Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

eastwest

serfboard wrote: »

eastwest wrote: »

I see from today's Sunday independent that mayo county council's wot-inspired greenway-blocking project in Kiltimagh has fallen foul of the planners.

The article is here.

Sunday Independent wrote:

The setback for the project comes just weeks after the developers announced an additional Leader grant of €198,000 to cover the costs of the carriages, a website and signage. This follows two grants of €180,000 and €118,000 approved by Mr Ring.

There's where half a million of our money is going, folks.

Sunday Independent wrote:

The project ran overbudget by €147,000 because of unforeseen problems, such as subsidence to the railway line.

The minister approved the €118,000 grant to contribute towards the over-run, reportedly despite warnings from his civil servants that doing so could cause "problematic precedents".

If you follow the documents from An Bord Pleanala through, you will come across this wonderful gem:

An Bord Pleanalas Inspectors Report Addendum wrote:

I would also note reference, in the submitted copy of the application for departmental funding by the Kiltimagh IRD, to proposed laybys, pull-in areas and a small food vending area for refreshments along the route, which are not referred to in development description.

It is not clear what is meant by pull-in areas, but it would seem unlikely that this would be provided through anything as substantial as an extension of track (such as sidings), which would be an expensive, intrusive and significant undertaking and would be excessive for such light vehicles.

It would seem impractical for the proposed facility to operate without pull-in areas to enable opposing velo carts to pass or velo carts to overtake one another without pull-in areas at frequent intervals, but not impossible depending on how the facility is operated (such as travelling in organised convoys).

This is comical stuff, but unfortunately the pathetic joke is on us, and the half a million that's already been spent/promised on this project.

This project appears to have had genuine beginnings, but was adopted by the rail lobby as a way of blocking any kind of greenway development on the old line. It also had the advantage of being a project that could be spun to look like the railway was being rebuilt through Kiltimagh.
As a tourism project though, it was always a dead duck.

what_traffic

FrontPage on the Galway Freesheet Newspaper: Galway Advertiser

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/107418/economists-comments-show-only-way-is-the-greenway-says-councillor

(ignore the photo - does not have any context to the article)

Sam Russell

what_traffic wrote: »

FrontPage on the Galway Freesheet Newspaper: Galway Advertiser

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/107418/economists-comments-show-only-way-is-the-greenway-says-councillor

(ignore the photo - does not have any context to the article)

Unfortunately, the economist is Colm McCarthy - well known for being anti-rail.

what_traffic

Sam Russell wrote: »

Unfortunately, the economist is Colm McCarthy - well known for being anti-rail.

True - his stance on the DART was pure daft - WOT......
Anyhow point been is that Greenway is making front page in the local papers with local elections in 3 weeks time.

marno21

Sam Russell wrote: »

Unfortunately, the economist is Colm McCarthy - well known for being anti-rail.

Many economists are anti-rail, however when it comes to the Western Rail Corridor it would be difficult to find an economist who would be in favour of the project.

Sam Russell

marno21 wrote: »

Many economists are anti-rail, however when it comes to the Western Rail Corridor it would be difficult to find an economist who would be in favour of the project.

Yes, but our Colm is a specialist.

Del.Monte

Just leaving this here: https://www.con-telegraph.ie/news/roundup/articles/2019/05/01/4173397-increased-rail-services-between-dublin-port-and-ballina/

westtip

serfboard wrote: »

The article is here.

There's where half a million of our money is going, folks.

If you follow the documents from An Bord Pleanala through, you will come across this wonderful gem:
Quote:
[HTML]Originally Posted by An Bord Pleanala's Inspector's Report Addendum
I would also note reference, in the submitted copy of the application for departmental funding by the Kiltimagh IRD, to proposed laybys, pull-in areas and a small food vending area for refreshments along the route, which are not referred to in development description.

It is not clear what is meant by pull-in areas, but it would seem unlikely that this would be provided through anything as substantial as an extension of track (such as sidings), which would be an expensive, intrusive and significant undertaking and would be excessive for such light vehicles.

It would seem impractical for the proposed facility to operate without pull-in areas to enable opposing velo carts to pass or velo carts to overtake one another without pull-in areas at frequent intervals, but not impossible depending on how the facility is operated (such as travelling in organised convoys).[/HTML]
This is comical stuff, but unfortunately the pathetic joke is on us, and the half a million that's already been spent/promised on this project.

Surprisingly I have not yet gone through the inspectors report with a fine toothcomb, but the quote you have pulled out does not augur well for MCC, as ABP is already taking notes and a view on the detail of the case, as it points to operational problems that might occur, one of those might well be health and safety, I have just picked up this quote from second addendum report

The SAA report does nothing to show right of public to consultation or address health and safety or traffic or parking issues for an operation attracting up to 80,000 people per annum.

One of the key health and safety issues raised by the submission and observations is the need for an access track to run alongside the velorail, this will be expensive but possible based on the landback the closed line sits on, and will need to be a key part of the new planning process from MCC, if they don't include this as a prerequisite, which could of course double up as a greenway, then the plan is likely to go back to ABP, the fact ABP has raised the health and safety straw in the wind does not augur well for the velorail idea as it sits at the moment in the minds of MCC or Kiltimagh IRD.

Utter Consternation

Del.Monte wrote: »

Just leaving this here: https://www.con-telegraph.ie/news/roundup/articles/2019/05/01/4173397-increased-rail-services-between-dublin-port-and-ballina/

A whopping 30% increase to nine trains each way a week.

Hold the fcuking phone!!!:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Del.Monte

Utter Consternation wrote: »

A whopping 30% increase to nine trains each way a week.

Hold the fcuking phone!!!:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Just posted it to balance the posting of every trivial piece of pro-greenway guff linked to by other posters.

what_traffic

Del.Monte wrote: »

Just posted it to balance the posting of every trivial piece of pro-greenway guff linked to by other posters.

Whats IWT (International Warehousing and Transport (IWT))position on the Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail?

westtip

what_traffic wrote: »

Whats IWT (International Warehousing and Transport (IWT))position on the Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail?

My guess is they don't have a position, their trains go to Dublin and Waterford on the current infrastructure which serves them well for the 1.28 trains a day; in the main they are hauling concentrate from well known international soft drinks company based near Ballina, that concentrate gets shipped to franchise bottlers in the UK and Europe shipped out of either Waterford or Dublin, the soft drinks company has no interest in shipping from Foynes it would extend the shipping time to Europe and the UK.

I haven't seen the press release from IWT it seems this information came from the West on Track FB page. Exciting though isn't it, allegedly 1.28 trains a day, we had better build a new railway line to cope with the capacity!!!! give me strength please.

MayoForSam

westtip wrote: »

in the main they are hauling concentrate from well known international soft drinks company based near Ballina, that concentrate gets shipped to franchise bottlers in the UK and Europe shipped out of either Waterford or Dublin, the soft drinks company has no interest in shipping from Foynes it would extend the shipping time to Europe and the UK.

The IWT article also mentions "additional new business has been added from the medical, retail and brewing industries in the area" - I am involved with the primary medical device manufacturer in the Ballina area and we have absolutely no plans to utilize rail transport as it would not meet our supply chain needs. As for the brewing industry, there are a few local micro-breweries and distilleries set up recently but I very much doubt if they would fill a train container with their limited production volumes. Not sure if many 'retailers' would have any use for rail transport either.

Utter Consternation

MayoForSam wrote: »

The IWT article also mentions "additional new business has been added from the medical, retail and brewing industries in the area" - I am involved with the primary medical device manufacturer in the Ballina area and we have absolutely no plans to utilize rail transport as it would not meet our supply chain needs. As for the brewing industry, there are a few local micro-breweries and distilleries set up recently but I very much doubt if they would fill a train container with their limited production volumes. Not sure if many 'retailers' would have any use for rail transport either.

One would surmise that the only reason the line between Manulla and Ballina is kept open is because of the freight. If it went the line would probably be closed down overnight.

serfboard

Sam Russell wrote: »

Yes, but our Colm is a specialist.

A specialist - a bit like Fr. McGreil is a specialist?

westtip

serfboard wrote: »

A specialist - a bit like Fr. McGreil is a specialist?

or 50% of the Experts on the so called "Expert Working group" that gave us the McCann report in 2005 that led to this debacle...... the EWG was made up of 50% members of West on Track!!!

Thank goodness for EY DKN.....

westtip

MayoForSam wrote: »

The IWT article .

The IWT article is a direct lift from the West on Track Facebook page, the IWT webpage doesn't even mention this news, one would have thought if the company bashed out a press release it would be on their website, its not?

jasper100

westtip wrote: »

The IWT article is a direct lift from the West on Track Facebook page, the IWT webpage doesn't even mention this news, one would have thought if the company bashed out a press release it would be on their website, its not?

The article came from a uk freight industry article multimodal.org.uk.

It is good news to see an increase in container freight and perhap iwt will in time expand to other railheads around the country.

Its more good news on top of the increase announced in passenger numbers on the wrc recently.

westtip

jasper100 wrote: »

The article came from a uk freight industry article multimodal.org.uk.

It is good news to see an increase in container freight and perhap iwt will in time expand to other railheads around the country.

Its more good news on top of the increase announced in passenger numbers on the wrc recently.

My point was there is no mention of it on the IWT website, couldn't understand why? yes I understand on the rail passenger there are a lot of people using Galway/Oranmore park and ride on the Dublin Galway line, that are now counted as Western Rail Corridor passengers; difficult to make up this stuff isn't it. I note the latest figures don't give a breakout of Ennis/Athenry, they will make the more interesting reading, any idea what they are?

Del.Monte

serfboard wrote: »

A specialist - a bit like Fr. McGreil is a specialist?

At least Fr.McGreil has a genuine interest in something unlike the detached economist Colm McCarthy who only interest, apart from hearing his own voice/or and reading his own drivel, is getting paid for same.

westtip

Del.Monte wrote: »

At least Fr.McGreil has a genuine interest in something unlike the detached economist Colm McCarthy who only interest, apart from hearing his own voice/or and reading his own drivel, is getting paid for same.

he does too. A genuine interest in stopping tourism.

Del.Monte

westtip wrote: »

he does too. A genuine interest in stopping tourism.

In fairness, Fr.McGreil has been campaigning for the reopening of the Claremorris/Collooney line for even longer than you've been doing the reverse.

serfboard

Del.Monte wrote: »

At least Fr.McGreil has a genuine interest in something

Yes indeed. A genuine interest in getting the government to spend hundreds of millions of euro indulging his genuine interest in trains.

what_traffic

Del.Monte wrote: »

At least Fr.McGreil has a genuine interest in something unlike the detached economist Colm McCarthy who only interest, apart from hearing his own voice/or and reading his own drivel, is getting paid for same.

Whats the line ....."play the ball not the man"?

westtip

Del.Monte wrote: »

In fairness, Fr.McGreil has been campaigning for the reopening of the Claremorris/Collooney line for even longer than you've been doing the reverse.

Your point being?

Del.Monte

westtip wrote: »

Your point being?

Is there any point to anything in this discussion?

Utter Consternation

Del.Monte wrote: »

Is there any point to anything in this discussion?

Sounds like you're having an existentialist crisis there, Monte.

westtip

Del.Monte wrote: »

Is there any point to anything in this discussion?

My point is this is not a matter of who has been campaigning longest who wins the argument, it is he or she who has the best argument and reasoning. In Sligo reason has won out, in galway it is close to winning out, in Mayo the county council will eventually be bought in kicking and screaming with reasoned argument. In claremorris there is no hope.

serfboard

westtip wrote: »

In Sligo reason has won out, in galway it is close to winning out, in Mayo the county council will eventually be bought in kicking and screaming with reasoned argument. In claremorris there is no hope.

Once Bellahy->Collooney and Milltown->Athenry get Greenwayed (which they will) Mayo can tilt at windmills for as long as they like, for there will be nowhere for a train to go and no point in them campaigning.

Grandeeod

Del.Monte wrote: »

Is there any point to anything in this discussion?

There is a point. We need to organize a Western Rail Corridor/Boards Beers so we can all skull pints and talk about it face to face. Sean's pub in Castlrea may be closed, but we can hire it out for the face off of the century inside a loco. I'm sure he'll get the kegs in for us.:D I think it would be great craic altogether!

Corca Baiscinn

serfboard wrote: »

Once Bellahy->Collooney and Milltown->Athenry get Greenwayed (which they will) Mayo can tilt at windmills for as long as they like, for there will be nowhere for a train to go and no point in them campaigning.

And will we have windmill-powered zipwires to get greenway users and their bikes through the County Mayo from Bellaghy to the Galway border?:D

Muckyboots

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

And will we have windmill-powered zipwires to get greenway users and their bikes through the County Mayo from Bellaghy to the Galway border?:D

Bellaghy to Ballindine Sleepers and Dust- a rusty rails tourist attraction for the tens of fanatics.

westtip

Muckyboots wrote: »

Bellaghy to Ballindine Sleepers and Dust- a rusty rails tourist attraction for the tens of fanatics.

With planning permission for nothing.:D

Muckyboots

westtip wrote: »

With planning permission for nothing.:D

In truth, if one needed planning permission to "do nothing" with land and assets- we wouldn't be here talking muck every second day.

JCX BXC

A lift to platform 2 would do no harm in Ennis, today we've had to leave the station, driver had to get out, walk to the other end of the train, get back in and then go back to the station to get the passenger who required assistance.

Isambard

I don't know how much lifts (x2) cost, but it would be a lot.

Why not just have a level pedestrian crossing to allow passengers to cross the line, it's not as if there will be any express trains come along.

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

Why not just have a level pedestrian crossing to allow passengers to cross the line, it's not as if there will be any express trains come along.

I think that the crossing would have to have gates, or the people crossing would have to wear hi-vis jackets.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think that the crossing would have to have gates, or the people crossing would have to wear hi-vis jackets.

I would imagine that two sets of remotely lockable gates would be far cheaper than 2 lifts.
You could of course install a coat rail for the hi-vis jackets each side for the passengers to pick up and drop off the other side.

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

I would imagine that two sets of remotely lockable gates would be far cheaper than 2 lifts.
You could of course install a coat rail for the hi-vis jackets each side for the passengers to pick up and drop off the other side.

Plus a rack of umbrellas because it rains a lot in the wesht.

westtip

Sam Russell wrote: »

Plus a rack of umbrellas because it rains a lot in the wesht.

And inflatable dingys for the flooded section of track

Isambard

Deleted User wrote: »

Why not just have a level pedestrian crossing to allow passengers to cross the line, it's not as if there will be any express trains come along.

will you stop! you and your common sense!

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why not just have a level pedestrian crossing to allow passengers to cross the line, it's not as if there will be any express trains come along.

Can wheelchairs cross?

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Can wheelchairs cross?

Yes, that's how it used to be done in the past, if you couldn't go over the bridge, you walked over the level crossing.
Look at any old photos of railway stations, you'll see the pedestrian crossing at the end of the platform.
Like this one for example.

westtip

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, that's how it used to be done in the past, if you couldn't go over the bridge, you walked over the level crossing.
Look at any old photos of railway stations, you'll see the pedestrian crossing at the end of the platform.
Like this one for example.

You forgot about the nanny state, no one could possibly do this now, there would be too many cases of I got hit by a train I didn't know was coming and I am suffering from severe mortality.

Muckyboots

westtip wrote: »

You forgot about the nanny state, no one could possibly do this now, there would be too many cases of I got hit by a train I didn't know was coming and I am suffering from severe mortality.

Someone forgot all that pedestrian safety stuff when they approved the Luas layout in Dublin. People walking and cycling back and over in front of those poor drivers every day of the week. But sure those hipsters in de Capital have different rules for everything.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes, that's how it used to be done in the past, if you couldn't go over the bridge, you walked over the level crossing.
Look at any old photos of railway stations, you'll see the pedestrian crossing at the end of the platform.
Like this one for example.

I guessed that's what you meant. Yeah, those are brutal for wheelchairs, with front wheels getting stuck in the gaps.

Del.Monte

Deleted User wrote: »

I guessed that's what you meant. Yeah, those are brutal for wheelchairs, with front wheels getting stuck in the gaps.

AFAIK that type of crossing was known as a 'barrow crossing' from a time when railways provided a useful purpose - passengers weren't meant to use them.

Utter Consternation

Del.Monte wrote: »

AFAIK that type of crossing was known as a 'barrow crossing' from a time when railways provided a useful purpose - passengers weren't meant to use them.

Yeah, they're known as barrow crossings. Lethal at the best of times, even more so if trains were crossing at the station.

Isambard

Deleted User wrote: »

I guessed that's what you meant. Yeah, those are brutal for wheelchairs, with front wheels getting stuck in the gaps.

how could the wheels get stuck if they were crossing the line at right angles?