


.

Things aren't rosy though, we are already staring down the barrel of the next recession and this time there is no slack, Italy, Spain and Greece (and arguably Ireland) can't handle another crisis but we are likely due one.


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eurozone-economy-pmi/euro-zone-business-slowdown-suggests-best-days-may-be-over-idUSKCN1IO184

Harry Palmr

Is this a troll thread? Ireland used to be dirt poor and received billions, now it's comparatively rich and so is paying in to help others who are poor.

Peregrinus

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Things aren't rosy though, we are already staring down the barrel of the next recession and this time there is no slack, Italy, Spain and Greece (and arguably Ireland) can't handle another crisis but we are likely due one.

And would we rather face it as a member of the EU, or having drunk the Brexit cool-aid?

This is a no-brainer. If we follow the UK out of the EU, the resulting contraction in our economy will cost the economy far, far more than €3bn per year, and there will be a corresponding drop in tax revenues. Irexit won't give us more money to put into the health services (or anything else); it will give us less.

That's what's going to happen in the UK. Why would we expect it to be any different here?

Kermit.de.frog

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Still I do think this could be contentious for the Irish public as we move forward. Our contribution will only increase.

It's 1% of our GDP. Irish people aren't stupid enough to give up the benefits of the EU when our GDP would crumble far more than that.

The UK may have forgotten life before the EU but we haven't.

Kermit.de.frog

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Is this a troll thread? Ireland used to be dirt poor and received billions, now it's comparatively rich and so is paying in to help others who are poor.

At €3bn per year that argument lasts for how many years? 4?

After that it's good money after bad?

I'm playing devils advocate here but I do think in the near future this will become an issue in politics here.

Kermit.de.frog

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

At €3bn per year that argument lasts for how many years? 4?

After that it's good money after bad?

I'm playing devils advocate here but I do think in the near future this will become an issue in politics here.

You're not playing devil's advocate. You're playing the idiot down the pub.

Do you think our economy is worse off being in the EU because of that 3bn? A simple yes or no will tell us all we need to know.

Peregrinus

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

At €3bn per year that argument lasts for how many years? 4?

After that it's good money after bad?

No. If we leave the EU our economy will contract, and it will stay contracted unless and until we rejoin the EU. So our GDP will be (say) 4% less than it otherwise would have been, each year, indefinitely. So we'd save 3bn each year in contributions to the EU, but lose 12bn each in lost productivity - a net loss of 9bn each year. This isn't a situation that ever reverses itself unless we can find some magic way in which we become more productive outside the EU than we could be inside it.

I've picked the 4% figure out of the air but, to be honest, it's a modest estimate of the cost to us of leaving. It's estimated that simply moving from the common market to the single market in the 1990s raised GDP in the EU countries by between 3% and 6%. It stands to reason that leaving both the single market and the common market would result in an even larger fall in GDP.

Irexit is an even more stupid idea than Brexit. And, as you can imagine, that's measuring it against a pretty high bar in stupidity.

Kermit.de.frog

Deleted User wrote: »

You're not playing devil's advocate. You're playing the idiot down the pub.

Do you think our economy is worse off being in the EU because of that 3bn? A simple yes or no will tell us all we need to know.

I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing.

What is your economic expertise?

Deiseen

As an Irish person living in the UK and experiencing the effects of Brexit in real-time, I can tell you right now, anyone who thinks that Ireland should leave the EU needs to completely f**k off for themselves.
Debate is good but and healthy. But to try and invent that there would be some kind of weird benefits to leaving the EU is just pure codology.

Kermit.de.frog

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing.

What is your economic expertise?

You don't need economic expertise to know the Irish economy is built upon its access to the Single Market. Though I do have a degree that focused on International Economics, I can't remember anything from it and don't work in anything related to it.

The onus is on you to explain how it isn't worth the 3bn we have to contribute. Everyone else "knows" we benefit enormously so convince us we're wrong.

diggerdigger

I think a real question is whether is worth us having the likes of Google, Apple or Facebook revenue counting towards our GDP really helps us at all.

• Massive GDP "contributions" by funneling revenues and IP here, driving up EU contributions ultimately
• But minimal corporate taxes paid on those revenues

Yes, there are well paid jobs, which

• driving up property prices for all,
• yes supporting other jobs,
• but also impacting wages rates and our overall domestic competitiveness.

Is it really just imagined productivity. I'd love to see some proper unbiased economic analysis.

Yakult

#Irestay

wes

We have received funds for years. Only fair, that now we are in the position to contribute that we should do so.

Ireland has benefited greatly from EU membership, and as we can see via the absolute chaos (due to the utter incompetence and stupidity of Brexiters) that is Brexit in the UK, we are far better in than out.

irishrover99

It still amazes me that people forget what a ****hole Ireland was before the we joined the single currency.

questionmark?

Deiseen wrote: »

As an Irish person living in the UK and experiencing the effects of Brexit in real-time, I can tell you right now, anyone who thinks that Ireland should leave the EU needs to completely f**k off for themselves.
Debate is good but and healthy. But to try and invent that there would be some kind of weird benefits to leaving the EU is just pure codology.

Care to explain the effects first hand? Zombies on the street? No jobs? Boris Johnson humping you before breakfast?

BailMeOut

With Britain leaving our membership to the EU is more important than ever and €3bn is cheap as chips considering what we get access to.

topper75

The Irish electorate were lead to believe throughout the 70s/80s/90s that there was such a thing as a free lunch.

The Irish body politic sold this line and it was bought wholesale. EU membership is starting to slowly clarify since the 2008 business (which really began in 2004 or so with low ECB rates that we were locked into).

_Kaiser_

wes wrote: »

We have received funds for years. Only fair, that now we are in the position to contribute that we should do so.

Ireland has benefited greatly from EU membership, and as we can see via the absolute chaos (due to the utter incompetence and stupidity of Brexiters) that is Brexit in the UK, we are far better in than out.

We are? Did I miss where we had paid off the debt we were saddled with, or had fixed the serious domestic problems we have?

Ireland like to think of itself as a big key player in these things.. but the reality is it's a small island on the edge of Europe that's only notable in Europe because of how many MNCs are here for tax benefits... it's not because "everyone loves the Irish". We already saw what happened when the economy fell apart - effectively "you'll do what your told!". Yep, we're sure at the heart of things!

Ireland will face a much tougher time if Brexit does go through, but I very much doubt our EU "friends" will be too bothered once the dust of their argument with the UK has settled.

wes

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

We are? Did I miss where we had paid off the debt we were saddled with, or had fixed the serious domestic problems we have?

Plenty of countries have debt. We are able to handle it now, and its our own governments fault that they took on private debt.

Other countries also have various issue. We are in a position to pay now.

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Ireland like to think of itself as a big key player in these things.. but the reality is it's a small island on the edge of Europe that's only notable in Europe because of how many MNCs are here for tax benefits... it's not because "everyone loves the Irish". We already saw what happened when the economy fell apart - effectively "you'll do what your told!". Yep, we're sure at the heart of things!

No one actually think we are a bigger player . Yeah, now imagine how badly our economy would fall a part if we weren't in the EU.

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Ireland will face a much tougher time if Brexit does go through, but I very much doubt our EU "friends" will be too bothered once the dust of their argument with the UK has settled.

If thing go badly for us, we will once again be a net recipient of EU funds.

Sultan_of_Ping

diggerdigger wrote: »

I think a real question is whether is worth us having the likes of Google, Apple or Facebook revenue counting towards our GDP really helps us at all.

• Massive GDP "contributions" by funneling revenues and IP here, driving up EU contributions ultimately
• But minimal corporate taxes paid on those revenues

Yes, there are well paid jobs, which

• driving up property prices for all,
• yes supporting other jobs,
• but also impacting wages rates and our overall domestic competitiveness.
• pay direct and indirect taxes

Is it really just imagined productivity. I'd love to see some proper unbiased economic analysis.

Fyp

DEFTLEFTHAND

Our corporation tax will have to be looked at in the near future.

That could create a bit of tension.

Riskymove

it is a joke that the article linked to does not mention the actual net contribution figure


in 2014 Ireland contributed around €1.69bn to the EU Budget, and received €1.52bn in return.

Therefore it cost 0.17bn


from 1973 when Ireland joined the EU to 2016, Irleand received over €50bn

we have some way to go to pay anything like that in return and a significant part of the reason we are net contributors now is down to the EU investment in our Country for 40 years

Capt'n Midnight

everlast75 wrote: »

Should we get that printed up on the side of a big red bus?

Might want to make that a big green bus.

The UK will save £8 Bn a year in nett contributions.
But the extra customs paperwork alone will cost about £20 Bn, not even joking.

Victor

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

"Net contributor" may sound nice and it is because it gives clout.

While we are net contributors, a lot of the money is still spent here.

pleas advice

Riskymove wrote: »

it is a joke that the article linked to does not mention the actual net contribution figure


in 2014 Ireland contributed around €1.69bn to the EU Budget, and received €1.52bn in return.

Therefore it cost 0.17bn


from 1973 when Ireland joined the EU to 2016, Irleand received over €50bn

we have some way to go to pay anything like that in return and a significant part of the reason we are net contributors now is down to the EU investment in our Country for 40 years

Something something banks something bailout something Germans...

We all partied.

malinheader

wes wrote: »

We have received funds for years. Only fair, that now we are in the position to contribute that we should do so.

Ireland has benefited greatly from EU membership, and as we can see via the absolute chaos (due to the utter incompetence and stupidity of Brexiters) that is Brexit in the UK, we are far better in than

When you say we recieved funds now it's only fair to contribute back, Don't forget on joining the EU the other members got access to some of the richest fishing grounds in the world. We have contributed more than most.

fash

I think it is fair to question what is the value of the artificially inflated GDP through US IT companies which results in higher contributions to the EU - are the resultant lower financing costs really good enough to offset this effect?

Phoebas

fash wrote: »

I think it is fair to question what is the value of the artificially inflated GDP through US IT companies which results in higher contributions to the EU - are the resultant lower financing costs really good enough to offset this effect?

Ireland's contributions are based on GNI per capita (which excludes Multinational's profit flows), not GDP.

Akrasia

We could use the 13 billion euros the EU are making apple pay us, to pay our EU contributions for years

Also, our 'Net' contribution is a lot less than 3bn, That figure doesn't include any of the money paid into our economy by EU grants and subsidies.

weldoninhio

Riskymove wrote: »

it is a joke that the article linked to does not mention the actual net contribution figure


in 2014 Ireland contributed around €1.69bn to the EU Budget, and received €1.52bn in return.

Therefore it cost 0.17bn


from 1973 when Ireland joined the EU to 2016, Irleand received over €50bn

we have some way to go to pay anything like that in return and a significant part of the reason we are net contributors now is down to the EU investment in our Country for 40 years

How much have we given up via our fisheries etc??

weldoninhio

Akrasia wrote: »

We could use the 13 billion euros the EU are making apple pay us, to pay our EU contributions for years

Also, our 'Net' contribution is a lot less than 3bn, That figure doesn't include any of the money paid into our economy by EU grants and subsidies.

I don't think the EU would let us use other EU countries money to pay our contributions. Apple owe Ireland nothing, Apple owe other EU countries billions, the EU decided to make Ireland the EU's Zacchaus and collect all the money for the other countries.

LeBash

Should we not be using that 3 billion to pay off a little bit of the Godzillion we owe? Surely everyone at the table in the EU would understand even if they don't agree

Riskymove

weldoninhio wrote: »

How much have we given up via our fisheries etc??

how much have other industries gained from free trade across EU and international trade deals?

what have farmers gained from subsidies for 40 years?

How much employment and industry attracted here after infrastructural investments?

what would our employment laws or our environment be like wthout EU laws?

Peregrinus

LeBash wrote: »

Should we not be using that 3 billion to pay off a little bit of the Godzillion we owe? Surely everyone at the table in the EU would understand even if they don't agree

I'm sure the Revenue Commissioners would understand if I choose to pay my mortgage rather than remit VAT receipts, but they wouldn't agree, which is probably the salient point.

weldoninhio

Riskymove wrote: »

how much have other industries gained from free trade across EU and international trade deals?

what have farmers gained from subsidies for 40 years?

How much employment and industry attracted here after infrastructural investments?

what would our employment laws or our environment be like wthout EU laws?

50bn according to a poster above. I'm sure we would have followed EU/European law with or without being in the EU, although we may still have curved bananas which would be a travesty. I mean look at the chaos in Norway.

I'm not sure many on here understand how much our waters have been decimated by EU supertrawlers, over 50bn+ worth of fish gone, and thats not counting discarding laws. WWF estimates that 20-40% of our fish have been discarded!!

Deiseen

weldoninhio wrote: »

Riskymove wrote: »

how much have other industries gained from free trade across EU and international trade deals?

what have farmers gained from subsidies for 40 years?

How much employment and industry attracted here after infrastructural investments?

what would our employment laws or our environment be like wthout EU laws?

50bn according to a poster above. I'm sure we would have followed EU/European law with or without being in the EU, although we may still have curved bananas which would be a travesty. I mean look at the chaos in Norway.

I'm not sure many on here understand how much our waters have been decimated by EU supertrawlers, over 50bn+ worth of fish gone, and thats not counting discarding laws. WWF estimates that 20-40% of our fish have been discarded!!

Fishing treaties exist outside of EU anyway. The one fact that no one ever mentions is that we are also allowed fish off the coast of other countries. Its not all give and no take.

RobertKK

We were the poorest country in the EEC when we joined, 45 years later we are one of the richest countries on the planet.
The EEC/EC/EU has been an overwhelming success story for our country and for Europe.
I look at the EU as we are all citizens of it if we are from a member state, and it is in our interest that as a collective the whole European Union benefits, so the rich nations help the poorer nations, and hopefully more countries that are poorer become much better off and their citizens benefit like we have done...and they eventually become net contributors too.

diggerdigger

Ireland's contributions are based on GNI per capita (which excludes Multinational's profit flows), not GDP.

In 2014, Irelands *GNI* increased 25% (source world bank).  GNI is not a magical measure, is most definitely skewed by multinational structuring assets to reside in the state, and does not mean a cent more tax, and does lead to higher EU contributions. 

I'm certainly not questioning whether we should pay to EU, but more the value of multinationals to this state.

weldoninhio

Deiseen wrote: »

Fishing treaties exist outside of EU anyway. The one fact that no one ever mentions is that we are also allowed fish off the coast of other countries. Its not all give and no take.

Why do you think Spanish super trawlers etc fish off Ireland?? You think they get bored of the view around the coast of Spain??

malinheader

Deiseen wrote: »

Fishing treaties exist outside of EU anyway. The one fact that no one ever mentions is that we are also allowed fish off the coast of other countries. Its not all give and no take.

As i said before. Ireland had the richest fishing grounds of all the EU. Plus when we joined the EU we hadn't the boats to exploit other countries resources. Our fishing rights were gave away big time so no one should be saying it's time for us to start paying back. We're well in credit.

Capt'n Midnight

weldoninhio wrote: »

50bn according to a poster above. I'm sure we would have followed EU/European law with or without being in the EU, although we may still have curved bananas which would be a travesty. I mean look at the chaos in Norway.

We used to be the biggest exporter of bananas in Europe.

So of you may have figured out that we don't grow them here, and the answer is of course that we manufactured them.

For tax reasons.

see Charles McCann Ltd v S. O’Cualachain, Inspector of Taxes, (1998) IR 196

Oddly enough Fyffes UK base may soon be outside the EU so they might even return the banana producing business back here

I'm not sure many on here understand how much our waters have been decimated by EU supertrawlers, over 50bn+ worth of fish gone, and thats not counting discarding laws. WWF estimates that 20-40% of our fish have been discarded!!

Look to the UK. There are claims that Brexit will mean £32 million more to fisheries.

The truth is that if they implemented the existing rules and forced the largest 16 "UK" boats to land half their catch in the UK they'd be over £200m better off and have another 2,700 jobs. They also renewed the licenses of trawleres caught breaking the rules. The UK has also folded over future fisheries by saying they'll allow the six countries that have treaties to keep fishing in UK waters.

Anyone who thinks the little guys will be treated better outside of the EU needs to be reminded that at one point a Dutch supertrawler held 23% of the UK quota compared to the entire inshore fleet which held just 4%.


A lot of trawler crews are foreign too, there isn't a lot of money in fishing for the little guy and it's diminishing returns because today's technology means you need fewer boats and fewer crew to harvest the same amount of fish, assuming there are fish there to be harvested.