Giro d'Italia 2018 stage 19: Venaria Reale – Jafferau 184km

Sprinter Sacre

The fact he looked like a guy from 2009 at parts of the Giro and then turns up for two stages where he buries the whole peloton, the latter of those two being the most insane individual solo win in this history of the sport...it doesn't make sense. Marginal gains, planned late peak, call it what you want but in reality it's f*cking nonsense it's absolute bullsh*t. Yates showing monstrous form was very suspect but he's gone out like a light, and the last two days have eased my suspicions as he clearly exerted too much in the two weeks and has ran out of steam. Whereas looking like a poor domestique to GT smasher for one stage to back to domestique again to going full Ricco/Landis hyperblend today makes no sense whatsoever.

godtabh

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Thing is if that was a one day classics race I'd have probably believed it but not on the 3rd week of a GT . Riding into form is new speak for marginal gains. Made Valverde's return this year and form look like nothing.

Hasn't riding into form always been a thing?

Lumen

Speculation is a dead end, but this wouldn't have happened if they'd have just banned him as soon as the adverse finding was in.

Then he could have spent a year doing kidney/salbutamol research run by an actual academic institution rather than a TV company, and we'd at least come out of this with some science.

MPFGLB

JenovaProject wrote: »

I only watch the TDF,Veulta and Giro and I enjoyed seeing froome destroy todays stage and can understand the comparisons being made to dopers of the past,but should evreyones anger not be directed at the doping agencies(WADA,USADA et al)rather than froome and sky.

Surely after a performance like today,froome would be hauled in for a piss and blood test to see whats going on?

Or is it the higher ups that are keeping everything under wraps? and if it is shouldnt they be the ones that are getting all the flak rather than sky and froome.

Im only asking as a layman so take it easy on me lads,please!!!

The testing isnt sophisticated enough to catch new developments in doping, like micro doping
and then there are the TUEs....medically approved medications
And use of limited substances as 'medication'
Or out of competetion use of steroids


There seems to be many ways around the system (if you have the right doctor) that fans now base their views on perforamnce alone

Lumen

MPFGLB wrote: »

There seems to be many ways around the system (if you have the right doctor) that fans now base their views on perforamnce alone

Do you mean that fans make judgements about probability of doping from performances? Or just forget about doping altogether?

coco0981

https://twitter.com/RohanDennis/status/1000071955423334401?s=19

MPFGLB

Lumen wrote: »

Do you mean that fans make judgements about probability of doping from performances? Or just forget about doping altogether?

Fans think riders dope based on performance

Irish Raven

RobFowl wrote:

But we Irish are morally and ethically superior to the rest of the world.....

please tell me more....

GT_TDI_150

Most annoying thing about yesterdays stage was the eurosport commentary and their refusal to even see the funny side of tge fans running up the finestre with the large inhaler... Dismissing it as fans stupidity....

pelevin

Whether it can be argued it's the right response or not but my inner reaction is I find it repugnant. He shouldn't be riding in the first place, he's a total hypocrite about caring about the image of the sport, his team is run be a total hypocrite, & there's no point even wondering about whether yday's ride was credible or not as he & his team don't deserve to be taken seriously. Tobh they'd already killed almost all of my interest in stage racing & I think that's probably it for me in terms of watching.

Corker1

I found that a hard watch. I only saw the highlights programme but I am incredulous. On a positive note it was a cracking course yesterday. It confirmed to me that I am going to cycle the Coll delle Finestre some day. I also thought the Eurosprort video editors' choice of music for the end credits was inspired - Johnny Cash's 'HURT'....

I hurt myself today
To see if I still feel
I focus on the pain
The only thing that's real
The needle tears a hole
The old familiar sting
Try to kill it all away
But I remember everything
What have I become
My sweetest friend
Everyone I know
Goes away in the end
And you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you hurt
I wear this crown of thorns
Upon my liars chair
Full of broken thoughts
I cannot repair
Beneath the stains of time
The feelings disappear
You are someone else
I am still right here
What have I become
My sweetest friend
Everyone I know
Goes away in the end
And you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you hurt
If I could start again
A million miles away
I will keep myself
I would find a way

Lumen

MPFGLB wrote: »

Fans think riders dope based on performance

Right. Well that's just futile. If that attitude shapes the sport we'll end up with a spectacle like marble racing, excitable commentary on completely random unexceptional performances.

MPFGLB

Lumen wrote: »

Right. Well that's just futile. If that attitude shapes the sport we'll end up with a spectacle like marble racing, excitable commentary on completely random unexceptional performances.

Futile it might be but its my observation of the current pro cycling zeitgeist

And its the biggest threat to pro cycling

At least back in the day everyone (mostly) was dopong now who knows what the hell is going on in the margins of good and bad performance

Or at least that is the feeling among many fans

I would love to believe every Froome performance and applaud what must be the greatest cyclist ever if you believe in him and SKY (and the same for Valverde)

But its hard to make it all add up

Froome will have won 3 GTs in a row if he susrvives today
He will also have ridden the equivalent of another in SA training
Hinault & Merx maybe comparisons to draw on but they rode in the time of enhancement as we all know ....

Cappuccio and Landis did the same as Froome yesterday but we all know about their 'support'

And another reason I dont believe in Froome...He casres more about wining than he does cycling ...if he cared about cycling he would NOT be riding the Giro

pelevin

Lumen wrote: »

Right. Well that's just futile. If that attitude shapes the sport we'll end up with a spectacle like marble racing, excitable commentary on completely random unexceptional performances.

But in this specific instance, it's the performance of a rider who should in the normal run of things not be riding at all as he should be in the midst of a doping ban.

Lusk_Doyle

I'd take the point made by MPFLG a bit further and say that he cares about the riches to be gained from winning. From listening to him over the years it's clear that he has no interest in the history or any real knowledge / understanding of the sport and I'd speculate that the importance of making sporting history by himself is a side story to the cash.

Edit: Which in itself is not necessarily a bad thing but when all other information is factored in it speaks volumes.

Beasty

Lumen wrote: »

Right. Well that's just futile. If that attitude shapes the sport we'll end up with a spectacle like marble racing, excitable commentary on completely random unexceptional performances.

Looks good. Anyone fancy starting a megathread on marble racing?

Idleater

Beasty wrote: »

Looks good. Anyone fancy starting a megathread on marble racing?

I'm impressed that they can find a slope long enough for a minute of marble racing in the Netherlands! Oh wait, I hope I haven't accused the sport of systemic doping or otherwise influencing results!

Lusk_Doyle

That marble racing is proper cool!

retalivity

I am already designing marble racing courses in my head

Lumen

pelevin wrote: »

But in this specific instance, it's the performance of a rider who should in the normal run of things not be riding at all as he should be in the midst of a doping ban.

I agree. But more generally, the perpetual uncertainty caused by lack of faith in anti doping controls creates a situation where people just apply subjectivity and bigotry to figure out which riders they like to think are dirty or clean. Quickstep win everything and that's believable because they're cool and Belgian. Sky win and they're dopers because they're boring and wankerish and British. Oh, except now they now proven dopers with the jiffy bags and the salbutamol, which ought to be satisfying, but somehow it just feels.... not enough. You don't gain minutes in an 80km solo breakaway with a bit of salbutamol and fluffy pillows. It requires loads of talent, or loads of drugs, or both.

I'm not speculating, I'm enumerating.

Brian?

Lumen wrote: »

I agree. But more generally, the perpetual uncertainty caused by lack of faith in anti doping controls creates a situation where people just apply subjectivity and bigotry to figure out which riders they like to think are dirty or clean. Quickstep win everything and that's believable because they're cool and Belgian. Sky win and they're dopers because they're boring and wankerish and British. Oh, except now they now proven dopers with the jiffy bags and the salbutamol, which ought to be satisfying, but somehow it just feels.... not enough. You don't gain minutes in an 80km solo breakaway with a bit of salbutamol and fluffy pillows. It requires loads of talent, or loads of drugs, or both.

I'm not speculating.

Ah yeah. It’s all Brit bashing, you’re dead right. I hate the Kenyan Brits the most.

How long was Petacchi waiting to be banned after his salbutamol finding? Froome should not be riding the race. It’s that simple. It does nothing for the sport.

Beasty

Brian? wrote: »

Ah yeah. It’s all Brit bashing, you’re dead right. I hate the Kenyan Brits the most.

Even more than the the Belgian one


:pac:

Raymzor

Can anyone update me why the UCI are giving SKY sooooo much time to answer the adverse finding? It suggests to me UCI want SKY to find a ‘solution’ to avoid further tarnishing of the sport. Seems a throw back to Verb/ Lance etc

Hopefully Froome publishes his strava file for yesterday

Weepsie

Brian? wrote: »

Ah yeah. It’s all Brit bashing, you’re dead right. I hate the Kenyan Brits the most.

How long was Petacchi waiting to be banned after his salbutamol finding? Froome should not be riding the race. It’s that simple. It does nothing for the sport.

It was nearly a year before he was banned. He was made non active by the team for the TdF.

It took 7 months for Ulissi to be officially banned too, and he only got 9 months and had it all backdated.

If anything, it highlights how they really need to change the timelines and rules etc

Lumen

Brian? wrote: »

Ah yeah. It’s all Brit bashing, you’re dead right. I hate the Kenyan Brits the most.

How long was Petacchi waiting to be banned after his salbutamol finding? Froome should not be riding the race. It’s that simple. It does nothing for the sport.

I didn't say it was all Brit-bashing; that was one word you've chosen to highlight for whatever reason. I was just giving an example of subjective bias which all followers of the sport return to when they have no objective facts to rely on due to inability of sport to stamp out doping. The same subjective bias which presumably motivates Carlton to bang on endlessly about British riders rather than providing useful objective facts about what's going on in the race (oh, that's another thread).

Of course, we do now have the objective fact that Froome has failed a doping test, and so he shouldn't be riding at all (as I've pointed out at least once).

Chips Lovell

Rules should be the same for everyone. Simon Yates was allowed race before his case was heard and he had to serve his ban for asthma medication. Ditto for Froome. You can just ban people because you think it looks bad that they’re racing while waiting for their case to be resolved.

MPFGLB

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

Rules should be the same for everyone. Simon Yates was allowed race before his case was heard and he had to serve his ban for asthma medication. Ditto for Froome. You can just ban people because you think it looks bad that they’re racing while waiting for their case to be resolved.

1.Simopn Yates case was an error in application for a TUE...the paper work was not submitted by the doctor ..

2. Froome had twice the approved limit of a restricted substance. He was found to have it on the day he made a miraculous recovery and beat his rivals even though he was dropped the previous day and it looked like the race was running away from him ...There was no TUE

3. Simon Yates team held their hands up and the case was resolved from beginning to end in a matter of months ( 4 I think) . And the team suspended Yates immedialtey

4. SKY and Froome have dragged this case out since last October in the hunt for a futile defense ...They have not suspended Froome and have raced him

5.SKY have not joined MPCC, do not suspend riders (unless you are JTL) , do not publish data ( even though they promised transparency) . SKY riders have admitted to taking
corticosteroids out of competetion and though not banned help in weight lost and muscle building and WADA are considering banning them


I know the nunances of the SKY cases is hard for all to follow but imo Froome should not be riding the Giro or the Tour ...He is banged to rights and that is the truth no matter how long SKY extend the charade

Chips Lovell

His contention is that he did nothing wrong, that he didn’t take in excess of the permitted dose and he couldn’t know he’d test for higher. Now whatever you think about that, surely he should be a.) allowed mount a defense and b.) be allowed ride until it concludes as the rules permit. Scott acknowledged they did something wrong. In Sky’s place they’re saying they don’t believe they did.

CantGetNoSleep

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

His contention is that he did nothing wrong, that he didn’t take in excess of the permitted dose and he couldn’t know he’d test for higher. Now whatever you think about that, surely he should be a.) allowed mount a defense and b.) be allowed ride until it concludes as the rules permit. Scott acknowledged they did something wrong. In Sky’s place they’re saying they don’t believe they did.

Yeah but they are Sky what do you expect? They claim they did nothing wrong during the whole jiffy bag thing too, just lied three times to a reporter for no real reason

Chips Lovell

As I said. Regardless of what you think of him, the rules permit him to ride until the case is heard and defend himself if he chooses to do so.