Do any other men feel the same?

How Soon Is Now

Didn't know where else to post this so.....

I'm 32 year old man in long term relationship and have 2 young kids.

I've always been very proud of being a man/male and respected the values of who we are and what we do and have to do for ourselves our family's and our friends.

In the last decade especially last few years I feel more and more men are okay with the fact where being bit by bit day by day watered down as a gender.

It could be something as simple as our fashion becoming more feminine or the constant stereotypes where labeled with as men I could go on and on but in general I feel as part of gender equality becoming a major driving force it's become very exceptable for men today to be pushed to one side or seen as the bad ones.

It's crazy to also see so many men out there siding with this to the point I don't know what they think they are anymore?

In my circle of friends family etc it used to be mainly me who would have the "controversial" views on men and women and where we are in society.

I find now though lately more are starting to agree with me and are fed up with the direction society is going in.

I think of my 4 year old son for example what's school going to be like for him and other boys down the line if the "gender battle" continues to ride on.

Imagine all the young women out there now who will be educating there sons and daughters on how they should empower women and be careful of men.

I'm not looking for a fight on here I could posted this in after hours and id imagine the longer the topic went they would of had enough ammo to finally get rid of me! No instead I'd like other mens opinion on this.

Is it just me and a scattered few or do other men feel there wrongly being under valued and pushed aside now a days?

Iompair

No, there's a sizable minority of men who believe that women having equal rights means that they will have less rights.

It's sad but hopefully in 20 years time things will have settled down and those men will be viewed the same way as that strange uncle who spends too much time on his own and smells a bit funny at family gatherings. That or those men will set the place on fire and the world will be in a dark place.

How Soon Is Now

Iompair wrote: »

No, there's a sizable minority of men who believe that women having equal rights means that they will have less rights.

It's sad but hopefully in 20 years time things will have settled down and those men will be viewed the same way as that strange uncle who spends too much time on his own and smells a bit funny at family gatherings. That or those men will set the place on fire and the world will be in a dark place.

So how would you currently view the gender situation yourself then?

Zulu

Iompair wrote: »

No, there's a sizable minority of men who believe that women having equal rights means that they will have less rights.

It's sad but hopefully in 20 years time things will have settled down and those men will be viewed the same way as that strange uncle who spends too much time on his own and smells a bit funny at family gatherings. That or those men will set the place on fire and the world will be in a dark place.

Isn't it funny how threatening the original posters concerns can be to warrant dismissal an insult?


One could reasonably take it as evidence that their concerns aren't unfounded.

Kiith

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

Is it just me and a scattered few or do other men feel there wrongly being under valued and pushed aside now and days?

I think it's just that women spent so long actually being undervalued and pushed aside, that as they gradually got/get closer to equal rights, it might feel like men are losing their rights.

RocketRaccoon

It's not all women of course but I do worry for the children of feminist men haters. They will be brought up to hate men and be told how evil we are, it's a very sad state of affairs.

How Soon Is Now

Kiith wrote: »

I think it's just that women spent so long actually being undervalued and pushed aside, that as they gradually got/get closer to equal rights, it might feel like men are losing their rights.

Being totally honest I've no issue with women getting equal rights compared to men. I do think though that men and women are not equal in the sense where different kinds of people there are issues for both sexs that some would view more serious then others.

I do also think a lot of women even though some will never admit it or would dare let you excuse it of them don't really want to be treated equal they want to be treated better.

listermint

I dont feel this way at all.


I just get on with my normal day and dont feel 'threatened in my masculinity' just because other people are feeling a bit more empowered.

And i dont believe my children will be impacted either.


But sure everyone is different and you are entitled to feel your own thoughts.

Iompair

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

Iompair wrote: »

No, there's a sizable minority of men who believe that women having equal rights means that they will have less rights.

It's sad but hopefully in 20 years time things will have settled down and those men will be viewed the same way as that strange uncle who spends too much time on his own and smells a bit funny at family gatherings. That or those men will set the place on fire and the world will be in a dark place.

So how would you currently view the gender situation yourself then?

Generally changing for the better. Men are being allowed to be proper fathers instead of having to be some distant household dictator with no emotions (or only having emotions when drunk and/or watching sports), young boys being taught that they can be what they want and not having to live up to some old stereotype from the Victorian view of hunter gatherer society.

Women are slowly getting better representation politically and in jobs, no longer trapped at home raising the kids if they don't want to be. The job thing is not helped by the misrepresentation of the pay gap being about gender when a lot of it is about who the primary carer (for kids oral sick/elderly) is. As more men move into sharing the family/home management side of things that will change too.

As a personal opinion the biggest problem for men today is the grinding to a halt of the capitalist machine that brought so many jobs and so much wealth to the lower and middle classes. It was great for the last century but seems to be accumulating more wealth at the top of the pyramid and distributing less down the levels. It's a problem for us all to figure out together but when I see people desperately grabbing for what's becoming a smaller and smaller share of the pie and stomping over anybody they think might be a challenge to them it makes me think that the mad max films might be a clearer vision of the future then star trek.

How Soon Is Now

listermint wrote: »

I dont feel this way at all.


I just get on with my normal day and dont feel 'threatened in my masculinity' just because other people are feeling a bit more empowered.

And i dont believe my children will be impacted either.


But sure everyone is different and you are entitled to feel your own thoughts.

For the most part I tend to try and do the above until something reminds me about other issues.

The thing I do find were shooting ourselves with though is in general most men including myself we try and just get on with things. Not make big deal about situations and just leave it. What if by doing this your allowing people to make choices for you?

How Soon Is Now

Iompair wrote: »

Generally changing for the better. Men are being allowed to be proper fathers instead of having to be some distant household dictator with no emotions (or only having emotions when drunk and/or watching sports), young boys being taught that they can be what they want and not having to live up to some old stereotype from the Victorian view of hunter gatherer society.

Women are slowly getting better representation politically and in jobs, no longer trapped at home raising the kids if they don't want to be. The job thing is not helped by the misrepresentation of the pay gap being about gender when a lot of it is about who the primary carer (for kids oral sick/elderly) is. As more men move into sharing the family/home management side of things that will change too.

As a personal opinion the biggest problem for men today is the grinding to a halt of the capitalist machine that brought so many jobs and so much wealth to the lower and middle classes. It was great for the last century but seems to be accumulating more wealth at the top of the pyramid and distributing less down the levels. It's a problem for us all to figure out together but when I see people desperately grabbing for what's becoming a smaller and smaller share of the pie and stomping over anybody they think might be a challenge to them it makes me think that the mad max films might be a clearer vision of the future then star trek.

The first paragraph you mentioned there do you not think if society moves in direction it's currently going ie female empowerment etc etc that that idea of men being more involved just won't last?

Iompair

Female

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

The first paragraph you mentioned there do you not think if society moves in direction it's currently going ie female empowerment etc etc that that idea of men being more involved just won't last?

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

Iompair wrote: »

Generally changing for the better. Men are being allowed to be proper fathers instead of having to be some distant household dictator with no emotions (or only having emotions when drunk and/or watching sports), young boys being taught that they can be what they want and not having to live up to some old stereotype from the Victorian view of hunter gatherer society.

Women are slowly getting better representation politically and in jobs, no longer trapped at home raising the kids if they don't want to be. The job thing is not helped by the misrepresentation of the pay gap being about gender when a lot of it is about who the primary carer (for kids oral sick/elderly) is. As more men move into sharing the family/home management side of things that will change too.

As a personal opinion the biggest problem for men today is the grinding to a halt of the capitalist machine that brought so many jobs and so much wealth to the lower and middle classes. It was great for the last century but seems to be accumulating more wealth at the top of the pyramid and distributing less down the levels. It's a problem for us all to figure out together but when I see people desperately grabbing for what's becoming a smaller and smaller share of the pie and stomping over anybody they think might be a challenge to them it makes me think that the mad max films might be a clearer vision of the future then star trek.

The first paragraph you mentioned there do you not think if society moves in direction it's currently going ie female empowerment etc etc that that idea of men being more involved just won't last?

Why would womens empowerment remove mens power/involvement?

How Soon Is Now

As far as I can see any sort of empowerment of men now a days is looked down on to the point its seen as not needed full stop.

So female empowerment as its being portrayed in most cases it makes everyone look bad. It makes women look like there looking for any excuse to feel important and it makes men look like there no longer needed or not of use moving forward.

Iompair

Zulu wrote: »

Iompair wrote: »

No, there's a sizable minority of men who believe that women having equal rights means that they will have less rights.

It's sad but hopefully in 20 years time things will have settled down and those men will be viewed the same way as that strange uncle who spends too much time on his own and smells a bit funny at family gatherings. That or those men will set the place on fire and the world will be in a dark place.

Isn't it funny how threatening the original posters concerns can be to warrant dismissal an insult?


One could reasonably take it as evidence that their concerns aren't unfounded.

I'm not threatened by them, they just make me sad that maleness is associated with views like that. That the only way to be empowered is to take away other peoples power. That was my reading of the OP, maybe I took it wrong, he seems to be under the impression that there's a big plan to shove men off to an island somewhere and for women to take over the world. The feminists I know don't hate men, they just want to do there thing without being groped or harassed, it doesn't seem like a big thing to hope for. Of course there's some crazys out there, but no more or less then the male equivalents. I don't judge women by the outliers any more then I judge Brits by looking at Jacob Rees Moggs or  Americans by Trump or Weinsteins actions.

Iompair

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

As far as I can see any sort of empowerment of men now a days is looked down on to the point its seen as not needed full stop.

So female empowerment as its being portrayed in most cases it makes everyone look bad. It makes women look like there looking for any excuse to feel important and it makes men look like there no longer needed or not of use moving forward.

Serious reply, I'm not sure how to read that, no insult meant. Could you elaborate? What empowerment of men is looked down on? What makes every one look bad?

Zulu

Iompair wrote: »

I'm not threatened by them...

Then why bother go to the trouble of dismissing him and insulting? Why not simply address the concern that was raised?


I note that fairly much straight away the OP's concerns were instantly pitted against women's rights and the empowerment of women. Is it only me that sees the two are not necessarily directly connected? Men could be attacked, belittled, a vilified by factors other than female empowerment.



Just saying.

BarryD2

I don't bother much with this stuff. To my (male) mind - men & women are different with an overlap. Each have their strengths and weaknesses. Apart they are weaker, together they are stronger as their respective abilities complement each other. But they can never be 'equal' or 'one better than the other' as we are different and that's about it.

How Soon Is Now

Iompair wrote: »

Serious reply, I'm not sure how to read that, no insult meant. Could you elaborate? What empowerment of men is looked down on? What makes every one look bad?

Well i can only use examples of what i see everyday all around me and what i experience so based on that....


How often do you see anything out there these days thats showing men in a positive encouraging light? Im not talking about celebrity's or famous people just everyday men. The only things we see men mentioned in mostly are directly evolved with women. Just say for example an article was posted on a major news or any form of media website thats main focus was to empower everyday men. Imagine the reaction! :pac:


The length in which women are being made to look superhuman these days makes everyone look bad because its ridiculously forced.


Unfortunately everything thats seen as a step forward for women will in most cases affect men because more often then not theres a group maybe not so small somewhere with a lot of influence over young and middle aged people thats blaming men for there original issues.

Iompair

Zulu wrote: »

Iompair wrote: »

I'm not threatened by them...

Then why bother go to the trouble of dismissing him and insulting? Why not simply address the concern that was raised?


I note that fairly much straight away the OP's concerns were instantly pitted against women's rights and the empowerment of women. Is it only me that sees the two are not necessarily directly connected? Men could be attacked, and belittled by factors other than female empowerment.



Just saying.

Like I said I got a sad that men think this way. I read it as a mealy mouthed attack on women in general and male feminists in particular. That might just have been my reading of it, so what is the concern raised? I've re-read it 3 times now and I still can't see anything bar a "it's terrible that men aren't in charge anymore and what'll we do if young boys aren't taught to be hard and like the colour blue and that women should stay in the kitchen so they're not taking up the jobs that only men can do like swinging a hammer and managing a company"
That's me getting grumpy about the whole thing, the idea that men aren't running things at the moment is pretty laughable when you look at the gender of the politicians of most of the worlds major economies and those running the biggest and wealthiest companies in the world.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Kiith wrote: »

I think it's just that women spent so long actually being undervalued and pushed aside, that as they gradually got/get closer to equal rights, it might feel like men are losing their rights.

What right do men have that women don't have in the civilised world.

How Soon Is Now

Iompair wrote: »

Like I said I got a sad that men think this way. I read it as a mealy mouthed attack on women in general and male feminists in particular. That might just have been my reading of it, so what is the concern raised? I've re-read it 3 times now and I still can't see anything bar a "it's terrible that men aren't in charge anymore and what'll we do if young boys aren't taught to be hard and like the colour blue and that women should stay in the kitchen so they're not taking up the jobs that only men can do like swinging a hammer and managing a company"
That's me getting grumpy about the whole thing, the idea that men aren't running things at the moment is pretty laughable when you look at the gender of the politicians of most of the worlds major economies and those running the biggest and wealthiest companies in the world.

Its not about that at all. I just dont see why if a certain gender is looking to be equally treated it has to come at the expense of the other one.


I know its not a global stance viewed by everyone but its out there enough now for it to be very noticeable.

Iompair

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

Iompair wrote: »

Serious reply, I'm not sure how to read that, no insult meant. Could you elaborate? What empowerment of men is looked down on? What makes every one look bad?

Well i can only use examples of what i see everyday all around me and what i experience so based on that....


How often do you see anything out there these days thats showing men in a positive encouraging light? Im not talking about celebrity's or famous people just everyday men. The only things we see men mentioned in mostly are directly evolved with women. Just say for example an article was posted on a major news or any form of media website thats main focus was to empower everyday men. Imagine the reaction! :pac:


The length in which women are being made to look superhuman these days makes everyone look bad because its ridiculously forced.


Unfortunately everything thats seen as a step forward for women will in most cases affect men because more often then not theres a group maybe not so small somewhere with a lot of influence over young and middle aged people thats blaming men for there original issue.

Of course if you look a the news or media you'll see negative things, that's what they report. There's few views in positive news. I watched the local news last night and the only positive story was on a builder (male) who tracked down an old couples car that they'd forgotten where they parked. The rest was Brexit, shops closing down, a woman being sent to prison for dousing her ex in acid and some guy in court for attacking an old man in his home. And then the weather. Joyous stuff.

Iompair

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

Iompair wrote: »

Like I said I got a sad that men think this way. I read it as a mealy mouthed attack on women in general and male feminists in particular. That might just have been my reading of it, so what is the concern raised? I've re-read it 3 times now and I still can't see anything bar a "it's terrible that men aren't in charge anymore and what'll we do if young boys aren't taught to be hard and like the colour blue and that women should stay in the kitchen so they're not taking up the jobs that only men can do like swinging a hammer and managing a company"
That's me getting grumpy about the whole thing, the idea that men aren't running things at the moment is pretty laughable when you look at the gender of the politicians of most of the worlds major economies and those running the biggest and wealthiest companies in the world.

Its not about that at all. I just dont see why if a certain gender is looking to be equally treated it has to come at the expense of the other one.


I know its not a global stance viewed by everyone but its out there enough now for it to be very noticeable.

What is being taken away from men that is dis empowering them as a gender?

How Soon Is Now

Iompair wrote: »

Of course if you look a the news or media you'll see negative things, that's what they report. There's few views in positive news. I watched the local news last night and the only positive story was on a builder (male) who tracked down an old couples car that they'd forgotten where they parked. The rest was Brexit, shops closing down, a woman being sent to prison for dousing her ex in acid and some guy in court for attacking an old man in his home. And then the weather. Joyous stuff.

Its not even just the news and media. I have an 18 year old brother and cousins of similar ages. Where i used to work there where a lot of younger men and women. Even just going out at the weekend i come across the same things.


There seems to be an awful lot of this general vibe from a lot of younger women and somehow men that men are to blame for so many of the worlds problems especially women's.

seamus

I have to say I don't identify with the OP at all. I don't find my masculinity at all being challenged, but then at the same time I don't pin any part of my identity on stereotypically "masculine" things.

That is, if my wife said that she wanted to be the one to start earning all the money and I would stay at home with the kids, I'd be OK with that. Truth be told I'd jump at it, if it was possible. That's not to say I don't do masculine things or don't act masculine, but I don't have any strong feelings about whether men or women should act in any given way.

I do though understand why some men might feel attacked. There are two aspects to it - the first is the genuine attacks, twidiots who say, "All men do blah" or who treat you with disdain or treat you as an asshole, because you're a man. But they're few and far between.

The second aspect is getting sucked into an oppression mindset where you get defensive and triggered by keywords, without stepping back to look at it objectively. So when you see someone talk about "the patriarchy", you get immediately defensive. When a company chooses to change from a male to a female role model, you assume it's an attack on men, some "PC bull".

People need to get out of the oppression mindset. Call out actual sexism where it exists; no matter who said it or in what context it was said. But also treat an individual's comments fairly and without regard to their gender; don't assume because a women or a man has said something, that there is a gendered agenda to it.

Though OP I have to admit having a little chuckle at parts of your OP. You worry that men's fashion is becoming too "feminine", but then have 1980s Morrissey as your avatar, a time when male fashion was incredibly feminine and foppish, and a man who was arguably king of that.

Iompair

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

Iompair wrote: »

Of course if you look a the news or media you'll see negative things, that's what they report. There's few views in positive news. I watched the local news last night and the only positive story was on a builder (male) who tracked down an old couples car that they'd forgotten where they parked. The rest was Brexit, shops closing down, a woman being sent to prison for dousing her ex in acid and some guy in court for attacking an old man in his home. And then the weather. Joyous stuff.

Its not even just the news and media. I have an 18 year old brother and cousins of similar ages. Where i used to work there where a lot of younger men and women. Even just going out at the weekend i come across the same things.


There seems to be an awful lot of this general vibe from a lot of younger women and somehow men that men are to blame for so many of the worlds problems especially women's.

The older generation are leaving a bit of a **** tip behind them in the world at the moment and most of the leaders have been men? Women have been a 1.5 class citizen for a long time and have some resentment towards the powers that held them in that state for a long time? Yeah it's **** that good men are getting tainted by association but we have to figure out how to treat everybody right, not follow the old stereotypes of how to be a big man or "get" a woman. It's not easy, most of our cultural baggage is set on that old view of the world, so it's a bit like nanny who's a bit racist when you chat to her but loves the new polish hairdresser she goes to. We'll do it bit by bit and generation by generation.

How Soon Is Now

seamus wrote: »

I have to say I don't identify with the OP at all. I don't find my masculinity at all being challenged, but then at the same time I don't pin any part of my identity on stereotypically "masculine" things.

That is, if my wife said that she wanted to be the one to start earning all the money and I would stay at home with the kids, I'd be OK with that. Truth be told I'd jump at it, if it was possible. That's not to say I don't do masculine things or don't act masculine, but I don't have any strong feelings about whether men or women should act in any given way.

I do though understand why some men might feel attacked. There are two aspects to it - the first is the genuine attacks, twidiots who say, "All men do blah" or who treat you with disdain or treat you as an asshole, because you're a man. But they're few and far between.

The second aspect is getting sucked into an oppression mindset where you get defensive and triggered by keywords, without stepping back to look at it objectively. So when you see someone talk about "the patriarchy", you get immediately defensive. When a company chooses to change from a male to a female role model, you assume it's an attack on men, some "PC bull".

People need to get out of the oppression mindset. Call out actual sexism where it exists; no matter who said it or in what context it was said. But also treat an individual's comments fairly and without regard to their gender; don't assume because a women or a man has said something, that there is a gendered agenda to it.

Though OP I have to admit having a little chuckle at parts of your OP. You worry that men's fashion is becoming too "feminine", but then have 1980s Morrissey as your avatar, a time when male fashion was incredibly feminine and foppish, and a man who was arguably king of that.

:pac: Ya good auld Morrissey lol!


I actually agree with certain parts of what your saying in the above. I do feel personally ive seen enough both online and in person to feel its not just a small few and far between groups of people that are targeting men.


The whole masculine thing its not so much that i wanna be seen as some macho man and thats how we should all be.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Iompair wrote: »

Like I said I got a sad that men think this way. I read it as a mealy mouthed attack on women in general and male feminists in particular. That might just have been my reading of it, so what is the concern raised? I've re-read it 3 times now and I still can't see anything bar a "it's terrible that men aren't in charge anymore and what'll we do if young boys aren't taught to be hard and like the colour blue and that women should stay in the kitchen so they're not taking up the jobs that only men can do like swinging a hammer and managing a company"
That's me getting grumpy about the whole thing, the idea that men aren't running things at the moment is pretty laughable when you look at the gender of the politicians of most of the worlds major economies and those running the biggest and wealthiest companies in the world.

The fact that some men run companies or are the major politicians in some countries doesn’t mean that all are, or that men as a whole benefit from that. Nor would women as a whole benefit from the opposite. Which gender is running the top 0.1% isn’t that important. It’s not like they share the power or money across the gender.

Anyway 4th wave feminism is clear that it wants to remove male privilege. It’s not therefore a zero sum game.

Tefral

OP you'd be surprised, but if you take a step back from the online world you'll find that It's actually normal.

Social media and Twitter give voices to eegits that just shout people down, that in real life aren't represented at all. I found that just ignoring the online ****e it's not actually bad at all.

How Soon Is Now

Tefral wrote: »

OP you'd be surprised, but if you take a step back from the online world you'll find that It's actually normal.

Social media and Twitter give voices to eegits that just shout people down, that in real life aren't represented at all. I found that just ignoring the online ****e it's not actually bad at all.

It's a part of it but it's not just the online world believe me like I've said I've experienced enough of it to see it out and about. The reason it's so much more obvious online is because it's easier for people to say what they want.

I dunno if you live in Dublin? Remember the day or so after the results of the rugby rape trial? I was in and around town that day they had the protest on. The online crazy feminist types where to be seen and heard all around that area.

There where men in that crowd supporting all of this as well. I just don't understand that. If you want to speak up in favour of women's rights as a man great but your also defending and supporting the bull**** being aimed towards men.

That's my issue really I don't care about people wanting progression rights etc what I'm not okay with is unnecessary rubbish being aimed at men and it being okay to say what you like about us because sure where the evil source of everything where not allowed complain.

It's all well and good ignoring things and getting on with it but there's already been enough changes and things aimed at men in general to see the longer it carrys on how do you stop it?

The last gay pride day I was in work in the city center heading home I got abused by group of women dunno what sexuailty they where telling me i was a stupid backwards white man and shouldn't be allowed have an opinion on anything. Its not just twitter or far away in America its a part of Irish society I can only imagine what's going on in secondary schools and colleges.

CramCycle

listermint wrote: »

I dont feel this way at all.


I just get on with my normal day and dont feel 'threatened in my masculinity' just because other people are feeling a bit more empowered.

And i dont believe my children will be impacted either.


But sure everyone is different and you are entitled to feel your own thoughts.

seamus wrote: »

I have to say I don't identify with the OP at all. I don't find my masculinity at all being challenged, but then at the same time I don't pin any part of my identity on stereotypically "masculine" things.

That is, if my wife said that she wanted to be the one to start earning all the money and I would stay at home with the kids, I'd be OK with that. Truth be told I'd jump at it, if it was possible. That's not to say I don't do masculine things or don't act masculine, but I don't have any strong feelings about whether men or women should act in any given way.

I do though understand why some men might feel attacked. There are two aspects to it - the first is the genuine attacks, twidiots who say, "All men do blah" or who treat you with disdain or treat you as an asshole, because you're a man. But they're few and far between.

The second aspect is getting sucked into an oppression mindset where you get defensive and triggered by keywords, without stepping back to look at it objectively. So when you see someone talk about "the patriarchy", you get immediately defensive. When a company chooses to change from a male to a female role model, you assume it's an attack on men, some "PC bull".

People need to get out of the oppression mindset. Call out actual sexism where it exists; no matter who said it or in what context it was said. But also treat an individual's comments fairly and without regard to their gender; don't assume because a women or a man has said something, that there is a gendered agenda to it.

Though OP I have to admit having a little chuckle at parts of your OP. You worry that men's fashion is becoming too "feminine", but then have 1980s Morrissey as your avatar, a time when male fashion was incredibly feminine and foppish, and a man who was arguably king of that.

I agree almost 100% with the above posters. The only thing I can deduce from the OP is that you are either unknowingly sexist (and many of us are, I am myself), and you haven't realised that being equal means exactly that. The other is, and I it is only a hypothetical, you are posting with very PC terminology in the hopes of eliciting a reaction from less PC savvy posters.

I really don't see anything your saying in Ireland, I hear alot of people claiming it in chats at work and the pub, but nothing to indicate that it is actually a thing, and when you hear the reasoning, you generally deduce it is that some people don't liek being equal. Male rights have not been eroded as female rights have been improved (from a very low base in this country). The truth of the matter is, if anything, in the few cases I don't see equality, it is still females who are getting the short straw.

Zubeneschamali

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

I've always been very proud of being a man/male and respected the values of who we are and what we do and have to do for ourselves our family's and our friends.

Okay, I think I see your problem.


No-one else, male or female, gives a crap about any of that.

jimmycrackcorm

How Soon Is Now wrote:

It could be something as simple as our fashion becoming more feminine

When I see the young lads with slightly short trousers and no socks I think WTF is that about? Real men don't really like stinky feet.

iptba

Iompair wrote: »

The feminists I know don't hate men, they just want to do there thing without being groped or harassed, it doesn't seem like a big thing to hope for.

I don't think that's a good definition of feminism.

hometruths

I think the problem the OP is referring to is a result of the rise of identity politics which is adversarial in nature without any sense of compromise.

It's not necessarily just about gender, that is just one of the battlegrounds.

riffmongous

Got to agree with Seamus, in no way is my identity or self worth tied to my gender, so I can't say I've ever noticed or felt anything.

In fact if it wasn't for Boards I wouldn't even realise anyone cares

hometruths

riffmongous wrote: »

Got to agree with Seamus, in no way is my identity or self worth tied to my gender, so I can't say I've ever noticed or felt anything.

In fact if it wasn't for Boards I wouldn't even realise anyone cares

I get that self worth is nothing to with gender, but I find it impossible to understand how an individual's identity is not, even in a small way, related to their gender.

Do you mean that your gender is utterly irrelevant to your identity?

iptba

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

There seems to be an awful lot of this general vibe from a lot of younger women and somehow men that men are to blame for so many of the worlds problems especially women's.

I think there is something to this. For example, problems can be blamed on the "patriarchy" which is basically blaming men.

Sleeper12

Men outrank women.
Not saying that is right. Just saying that is the way it is. It gets worse if you are religious because every religion ranks men above women

silverharp

a kid in the uk tweeted a photo of a slide a teacher had put up, they were doing macbeth and the question was to discuss Macbeth in terms of toxic masculinity , he said he asked about toxic femininity (lady macbeth hello) and the teacher replied that doesnt exist. I can only hope this kind of nonsense ever hits irish schools

SleetAndSnow

silverharp wrote: »

a kid in the uk tweeted a photo of a slide a teacher had put up, they were doing macbeth and the question was to discuss Macbeth in terms of toxic masculinity , he said he asked about toxic femininity (lady macbeth hello) and the teacher replied that doesnt exist. I can only hope this kind of nonsense ever hits irish schools

I mean it has, we talk about toxic masculinity all the time in school, and it was in macbeth too. Somebody asked about toxic femininity with regards to Lady Macbeth and the teacher just said stop being silly and moved on with talking about Macbeth's main issues, along with the majority of the class laughing at a valid point in a play. Sure the question was about toxic masculinity, but I still think it was a valid question. Interesting that you bought that up since it only happened to last week

iptba

silverharp wrote: »

a kid in the uk tweeted a photo of a slide a teacher had put up, they were doing macbeth and the question was to discuss Macbeth in terms of toxic masculinity , he said he asked about toxic femininity (lady macbeth hello) and the teacher replied that doesnt exist. I can only hope this kind of nonsense ever hits irish schools

UCD

http://www.ucd.ie/englishdramafilm/subjects/english/

In English we teach a wide range of subjects, from Anglo-Irish Literature, including Joyce, to Romantic and Victorian literature, modernism and contemporary literature, American literature and world literature in English, early modern writing and medieval studies, and women’s writing and gender studies.

This is what undergraduate students are learning who go on to be future teachers so I imagine it could happen here.

lawred2

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

So how would you currently view the gender situation yourself then?

Grand

Sonics2k

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

So how would you currently view the gender situation yourself then?

I honestly don't care about any gender situation. My gender doesn't define me or who I am.

I work and provide for my children, I care for and love my fiancée. I'm pretty good at DIY and can do some basic mechanical work on the car or motorbike when I need to.

But, my mother did all the same things when I was young.

What should define you is not your gender, but your actions. And to hell with both the right wingers and left wingers who say otherwise.

How Soon Is Now

Sonics2k wrote: »

I honestly don't care about any gender situation. My gender doesn't define me or who I am.

I work and provide for my children, I care for and love my fiancée. I'm pretty good at DIY and can do some basic mechanical work on the car or motorbike when I need to.

But, my mother did all the same things when I was young.

What should define you is not your gender, but your actions. And to hell with both the right wingers and left wingers who say otherwise.

I agree with what your saying but the majority of people base a lot of assumptions on how they view people based on there genders. Not much we can really do about it.

drunkmonkey

If I ever come home and see the Mrs has figured out how to work the lawnmower I'll start to get worried.

seamus

schmittel wrote: »

I get that self worth is nothing to with gender, but I find it impossible to understand how an individual's identity is not, even in a small way, related to their gender.

Do you mean that your gender is utterly irrelevant to your identity?

Yeah, I think that's basically it. Gender shapes who are, naturally, but it doesn't define who we have to be. Men don't have to act like men or feel like men or do manly things. Same for women.

I'm reminded of a thread on AH where someone suggested changing the Irish flag and anthem. One poster remarked that he felt they were part of his physical identity; that it would be like changing his face or losing a limb. And while understandable, that's objectively crazy. It's a song and a flag.

But like nationalism, unfortunately some people are brought up to believe that gender stereotypes are part of the fibre of their being. And that they must adhere to these stereotypes. And of course it means any criticism of those stereotypes, is a direct personal attack on them.

When..it's not.

hometruths

seamus wrote: »

Yeah, I think that's basically it. Gender shapes who are, naturally, but it doesn't define who we have to be. Men don't have to act like men or feel like men or do manly things. Same for women.

I'm reminded of a thread on AH where someone suggested changing the Irish flag and anthem. One poster remarked that he felt they were part of his physical identity; that it would be like changing his face or losing a limb. And while understandable, that's objectively crazy. It's a song and a flag.

But like nationalism, unfortunately some people are brought up to believe that gender stereotypes are part of the fibre of their being. And that they must adhere to these stereotypes. And of course it means any criticism of those stereotypes, is a direct personal attack on them.

When..it's not.

So if gender and nationality are irrelevant to your identity, what factors do influence your identity?

seamus

schmittel wrote: »

So if gender and nationality are irrelevant to your identity, what factors do influence your identity?

The things that come naturally to me, the things I enjoy doing. Many of which are no doubt because I am male. And we can't deny the genetic and social impacts that gender has on what shapes us.
But while those aspects of my personality are part of my identity, it's not reciprocal; I don't feel like I need to feel "like a man" and I don't feel any need to defend "men" as a group just because I am one.

I guess what I'm trying to express in this wankology is that there is a fundamental difference between "man" the gender and "man" the stereotype. An attack on the latter is not an attack on the former.

BarryD2

Iompair wrote: »

The older generation are leaving a bit of a **** tip behind them in the world at the moment and most of the leaders have been men?

Eh.. Michelle and Arlene up the wee north aren't exactly setting the world on fire (thankfully). Now there's a place where you'd think women would be more pragmatic and open to compromise. But if anything, they're more entrenched than the men they've replaced.

Theresa May, Mary Harney, Maggie Thatcher etc.??????

So it's fine in theory to say that women would make better leaders but now I'm not so sure and after all, for the many sons that have gone off to war, there's been a mother behind them.

But back to OP, technology & mechanisation are strong contributing factors to men feeling less useful in the world. The need for men to just complete physical tasks in order to keep society on the go has diminished somewhat. That said, I think there are still a good number of jobs where most women would instinctively not go near, no matter how much of a feminist they are. Just dirty, difficult and sometimes dangerous work.

hometruths

seamus wrote: »

The things that come naturally to me, the things I enjoy doing. Many of which are no doubt because I am male. And we can't deny the genetic and social impacts that gender has on what shapes us.
But while those aspects of my personality are part of my identity, it's not reciprocal; I don't feel like I need to feel "like a man" and I don't feel any need to defend "men" as a group just because I am one.

I guess what I'm trying to express in this wankology is that there is a fundamental difference between "man" the gender and "man" the stereotype. An attack on the latter is not an attack on the former.

I get that there is a difference between man the gender and man the stereotype. Stereotypes are by definition, exaggerations.

But whilst I understand the idea that you don't identify as a "stereotypical" man, with respect it is utter nonsense to say your identity is shaped by:

"things that come naturally to me, the things I enjoy doing. Many of which are no doubt because I am male. And we can't deny the genetic and social impacts that gender has on what shapes us"

and also say that gender is irrelevant to your identity.

I guess the point I am making is that increasingly I hear people talking about what they don't identify with - gender, race, etc etc - and they disown these concepts passionately. But when you ask them what they do identify with, they struggle to pin anything down.