Doping in Spanish Football

Chivito550

An excellent piece by Ewan MacKenna in the Independent on doping in Spanish football. Maybe before tuning into the Champions League final this Saturday, and vehemently cheering on Real Madrid, take some time to read through this brilliantly researched piece on all the dodgey links to the most loved sport in Spain.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/other-soccer/ewan-mackenna-there-are-murky-questions-surrounding-spanish-footballs-golden-era-and-people-might-not-like-the-answers-36943284.html

Tom Mann Centuria

I'd be cheering for Madrid on Saturday even if they were all filmed taking speed on the pitch.

Silentcorner

Chivito550 wrote: »

An excellent piece by Ewan MacKenna in the Independent on doping in Spanish football. Maybe before tuning into the Champions League final this Saturday, and vehemently cheering on Real Madrid, take some time to read through this brilliantly researched piece on all the dodgey links to the most loved sport in Spain.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/other-soccer/ewan-mackenna-there-are-murky-questions-surrounding-spanish-footballs-golden-era-and-people-might-not-like-the-answers-36943284.html

Ya...and if Liverpool win, it'll be the togetherness what won it!

NIMAN

Chivito550 wrote: »

An excellent piece by Ewan MacKenna in the Independent on doping in Spanish football. Maybe before tuning into the Champions League final this Saturday, and vehemently cheering on Real Madrid, take some time to read through this brilliantly researched piece on all the dodgey links to the most loved sport in Spain.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/other-soccer/ewan-mackenna-there-are-murky-questions-surrounding-spanish-footballs-golden-era-and-people-might-not-like-the-answers-36943284.html

Do you think Spanish teams are the only ones doping?
Serious question.

Chivito550

NIMAN wrote: »

Do you think Spanish teams are the only ones doping?
Serious question.

Absolutely not. I think doping is rampant in football in general. It stands to reason that if the financial rewards are so high, and the risks of getting caught are so low, that there will be cheating.

But unlike some countries which have good anti-doping measures in place (Ireland is one), Spain have a dreadful attitude to anti-doping, across all sports. Football is the most lucrative and popular sport in this country. The maths are not hard.

Other countries with appalling attitudes to doping are Russia, Turkey, Morocco.

Greece were another dodgey one. Questions should have been asked in 04. They hosted the Olympics in the same year, appeared from nowhere in other sports that same year (like they did in football), eventually got busted in many sports, and their football team had incredible endurance, winning games late on. The fact that this wasn't questioned highlights how little people in football even care about doping.

I'm not a Liverpool fan by the way. I actually can't stand the idea of them winning. But I don't want a club linked to Fuentes winning either.

bucketybuck

I thought this was a touchy subject around here? I've seen posts deleted in the past for daring to suggest certain teams may have had a little help on the physical side of things.

I wish the whole thing would blow open though, I know my opinion on a certain popular manager who managed a very good team with one of the worlds best players to a lot of success, it would be nice to have my belief that they were doped to the eyeballs vindicated.

Donnielighto

Rife

GLaDOS

There wss a massive thread on here years ago with pretty much the same allegations if I remember correctly

NIMAN

bucketybuck wrote: »

I thought this was a touchy subject around here? I've seen posts deleted in the past for daring to suggest certain teams may have had a little help on the physical side of things.

I wish the whole thing would blow open though, I know my opinion on a certain popular manager who managed a very good team with one of the worlds best players to a lot of success, it would be nice to have my belief that they were doped to the eyeballs vindicated.

... and that manager also failed a drugs test himself iirc;)

I too would love it all to go Lance Armstrong if I'm honest. Rub it up them all. But they are all at it. I always watched that Barca team with suspicion. It had top players who were very injury prone who suddenly were able to play every game of the season, at a very high tempo, without much rest. And then they had Euro's and WCs too, played as well so often they had little rest over the summer. One player in particular I would put my house on is a definite doper.

I actually remember that radio piece with Graham Hunter, I was driving at the time and said to myself "did he just say Barca were giving HGH?"

As I've said elsewhere I've no doubt it's rife. People will say technique and skill are more important and while it won't be as steep of a linear benefit compared to athletics, cycling or baseball, there's no chance with the rewards and pressure at the top of the game that the extra percent or two hasn't been gotten illegally for a long time.

Fr Tod Umptious

There is a real head in the sand attitude to it from both fans and governing bodies.

It's so lucrative a sport that a drugs scandal and the fallout would cost billions.

And the last things fans want is their heros to be exposed as drug cheats.

It's one thing for it to blow up in cycling, or swimming or track and field, they are not raking in the cash that soccer is.

In the US it blew up in baseball and it was a huge deal, but it did not kill the game.

NIMAN

Deleted User wrote: »

As I've said elsewhere I've no doubt it's rife. People will say technique and skill are more important and while it won't be as steep of a linear benefit compared to athletics, cycling or baseball, there's no chance with the rewards and pressure at the top of the game that the extra percent or two hasn't been gotten illegally for a long time.

Of course skill and technique are very crucial to winning things in the top level of football, but it also helps you when one of the new fundamental rules you bring in for your players is to win the ball back off the opposition in 6sec.

callaway92

Everybody's on steroids

Just look at Ronaldo's stupid interview he did recently . . .

and just look at the guy . . .

https://www.eurosport.com/football/champions-league/2017-2018/cristiano-ronaldo-i-feel-23-and-i-will-play-until-i-m-41_sto6767985/story.shtml

Gbear

If it turned out Messi and Ronaldo (and probably the rest of Barca and Real by proxy) had been doping their whole career, jaysus it'd be a huge blow to the sport.

It'd basically render all European and Spanish club competition void for the past 10 years, as well as a World Cup and 3 of the last 4 Euros.

NIMAN

NIMAN wrote: »

Of course skill and technique are very crucial to winning things in the top level of football, but it also helps you when one of the new fundamental rules you bring in for your players is to win the ball back off the opposition in 6sec.

Oh absolutely. I was referring to the people who claim that doping wouldn't be worth it in a "technical" sport like football.

Iang87

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh absolutely. I was referring to the people who claim that doping wouldn't be worth it in a "technical" sport like football.

I was one of those people for a long time until one of the lads put it simply to me. If its technical and you practice hard and you recover quickly and practice hard again your technique has to improve giving you the advantage.

It was actually golf we were discussing when we spoke about it

callaway92

Gbear wrote: »

If it turned out Messi and Ronaldo (and probably the rest of Barca and Real by proxy) had been doping their whole career, jaysus it'd be a huge blow to the sport.

It'd basically render all European and Spanish club competition void for the past 10 years, as well as a World Cup and 3 of the last 4 Euros.

Ronaldo is certainly juicing/doping. Complete and utter cover ups stopping anything coming out.

Bear in mind, the below is a combat sports athlete...and a footballer ... who is 33...can't look like that naturally

GavRedKing

I dont think its just a Spanish issue TBF.

I reckon at the elite levels, theres some form of it going on, the sport is worth billions so I wouldnt be shocked to hear it happening at all.

Zidane and maybe Nedved or Davids alluded to it going on at Juventus but they werent sure what they were given, Pep has had some serious allegations and links with it throughout his time at Barca and Bayern too and its just the tip of the iceberg I'd imagine.

If it is happening in England I reckon it didnt start until the mid to late 90s, the transition in terms in the PLs quality shot up dramatically with the influx of Sky money and foreign players/managers.

GavRedKing

callaway92 wrote: »

Ronaldo is certainly juicing/doping. Complete and utter cover ups stopping anything coming out.

Bear in mind, the below is a combat sports athlete...and a footballer ... who is 33...can't look like that naturally

I dont know about that, Ronaldo has always been in fantastic shape, even going back to his Utd days.

I'd be more concerned about Bale, who left Spurs in decent shape and turned up at Madrid built like an absolute tank and said he put on the muscle by running. :pac:

Cantona's Collars

It's odd too that certain players looked like just rescued hostages by the 70th minute in games yet went to other teams and soon after were charging around like the energizer bunny in the last seconds of matches.

GavRedKing

GavRedKing wrote: »

I dont know about that, Ronaldo has always been in fantastic shape, even going back to his Utd days.

:

If he is, then maybe that's where it started

MD1990

callaway92 wrote: »

Ronaldo is certainly juicing/doping. Complete and utter cover ups stopping anything coming out.

Bear in mind, the below is a combat sports athlete...and a footballer ... who is 33...can't look like that naturally

yes you can.

Doping is rife in football but I wouldn't be looking so much into how good of shape some players look ascetically. Ronaldo's physique is achieveble with a good diet & consistent training. But his lack of injuries would make me suspicious considering the amount of games he has played.

Atletico would be a team I am near 100% sure are doping when you see their running stats.

I remember they outran Barcelona easily playing with 10 men for 60 mins.

GavRedKing

Deleted User wrote: »

If he is, then maybe that's where it started

I dont know, I mean Rooney was at Utd at the same time and same age and he often looked terribly out of shape.

A lot can be said for a good diet, training, motivation and dedication to the craft.

I mean if you were doping players to look like bodybuilders with about 5% body fat and lean muscle, you'd want the entire team in on it.

I think the lack of injuries that the elite players get and recovery time between games are the areas you'd probably need to focus on more so than their physiques in this day and age, IMO.

TheCitizen

Ronaldo looks like a body builder must be at it

Will I Am Not

The amount of people using physique to judge if a player is doping :rolleyes:
Look at the players who have actually been caught.

Shanotheslayer

Will I Am Not wrote: »

The amount of people using physique to judge if a player is doping :rolleyes:
Look at the players who have actually been caught.

It's almost like jealously means he's doping.

GavRedKing

Its also worth noting that if you do dope, its not going to suddenly turn you into a world class player.

A doped up half decent player isnt suddenly going to be thrown into the a winning side because he runs around a bit more than the rest of his team mates.

GavRedKing

GavRedKing wrote: »

Its also worth noting that if you do dope, its not going to suddenly turn you into a world class player.

A doped up half decent player isnt suddenly going to be thrown into the a winning side because he runs around a bit more than the rest of his team mates.

And I'm not going to win a marathon any time soon whatever doping I do. But a player who's at a team rated say 100-200 in the world can likely move up to 40-50. Someone who's in the top 100 players could get to around 50. There's diminishing returns the higher up you go but they're there.

Chivito550

GavRedKing wrote: »

Its also worth noting that if you do dope, its not going to suddenly turn you into a world class player.

A doped up half decent player isnt suddenly going to be thrown into the a winning side because he runs around a bit more than the rest of his team mates.

Football is decided on fine margins. If a player is gassed in the 80th minute, he can't keep up with the opposing player, and that can be the decisive moment in a close game.

Doping doesn't improve your skill. It improves your recovery and fitness, which enables you to utilize those skills to better effect in the closing periods of a match.

~Rebel~

Chivito550 wrote: »

Football is decided on fine margins. If a player is gassed in the 80th minute, he can't keep up with the opposing player, and that can be the decisive moment in a close game.

Doping doesn't improve your skill. It improves your recovery and fitness, which enables you to utilize those skills to better effect in the closing periods of a match.

True, it's the difference between a limp shot or a thunderbastard into the top corner at the end of a lung busting run. Doping, and using that physical benefit to train harder, means more moments in a game when you are in a position and physical state to use your natural talent.

Talisman

What constitutes doping? The big clubs can afford to keep medical staff on the payroll to keep the players in top physical condition. They will do everything they can to give their team an edge.

I've seen plenty of Premier League players using oxygen and hyperbaric treatment to speed up recovery rates. In other sports, athletes have received bans for using hyperbaric treatment while not recovering from an injury.

Some years ago Arsenal players used to have the inside of their jersey lathered in a medicinal rub that would help them absorb more oxygen while they were playing. Having increased oxygen levels gave the players an advantage over their opponents.

Messi has a documented history of vitamin and growth hormones that began before he joined Barcelona. His family couldn't afford the treatment, but Barcelona generously picked up the tab and provided doctors to keep track of his progress.

Bryan Fogel's Icarus documentary demonstrates how easy it is to dope an athlete, there's a point in it where it's mentioned that it's not only cyclists and olympic athletes that were availing of the services on offer.

dfx-

Chivito550 wrote: »

An excellent piece by Ewan MacKenna in the Independent on doping in Spanish football. Maybe before tuning into the Champions League final this Saturday, and vehemently cheering on Real Madrid, take some time to read through this brilliantly researched piece on all the dodgey links to the most loved sport in Spain.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/other-soccer/ewan-mackenna-there-are-murky-questions-surrounding-spanish-footballs-golden-era-and-people-might-not-like-the-answers-36943284.html

I find it hard to be interested in anything Ewan MacKenna writes at this stage. His relentless scepticism on any achievement in (high level) sport is a draining experience.

Fromvert

Track and Field, sports where there is relative pennies involved, an anonymous survey of athletes at two events in 2011, 57% admitted to doping, and they catch barely any of them (0.2% of athletes tested at the Olympics fail). That's 57% of them admitting to it, I'm sure it's a lot higher as a lot would never admit to it even in an anonymous survey as it could get out at some stage.

If I had to guess it's carried out by the clubs with little info relayed to the players, every now and again you get a few fails, possibly the club messing up, the tests actually doing their job :pac: or the players going off on their own and messing up.

It'll all come out at some stage but I don't care about doping in sports, I want to see the best athletes pushing their bodies to the absolute limit for my enjoyment and in return they are compensated in mountains of money and adulation.

callaway92

Will I Am Not wrote: »

The amount of people using physique to judge if a player is doping :rolleyes:
Look at the players who have actually been caught.

It’s the fact that he’s in that shape while being a footballer. There’s a reason no other footballers are in shape like that.

Corholio

callaway92 wrote: »

It’s the fact that he’s in that shape while being a footballer. There’s a reason no other footballers are in shape like that.

No other footballer? Loads of football players have chiselled like physiques. It's also incredibly unlikely only 1 footballer could be doping. If he wasn't 'Ronaldo' it wouldn't even be mentioned only for his physique being on show a lot.

WinnyThePoo

I think it's naive not to think there's doping happening in every high level sport world wide.

I still always remember del pieros ban. I remember rio ferdinando ban? Missing one doping test? Seriously. He got caught. Tennis has a problem aswell. Sure cillic was allowed to say he was out injured in a grands lam, but what actually happened was a failed drug test. Fromme today.

Doctor fuentes being barca and Spanish national team doctor. That guy.

DM_7

When I see NBA players with a huge number of games but with players swapping in and put, time outs, 4 quarters of 15 monutes, yet many look 'normal'.

Then I see footballers, playing 90 minutes, 50 plus games a season (excluding world cups eyc), how do they not break down with such small recovery time?

Physiology can only get people so far and has limits. Footballers seem to have surpassed them. For all the the talk about tactics and style in the modern days it is certainly the conditioning that has changed most.

NIMAN

Re: that photo of Ronaldo and McGregor, it looks heavily airbrushed and photoshopped tbh

I'd take that physique with a slight pinch of salt.

castletownman

I wanted to mention it during the season, but was afraid it would draw ire but I am convinced City are doing some sort of medical doping.

Gabriel Jesus gets what looked like a serious knee injury around Christmas, and there were fears he may miss the WC- he was back within a month.

Leroy Sane got some ligament damage and was expected to be out for six weeks- was back in around ten IIRC.

Less suspiciously, KDB was scythed down that time, and there were fears of a nasty injury when he was stretchered off-he started the next game.

Maybe that is counter-balanced by the consistent injuries of Kompany, Aguero and Mendy's long-term absence, but two of those preceded the arrival of Pep, and the third was the victim of the dreaded ACL

NIMAN

castletownman wrote: »

I wanted to mention it during the season, but was afraid it would draw ire but I am convinced City are doing some sort of medical doping.

Gabriel Jesus gets what looked like a serious knee injury around Christmas, and there were fears he may miss the WC- he was back within a month.

Leroy Sane got some ligament damage and was expected to be out for six weeks- was back in around ten IIRC.

Less suspiciously, KDB was scythed down that time, and there were fears of a nasty injury when he was stretchered off-he started the next game.

Maybe that is counter-balanced by the consistent injuries of Kompany, Aguero and Mendy's long-term absence, but two of those preceded the arrival of Pep, and the third was the victim of the dreaded ACL

To be honest, the injuries you described probably unlikely to be helped if you are doping. Maybe they just weren't as bad as first reported?

You have to remember these guys all have the best physio teams working on them, and can often be got fit again ahead of time with intensive rehab.

Having said that, there is also the possibility that city do dope. Who knows?

callaway92

Corholio wrote: »

No other footballer? Loads of football players have chiselled like physiques. It's also incredibly unlikely only 1 footballer could be doping. If he wasn't 'Ronaldo' it wouldn't even be mentioned only for his physique being on show a lot.

Of course it wouldn’t be mentioned if it wasn’t Ronaldo - that’s why we are talking about him - the guy is an unbelievable footballer in incredible shape

StringerBell

GavRedKing wrote: »

Its also worth noting that if you do dope, its not going to suddenly turn you into a world class player.

A doped up half decent player isnt suddenly going to be thrown into the a winning side because he runs around a bit more than the rest of his team mates.

This muddys the waters when it comes to discussing doping in football though, unintentionally on your part of course.

Nobody would claim that doping is going to make you any better in terms of technique and skill, what it does do is allow you to train longer and harder, to play harder and recover much quicker.

You train harder and longer you will likely improve, especially if you start the doping at an early age.

You have that little bit of extra juice at the end of a tough game which gives you that all important edge due to doping.

You can bust a gut pressing hard, chasing hard, sprinting around the pitch for 90 minutes aided by doping.

It closes the skill gap by sheer physical overwhelming of an opponent as much as it anything else and there are some very obvious candidates out there. Plenty have come from the Spanish leagues, plenty from Germany, Italy etc and it would be pretty foolish to think it is not rife in England also.

There is too much money involved in the game, limits will be pushed constantly.

NIMAN

Wasn't there a famous doping doctor linked with Bayern for quite a while.

And let's not forget Robben, that guy who in his 30s who ran 100 yards+ in the last minute of a world cup game in 10 secs with the ball at his feet. Another player who went from constantly injured to super fit for a long period.

Cantona's Collars

NIMAN wrote: »

Wasn't there a famous doping doctor linked with Bayern for quite a while.

And let's not forget Robben, that guy who in his 30s who ran 100 yards+ in the last minute of a world cup game in 10 secs with the ball at his feet. Another player who went from constantly injured to super fit for a long period.

I think there was also a story at Bayern when a certain Spanish coach was there was that a doctor there didn't like his methods and it led to conflict.

Too Tough To Die

NIMAN wrote: »

Wasn't there a famous doping doctor linked with Bayern for quite a while.

And let's not forget Robben, that guy who in his 30s who ran 100 yards+ in the last minute of a world cup game in 10 secs with the ball at his feet. Another player who went from constantly injured to super fit for a long period.

Yes. Worked with the national side too. He's back at the club now. He has recently claimed there is no doping in football...

Silentcorner

It's also naive to think that it doesn't improve performances, in fact, football and rugby would be the two most obvious sports that would benefit from doping, rugby for obvious reasons, but football is a game of concentration, it is probably the toughest of all team sports because of the concentration required for 90 minutes...I wouldn't have thought that Baseball or American Football would benefit from doping but apparently it is endemic over there too.

Look at the amount of footballers that are playing well past their mid thirties.

The two biggest red flags for me are the lack of injuries, or very quick recovery times, and the high pressing game.

Just take one look at the records Spanish based players have been setting since 2006/7...it's off the charts! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballon_d'Or

nice_guy80

Funny article

No mention of the Liverpool player ACTUALLY caught on a doping violation