Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121196754#Comment_121196754

Hard to see any chance of it opening past Claremorris. Otherwise it would have been included in the draft AIRR.

Any draft is subject to small changes of course but if they start putting in lines they have just ruled it then it suggests a chaotic approach and a lack of competence. Any lobbying or regional pressure groups would have had their say prior to the initial draft so not sure what factors could lead to a change.

timmyntc

There is no way claremorris to collooney will ever reopen. It is dead. And rightly so.

Maybe in 100 years time someone will decide to lay a line from Ballina to Collooney or something to appease those looking for a "western rail corridor", but the old route will never ever reopen.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121197836#Comment_121197836

Eh, there's a reason why that wasn't the original routing. Ballina to Sligo has the Ox Mountains in the way.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121196754#Comment_121196754

The fact that the AIRR didn't include it despite including all sorts of mad shıt (e.g. Portadown to Mullingar) tells you all you need to know about the viability of Claremorris - Collooney. Much of it was built to a low standard and is riddled with Level Crossings. The Sligo section of it will become a Greenway, that's already decided.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121198635#Comment_121198635

The coast is flat with suitable gradient. The reason it wasnt the original routing is because original rail line was oriented to connect every hamlet and village

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121199098#Comment_121199098

And the distance and cost of a spur from Manulla to Ballina was a lot less than a spur from Collooney or Ballisodare to Ballina would have been

notJoeJoe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121199079#Comment_121199079

So what's the point of a second consultation then?

Also Portadown to Mullingar wasn't such a strange idea. It was recommended mainly for rail freight, and while I can't say I see passenger traffic as the main draw for the line, it would provide rail-less counties with a line that is mostly still intact. If you think the AIRR had some mad suggestions, then how could you then believe them when it comes to Claremorris-Collooney? The problems the line has aren't that severe and could easily be overcome. There's absolutely no reason it shouldn't have been in the report.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121207775#Comment_121207775

I don't know what's the point of a second consultation. I don't know the point of the report at all, it is a complete waste of time and money imo. If Claremorris - Collooney was added, they should have just said that the rail network in 1850 is the ambition for a 21st century rail network.

I doubt the point of a second consultation is to add back things which have been rejected, despite no change in the circumstances which saw them rejected. Minor adjustments to drafts are standard, adding Claremorris - Collooney would be a major change and doing so without a very strong case would make a mockery of the report (more so than already is the case).

And again, it has already been decided and accepted that the Sligo section will become a Greenway so an entirely new route will be needed.

Westernview

Sinn Fein getting in it's bit of early electioneering. Promising to progress the line to Sligo and also the Navan line. As far as I can see the only mention of rail investment in their document so a bit strange to say the least.

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2023/10/09/sinn-fein-commit-to-western-rail-corridor-in-alternative-budget/

Overall 'alternative' budget plan here.

https://vote.sinnfein.ie/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Sinn-Fein-Alternative-Budget2024.pdf

Geuze

Jesus Wept, I have my head in my hands here.

I am a huge supporter of transit, and trains, and the WRC.

But going on an on about completely unviable projects is wasting everybody's time.

I don't claim to be an expert, but surely the projects that will help the people of Mayo, Sligo, Roscommon, Galway, Clare are the doubling of Portarlinton-Athlone and Galway-Athenry.

Surely those projects would increase capacity, speed, flexibilty, and reduce journey times??

L1011

Those two promises are because of specific reps/campaigns. They've dug fully in on the WRC on councils; and they will shower Meath with promises to try unseat Toibin.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121215036#Comment_121215036

Not sure if you are having a go at Sinn Fein or at me for posting it or both. I only posted it as an updated news item as this is the WRC thread after all.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121215042#Comment_121215042

It does looks like political stuff alright. With the extra seat in Mayo Sinn Fein are probably targeting 2 seats - Rose Conway Walsh and whoever else they can get in.

CrabRevolution

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213253#Comment_121213253

As you say, it's electioneering. There isn't a campaign in Ireland they won't lend their support to. There's loud voices for the WRC and for Navan so they mention those, but there's no actual vocal campaign for ML, or Dart+, or double tracking lines, or electrification etc. so they don't even get a mention.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121215120#Comment_121215120

SF, not you.

Thansk to L1011 for explanation, I suspected as much.

In news that will surprise, well, nobody, it turns out the velorail missed its year 1 target by a whopping 75%. They don't like this getting highlighted to them either

Hotblack Desiato

That sort of arrogance is very reminiscent of the Toy Show The Musical fiasco, and just like TSTM it's not their own money that they're risking...

Westernview

How anyone could have thought that the velorail would be a success is beyond me. An expensive to use, cumbersome, one off experience through relatively boring countryside.

The more I think about it the more I can only conclude it's some covert attempt by the Council to keep the rails on the line.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121222227#Comment_121222227

It's odd alright. On one hand I appreciate, almost applaud, the fact they were able to build something without 30years of failed planning, rounds and rounds of public consultation and too many reports to count.

Someone basically decided "fck the bloated broken system, let's just build it". You have to appreciate that on some level. It's just a pity it's Velorail... let's hope we're all wrong and someone's vision proves worthy!!

serfboard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121222227#Comment_121222227

It's always been my thinking about it that the main purpose of it is to block the greenway by keeping rails on the line. It was going to have 80,000 visitors a year by year five? What a joke!

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121224334#Comment_121224334

That's 220 visitors per day on every one of the 365 days in the year.

4 pax per unit, and they run them in convoys of 8. So 32 PAX per round-trip - less the 4 velorail workers who need to be there for the turnaround spot - which makes 28 paying pax.

They advertise being able to send groups out north and south from Kiltimagh so that's max 56 paying customers using at the same time.

It takes 1hr 15 minutes to complete, so factor in disembarking and boarding of 15 min, then that's a max of 5 round trips in a day - so 280.

So to handle 80,000 visitors they'd need to be operating from 9-5.30 every single day of the year, and running at 79% capacity every single day.

Really were some geniuses who put that business case together - and quite the indictment of the politicians and civil servants who didn't question the numbers before handing over the cash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121225102#Comment_121225102

Its hardly surprising given the support from WOT. They have similar issues with math

L1011

The WOT "rebuttal" of the most recent report involved some exceptionally magical maths.

blackwhite

Something tells me that numbers being grounded in reality have never been a concern for WOT, their political allies and their pet business projects

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121121514#Comment_121121514

"Mayo County Council’s Head of Tourism Anna Connor could not say exactly how many people had visited the Velorail but said there had been ‘really good numbers’ using the facility."

It's like something that you'd hear out of Trump, I've seen the numbers. They're really good numbers. No one looked for or asked for this thing to be built. It's well on it's way to becoming an expensive flop.

Hotblack Desiato

So to handle 80,000 visitors they'd need to be operating from 9-5.30 every single day of the year, and running at 79% capacity every single day.

There's lots of airlines that would be thrilled to have that sort of load factor... ridiculous.

foxinIreland

Hi guys,

Does anyone taken the Station Operative test 2023 Irish Rail? Where are you studying for the interview? I did the test today and I think was nice. ;-)

Press release from the folks who want to make use of the line until the trains come

Press release From: The Western Rail Trail campaign: Greenway petition to be considered by Dail members on Thursday this week

15th October 2023 for immediate release: 480 words main body text.

· Greenway petition to be considered by Dail members

• Petition for Greenway on closed railway from Athenry in Galway to Collooney in Sligo will be discussed by Oireachtas Committee on Thursday October 19th
• Campaign welcomes recognition that 26,000 voters will finally be listened to by Dail members
• Outcome of Committee debate will be communicated to 26,000 voters.

The Western Rail Trail campaign; The campaign to utilise the route of the closed railway from Athenry to Sligo as a greenway until such time as a railway might be possible will present a petition with over 26,000 signatures to the Oireachtas Petitions Committee this week on October 19th.

Brendan Quinn spokesperson for the campaign said: We submitted the greenway petition signed by over 26,000 voters in July of this year. We have have been notified the petition will be discussed by the Joint Committee on Petitions on Thursday October 19th.

26,000 voters will be kept up to date on how the petition was received by the committee.

Of the 26,000 voters who have signed the petition the majority live in the West of Ireland said Quinn. 26,000 voters is a lot of people; We will issue a statement to all of those who have signed the petition explaining the outcome and advising the 26,000 voters who are nearly all based in the west of Ireland the reception our ideas received from the committee members.

It is a very opportune time for the Dail to consider this petition added Quinn. The government has now published intentions to potentially re-open the closed railway from Athenry to Claremorris in the strategic railway review. This is welcome news but there is no timeframe on when this might happen in the rail review, in fact the railway is unlikely to be re-opened for many years to come. The old rusting tracks are meaningless they will have to be ripped up and replaced and a lot of engineering work done on the line to restore the closed railway, so why not have a greenway now.

We have long argued that until such time as the railway happens let’s use this route, to protect the alignment, which is in full public ownership as a greenway and when and if the railway is re-opened a parallel greenway could be built alongside it. The views of 26,000 voters as expressed in this petition are now with the Oireachtas.

Clarity about closed railway north of Claremorris in county Mayo

The Strategic Rail review has done one good thing said Quinn. It is now clear from the rail review that the closed railway north of Claremorris through Mayo and Sligo as far as Collooney is no longer planned to be a railway again at any time in the future.

Now is the time to fully protect this route in public ownership with the East Mayo Greenway from Claremorris to Charlestown in county Mayo and the Sligo Greenway from Charlestown to Collooney in County Sligo. There are no excuses left not to utilise this part of the route as Greenway now the strategic rail review has made it clear there are no plans to re-open this part of the railway.

The 26,000 voters who signed this petition are fed up hearing about railways that might or might not happen in the future and are waiting for this asset to be utilised properly now.

ENDS: body text 380 words Contacts: Brendan Quinn via messenger on FB please

The petition can be viewed here: https://chng.it/petitionforgreenwayonrailcorridorhits 26000

The petition is due to be considered on Thursday 19 October 2023 due to commence at 1:30pm in CR4 LH2000.

Committee Room 4.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/oireachtas-tv/cr4-live/

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121242547#Comment_121242547

I welcome that petition. It keeps the discussion active and puts a bit of pressure on the government to start coming up with timelines and priorities for their rail plans.

What that guy Quinn is saying seems reasonable. If the government come out and say we wont be doing the WRC for 20 years then fine stick a greenway on it until then, whereas if they want to start working on it sooner than that then it would probably be money wasted. The government will probably give a fudge answer of course.

Whatever about the part south of Claremorris I think there is almost unanimous agreement here that the velorail is a complete waste of taxpayers money. I'd happily see it replaced with a greenway for people to make proper use of for free. But of course if that happened it would confirm the velorail as the wasteful white elephant that it is and embarrass the politicians that backed it. I can only imagine the media circus that would follow it. So I can't see a greenway happening there no matter how logical it would be.

intellectual dosser

Teasing out the idea for the sake of discussion, what happens when it’s decided that it’s time for rail services to be Re-instated?

I’d be expecting QMG / Western Rail Trail to say something along the lines of ‘this is our greenway now, build us a new one first or build your railway somewhere else’

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244807#Comment_121244807

Looking at Google Earth, looks like a typical cross section of the disused line is 25-30m wide. This is more than enough for a single rail line and a Greenway, plus enough space to upgrade to double track if that was ever deemed necessary.

No idea how realistic that assumption is though.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244807#Comment_121244807

Fair point. I don't know if Irish Rail/The State owns the route or whether it just has the right of way to have a rail line through private land. Either way it would seem necessary to be able to maintain those rights if a greenway was to use the route for a set period of time.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244974#Comment_121244974

That's wider than I would have thought. Seems you're right.

intellectual dosser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244974#Comment_121244974

I gather bridges and crossings would be the bigger challenges here. Is it worth investing in these things for a temporary greenway or would additional spend be needed in anticipation of a future railway in parallel?

Similarly, this greenway would terminate in Athenry. As things stand it won’t be connected to the Dublin - Galway greenway which is expected to route through Loughrea. Should further investment be made to make this connection. These investments start to add up for such a ‘temporary’ measure.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121244807#Comment_121244807

Exact same situation as all other greenways using rail lines

Where the lines are in IE ownership, the line is leased for use as a greenway. Conditions are built into the lease stating the line can be used as a greenway until IE decide to reactivate it at which point the greenway is removed from the line.

Now what would likely happen is a new greenway would be built alongside as it would have built up market share, employment, visitor numbers, economic benefit etc so the business case would already be proven

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245344#Comment_121245344

If connectivity was a condition, no greenway would ever be built.

Connectivity can always be added at a later date and indeed, having a greenway in place would provide further justification for additional connectivity and investment

intellectual dosser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121245698#Comment_121245698

I agree it’s not a condition, but it must surely be a consideration particularly if funding is to be invested in a temporary solution. A temporary greenway spur?

On your initial response, does Western Rail Trail have a proposal for the greenway option? For example, do they have a proposal that includes whether they’d have a bridge over the N63 or simply a safe crossing?

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121246243#Comment_121246243

I couldn't see them building any new bridges for greenways due to the cost. The only bridges and underpasses for greenways I've seen have been where road improvements are already taking place but there may be cases I'm not aware of.

Usually cyclists just have to dismount at roads and walk across but for wider roads or dual carriageways the greenway probably has to terminate due to safety issues.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121246243#Comment_121246243

Its at feasibility study stage

https://www.tuamherald.ie/2021/09/29/feasibility-study-on-quiet-man-greenway-gets-underway/

Note, this is the Athenry to Tuam section only afaik.

The case for the greenway was raised in the Dail today. The Taoiseach agrees that both (greenway and rail) are possible on the line and will raise it with ER

https://twitter.com/ciarancannon/status/1714294623009636620

Westernview

Sounds positive all round. When he said the greenway and rail are 'not mutually exclusive' its not fully clear if he meant greenway first to be replaced in time by rail or greenway and then both side by side. Hopefully the latter.

serfboard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121251762#Comment_121251762

Including the phrasing "we know how long these things take" would indicate to me that it would be greenway first. A greenway would come out of separate funding than a railway, which would have to compete with all other rail projects and would be de-prioritised in relation to almost any other rail project. A greenway would be cheaper and quicker to build. It could be made even cheaper again by adopting an Athlone-Mullingar solution where the existing rails are not removed.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121254731#Comment_121254731

It would definitely be greenway first. I probably wasn't clear in what I said - What I meant was would it end up as rail eventually (after replacing the greenway) or would the 2 exist side by side.

serfboard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121255298#Comment_121255298

I don't know for sure but going off the precedent of once people have something it's difficult/impossible to take it back off them, I would imagine that every effort would be made to keep the Greenway in place once we get around to putting in the railway, which I can't imagine would happen until the middle of the next decade - despite what Sinn Fein would have people believe. As was pointed out in another thread, the AIRR still envisages single track between Athlone and Athenry until at least 2040.

Of course north of Claremorris it's a no-brainer. The rail lines will be removed because there will be no railway going in on the existing alignment ever.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121255561#Comment_121255561

Once the greenway goes in, the business case for retaining it would be rock solid. However, that does not mean it would prevent the return of rail, it would just mean the greenway gets shoved off the the side when new rails get laid.

kirk.

I've heard that said more than once by officials

They've no objection to the other knowing it'll probably never happen once they get their preferred Greenway or Rail option

intellectual dosser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121255742#Comment_121255742

First of all thanks for the info and links from Monday - at face value I don’t see an issue with a greenway in the interim but that doubt of ‘once it’s there there will be a lobby to leave it there and find somewhere else for a railway’ still holds.

If I said something like “Once the railway line is reinstated the business case for retaining it would be rock solid” I’d imagine you’d have at least a mild objection to it. Is part of the solution here defining success criteria? If a greenway were to be put in place what are the success markers required for it being retained, kept alongside or removed altogether when the time comes for rail to come back?

Hotblack Desiato

A greenway doesn't have large ongoing running and maintenance costs.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121257780#Comment_121257780

As I said a greenway on a IE line operates on a conditional lease.

Moving it to the side when the line needs to be relaid would not be a big deal for anyone.

I've walked and cycled beside operational lines all my life, not a big deal

As for defining success, usage numbers and local employment gains (services like cafes, restaurants, accommodation etc) would be 2 prime indicators. We've seen these gains at many greenways around the country already

As for objections to the greenway being moved, I wouldn't have one and I doubt many would. The greenway would still be ther3, just moved a few feet

intellectual dosser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121258052#Comment_121258052

From my point of view, and I’d imagine others in favour of rail, Brendan Quinn and Ciaran Cannon are not just Pro-Greenway, their rhetoric in recent years has been highly Anti-Rail. In a post on the QMG Facebook page Cannon said there shouldn’t be a red cent spent on rail on the route over the next 50 years (I’ve tried finding this post again, has he deleted it?)

So, it while it seems logical that there would be no issue, and I obviously recognise Cannon was in the Dail this week advocating for both, the doubt is still there.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121258308#Comment_121258308

I'm pretty sure the position has always been to make use of it ASAP as a greenway until rail is being implemented then move over.

Nobody cares if it becomes a rail line and a greenway, everyone cares about it being left idle for another few decades when there's immediate gains sitting there to be taken

Westernview

Regardless of the motives of Cannon and Quinn it seems there are 2 options if both the greenway and rail are to be ultimately accommodated,

1 - Locate greenway along the existing rails and move to the side once the rail construction commences. Cheaper and quicker as a short term measure as the ground along the actual lines is probably more consistent and level than that further to the sides. I presume the old rails could be left in place for the greenway?

2 - Position greenway in its eventual intended location parallel to the rails, thus leaving the original line available for development and seeming to avoid any conflicts down the line. But it would probably involve more cost upfront and would be difficult to engineer and futureproof from further changes without the rail design having been completed. May end up getting changed again anyway at the time of the rail construction in the event of gradient adjustments, alignment changes and requirements for working room etc.

As I mentioned the other day it would be very difficult to choose the best approach without having some ballpark idea of when the rail work would commence. I don't think any timeframe has been given for completing the schedule of priorities following the AIRR so I don't think the government will commit even to the greenway until some decisions are made on that.