Do any other men feel the same?

Drumpot

_Brian wrote: »

I can’t see why women being treated as equals makes men feel less like men.

Same for society calling out those committing sexual harassment, why would stopping that make me feel less of a man.

If these changes in society make you feel less of a man then you’ve been basing your masculinity on the wrong measures and honestly your part of the problem.

I’ve two daughters and anything that strengthens their position in society is ok by me. If a few chest thumping neanderthals feel a bit emasculated then that’s a small price.

I can’t see how anybody could come to this thread , read everything respectfully and thoughtfully and post that.....

There are so many posts from quite prejudice self absorbed people who don’t even understand the importance of the OPs willingness to actually post.

To summarize those having a go at the OP

- I’m alright jack so you should get over yourself
- inequality mainly exists for woman , I won’t awknowledge anything that contradicts it
- I’ve see inequality in my life so know it’s mostly against woman
- I’ve daughters so I’m glad of whatever is done to balance the scales
- stop acting like a victim

I’ve tried to keep away from this cause Wibbs is doing a great job responding respectfully and patiently but there is some amount of waffle being posted from those who are double downing on their very misguided and ignorant views. The politest I can say is that they don’t understand why it’s important men learn to be able to express their feelings , even if you don’t agree with them.

The OP said they were worried about the way the world is changing , what their place is in the world and how that will affect their children. If you don’t relate to that and have nothing remotely constructive to add then feel free not to educate people in the logic of unquestionably following an inequality movement that only caters for and respects one side.

Debtocracy

I think we need more whining, oppressed men for balance. The current bias in the media is creating a generation of oppressed middle class white women who think they’ve never had it so bad. If there were more men’s rights issues it would hold up a mirror to women. Indeed, if men’s rights issues are brought up with women, it’s always trivialised and men told to grow up – ‘then why did you marry her in the first place/ have kids etc.’

Here’s the thing, if you live your life believing you part of a victimised, oppressed group, you will tend to amount to an average, resentful person at best – you will believe that everyone more successful than you got there because of their privilege, while you feel you work harder than everyone else and your master’s degree entitles you to become a millionaire.

The more I hear oppressed people talk, the more I hear narcissistic dynamics. These develop when parents fail to exert appropriate boundaries on their child. The child believes that it is their parent’s responsibility to meet all of their needs and a failure to get them leads to intense anger and temper tantrums. Then they go to primary school and the reality hits hard that they’re not as special as their parents make them out to be. However, psychological defences gradually build overtime to maintain the narcisstic fantasy – he’s not really better than me, the teacher just prefers boys/rich kids/insert privileged group etc.

So it’s no wonder it’s so common to feel oppressed on the basis of first world problems. You can keep up the narcisstic fantasy – people would see how special I am if I wasn’t so oppressed.

Drumpot

Debtocracy wrote: »

I think we need more whining, oppressed men for balance. The current bias in the media is creating a generation of oppressed middle class white women who think they’ve never had it so bad. If there were more men’s rights issues it would hold up a mirror to women. Indeed, if men’s rights issues are brought up with women, it’s always trivialised and men told to grow up – ‘then why did you marry her in the first place/ have kids etc.’

Here’s the thing, if you live your life believing you part of a victimised, oppressed group, you will tend to amount to an average, resentful person at best – you will believe that everyone more successful than you got there because of their privilege, while you feel you work harder than everyone else and your master’s degree entitles you to become a millionaire.

The more I hear oppressed people talk, the more I hear narcissistic dynamics. These develop when parents fail to exert appropriate boundaries on their child. The child believes that it is their parent’s responsibility to meet all of their needs and a failure to get them leads to intense anger and temper tantrums. Then they go to primary school and the reality hits hard that they’re not as special as their parents make them out to be. However, psychological defences gradually build overtime to maintain the narcisstic fantasy – he’s not really better than me, the teacher just prefers boys/rich kids/insert privileged group etc.

So it’s no wonder it’s so common to feel oppressed on the basis of first world problems. You can keep up the narcisstic fantasy – people would see how special I am if I wasn’t so oppressed.

And in an effort to balance things out society over indulges every whim of the movement with little to no regulation or reflection.

I agree with your general sentiments but I wasn’t sure if you were posting that as an attack on the OP or not.

Unlike movements that tell people what they should think and demand obedience the OP asked if others felt the same. It’s not whining, it’s actually self regulation and asking for input and insight from others.

professore

Gender has been made into an issue by the media with phrases like "toxic masculinity". How this is permitted is beyond me when you can't say "toxic Islam" or "toxic homosexuality" without rightly losing your job. How destructive is this narrative to young boys? It's far worse than any sexist ads from the 1950s.

That's the problem I think the OP is seeing. The vast vast majority of men are good and only trying to make a decent life treating everyone with respect and dignity. As are the vast vast majority of women. Why can't we just call out real discrimination when we see it and leave it at that?

professore

NinetyTwoTeam wrote: »

I think you might want to brush up on your history. a bit OP.

Male fashion becoming more feminine? because of what, skinny jeans and hair gel? you know it used to be common for men to wear wigs and tights and all kinds of frilly gear not to mention makeup? and this wasn't cross dressers or gay men we're talking about.

Men are being seen as the bad ones? Well how many men have started wars vs how many women? Ditto murderers, child molesters, rapists, spousal abusers. Men have been using their physical advantage to violate others for centuries, and continue to do so today. not to mention denying women rights to vote, work, bodily automony.

Now, plenty of us men are not violent or horrible but unfortunately the things that men have done throughout history have given us a lot to answer for.

I don't see us being watered down, I see some of us copping on and improving, being less like neanderthals, while others are feeling like they under attack simply because they're afraid that they are no longer going to be on the dominant winning team that has all the advantages.

I'm glad to see the feminine side of our population rising up, and like a previous poster said I don't pay attention to the extremists.

I think no matter what happens during the rest of our current lifetimes, we'll still have it pretty good. If I died today and was reincarnated tomorrow, or even ten, twenty, thirty years from now, and could choose my gender, I'd choose to be a man every single time. I'd say you would too OP. You probably are so used to having the advantages of being a male you take them for granted at this point and don't even notice them.

For example, when I used to drink I often enjoyed sitting at the bar on my own and having a few pints just chilling with my own thoughts for company, and for the most part I would be left to it. A lot of the time a woman alone at a bar will not be left undisturbed for long. At the end of the night also I could walk home alone feeling safe enough. If someone of the opposite gender was walking behind me in the dark, no need to worry. If I was a woman - totally different scenario.

and when you look at the numbers of single parents, how many men are choosing to be one vs how many women? or more accurately, why is it often a matter of choice for a man whether or not he wants to be a parent while a women is expected to do it no matter what, and often has to do so while working for less money than a man makes in the same job.

i don't see where you can make a case that men are getting a raw deal OP, i really don't. and if our gender is being 'watered down', well maybe it needs to be. and maybe it's our own fault, considering we've made women have to fight so hard for equal treatment. we made them have to act like men to be seen as equals, we didnt give them any of the rights that have been denied to them by being sugar and spice and everything nice.

Speak for yourself about making women work hard for equal treatment. I didn't and I bet the OP didn't either.

Why don't you make a similar case against black criminals in the US? Or Muslim terrorism? Or Jews controlling the media and banking sectors? Can't you see how sexist you are?

Calhoun

As I have already said case in point to part of the problem we have is the invasion of the triggered feminists who can't accept that men don't have it all that great either.

As someone pointed out on the thread already in many cases they have all the rights as men but have not adopted all the responsibility.

Which to be fair is fine but when men are constantly under attack in the media ect because they are the big bad rapey wolves. You do get the perception that it's wrong just to be male.

irishrebe

Drumpot wrote: »

_Brian wrote: »

I can’t see why women being treated as equals makes men feel less like men.

Same for society calling out those committing sexual harassment, why would stopping that make me feel less of a man.

If these changes in society make you feel less of a man then you’ve been basing your masculinity on the wrong measures and honestly your part of the problem.

I’ve two daughters and anything that strengthens their position in society is ok by me. If a few chest thumping neanderthals feel a bit emasculated then that’s a small price.

I can’t see how anybody could come to this thread , read everything respectfully and thoughtfully and post that.....

There are so many posts from quite prejudice self absorbed people who don’t even understand the importance of the OPs willingness to actually post.

To summarize those having a go at the OP

- I’m alright jack so you should get over yourself
- inequality mainly exists for woman , I won’t awknowledge anything that contradicts it
- I’ve see inequality in my life so know it’s mostly against woman
- I’ve daughters so I’m glad of whatever is done to balance the scales
- stop acting like a victim

I’ve tried to keep away from this cause Wibbs is doing a great job responding respectfully and patiently but there is some amount of waffle being posted from those who are double downing on their very misguided and ignorant views. The politest I can say is that they don’t understand why it’s important men learn to be able to express their feelings , even if you don’t agree with them.

The OP said they were worried about the way the world is changing , what their place is in the world and how that will affect their children. If you don’t relate to that and have nothing remotely constructive to add then feel free not to educate people in the logic of unquestionably  following an inequality movement that only caters for and respects one side.

This is probably the biggest cause of the current 'gender war' that seems to be happening. Some men don't know what their place in the world is anymore. I'm not sure what the solution is to this, though. Whose fault do you think it is and what should they do about it?

Drumpot

irishrebe wrote: »

This is probably the biggest cause of the current 'gender war' that seems to be happening. Some men don't know what their place in the world is anymore. I'm not sure what the solution is to this, though. Whose fault do you think it is and what should they do about it?

I suppose don’t think it’s a case of whose fault is , just a case that we have gotten here by a correction being required (more equal rights between the sexes) and no regulation or reflection of unintended consequences.

I mean take the abortion referendum. I voted yes cause I wanted choice and support to be available to woman. But now that the choice is available the major issue has hopefully been addressed. I want discussion to move onto how do we value that choice in instances where two consenting adults have an Oops conception.

I have sons who will grow up in an Ireland that promotes woman’s choice on abortion. They won’t know of “a time when woman didn’t have choice” so it shouldn’t be something that’s held against them. But let’s say my boys are in a loving relationship and a woman has an abortion without even saying it to him. They may grow up in an Ireland where woman’s choice means “no consideration for your partner”, sure why SHOULD she even tell her partner? That’s what I don’t want. I want a more balanced discussion and balanced values now that a rebalance has been addressed. The woman should ultimately decide but there should be a value to their partner in an equal relationship.

In terms of people (not just men) valuing themselves and their views I think a lot of it comes from modern culture that’s toxic to us all. I do think there is a victim culture being groomed and a lot is down to the contracting out of our personal responsibility for our actions. Don’t be happy with who you are, what life has dealt you or what you own, there is somebody/something to blame. If you have a problem or disagree with something the easiest way to not take responsibility is to attach yourself to a cause. Self respect and self confidence is no longer valued as much as self esteem and group/social validation.

I think a better society is one that is prepared to be challenged and challange its own beliefs and values. Look at what happened when the institutional abuse of the Catholic Church went unchallenged! Another example is our political “debates” and even the way I learned how to discuss things (I’m trying to change!!!!). Debating is seen as “wait for somebody to finish so you can attack them and force your views down the throat of others” instead of genuinely factoring in and reflecting on your opponents concerns or awknowledging areas where they are actually correct.

One think I am trying is to being open to be challenged on my own views. It’s very very hard but the more open I am the more enlightened and empowered I feel. I’m not as rigid or suffocated by certain core beliefs that can still make me angry. Being absolutely certain about some things in life has led me to confrontation and pain.

Why is what I am going through important in the context of this thread? I suppose I feel and have felt some of the things the OP has felt. A lifetime of searching through a highly sensitive and anxious vessel has led me to philosophy and Buddhist teachings that I still don’t fully understand or practice but they have helped greatly. They are not about woman and me, black or white, they are about people and humanity. They don’t discriminate (certainly not the stuff I have been reading) and I find them comforting and grounding when I get upset about the kinds of things being discussed here and in general.

I have been patronizing and snotty to people here and I am trying to regulate it and accept or awknowledge it. But it can be hard to keep your head when this is generally taken to be a “see you are wrong so your whole views are invalid” nail in your coffin...

Ah I digress. I’m reading a philosophical book and it’s so enlightening so I’m half regurgitating some really insightful stuff!!!

I suppose I want to be ultimately able to respect other people’s views (not totally there yet) and to be able to engage others knowing that the same will apply. It doesn’t feel to me like the OP was looking to antagonize people with their post. The fact that they posted in a gentleman’s forum suggested they wanted to find out if other men shared their concerns. Perhaps they worded it in a way that antagonized some people who interpreted it differently but I think they have been very open to correction and elaborating on why they feel the way they do. This is, IMO, a very progressive way of sharing your thoughts and feelings, particularly for a man!

Calhoun

Drumpot wrote: »

I suppose I want to be ultimately able to respect other people’s views (not totally there yet) and to be able to engage others knowing that the same will apply. It doesn’t feel to me like the OP was looking to antagonize people with their post. The fact that they posted in a gentleman’s forum suggested they wanted to find out if other men shared their concerns. Perhaps they worded it in a way that antagonized some people who interpreted it differently but I think they have been very open to correction and elaborating on why they feel the way they do. This is, IMO, a very progressive way of sharing your thoughts and feelings, particularly for a man!

In my mind this stuff has to be talked about, look at the video that was posted in mens rights thread recently. The sheer volume of suicides from a male perspective is absolutely insane.

I don't think the OP was trying to antagonize people, i think it was the otherway round. This isnt just a general forum this is a forum to discuss men's issues, we obviously dont need an echo chamber but i dont want to have to fight every time we have a discussion on issues related to men or playing one up in the victim Olympics in order to shut people down and not have a conversation.

irishrebe

Calhoun wrote: »

Drumpot wrote: »

I suppose I want to be ultimately able to respect other people’s views (not totally there yet) and to be able to engage others knowing that the same will apply. It doesn’t feel to me like the OP was looking to antagonize people with their post. The fact that they posted in a gentleman’s forum suggested they wanted to find out if other men shared their concerns. Perhaps they worded it in a way that antagonized some people who interpreted it differently but I think they have been very open to correction and elaborating on why they feel the way they do. This is, IMO, a very progressive way of sharing your thoughts and feelings, particularly for a man!

In my mind this stuff has to be talked about, look at the video that was posted in mens rights thread recently.  The sheer volume of suicides from a male perspective is absolutely insane.

I don't think the OP was trying to antagonize people, i think it was the otherway round. This isnt just a general forum this is a forum to discuss men's issues, we obviously dont need an echo chamber but i dont want to have to fight every time we have a discussion on issues related to men or playing one up in the victim Olympics in order to shut people down and not have a conversation.

It seems that that that is what some people want, though. Absolutely nobody is trying to play one up in the 'victim Olympics'. Male and female posters have stated why they don't share or understand OP's view, and explained why. And yet the men especially are being criticised for saying they can't identify with OP's perspective at all.

Wibbs

irishrebe wrote: »

Whose fault do you think it is and what should they do about it?

TBH IR I don't think it's a "who" or "they" going on. Certainly nothing organised or conspiratorial. I would say what Drumpot mentioned about a much needed correction is part of it, but some quarters have run with that to the point of overcorrection.

In considerations like this one of my first ports of call is to Follow The Money™. Equality in law in the west is pretty much a given, but the most vocal media and education and political feminists having achieved that(well their mothers and fathers did) would be "out of a job", so more and more examples of sexism and the like are hunted out to keep the gravy train running. Gender identity politics needs and encourages that. Well if the same lot were to say that we've come a long way and sure there's a bit to go on all sides, but we'll do it together minus the gender war nonsense then their role would be much diminished, if not pointless. So you get all the ever more silly intersectional nonsense looking for something, anything to keep it going. In short turkeys won't vote for Christmas and employed feminists won't vote for sanity.

Secondly The Money™ and consumerism itself loves "feminism". It creates clickbait and uncertainty for a start, more it creates more wealth for them. Convincing women to enter the workplace means more money to spend on stuff and more workers to provide it. The largest wealth transfer in American history has been the one from men to women over the last 40 years. That's a huge demographic gravy train to exploit and shout You go girl! to. And exploit it they do. Look at women's body confidence as one example. The media and advertisers swing between pointing out women's flaws and pushing products to fix them(this seems to work way more on women than men, likely because it's been going on for much longer and is more honed. Its actually worse now than in the bad old days). One might even argue that attacking masculinity as "toxic" makes for more complaint male workers. Women workers are already less likely to ask for a raise which is handy. Though if the pay gap actually existed to the degree some would have us believe why would any employer hire men, not when you can apparently get women to do the same job for 20% less?

I'm not sure what the solution is to this, though.

I'm not so sure myself TBH IR. I certainly don't think men looking to feminism is the answer, that's for damned sure. Indeed I would go so far as to say it's beyond idiotic. Yeah, let's encourage young men not sure of what's what into a political philosophy that blames them for everything and considers them toxic unless the swallow the feminist mantra wholesale. QV the various "we kinda deserve it for being Neandertals™, so be a Good Little Boy™" stuff in this thread. Recipe for self conscious carrying low level guilt men.

irishrebe

Wibbs wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

Whose fault do you think it is and what should they do about it?

TBH IR I don't think it's a "who" or "they" going on. Certainly nothing organised or conspiratorial. I would say what Drumpot mentioned about a much needed correction is part of it, but some quarters have run with that to the point of overcorrection.

In considerations like this one of my first ports of call is to Follow The Money™. Equality in law in the west is pretty much a given, but the most vocal media and education and political feminists having achieved that(well their mothers and fathers did) would be "out of a job", so more and more examples of sexism and the like are hunted out to keep the gravy train running. Gender identity politics needs and encourages that. Well if the same lot were to say that we've come a long way and sure there's a bit to go on all sides, but we'll do it together minus the gender war nonsense then their role would be much diminished, if not pointless. So you get all the ever more silly intersectional nonsense looking for something, anything to keep it going. In short turkeys won't vote for Christmas and employed feminists won't vote for sanity.

Secondly The Money™ and consumerism itself loves "feminism". It creates clickbait and uncertainty for a start, more it creates more wealth for them. Convincing women to enter the workplace means more money to spend on stuff and more workers to provide it. The largest wealth transfer in American history has been the one from men to women over the last 40 years. That's a huge demographic gravy train to exploit and shout You go girl! to. And exploit it they do. Look at women's body confidence as one example. The media and advertisers swing between pointing out women's flaws and pushing products to fix them(this seems to work way more on women than men, likely because it's been going on for much longer and is more honed. Its actually worse now than in the bad old days). One might even argue that attacking masculinity as "toxic" makes for more complaint male workers. Women workers are already less likely to ask for a raise which is handy. Though if the pay gap actually existed to the degree some would have us believe why would any employer hire men, not when you can apparently get women to do the same job for 20% less?

I'm not sure what the solution is to this, though.

I'm not so sure myself TBH IR. I certainly don't think men looking to feminism is the answer, that's for damned sure. Indeed I would go so far as to say it's beyond idiotic. Yeah, let's encourage young men not sure of what's what into a political philosophy that blames them for everything and considers them toxic unless the swallow the feminist mantra wholesale. QV the various "we kinda deserve it for being Neandertals™, so be a Good Little Boy™" stuff in this thread. Recipe for self conscious carrying low level guilt men.

But where exactly is this mentality? Yes, there are consequences now for being like an @sshole, sexually harassing women and so on, just as there always should have been. I genuinely don't understand why some men are taking this as a personal attack or feeling victimised by it. I don't know many men who would identify with the sentiments expressed by the OP, and they are not pathetic wallflowers having their balls trampled on by the feminists. They're secure in their masculinity so why would they feel threatened by a fashion for pink shirts, women now having the right to have an abortion or whatever?

Calhoun

If you don't know I don't think your ever going to understand or want to because you have no interest in looking past your own viewpoint.

How Soon Is Now

I've been open enough to what everyone's had to say and there experience s and views on everything. I'm not insecure in myself or worried about my masculinity that's not the issue. I'm just not into the direction society is going in with how it mainly views men and yes women also.

To be totally honest I've seen how things went when I got into debate or even simple conversation on subjects like this in After Hours in the past so I'm just not going down that road again so I'm staying out of certain aspects of the conversation.

End the day my issues are with society and the people driving it I'm happy and surprised that I've gotten such a good response on here in general if only it was that simple in general!

Calhoun

irishrebe wrote: »

It seems that that that is what some people want, though. Absolutely nobody is trying to play one up in the 'victim Olympics'. Male and female posters have stated why they don't share or understand OP's view, and explained why. And yet the men especially are being criticised for saying they can't identify with OP's perspective at all.

Nobody wants an echo chamber, people will always look to be challenged it's hard to argue against the view that you have it fine and should just shut up.

Anybody regardless of sex will be challenged when accepting that labels are ok because of past actions or individual experiences.

irishrebe

Calhoun wrote: »

If you don't know I don't think your ever going to understand or want to because you have no interest in looking past your own viewpoint.

And neither can you see anyone else's. Of course it's easier for everyone to see the ways in which they are disadvantaged, because it's their personal experience, but your posts are chock full of assumptions and statements about things you clearly have little to no knowledge of (e.g. sexism in tech, stability of tech jobs, etc.).  It's one thing to debate with someone who has the information and disagrees with your point of view, but pointless to do so when one party is making baseless assumptions. It would be interesting to read some personal accounts from men regarding how being male has resulted in disadvantage. Specific things that have happened, rather than vague whataboutery regarding 'fashion being too girly'. Of course, it may be too personal to share, but I for one would find it very interesting to see that point of view.

Calhoun

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

I've been open enough to what everyone's had to say and there experience s and views on everything. I'm not insecure in myself or worried about my masculinity that's not the issue. I'm just not into the direction society is going in with how it mainly views men and yes women also.

To be totally honest I've seen how things went when I got into debate or even simple conversation on subjects like this in After Hours in the past so I'm just not going down that road again so I'm staying out of certain aspects of the conversation.

End the day my issues are with society and the people driving it I'm happy and surprised that I've gotten such a good response on here in general if only it was that simple in general!

Question now is how to protect kids of the future, without the right supports at home you run the risk of some fairly negative stuff hitting your kids.

Also what to teach them ourselves as father, I want to teach them respect without treating them like they have done something wrong, also want to make sure that I am engaged enough with them to do this and start changing the perception of what a dad should be. Rather than being the "me man, me no do child rearing".

Big concern I have is what is being taught to them in schools ect, particularly with a fairly famous antimale feminist being an education tsar.

irishrebe

Calhoun wrote: »

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

I've been open enough to what everyone's had to say and there experience s and views on everything. I'm not insecure in myself or worried about my masculinity that's not the issue. I'm just not into the direction society is going in with how it mainly views men and yes women also.

To be totally honest I've seen how things went when I got into debate or even simple conversation on subjects like this in After Hours in the past so I'm just not going down that road again so I'm staying out of certain aspects of the conversation.

End the day my issues are with society and the people driving it I'm happy and surprised that I've gotten such a good response on here in general if only it was that simple in general!

Question now is how to protect kids of the future, without the right supports at home you run the risk of some fairly negative stuff hitting your kids.

Also what to teach them ourselves as father, I want to teach them respect without treating them like they have done something wrong, also want to make sure that I am engaged enough with them to do this and start changing the perception of what a dad should be.  Rather than being the "me man, me no do child rearing".

Big concern I have is what is being taught to them in schools ect, particularly with a fairly famous antimale feminist being an education tsar.

What specifically is the negative stuff hitting your kids? Why would you be treating them like they've done something wrong?

Calhoun

irishrebe wrote: »

And neither can you see anyone else's. Of course it's easier for everyone to see the ways in which they are disadvantaged, because it's their personal experience, but your posts are chock full of assumptions and statements about things you clearly have little to no knowledge of (e.g. sexism in tech, stability of tech jobs, etc.).  It's one thing to debate with someone who has the information and disagrees with your point of view, but pointless to do so when one party is making baseless assumptions. It would be interesting to read some personal accounts from men regarding how being male has resulted in disadvantage. Specific things that have happened, rather than vague whataboutery regarding 'fashion being too girly'. Of course, it may be too personal to share, but I for one would find it very interesting to see that point of view.

We are talking in general here it's best to do that otherwise you play into the whole victim Olympics piece, it's like whoever had the worst sob story gets the most credibility but that's not how things work.

I am definitely open to other sides of the conversation but this is the gentlemen's club and we are discussing things from that point of view. I don't need feminism rammed down my throat here particularly when it's so bloody toxic.

bloodless_coup

18 year old chap beaten to death in Louth yesterday.

If you compare it to the recent murders of females:

There won't be the same outrage in the media

There won't be calls to change society "which creates an environment which allows the murder take place"

There won't be a statement from the Taoiseach condemning the murder

There won't be calls for mandatory classes to teach our youth that males aren't there to be just murdered.

#menslivesdontmatter

irishrebe

doylefe wrote: »

18 year old chap beaten to death in Louth yesterday.

If you compare it to the recent murders of females:

There won't be the same outrage in the media

There won't be calls to change society "which creates an environment which allows the murder take place"

There won't be a statement from the Taoiseach condemning the murder

There won't be calls for mandatory classes to teach our youth that males aren't there to be just murdered.

#menslivesdontmatter

Was he beaten to death by a woman who was looking to prey on lone random men? Was his death part of a pattern of similar recent deaths reflecting a pattern violence and murder by women towards men?

Zulu

irishrebe wrote: »

Was he beaten to death by a woman who was looking to prey on lone random men?

Does that matter? He was beaten to death. It's a disgrace. But perhaps you dont really care because no woman was involved? Or perhaps because he was just a man.

irishrebe

Calhoun wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

And neither can you see anyone else's. Of course it's easier for everyone to see the ways in which they are disadvantaged, because it's their personal experience, but your posts are chock full of assumptions and statements about things you clearly have little to no knowledge of (e.g. sexism in tech, stability of tech jobs, etc.).  It's one thing to debate with someone who has the information and disagrees with your point of view, but pointless to do so when one party is making baseless assumptions. It would be interesting to read some personal accounts from men regarding how being male has resulted in disadvantage. Specific things that have happened, rather than vague whataboutery regarding 'fashion being too girly'. Of course, it may be too personal to share, but I for one would find it very interesting to see that point of view.

We are talking in general here it's best to do that otherwise you play into the whole victim Olympics piece, it's like whoever had the worst sob story gets the most credibility but that's not how things work.

I am definitely open to other sides of the conversation but this is the gentlemen's club and we are discussing things from that point of view. I don't need feminism rammed down my throat here particularly when it's so bloody toxic.

But how can you talk 'in general' and have any kind of meaningful discussion? You can't. Otherwise it's just whataboutery and vague statements of how men are losing their masculinity. I've yet to see a single example of exactly how you think your children are being indoctrinated at school and how boys are being brought up to believe they're baddies. Not even an anecdotal story. Of course, if it's just a thread for venting, then grand, but if nobody is willing to be specific regarding the issue they have of 'where society is going', then how can there be a discussion?

Franz Von Peppercorn

irishrebe wrote: »

But how can you talk 'in general' and have any kind of meaningful discussion? You can't. Otherwise it's just whataboutery and vague statements of how men are losing their masculinity. I've yet to see a single example of exactly how you think your children are being indoctrinated at school and how boys are being brought up to believe they're baddies. Not even an anecdotal story. Of course, if it's just a thread for venting, then grand, but if nobody is willing to be specific regarding the issue they have of 'where society is going', then how can there be a discussion?

Pretty sure someone mentioned being lectured about “toxic masculinity”.

Calhoun

Zulu wrote: »

Does that matter? He was beaten to death. It's a disgrace. But perhaps you dont really care because no woman was involved? Or perhaps because he was just a man.

You know it matters because he doesn't have his victim card fully stamped out and he is also white, you know what they say about white males.

irishrebe

Zulu wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

Was he beaten to death by a woman who was looking to prey on lone random men?

Does that matter? He was beaten to death. It's a disgrace. But perhaps you dont really care because no woman was involved? Or perhaps because he was just a man.

Of course it's a disgrace. But if you're asking why it isn't given the same level of attention and outrage as two different women being kidnapped, sexually assaulted and murdered by men within days of each other, well, if it's not already obvious, I don't know how to get through to you. People of both sexes die after being beaten up and it rarely ever becomes a huge story. Knew of a woman from around my way who was killed in a fight between scumbags and I don't remember it even being on the news. If it turned out this poor man was randomly kidnapped, sexually assaulted and murdered and the media doesn't report on it, feel free to come back and tell me I was wrong.

irishrebe

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

But how can you talk 'in general' and have any kind of meaningful discussion? You can't. Otherwise it's just whataboutery and vague statements of how men are losing their masculinity. I've yet to see a single example of exactly how you think your children are being indoctrinated at school and how boys are being brought up to believe they're baddies. Not even an anecdotal story. Of course, if it's just a thread for venting, then grand, but if nobody is willing to be specific regarding the issue they have of 'where society is going', then how can there be a discussion?

Pretty sure someone mentioned being lectured about “toxic masculinity”.

Which they apparently interpreted as meaning "masculinity" in general, as opposed to toxic behaviour by a small subset of men. That would be like a Muslim being offended because a lecturer mentioned radical Muslims. Why would they be offended if it didn't apply to them?

Franz Von Peppercorn

irishrebe wrote: »

Which they apparently interpreted as meaning "masculinity" in general, as opposed to toxic behaviour by a small subset of men. That would be like a Muslim being offended because a lecturer mentioned radical Muslims. Why would they be offended if it didn't apply to them?

I wonder though would you do sanguine about courses about toxic femininity.

Calhoun

irishrebe wrote: »

But how can you talk 'in general' and have any kind of meaningful discussion? You can't. Otherwise it's just whataboutery and vague statements of how men are losing their masculinity. I've yet to see a single example of exactly how you think your children are being indoctrinated at school and how boys are being brought up to believe they're baddies. Not even an anecdotal story. Of course, if it's just a thread for venting, then grand, but if nobody is willing to be specific regarding the issue they have of 'where society is going', then how can there be a discussion?

This thread was made to discuss things from a general societal perspective, how men are portrayed in the media at the moment to the likes of the trend for male suicide ect.

When you focus on who is a bigger victim its like saying well i had x, y and z happen to me so my opinion matters more than yours.

irishrebe

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

Which they apparently interpreted as meaning "masculinity" in general, as opposed to toxic behaviour by a small subset of men. That would be like a Muslim being offended because a lecturer mentioned radical Muslims. Why would they be offended if it didn't apply to them?

I wonder though would you do sanguine about courses about toxic femininity.

We had an entire course when I was at college which basically consisted of analysing and pulling apart a toxic female character in a Spanish play. We had to write an essay about how deceitful and manipulative she was. I don't remember a single female student complaining about this 'reading' of the character or taking it as some sort of personal insult. 

I still think it's impossible to comment on what this supposed 'indoctrination' of male students can bring about if we don't even know any specifics. I have nieces and nephews in primary school and cousins in secondary and not one of my family members has expressed concern over what they're being taught. I have a six-year-old nephew who is rather flamboyant, for want of a better word. He's encouraged to wear what he wants (usually something sparkly or pink) and to do the activities he enjoys, which are ballet, painting nails and drawing. His teachers are happy for him to play with dolls rather than cars, and gravitate towards the girls rather than the boys during playtime at school. I know one of his school reading books has a gay couple in it. Is this the sort of thing the OP is concerned about? That he's not pushed to be more 'masculine' as he would have been in the past?

NinetyTwoTeam

professore wrote: »

Speak for yourself about making women work hard for equal treatment. I didn't and I bet the OP didn't either.

Why don't you make a similar case against black criminals in the US? Or Muslim terrorism? Or Jews controlling the media and banking sectors? Can't you see how sexist you are?

obviously i meant men on the whole throughout history not me you and every man alive today.

then you go from being pedantic to whataboutery. I'll stay on topic myself.

NinetyTwoTeam

Debtocracy wrote: »

I think we need more whining, oppressed men for balance.

there are plenty of them. OP for starters. the 'forced monogamy' supporters, MGTOW, men's rights groups, the 'incels'.

i just want to know would any of the supporters of the OP be happy to magically change genders overnight if it was possible? like without considering any preference you may have for women as sexual partners etc. or just not wanting to deal with menstruation, would any of you men, based on how society is set up, rather be a woman at the moment? or even in 10 years?

you would in me hole. being a man means you are many times safer from sexual assault, are usually paid more, have less stigma around you if you want to sleep around, less stigma if you remain single and/or childless, aren't expected to remove all your body hair.

John Lennon was right in his song about where women rank in the world. And even that man, who wrote such enlightened lyrics, was abusive to his first wife and all but abandoned his first son.

Wibbs

irishrebe wrote: »

But where exactly is this mentality? Yes, there are consequences now for being like an @sshole, sexually harassing women and so on, just as there always should have been.

Name one tenet of feminism that doesn't blame men/the patriarchy for women and wider society's ills. Find one that even suggests that women have any responsibility for their actions or how society ended up. Name one where women are not painted as the victims, in most cases agentless victims of said men/the patriarchy. Feminism is extremely skewed against men/the patriarchy. To suggest it isn't is to deny the undeniable.

irishrebe wrote: »

Which they apparently interpreted as meaning "masculinity" in general, as opposed to toxic behaviour by a small subset of men. That would be like a Muslim being offended because a lecturer mentioned radical Muslims. Why would they be offended if it didn't apply to them?

And yet Muslims are rightfully being offended, even targeted by a large section of western society and a chunk of the media thinking and conflating Muslim = radical/terrorist. You're being more than a tad disingenuous if you say this isn't the case.

NinetyTwoTeam wrote: »

obviously i meant men on the whole throughout history not me you and every man alive today.

Again you need to brush up on your history as you earlier suggested others should. "Throughout history" most people lived short lives of drudgery, disease and danger unused to the luxuries - or what we would call the basics - we take for granted. The common man was seen as expendable muscle or spear power, the common woman seen as baby maker to push out more spear throwers or baby makers. For the most part women(and children) were resources* and men defenders of same. Women were expected to suffer through and often died from pregnancy and birth of multiple children**, men were expected to suffer and often die in the defence of them and wider resources. Neither had much say in their lives or roles. For much of history a tiny number of people men and women controlled, exploited and profited from the majority.

There seems to be this notion that "in the past" men were doing great thanks very much and women were downtrodden victims under their thumb. It was only with the rise of western liberal democracies that people, men and women felt the tide that rose pretty much all boats and so it continues.




* we even see this in our modern human genetics. More female lines have survived down to today than male. Far more men never reproduced and their lines died out.

**records of medieval churches show one of the most common prayer offerings was for the health and safety of pregnant and birthing women, followed by entreaties to gods for victory or safe return or a "heroes death" for men.

irishrebe

Would you rather be a woman, Wibbs? If you could change gender overnight, would you? Do you think that would make your life easier and safer? Serious question.

Wibbs

NinetyTwoTeam wrote: »

there are plenty of them. OP for starters. the 'forced monogamy' supporters, MGTOW, men's rights groups, the 'incels'.

Do feminists not whine? You seem oddly deaf in one direction. That you lump in men's rights groups with the other muppets and propeller heads says much. So groups of men trying to fight for more access to their own children through the courts are the same as incels to you? OK...

i just want to know would any of the supporters of the OP be happy to magically change genders overnight if it was possible? like without considering any preference you may have for women as sexual partners etc. or just not wanting to deal with menstruation, would any of you men, based on how society is set up, rather be a woman at the moment? or even in 10 years?

In western societies? I would. If reincarnation was a thing and it was a coin toss for which gender I'd end up being I certainly wouldn't be too concerned. Both have their pros and cons.

you would in me hole. being a man means you are many times safer from sexual assault, are usually paid more, have less stigma around you if you want to sleep around, less stigma if you remain single and/or childless, aren't expected to remove all your body hair.

You're safer, though "many times" is debatable, certainly as a child. On physical assault and murder being a man is far more dangerous. The stigma with sleeping around I'd agree. Depending on age the stigma on single hood and lack of kids varies. The body hair example is one helluva odd one.

And you still haven't debated the point that as an Irish man you are statistically more likely to be less educated, paid less before kids come along, die younger, be injured or killed at work, be an addict, homeless, have fewer social safety nets and support, less medical research aimed at you and three times more likely to take your own life. These are facts of today, not slogans, not history, not conjecture.

John Lennon was right in his song about where women rank in the world. And even that man, who wrote such enlightened lyrics, was abusive to his first wife and all but abandoned his first son.

Woman is the nigger of the world? Lennon while a true genius of songwriting was a thundering hypocrite(he also wrote with no trace of shame or irony Working Class Hero at around the same time and he was solidly middle class) and easily swayed by the cause de jour. That he compared women to the horrendous and systemic oppression of Black Americans was beyond ill thought out and frankly insulting(and he had to eat crow and apologise for it). That you think he's right 40 years on is... well I dunno what it is TBH.

Wibbs

irishrebe wrote: »

Would you rather be a woman, Wibbs? If you could change gender overnight, would you? Do you think that would make your life easier and safer? Serious question.

See above. I'd see women having more pros in some senses and more cons in others. Men the same. If I wanted to reflect the stats of living longer, being better educated, with more societal support, less chance of early death from a multitude of sources, including my own hand, choice to either go full on career or part time mother and wife I'd pick being a woman. For pregnancy, birth, a more contracted reproductive time, if I wanted to climb the corporate ladder to the very top, if I didn't want more societal and peer pressure(the latter more from other women) in some areas like attractiveness and the agism attached to it I wouldn't.

One eyed Jack

irishrebe wrote: »

And neither can you see anyone else's. Of course it's easier for everyone to see the ways in which they are disadvantaged, because it's their personal experience, but your posts are chock full of assumptions and statements about things you clearly have little to no knowledge of (e.g. sexism in tech, stability of tech jobs, etc.).  It's one thing to debate with someone who has the information and disagrees with your point of view, but pointless to do so when one party is making baseless assumptions. It would be interesting to read some personal accounts from men regarding how being male has resulted in disadvantage. Specific things that have happened, rather than vague whataboutery regarding 'fashion being too girly'. Of course, it may be too personal to share, but I for one would find it very interesting to see that point of view.

I gotta say fair play for sticking up for yourself and defending your point of view, but just on the bit I've highlighted, you have to admit that much of your own arguments are based upon your own personal experience and are lacking in any sort of objectivity? That's fine, we both understand why that is, because as you said yourself it's easier for everyone to point to ways in which they are disadvantaged.

What I don't get is why you chose to focus on the actions of a small minority of men who you were unfortunate enough to have experience of, and you let that sway your decision not to go into tech, ignoring what you pointed out yourself was the vast majority of men in your experience who were very supportive.

If you're going to suggest that other people are making baseless assumptions, I have to wonder how you came to the conclusion that the tech services industry is actually more well paid than any other industry for starters? It isn't. There are only a small minority of roles in the tech industry where you can actually make a decent living at it, code monkeys for example really aren't on great money, the vast majority of them aren't anyway, and that's generally who we think of when we think of people working in tech. You aren't on decent money until you get to the upper echelons of the tech industry where you're having to compete all the time and you can be yesterdays news pretty damn quick. So you make a choice between lower paid stability, or higher paid instability where shìt moves really, really fast.

That's not to say that there aren't brilliant women leaders in the tech industry, there are, but the reason there aren't that many is because women generally don't want to take those kinds of risks to get to that level. They prefer the lower paid stability. The lack of women in the C-suite has nothing to do with sexism or any of the rest of it. It has to do with the fact that women are making personal choices for themselves, and they don't want to try to participate at that level. Some do, and they get there, because they aren't put off by the lower level crap they have to put up with in order to get to the level they want. It was ultimately your choice to let the crap you experienced at the lower level put you off doing what you really wanted to do when you were younger, and all I can hope for is now that you're older and more confident, you wouldn't let the crap you'll undoubtedly experience at lower level put you off again. Men experience the same crap btw, just it doesn't put them off as much as it appears to put women off.

iptba

On the question of whether one would want to be a man or woman, it is worth noting that people have experience of and practice being your existing sex already. Just like if somebody asked me if I'd like to be Irish or from some other distant country, I'd have a bias towards preferring to being Irish because that's what I know. Or I like having heterosexual sex as a man because I'm now a man.

irishrebe

One eyed Jack wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

And neither can you see anyone else's. Of course it's easier for everyone to see the ways in which they are disadvantaged, because it's their personal experience, but your posts are chock full of assumptions and statements about things you clearly have little to no knowledge of (e.g. sexism in tech, stability of tech jobs, etc.).  It's one thing to debate with someone who has the information and disagrees with your point of view, but pointless to do so when one party is making baseless assumptions. It would be interesting to read some personal accounts from men regarding how being male has resulted in disadvantage. Specific things that have happened, rather than vague whataboutery regarding 'fashion being too girly'. Of course, it may be too personal to share, but I for one would find it very interesting to see that point of view.

I gotta say fair play for sticking up for yourself and defending your point of view, but just on the bit I've highlighted, you have to admit that much of your own arguments are based upon your own personal experience and are lacking in any sort of objectivity? That's fine, we both understand why that is, because as you said yourself it's easier for everyone to point to ways in which they are disadvantaged.

What I don't get is why you chose to focus on the actions of a small minority of men who you were unfortunate enough to have experience of, and you let that sway your decision not to go into tech, ignoring what you pointed out yourself was the vast majority of men in your experience who were very supportive.

If you're going to suggest that other people are making baseless assumptions, I have to wonder how you came to the conclusion that the tech services industry is actually more well paid than any other industry for starters? It isn't. There are only a small minority of roles in the tech industry where you can actually make a decent living at it, code monkeys for example really aren't on great money, the vast majority of them aren't anyway, and that's generally who we think of when we think of people working in tech. You aren't on decent money until you get to the upper echelons of the tech industry where you're having to compete all the time and you can be yesterdays news pretty damn quick. So you make a choice between lower paid stability, or higher paid instability where shìt moves really, really fast.

That's not to say that there aren't brilliant women leaders in the tech industry, there are, but the reason there aren't that many is because women generally don't want to take those kinds of risks to get to that level. They prefer the lower paid stability. The lack of women in the C-suite has nothing to do with sexism or any of the rest of it. It has to do with the fact that women are making personal choices for themselves, and they don't want to try to participate at that level. Some do, and they get there, because they aren't put off by the lower level crap they have to put up with in order to get to the level they want. It was ultimately your choice to let the crap you experienced at the lower level put you off doing what you really wanted to do when you were younger, and all I can hope for is now that you're older and more confident, you wouldn't let the crap you'll undoubtedly experience at lower level put you off again. Men experience the same crap btw, just it doesn't put them off as much as it appears to put women off.

But at least I'm explaining my experiences and giving specific examples. Most people aren't even doing that. Just vague assertions 'everyone is out to get men these days' with no real explanation as to why. 

I'm trying to be as PC as possible here. I wouldn't say the men who have patronised me in my life are a 'small minority', no. Even in this day and age, fifteen years on from when I started college, I have men making sh1tty comments about how women can't code. Sure, I answer them back with something sharp tongued, but why should I have to? My teacher on my coding course recommended I use a male name instead of my own when asking for advice on online forums. In 2018. 

I imagine you and I have rather different ideas of what 'good money' is. What other careers would you say are better paid than tech or finance at entry level and mid level, then? Other than perhaps medicine, which I wouldn't want to do. I'm not talking about making millions, I'm talking about having an in-demand skillset which means you won't be out of work, unless you are really pretty bad at it, and a reasonable expectation of making above average money. Have you ever been a translator? If not, then the concept of 'low paid' AND 'unstable' might be alien to you. Same with when I taught English as a foreign language. No stability, rubbish pay, little to no chance of progression or payrises. That gets really tiring after a while, even if you don't mind the job itself.

Men experience the 'same crap'? No, they bloody well don't. My best friend is a programmer and not once in his life did anyone ever tell him he'd have a hard time in the industry because he's a man. Not once did a teacher ever tell him he'd be better off going for something else, because there's awful sexism against men in the industry. Not once did anyone imply he wasn't smart enough to do the job. He had nothing but encouragement from everyone around him. So please pull the other one. Men are not purposely dissuaded from going into tech.

irishrebe

iptba wrote: »

On the question of whether one would want to be a man or woman, it is worth noting that people have experience of and practice being your existing sex already. Just like if somebody asked me if I'd like to be Irish or from some other distant country, I'd have a bias towards preferring to being Irish because that's what I know. Or I like having heterosexual sex as a man because I'm now a man.

I'd rather be a man. To the extent I used to dress like a boy when I was younger (and fooled plenty of people), and I've seriously thought about having a sex change at various points in my life. But that's a whole other thread.

Calhoun

irishrebe wrote: »

I'd rather be a man. To the extent I used to dress like a boy when I was younger (and fooled plenty of people), and I've seriously thought about having a sex change at various points in my life. But that's a whole other thread.

Well not really, there must be a reason this discussion sticks at you so much and why your trying to make this thread about you.

Its like one of those situations, of an outsider looking in on a group and wanting to be apart of it but then listening to existing members complaining about it. On one level because they want to be part of that group they dont want to see the negative associated with it.

Drumpot

I respect the patience some of you folk are showing... I feel the answer to the riddle is Insular with a sprinkle of confirmation bias ..

irishrebe

Calhoun wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

I'd rather be a man. To the extent I used to dress like a boy when I was younger (and fooled plenty of people), and I've seriously thought about having a sex change at various points in my life. But that's a whole other thread.

Well not really, there must be a reason this discussion sticks at you so much and why your trying to make this thread about you.

Its like one of those situations, of an outsider looking in on a group and wanting to be apart of it but then listening to existing members complaining about it. On one level because they want to be part of that group they dont want to see the negative associated with it.

I'm not making it about me. I'm saying I would genuinely love to hear some actual real-life examples of how men are being emasculated instead of endless whataboutery, but I can see that's not going to happen.

Icemancometh

NinetyTwoTeam wrote: »

there are plenty of them. OP for starters. the 'forced monogamy' supporters, MGTOW, men's rights groups, the 'incels'.

i just want to know would any of the supporters of the OP be happy to magically change genders overnight if it was possible? like without considering any preference you may have for women as sexual partners etc. or just not wanting to deal with menstruation, would any of you men, based on how society is set up, rather be a woman at the moment? or even in 10 years?

you would in me hole. being a man means you are many times safer from sexual assault, are usually paid more, have less stigma around you if you want to sleep around, less stigma if you remain single and/or childless, aren't expected to remove all your body hair.

John Lennon was right in his song about where women rank in the world. And even that man, who wrote such enlightened lyrics, was abusive to his first wife and all but abandoned his first son.

I'm not a supporter of the OP, but I'll trade depilation for living longer, less likely to be a victim of crime, if convicted of a crime, likely to be treated far better, likely to be better educated, far less likely to die as a result of a violent death, and far less likely to die as a result of suicide. As Wibbs said, there's pros and cons to both, and it's a coin toss as far as I'm concerned. But you appear to be looking at only one side of the scale.

Calhoun

irishrebe wrote: »

I'm not making it about me. I'm saying I would genuinely love to hear some actual real-life examples of how men are being emasculated instead of endless whataboutery, but I can see that's not going to happen.

Oh but you are, since you started posting you have delved deeper and deeper into your own personal circumstance. No one has asked you to but you can be damned sure its the stick to beat us with to show us that your opinion is better than all the men on this thread.

Why would any man want to share anything when its going to be a dick measuring contest on victimhood?

Is that how discrimination works from a societal perspective? that it has to be happening every day directly? no such things as institutional or societal bias?

irishrebe

Calhoun wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

I'm not making it about me. I'm saying I would genuinely love to hear some actual real-life examples of how men are being emasculated instead of endless whataboutery, but I can see that's not going to happen.

Oh but you are, since you started posting you have delved deeper and deeper into your own personal circumstance.  No one has asked you to but you can be damned sure its the stick to beat us with to show us that your opinion is better than all the men on this thread.

Why would any man want to share anything when its going to be a dick measuring contest on victimhood?

Is that how discrimination works from a societal perspective? that it has to be happening every day directly? no such things as institutional or societal bias?

How can you possibly expect to have a discussion without explaining what the bloody situation is? In the whole entire thread, I don't think there's a SINGLE example of how exactly men are losing their masculinity. I shared a story about my nephew, who is being encouraged to play with dolls, etc. in an attempt to identify with you and figure out if this is the sort of thing you're objecting to, but since you ignored it, since you'd prefer to insult me and accuse me of making it about myself, I'm out. 

Other posters have answered with some interesting replies, but you would prefer to whine and act like a victim while accusing others of doing the same. You clearly aren't interested in hearing the perspective of women, or giving examples of actual ways men are disadvantaged now, you just want an echo chamber and/or a place to whine about how hard done by you are. I can see that other women and men who disagree with the thread title have long stopped posting. Well, enjoy it your echo chamber.

Calhoun

irishrebe wrote: »

How can you possibly expect to have a discussion without explaining what the bloody situation is? In the whole entire thread, I don't think there's a SINGLE example of how exactly men are losing their masculinity. I shared a story about my nephew, who is being encouraged to play with dolls, etc. in an attempt to identify with you and figure out if this is the sort of thing you're objecting to, but since you ignored it, since you'd prefer to insult me and accuse me of making it about myself, I'm out. 

Other posters have answered with some interesting replies, but you would prefer to whine and act like a victim while accusing others of doing the same. You clearly aren't interested in hearing the perspective of women, or giving examples of actual ways men are disadvantaged now, you just want an echo chamber and/or a place to whine about how hard done by you are. I can see that other women and men who disagree with the thread title have long stopped posting. Well, enjoy it your echo chamber.

There are examples but you just don't want to see them, the example of your nephew is about how masculinity isn't being forced upon school children generally has a negative connotation about it.

Don't be mad because i want to argue about the topic at hand and not have a pissing contest with you on victim hood. I don't necessarily think what you have gone through is ok, its quite horrible but if we only talk about that how do we talk about mens issues in general?

irishrebe

Calhoun wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

How can you possibly expect to have a discussion without explaining what the bloody situation is? In the whole entire thread, I don't think there's a SINGLE example of how exactly men are losing their masculinity. I shared a story about my nephew, who is being encouraged to play with dolls, etc. in an attempt to identify with you and figure out if this is the sort of thing you're objecting to, but since you ignored it, since you'd prefer to insult me and accuse me of making it about myself, I'm out. 

Other posters have answered with some interesting replies, but you would prefer to whine and act like a victim while accusing others of doing the same. You clearly aren't interested in hearing the perspective of women, or giving examples of actual ways men are disadvantaged now, you just want an echo chamber and/or a place to whine about how hard done by you are. I can see that other women and men who disagree with the thread title have long stopped posting. Well, enjoy it your echo chamber.

There are examples but you just don't want to see them, the example of your nephew is about how masculinity isn't being forced upon school children generally has a negative connotation about it.

Don't be mad because i want to argue about the topic at hand and not have a pissing contest with you on victim hood. I don't necessarily think what you have gone through is ok, its quite horrible but if we only talk about that how do we talk about mens issues in general?

More excuses. I asked if that sort of 'new fangled' teaching (which is very different to the way things were when we were younger) was what you were referring to when you said you felt boys were being encouraged to be less 'masculine', no more and no less. Because I genuinely have no idea what you are referring to. I really can't be bothered wasting my time with you any longer. Carry on whining, and enjoy.

Calhoun

irishrebe wrote: »

More excuses. I asked if that sort of 'new fangled' teaching (which is very different to the way things were when we were younger) was what you were referring to when you said you felt boys were being encouraged to be less 'masculine', no more and no less. Because I genuinely have no idea what you are referring to. I really can't be bothered wasting my time with you any longer. Carry on whining, and enjoy.

I never said boys were encouraged to be less "masculine", i said i was concerned that we were letting a well known anti-male feminist access to our school children.

I will indeed, carry on inserting yourself into threads across boards and making them about you. I am sure it will work out well for you.

irishrebe

Calhoun wrote: »

irishrebe wrote: »

More excuses. I asked if that sort of 'new fangled' teaching (which is very different to the way things were when we were younger) was what you were referring to when you said you felt boys were being encouraged to be less 'masculine', no more and no less. Because I genuinely have no idea what you are referring to. I really can't be bothered wasting my time with you any longer. Carry on whining, and enjoy.

I never said boys were encouraged to be less "masculine", i said i was concerned that we were letting a well known anti-male feminist access to our school children.

I will indeed, carry on inserting yourself into threads across boards and making them about you. I am sure it will work out well for you.

And for crying it out loud, just HOW is this 'well known feminist' accessing school children? Can you hear yourself?  You sound like a paranoid Daily Mail reader, scared of the bogeyman. Is she hiding in cupboards, just waiting to corrupt your innocent darlings? I literally shared a personal story about my nephew, whose school syllabus and teacher's approach may well have been influenced by this very person, asking if what I was talking about was what you were concerned about. You know, trying to actually identify some real, tangible thing you might be concerned about. But all you can think is that I'm 'inserting myself into threads'. You've got what you wanted, you've bullied everyone with a different viewpoint away from the thread, so well done. You've demonstrated over and over again that you're not interested in discussion or empathy or understanding or progress, you just want to whine and feel hard done by. Work away.