Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

Lord Glentoran

Muckyboots wrote: »

Someone forgot all that pedestrian safety stuff when they approved the Luas layout in Dublin. People walking and cycling back and over in front of those poor drivers every day of the week. But sure those hipsters in de Capital have different rules for everything.

Yeah, like a maximum 70 km/h speed limit on Luas. Nice try lads.

Muckyboots

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Yeah, like a maximum 70 km/h speed limit on Luas. Nice try lads.

These pedestrian crossings are in stations where trains are stopped.
Anyway, from Claremorris to Tuam, there wouldn't be a train passing 50km/h. Sixteen level crossings and all the ones that were once farm gates are now surrounded by new bungalows and kids. Planning/housing has checkmated the WRC, ironically.

Del.Monte

Del.Monte wrote: »

AFAIK that type of crossing was known as a 'barrow crossing' from a time when railways provided a useful purpose - passengers weren't meant to use them.

Yeah the porters mainly used them, and so did anyone who was unable to climb the steps to the overbridge.

Utter Consternation

Utter Consternation wrote: »

Yeah, they're known as barrow crossings. Lethal at the best of times, even more so if trains were crossing at the station.

Nothing that a simple automatic gate wouldn't resolve.

jasper100

Deleted User wrote: »

I guessed that's what you meant. Yeah, those are brutal for wheelchairs, with front wheels getting stuck in the gaps.

How so? Would the gap be any wider than the gap between a train and a platform?

Am I right in saying you need to book a ramp for wheelchair access onto the train, in which case whoever is providing the ramp would also be able to assist getting the passenger across the track?

Isambard

the only gaps are for the wheel flanges to pass...less than an inch wide

Utter Consternation

Deleted User wrote: »

Nothing that a simple automatic gate wouldn't resolve.

And interlock it with the signalling system?

westtip

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah the porters mainly used them, and so did anyone who was unable to climb the steps to the overbridge.

Indeed I had forgotten about the number of jobs the WRC will bring to the west, I forgot to include the porters we will have to bring back needed in Ballyglunin, Tuam, Milltown, etc. Plus bringing back the station masters that will be needed.....At least another 20 jobs for CIE from Athenry to Collooney!

Will all the stations have watering stations for the pony and trap?

Sam Russell

Genuine question.

If the railway was re-established between Athenry and Colooney, how many trains per day would be likely, and how long would it take to go end to end? How does that compare to the existing bus services? I would assume that most passengers would be going to/from Galway.

How many passengers would each train carry? Would there be enough to fill a bus or coach? (About 70 passengers fills a typical coach that plies the motorways or a double-decker bus).

The line is single track from Athenry to Galway, is there capacity for a service to fit in with a service from Athenry to Colooney? Would the Colooney service continue to Galway or to Ennis and Limerick? Are there any proposals in existence from the proposers?

If there is not a regular suitable service at times passengers require, (at reasonable fares), then there will be few passengers. IR have a tendency to make unwanted services (by IR) to have services unwanted by passengers because of poor timetables.

Utter Consternation

Sam Russell wrote: »

Genuine question.

If the railway was re-established between Athenry and Colooney, how many trains per day would be likely, and how long would it take to go end to end? How does that compare to the existing bus services? I would assume that most passengers would be going to/from Galway.

How many passengers would each train carry? Would there be enough to fill a bus or coach? (About 70 passengers fills a typical coach that plies the motorways or a double-decker bus).

The line is single track from Athenry to Galway, is there capacity for a service to fit in with a service from Athenry to Colooney? Would the Colooney service continue to Galway or to Ennis and Limerick? Are there any proposals in existence from the proposers?

If there is not a regular suitable service at times passengers require, (at reasonable fares), then there will be few passengers. IR have a tendency to make unwanted services (by IR) to have services unwanted by passengers because of poor timetables.

What would the line speed on this section be also?

Del.Monte

Sam Russell wrote: »

Genuine question.

If the railway was re-established between Athenry and Colooney, how many trains per day would be likely, and how long would it take to go end to end? How does that compare to the existing bus services? I would assume that most passengers would be going to/from Galway.

How many passengers would each train carry? Would there be enough to fill a bus or coach? (About 70 passengers fills a typical coach that plies the motorways or a double-decker bus).

The line is single track from Athenry to Galway, is there capacity for a service to fit in with a service from Athenry to Colooney? Would the Colooney service continue to Galway or to Ennis and Limerick? Are there any proposals in existence from the proposers?

If there is not a regular suitable service at times passengers require, (at reasonable fares), then there will be few passengers. IR have a tendency to make unwanted services (by IR) to have services unwanted by passengers because of poor timetables.

Claremorris/Collooney is only an enthusiast's dream at this stage and it is the link line from Athenry to Claremorris which is important. A whole range of possible journeys would be opened up for locals and tourists. That the line was allowed to get into its present state is a monument to CIE/Government incompetence. Perhaps a small fraction of the €3 billion that is to go into the National Broadband scheme could be diverted to reopening the route - a far better way of wasting/spending the money - and the State would own the end result.

Del.Monte

Del.Monte wrote: »

Claremorris/Collooney is only an enthusiast's dream at this stage and it is the link line from Athenry to Claremorris which is important. A whole range of possible journeys would be opened up for locals and tourists. That the line was allowed to get into its present state is a monument to CIE/Government incompetence. Perhaps a small fraction of the €3 billion that is to go into the National Broadband scheme could be diverted to reopening the route - a far better way of wasting/spending the money - and the State would own the end result.

Cutting back on 21st century infrastructure to reopen abandoned 19th century infrastructure.
Who would lose out in this scenario?
It would be a brave county council candidate who would propose reopening the railway rather than rural broadband.
Separately I saw someone proposing to ask canvassers a neutral question about the disused railway rather than a leading question - I didn't have a chance to use it yet.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

Genuine question.

If the railway was re-established between Athenry and Colooney, how many trains per day would be likely, and how long would it take to go end to end? How does that compare to the existing bus services? I would assume that most passengers would be going to/from Galway.

How many passengers would each train carry? Would there be enough to fill a bus or coach? (About 70 passengers fills a typical coach that plies the motorways or a double-decker bus).

The line is single track from Athenry to Galway, is there capacity for a service to fit in with a service from Athenry to Colooney? Would the Colooney service continue to Galway or to Ennis and Limerick? Are there any proposals in existence from the proposers?

If there is not a regular suitable service at times passengers require, (at reasonable fares), then there will be few passengers. IR have a tendency to make unwanted services (by IR) to have services unwanted by passengers because of poor timetables.

No genuine answers to genuine questions.

A low use railway would need to be staffed in some way. Either staff at each station/stop or be like a bus service where the driver fulfills all functions. Assisting where needed, ticketing, open the level crossing gates, making the announcements - you get the idea. So basically a bus service on iron wheels.

Now the permanent way would need signals and maintenance, so that would be quite costly. Trespass on railway property is a serious problem, particularly if the service is infrequent. How would that be tackled?

The current alignment is useless as it goes from one small town to an even smaller one. Trains only work if there is mass traffic.

We solved the mass transport in rural areas, as far as has been done, by using buses, not by trains. A dial a bus type service, like Rural Link, is the way to go.

Now, disused rail alignments are best turned into Greenways which is low(ish) cost, gives benefits to the local areas, encourages tourism that suits our climate, yet retains the alignment just in case the railway might be reinstated.

marno21

The alignment between Tuam and Athenry is actually quite a high standard. It's certainly a higher standard than other active railways in the country and is mainly bridged road crossings and is quite straight.

It's north of Tuam that the quality takes a nose dive and north of Claremorris it just becomes rubbish.

end of the road

Sam Russell wrote: »

No genuine answers to genuine questions.

because without any guaranteed plan to reopen the line, people aren't going to know the answers on here. perhapse putting these questions to irish rail themselves or the NTA might bare more fruit as even without a guaranteed plan for reopening, they may be better placed to answer.

Sam Russell wrote: »

A low use railway would need to be staffed in some way. Either staff at each station/stop or be like a bus service where the driver fulfills all functions. Assisting where needed, ticketing, open the level crossing gates, making the announcements - you get the idea. So basically a bus service on iron wheels.

any reopening plan would look to remove as far as is possible any level crossings. or if not removal, automation. either staff on trains or staff at stations, which ever would require less staff. not a problem.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Now the permanent way would need signals and maintenance, so that would be quite costly. Trespass on railway property is a serious problem, particularly if the service is infrequent. How would that be tackled?

the same way it is tackled across the rail network. i can't imagine permanent way would cost as much as road?

Sam Russell wrote: »

The current alignment is useless as it goes from one small town to an even smaller one. Trains only work if there is mass traffic.

whatever about all the way to mayo, the part to tuam i believe is quite well built. reversing at athenry isn't anything near the issue it is made out to be now days with modern railcars. years ago, when most trains were loco hauled, sure.

Sam Russell wrote: »

We solved the mass transport in rural areas, as far as has been done, by using buses, not by trains. A dial a bus type service, like Rural Link, is the way to go.

i'm not sure we really did solve it. in fact, we quite likely killed it in a number of areas.
a dial a bus service is a waste of time. nobody seems to want them. busses just add to road traffic. if people wanted a dial a bus they would be rampant across the country.

Sam Russell wrote: »

Now, disused rail alignments are best turned into Greenways which is low(ish) cost, gives benefits to the local areas, encourages tourism that suits our climate, yet retains the alignment just in case the railway might be reinstated.

in some areas, yes. as a whole, this is just not something that can be guaranteed. certain disused rail alinements should actually be reopened.

There are plans to have continuous bus corridors for the problem parts of Tuam to Galway. Once that's done, Tuam to Galway City center will be 30 mins by high frequency bus.

The rail line simply cannot ever compete with that, it just can't.

It's a dead duck, time to convert it to greenway

Del.Monte

Deleted User wrote: »

There are plans to have continuous bus corridors for the problem parts of Tuam to Galway. Once that's done, Tuam to Galway City center will be 30 mins by high frequency bus.

The rail line simply cannot ever compete with that, it just can't.

It's a dead duck, time to convert it to greenway

You keep deliberately missing the point that Athenry/Claremorris is part of a through route not just a potential commuter link from Tuam/Galway but that doesn't suit your agenda.

marno21

Del.Monte wrote: »

You keep deliberately missing the point that Athenry/Claremorris is part of a through route not just a potential commuter link from Tuam/Galway but that doesn't suit your agenda.

Yes, but the alignment between Tuam and Claremorris is shocking. Is there really going to be substantial demand for Westport/Castlebar - Galway via rail when the competing road journey is improving year by year?

Del.Monte

marno21 wrote: »

Yes, but the alignment between Tuam and Claremorris is shocking. Is there really going to be substantial demand for Westport/Castlebar - Galway via rail when the competing road journey is improving year by year?

Again, you're thinking purely local, why not Limerick/Ennis/Westport etc.....

I'm the first to appreciate the expense involved in putting a railway back in place - especially after it has been systematically run into the ground - but if anything, the existing limited WRC has proved that build it and they will come. CIE had to be dragged screaming before they even started up the limited Ennis/Limerick service back in 1984.

Limerick–Ennis recommenced on Thursdays from 4 August 1984 - two days a week from 12 April 1988, four days a week from 19 February 1993 and six days a week from 16 May 1994. WIKI

CIE never wanted the WRC back and that it has been as 'successful' as it has is a minor miracle given their deplorable attitude.

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

There are plans to have continuous bus corridors for the problem parts of Tuam to Galway. Once that's done, Tuam to Galway City center will be 30 mins by high frequency bus.

The rail line simply cannot ever compete with that, it just can't.

It's a dead duck, time to convert it to greenway

given it's not open then of course it can't compete with a bus corridor, which i suspect isn't going to do very much for galway's traffic issues in reality.
bus corridors as the solution for a city's traffic issues just isn't going to work long term. galway needs rail-based transport and tuam is a perfect opportunity to reintroduce a rail service as it has an existing rail line.
tuam most certainly isn't a dead duck and would actually not be a bad reopening. no reason why a rail service couldn't compete with a bus corridor.

Commuter services on the Tuam Road into Galway can and do serve big trip generators like Parkmore, GMIT, the city centre and NUIG and serve catchment areas not on the railway like Claregalway and towns further north of Tuam - I use them occasionally.
The rail line is very limited and only serves Tuam and the city centre.

marno21

Del.Monte wrote: »

Again, you're thinking purely local, why not Limerick/Ennis/Westport etc.....

I'm the first to appreciate the expense involved in putting a railway back in place - especially after it has been systematically run into the ground - but if anything, the existing limited WRC has proved that build it and they will come. CIE had to be dragged screaming before they even started up the limited Ennis/Limerick service back in 1984.

Limerick–Ennis recommenced on Thursdays from 4 August 1984 - two days a week from 12 April 1988, four days a week from 19 February 1993 and six days a week from 16 May 1994. WIKI

CIE never wanted the WRC back and that it has been as 'successful' as it has is a minor miracle given their deplorable attitude.

Del.Monte, I do appreciate where you are coming from, but realistically, future rail expansion in Ireland will be totally centered around commuter rail. Upgrading the N17 would be far more useful for that area than reopening the rail line. North of Tuam the alignment is totally uncompetitive with road.

Sam Russell

marno21 wrote: »

Del.Monte, I do appreciate where you are coming from, but realistically, future rail expansion in Ireland will be totally centered around commuter rail. Upgrading the N17 would be far more useful for that area than reopening the rail line. North of Tuam the alignment is totally uncompetitive with road.

Well, there might be some intercity work, like putting in dual tracking to help intercity flexibility.

Lord Glentoran

end of the road wrote: »

given it's not open then of course it can't compete with a bus corridor, which i suspect isn't going to do very much for galway's traffic issues in reality.
bus corridors as the solution for a city's traffic issues just isn't going to work long term. galway needs rail-based transport and tuam is a perfect opportunity to reintroduce a rail service as it has an existing rail line.
tuam most certainly isn't a dead duck and would actually not be a bad reopening. no reason why a rail service couldn't compete with a bus corridor.

The Americanism “center” is the telling word there. Galway is a test bed for American-style sprawl and having rail for Tuam-Galway commuting spoils that.

Poop poop!

Lord Glentoran

Del.Monte wrote: »

Again, you're thinking purely local, why not Limerick/Ennis/Westport etc.....

I'm the first to appreciate the expense involved in putting a railway back in place - especially after it has been systematically run into the ground - but if anything, the existing limited WRC has proved that build it and they will come. CIE had to be dragged screaming before they even started up the limited Ennis/Limerick service back in 1984.

Limerick–Ennis recommenced on Thursdays from 4 August 1984 - two days a week from 12 April 1988, four days a week from 19 February 1993 and six days a week from 16 May 1994. WIKI

CIE never wanted the WRC back and that it has been as 'successful' as it has is a minor miracle given their deplorable attitude.

Bang on the money as ever.

Muckyboots

Jayney Mac, the candidates in the Galway County Council elections are falling over themselves to declare their love for the greenway. Hardly a signalman's peep about trains at all. Changes afoot.

Lord Glentoran

Muckyboots wrote: »

Jayney Mac, the candidates in the Galway County Council elections are falling over themselves to declare their love for the greenway. Hardly a signalman's peep about trains at all. Changes afoot.

There’s votes to be chased in maintaining one house to the acre sprawl, and mosherways to maintain that.

westtip

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

There’s votes to be chased in maintaining one house to the acre sprawl, and mosherways to maintain that.

And there are votes to be had in creating jobs in the tourism and services industries, which is exactly what the QMG will do.

whisky_galore

Muckyboots wrote: »

Jayney Mac, the candidates in the Galway County Council elections are falling over themselves to declare their love for the greenway. Hardly a signalman's peep about trains at all. Changes afoot.

Bread and circuses for the easily pleased.

Muckyboots

whisky_galore wrote: »

Bread and circuses for the easily pleased.

The new rubbery sandwiches and Knock Specials.

Lord Glentoran

westtip wrote: »

And there are votes to be had in creating jobs in the tourism and services industries, which is exactly what the QMG will do.

Just not the “wrong” sort of tourism, which is why the anti-rail lobby are targeting Kiltimagh.

serfboard

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Just not the “wrong” sort of tourism, which is why the anti-rail lobby are targeting Kiltimagh.

So you support spending half a million of the public's finances on the velo-rail simply because it involves rails?

Come on. It's a scandalous waste of money.

Lord Glentoran

serfboard wrote: »

So you support spending half a million of the public's finances on the velo-rail simply because it involves rails?

Come on. It's a scandalous waste of money.

Velorail works elsewhere but not in Ireland is the logic of your position. I am reminded of the one track thinking exhibited at a meeting I was at in my old town in Kildare where one public representative was aghast at spending money on a children’s playground for the town, on the basis that “sure the GAA is there”. Zero sum mentality.

Sam Russell

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Velorail works elsewhere but not in Ireland is the logic of your position. I am reminded of the one track thinking exhibited at a meeting I was at in my old town in Kildare where one public representative was aghast at spending money on a children’s playground for the town, on the basis that “sure the GAA is there”. Zero sum mentality.

The velorail will be operating on a one track railway. How do the velo bikes pass each other?

The velo bikes would work just as well with rubber wheels on a greenway, but not just as well, but significantly better. Why do they need to be on rails?

marno21

Sam Russell wrote: »

The velorail will be operating on a one track railway. How do the velo bikes pass each other?

The velo bikes would work just as well with rubber wheels on a greenway, but not just as well, but significantly better. Why do they need to be on rails?

Because the greenway requires the removal of the rails and the end of the dream of rail services to Knock Airport.

L1011

Supporting the ludicrous velo-rail as a tourism initiative over a Greenway is effectively deciding to artificially limit the number of tourists for the sake of keeping a set of effectively unusable rails on the ground - rails that would be removed before any reopening anyway.

Emotion has long since overridden sense here.

Sam Russell

marno21 wrote: »

Because the greenway requires the removal of the rails and the end of the dream of rail services to Knock Airport.

But that does not answer the question raised. Why not rubber wheel based Velo bikes?

If there is a sufficient demand for a rail service to Knock Airport, the rails can be reinstated. Remember, there is currently no rail service to Dublin Airport, Shannon Airport, or Cork Airport, all of which have far more passengers and aircraft movements than Knock Airport.

Dublin Airport, with passenger numbers of over 3 million, plus staff numbers, is expected to get a rail connection in 2027. Shannon is expected to get one -- well, it's not expected to get one. As for Cork, ..... well, they are looking for a motorway to Limerick and are not looking for a rail connection currently.

serfboard

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Velorail works elsewhere but not in Ireland is the logic of your position.

It certainly is not.

But aside from misrepresenting my position, I see that you still haven't answered the question as to whether you support the velorail, and the spending of half a million of public money on it.

XPS_Zero

blanch152 wrote: »

There shouldn't be commuters travelling to work over long distances. No more rural housing, just build up the cities of Galway, Limerick, Cork and Waterford as well as some of the larger towns as service centres.

Do you remember decentralization?


It started off as the following:
Stop (through planning laws) Dublin moving any further out, up only.


Do the same for Galway, Limerick, Cork.



Have a regional development strategy encouraging new everything to locate in one of those four cities, that way a new WRC or even the reactivated one might have some justification down the road.


BUT THEN....


People started whinging "what about Kerry" and "what about Sligo" and "what about Offally" and off we went, and for political not geospatial reasons it got watered down so it was no longer a regional development plan to rebalance the island and instead became a way to avoid losing votes, or buy votes, in every micky mouse town in Ireland with the public service decentralization spread so thin they eventually realized it wasn't worth fighting the PS Unions over relocation and just gave up.


We would need to tackle how our population is planned and our planning laws for housing and get rid of the Irish distrust of high rise BEFORE going anywhere near a WRC plan again. They'd literally need to be starting major construction in these areas ^ around the stations BEFORE you will get anyone authorizing the required money.


The reason they keep asking for new reports is political, kick the can down the road so don't actually spend the money but say you are in favor of it, the money instead gets spent in Dublin OR more likley on a pointless vote buying extra 10er on childrens allowance or pension or jobseekers.


They won't even finish the Dublin parts of T21 that are crying out to be done because of creaking population, they don't even have the guts to put a stimulus plan building things like metro during the recession included in the bailout, even now they wont' stand up to the NIMBY'ism even though they've the constitutional power to just take the damn land...if they are leaving the Swords corridor creaking demanding Metro, and leaving Green and Red line Luas commuters behind on platforms, why would they spend money on this:
(the line inspection video)

I've worked in emergency planning and the landscape here ^ looks like the kind of projections we had if a nuclear war had gotten going and the fallout was so big in the US it was able to cross the atlantic and large parts of Ireland had to be evacuated, that's how deserted it looks along there.




I'm not against a WRC, but I have the same attitude towards it I do to universal healthcare, you need major reform first, I'd not throw another 6b (full cost on top of what we pay now for an Irish NHS, perfectly doable if you are not attached to said 10ers every budget) at the HSE until it was radically reformed, same here with planning laws etc it would be a waste of money.

serfboard

XPS_Zero wrote: »

We would need to tackle how our population is planned and our planning laws for housing and get rid of the Irish distrust of high rise BEFORE going anywhere near a WRC plan again. They'd literally need to be starting major construction in these areas ^ around the stations BEFORE you will get anyone authorizing the required money.

Correct. Proper Planning first.

Galway County has a population of 260,000 of which 80,000 live in the city. The other 180,000 are scattered to the four winds from Clifden to Ballinasloe and from Gort to Tuam, and mostly in one-off rural housing of people who do not work on the land.

Until we develop critical mass in our towns and cities in the West of Ireland, rail, a volume form of public transport, which I enthusiastically support where it makes sense, will not be needed, and spending money on it would be a waste.

Lord Glentoran

serfboard wrote: »

It certainly is not.

But aside from misrepresenting my position, I see that you still haven't answered the question as to whether you support the velorail, and the spending of half a million of public money on it.

What is this, the Ayn Rand fan club in the Morket Bor? I’ll answer what I like, sonny.

Lord Glentoran

serfboard wrote: »

Correct. Proper Planning first.

Galway County has a population of 260,000 of which 80,000 live in the city. The other 180,000 are scattered to the four winds from Clifden to Ballinasloe and from Gort to Tuam, and mostly in one-off rural housing of people who do not work on the land.

Until we develop critical mass in our towns and cities in the West of Ireland, rail, a volume form of public transport, which I enthusiastically support where it makes sense, will not be needed, and spending money on it would be a waste.

Preventing it from happening again would be a waste, and a criminal one at that.

Lord Glentoran

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

What is this, the Ayn Rand fan club in the Morket Bor? I’ll answer what I like, sonny.

Actually there’s a good idea. A pi55-take on Dublin’s Ayn Randians called “Atlas Shagged”

serfboard

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

What is this, the Ayn Rand fan club in the Morket Bor?

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Actually there’s a good idea.

Good man, you keep praising yourself there :rolleyes:

what_traffic

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Actually there’s a good idea. A pi55-take on Dublin’s Ayn Randians called “Atlas Shagged”

Does it sound very lyrical in an East Belfast accent Lord Glentoran?

unit 1

If people wont take the new motorway from tuam to galway, what chance is there in them taking a train that follows roughly the same route as the motorway they wont take?

JCX BXC

unit 1 wrote: »

If people wont take the new motorway from tuam to galway, what chance is there in them taking a train that follows roughly the same route as the motorway they wont take?

They don't choose the route the train takes.

Lord Glentoran

serfboard wrote: »

Good man, you keep praising yourself there :rolleyes:

If self-praise is no praise, where does that leave self-abuse, seeing as you are clearly such a master debater?

Sam Russell

Mod:

@ Lord Glentoran and What Traffic:

Cut it out. Name calling is against the charter. Cards will be issued.

Hotblack Desiato

Sam Russell wrote: »

Dublin Airport, with passenger numbers of over 3 million,

A typo, it was over 31 million last year.

Shannon, Knock, Cork all suffer from the 'one for everyone in the audience' politics. They're all fighting each other over a catchment population barely enough to sustain one decent international airport.