Ireland to pay over €3bn per year to the EU

Madagascan

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

€3bn is a lot of money for a country the size of Ireland.


We will be funding motorways in Poland.

You forget that the EU helped fund Irelands Motorways.

jimmycrackcorm

weldoninhio wrote:

I'm not sure many on here understand how much our waters have been decimated by EU supertrawlers, over 50bn+ worth of fish gone, and thats not counting discarding laws. WWF estimates that 20-40% of our fish have been discarded!!

Not to worry, haven't we also got billions in oil and gas reserves in the sea also.

Only a small fraction of the workforce worked and benefited in fisheries, do it wasn't anywhere near the contributor as our EU membership. I don't know of any motorways that were part funded by the fishermen.

malinheader

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Not to worry, haven't we also got billions in oil and gas reserves in the sea also.

Only a small fraction of the workforce worked and benefited in fisheries, do it wasn't anywhere near the contributor as our EU membership. I don't know of any motorways that were part funded by the fishermen.

I wouldn't use oil as an example. Sure did we not give that away for nothing. RTE ran a great show last year called Atlantic worth a watching to see what really went on.

zapitastas

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

We used to be the biggest exporter of bananas in Europe.

So of you may have figured out that we don't grow them here, and the answer is of course that we manufactured them.

For tax reasons.

see Charles McCann Ltd v S. O’Cualachain, Inspector of Taxes, (1998) IR 196

Oddly enough Fyffes UK base may soon be outside the EU so they might even return the banana producing business back here


Look to the UK. There are claims that Brexit will mean £32 million more to fisheries.

The truth is that if they implemented the existing rules and forced the largest 16 "UK" boats to land half their catch in the UK they'd be over £200m better off and have another 2,700 jobs. They also renewed the licenses of trawleres caught breaking the rules. The UK has also folded over future fisheries by saying they'll allow the six countries that have treaties to keep fishing in UK waters.

Anyone who thinks the little guys will be treated better outside of the EU needs to be reminded that at one point a Dutch supertrawler held 23% of the UK quota compared to the entire inshore fleet which held just 4%.


A lot of trawler crews are foreign too, there isn't a lot of money in fishing for the little guy and it's diminishing returns because today's technology means you need fewer boats and fewer crew to harvest the same amount of fish, assuming there are fish there to be harvested.

As well as that you have more and more research on toxicity levels in fish starting to emerge. The market could recede significantly

Capt'n Midnight

zapitastas wrote: »

As well as that you have more and more research on toxicity levels in fish starting to emerge. The market could recede significantly

LOL

fish isn't getting cheaper , supply and demand


The other side of the coin is that habitats that are toxic are harmful to animals, but less harmful than humans. Look at the wildlife in places that were used as toxic waste dumps or radioactive spills.

gw80

Deiseen wrote: »

Fishing treaties exist outside of EU anyway. The one fact that no one ever mentions is that we are also allowed fish off the coast of other countries. Its not all give and no take.

To be fair, if spain had the fish stocks we have in our waters, do you think irish super trawlers would be allowed to fish in their waters,
Spanish fishermen would be up in arms, literally, and rightfully so.
If the eu wanted to see ireland prosper why didn't they help to nurture the fishing industry in Ireland so we could sell to the rest of Europe, and maybe we could have built our own roads.
Do you think, if huge oil reserves were found under Germany that they would just hand it all over to the rest of Europe.

CrabRevolution

malinheader wrote: »

I wouldn't use oil as an example. Sure did we not give that away for nothing. RTE ran a great show last year called Atlantic worth a watching to see what really went on.

The current Irish oil industry consists of a few test wells and surveys. There have been 0 barrels of oil commercially pumped from Irish territory.



I've no idea where this " WE'RE GIVING OUR OIL AWAY FOR FREE!!!1!!" line comes from.

fly_agaric

weldoninhio wrote: »

50bn according to a poster above. I'm sure we would have followed EU/European law with or without being in the EU, although we may still have curved bananas which would be a travesty. I mean look at the chaos in Norway.

I'm not sure many on here understand how much our waters have been decimated by EU supertrawlers, over 50bn+ worth of fish gone, and thats not counting discarding laws. WWF estimates that 20-40% of our fish have been discarded!!

You're right that fishing could have been a good wealth generating industry for us but there is of course the question of our capability to develop and maintain a strong, competitive fishing industry all on our own, especially at that time.

It is not nice to put ones country down, but we don't seem to have a happy track record when it comes to such "big picture" strategic planning here and the country was also extremely poor when it joined the EEC.

Joining the EEC boosted our ability to plan and develop because not only were there funds for projects more available via structural funds, but these were strongly ringfenced from any corruption in our political system, rigourous tests of costs-vs-benefits were applied to the projects etc.

Just one aspect of what we would need if we were to trot after the Brits and Ire-exit tomorrow and live off the bountiful fish that the Spanish etc have eaten on us would be a creditable coast guard/navy to police our large territorial waters.

Even with the country being so much wealthier our coast guard/navy are still a bit of a joke & have limited abilities to police all these wonderful liberating fishing grounds.

CrabRevolution

CrabRevolution wrote: »

The current Irish oil industry consists of a few test wells and surveys. There have been 0 barrels of oil commercially pumped from Irish territory.



I've no idea where this " WE'RE GIVING OUR OIL AWAY FOR FREE!!!1!!" line comes from.

The oil thing is frustrating. The public wouldn't support billions spent with no return. Only some countries with easily accessible oil can do it at a state level.

wakka12

.

Mr.Micro

CrabRevolution wrote: »

The current Irish oil industry consists of a few test wells and surveys. There have been 0 barrels of oil commercially pumped from Irish territory.



I've no idea where this " WE'RE GIVING OUR OIL AWAY FOR FREE!!!1!!" line comes from.

I think the notion comes from the rights were sold back in the day and oil revenues will be owned by the companies when they explore and recover any oil.

http://www.shelltosea.com/content/gas-oil-robbery

fash

Mr.Micro wrote: »

CrabRevolution wrote: »

The current Irish oil industry consists of a few test wells and surveys. There have been 0 barrels of oil commercially pumped from Irish territory.



I've no idea where this " WE'RE GIVING OUR OIL AWAY FOR FREE!!!1!!" line comes from.

I think the notion comes from the rights were sold back in the day and oil revenues will be owned by the companies when they explore and recover any oil.

http://www.shelltosea.com/content/gas-oil-robbery

But surely we can all agree that the Irish state should not waste billions upon billions looking for oil which may or may not exist and which if it exists may or may not be recoverable?
In which case we must leave it to the private sector to do? And let them do it at the highest price they are willing to pay? If that price is zero, then that price is zero ( which considering that every attempt to look for oil in the post 40 years so far and in the most favourable locations has turned up nothing).
If they do find oil and can make any money out of it, don't forget that they will be hit with tax and Ireland will still have all of the other areas where oil is located.

Mr.Micro

fash wrote: »

But surely we can all agree that the Irish state should not waste billions upon billions looking for oil which may or may not exist and which if it exists may or may not be recoverable?
In which case we must leave it to the private sector to do? And let them do it at the highest price they are willing to pay? If that price is zero, then that price is zero ( which considering that every attempt to look for oil in the post 40 years so far and in the most favourable locations has turned up nothing).
If they do find oil and can make any money out of it, don't forget that they will be hit with tax and Ireland will still have all of the other areas where oil is located.

If this piece of the linked article is to be believed

"According to respected economist Colm Rapple, the amount of tax paid will be very low and will not be paid until many years into the operation of a gas or oil field, because the deal allows the companies to write off 100% of costs (even the anticipated cost of shutting down the operation!) before they declare the profits to be taxed (see www.colmrapple.com). In major oil/gas producing countries, the state takes an average (median) of 68% of the value of gas and oil. "
Looks like a good deal for the oil companies, better than other countries with oil reserves...time will tell.

http://www.shelltosea.com/content/gas-oil-robbery

Sheeps

Sure Apple are paying for it, so why not?

Sultan_of_Ping

weldoninhio wrote: »

50bn according to a poster above. I'm sure we would have followed EU/European law with or without being in the EU, although we may still have curved bananas which would be a travesty. I mean look at the chaos in Norway.

I'm not sure many on here understand how much our waters have been decimated by EU supertrawlers, over 50bn+ worth of fish gone, and thats not counting discarding laws. WWF estimates that 20-40% of our fish have been discarded!!

Well I can state with certainty you're one of the many.......

......our waters run out only to 12 nm........the 200 nm limit was only brought in during the late 1970s, partly down to EEC lobbying. Plus we've never been on ocean going fishing culture (we only developed in that direction with the help of the EU)......fishing in Ireland prior to our EEC membership was inshore.

We've also had what are known as voisinage agreements under the London Fisheries Convention from well before we joined the EEC which allowed many European states to fish within 6nm of the coast.

The discard requirement was replaced several years ago with a landing obligation.

fash

Mr.Micro wrote: »

fash wrote: »

But surely we can all agree that the Irish state should not waste billions upon billions looking for oil which may or may not exist and which if it exists may or may not be recoverable?
In which case we must leave it to the private sector to do? And let them do it at the highest price they are willing to pay? If that price is zero, then that price is zero ( which considering that every attempt to look for oil in the post 40 years so far and in the most favourable locations has turned up nothing).
If they do find oil and can make any money out of it, don't forget that they will be hit with tax and Ireland will still have all of the other areas where oil is located.

If this piece of the linked article is to be believed

"According to respected economist Colm Rapple, the amount of tax paid will be very low and will not be paid until many years into the operation of a gas or oil field, because the deal allows the companies to write off 100% of costs (even the anticipated cost of shutting down the operation!) before they declare the profits to be taxed (see www.colmrapple.com). In major oil/gas producing countries, the state takes an average (median) of 68% of the value of gas and oil. "
Looks like a good deal for the oil companies, better than other countries with oil reserves...time will tell.

http://www.shelltosea.com/content/gas-oil-robbery

Sounds reasonable given that in 40 years no-one has ever made a profit.
In how many of those other countries have oil companies never ever encountered oil? Shouldn't we be comparing ourselves with countries where oil has never been found-rather than with ones where no matter where you dig a hole, a couple of billion euros of oil spills out?

fash

fash wrote: »

Sounds reasonable given that in 40 years no-one has ever made a profit.
In how many of those other countries have oil companies never ever encountered oil? Shouldn't we be comparing ourselves with countries where oil has never been found-rather than with ones where no matter where you dig a hole, a couple of billion euros of oil spills out?

You're speaking far too much sense.

The fact is the Irish state has maximised its oil revenues by doing exactly what it's done. Anyone who argues with that is a fool, considering there is effectively no oil.

Wanderer78

fash wrote:

Sounds reasonable given that in 40 years no-one has ever made a profit. In how many of those other countries have oil companies never ever encountered oil? Shouldn't we be comparing ourselves with countries where oil has never been found-rather than with ones where no matter where you dig a hole, a couple of billion euros of oil spills out?

I use to work for a large American corporation in Ireland that in 40 years of operations, this particular facility ,has never turned a profit either, how uncanny!

Kermit.de.frog

Deleted User wrote: »

You're speaking far too much sense.

The fact is the Irish state has maximised its oil revenues by doing exactly what it's done. Anyone who argues with that is a fool, considering there is effectively no oil.

Some people in this country seem to think the state should pour literally billions on it's own in to drilling holes hoping to strike black gold.