Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

The public consultation is now open for the next 6 weeks

Express your opinion in the survey below

https://emea.focusvision.com/survey/selfserve/214c/190513

Del.Monte

Thank you - ticked all the right boxes. I need to travel Athenry/Claremorris and Claremorris/Collooney by service train as I have already done both by special but that's not the same is it! When is the Grand Re-Opening Day?

Isambard

Del.Monte wrote: »

Thank you - ticked all the right boxes. I need to travel Athenry/Claremorris and Claremorris/Collooney by service train as I have already done both by special but that's not the same is it! When is the Grand Re-Opening Day?

both doable, but a bit roundabout currently.

Surely you wouldn't want public money spent just so you could tick the lines off your list?

Muckyboots

Del.Monte wrote: »

Thank you - ticked all the right boxes. I need to travel Athenry/Claremorris and Claremorris/Collooney by service train as I have already done both by special but that's not the same is it! When is the Grand Re-Opening Day?

Hope you put lots of emphasis (maybe trumpian style capital letters) on the word "need" and gave plenty of context to your special needs.

westtip

Press release From: The Western Rail Trail campaign

June 7th 2019 for immediate release

• Headline passenger figures on Western Rail Corridor shown up as transparent.
• Passenger numbers on Ennis-Athenry section of new line still achieving little more than half of original business case target.
• Average passenger load per train on Ennis-Athenry section would barely fill a bus.
• Trains carrying 20% of capacity on average
• Public invited to comment on economic analysis of Western Rail Corridor.
• Rail review will need to consider failure of phase one of Rail Corridor.

In April 2019 Irish Rail released figures showing 387,408 journeys on the Western Rail Corridor in 2018. However figures obtained from Irish Rail under freedom of information by the Western Rail Trail Greenway campaign show that in fact only 137,784 of those passenger journeys were made on the new section of railway between Ennis Athenry which was opened in 2010 at a cost of €105 million.

The route from Ennis to Athenry reopened in 2010 was built to allow direct intercity journeys between Limerick and Galway. The business case used to convince the Government of the time to invest €105 million in the Western Rail Corridor was based on 250,000 journeys on the new route using Ennis-Athenry by end of year five. Eight years since the Ennis-Athenry line was opened it is still well short of original targets with only 137,784 journeys recorded in 2018. Subvention on the line is costing more than €3 million a year.

Brendan Quinn of the Western Rail Trail campaign said. “We were interested to see the real story behind the headline figure published by Irish Rail in April, so we submitted the FOI request. The headline passenger numbers from Irish Rail in April included those using the Athenry to Galway line which is part of the pre-existing Dublin Galway railway route, as well as numbers on the Ennis-Limerick commuter line. Passenger numbers are up on these two parts of the route which existed before the ‘Western Rail Corridor’ project was developed, in particular on the short section of the Dublin-Galway railway between Oranmore and Galway ; Oranmore station re-opened in 2013.

A total of 54,417 journeys in 2018 were made on the 7 minute journey into Galway city centre from Oranmore utilising the Dublin Galway line which is not part of the Western Rail Corridor. This growth is hardly attributable to the fact a railway between Ennis and Athenry was re-opened.

The figures for the intercity passenger demand between Limerick and Galway using the Ennis/Athenry route is still very low at 137,784 for the whole of 2018.

Quinn continued “To put this number in context based on the number of trains per annum using the new railway route from Ennis to Athenry, the average number of passengers per train travelling on the Ennis to Athenry line is 39 per trainload; a number that could easily be accommodated on one bus. Each train on the Ennis/Athenry line has a capacity to carry 192 passengers so the trains are operating at 20% of capacity”

Quinn added “An independent international consulting company EY DKN has been appointed to examine the economic and business case for an extension of the Western Rail Corridor, and just this week EY DKN have invited the public to make submissions on the rail review. EY DKN will discover during this consultation process that phase one of the Western Rail corridor from Ennis to Athenry has not achieved the target numbers it was built for and that there is now a huge demand for a greenway on the closed railway route. What is absolutely clear now is that based on the actual performance of Ennis Athenry any case for a railway north of Athenry will most likely be viewed with caution based on the failure of phase one of the Western Rail Corridor to deliver on the original business case.”

People can make their voices heard at this link:

Survey on rail review invites public to express their views on Western Rail Corridor extension

Western Rail Corridor Passenger figures: The real picture

Year Passengers using new railway from Ennis to Athenry - intercity passengers from Galway to Limerick and vice versa – “Western Rail Corridor” passengers % of original business case of 250,000 passengers per year by year 5 used to justify building the Ennis/Athenry
2010 43799
2011 34461
2012 34325
2013 28437
2014 51128 20%
2015 102486 41%
2016 100564 40%
2017 133835 54%
2018 137784 55%


Year No. of Passengers using Oranmore Galway commuter route part of the mainline from Dublin to Galway
2013 5,522
2014 11,624
2015 13,852
2016 19,887
2017 34,138
2018 54,417



ENDS: body text 566 words Contacts: contact via the sligo mayo greenway page on FB or PM on boards.

Carawaystick

westtip wrote: »

• Trains carrying 20% of capacity on average


Quinn continued “To put this number in context based on the number of trains per annum using the new railway route from Ennis to Athenry, the average number of passengers per train travelling on the Ennis to Athenry line is 39 per trainload; a number that could easily be accommodated on one bus. Each train on the Ennis/Athenry line has a capacity to carry 192 passengers so the trains are operating at 20% of capacity”

Whats the source for the 192 passengers per train number? As some trains are commuter services, the crush load would be way higher.

Isambard

Carawaystick wrote: »

Whats the source for the 192 passengers per train number? As some trains are commuter services, the crush load would be way higher.

well that reduces the 20% loading factor even further

Carawaystick

Isambard wrote: »

well that reduces the 20% loading factor even further

That's sort of my point

westtip

Carawaystick wrote: »

Whats the source for the 192 passengers per train number? As some trains are commuter services, the crush load would be way higher.

goingnowhere wrote: »

192

I asked the question on this forum and got the above answer

Muckyboots

https://twitter.com/RailEquality/status/1138074495711887370
450,000. "For the love of God !" (in Adrian Dunbar's accent). I dont have the care or the will to challenge this stuff anymore.

Isambard

I copied the press release on to a ppro-rail site and was told it was "propaganda" even though they are IE figures.

westtip

Muckyboots wrote: »

https://twitter.com/RailEquality/status/1138074495711887370
450,000. "For the love of God !" (in Adrian Dunbar's accent). I dont have the care or the will to challenge this stuff anymore.

I wouldn't worry too much about Muckyb. The problem with the WRC spin machine it actually believes itself. The key point is that those who need to know the truth, do know the truth.

Lord Glentoran

Athenry - Tuam and Tuam - Claremorris could progress quickly once green light given

http://www.clare.fm/news/transport/extended-western-rail-corridor-progress-quickly-given-green-light/

thomond2006

How can he say there would be access to Cork and Waterford from Claremorris? There would be so many changes/connections, it's a ridiculous comment.

Lord Glentoran

Saw a great T-shirt today. [url] https://www.redmolotov.com/they-dont-like-it-up-em-tshirt[/url]

In other news, here are timetabled connections from Waterford and Cork onto the Limerick-Galway line.

http://www.irishrail.ie/media/12_waterfordclonmellimk.pdf

http://www.irishrail.ie/media/11_galwaylimericktraleecork.pdf

Sam Russell

Looking at Google maps to give directions for Cork to Galway, no rail connection is given. The quickest is 2 hrs 45 mins. In fact rail is not suggested for Cork to Limerick.

Rail does not figure at all.

westtip

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Athenry - Tuam and Tuam - Claremorris could progress quickly once green light given

O'Ragilly speaks therefore it must be true and safe as houses. SF/WOT to achieve their dream of uniting the diaspora in Shannon with the homeland in Derry for All Ireland specials and Reek Sunday.

Isambard

thomond2006 wrote: »

How can he say there would be access to Cork and Waterford from Claremorris? There would be so many changes/connections, it's a ridiculous comment.

you can already do Claremorris to Cork. 4 hours 45 with two changes
Claremorris to Waterford 5 hours 16 with two changes.

thomond2006

Slightly off-topic but has there ever been a proposal for a direct rail link between Cork and Limerick? Could one be built alongside the future Cork-Limerick motorway?

A quick glance at the map shows Limerick to Cork via the existing Charleville-Cork line is almost a straight line. Colbert being a terminus stop would be the big stumbling block with an eventual Cork-Galway link...

Isambard

thomond2006 wrote: »

Slightly off-topic but has there ever been a proposal for a direct rail link between Cork and Limerick? Could one be built alongside the future Cork-Limerick motorway?

A quick glance at the map shows Limerick to Cork via the existing Charleville-Cork line is almost a straight line. Colbert being a terminus stop would be the big stumbling block with an eventual Cork-Galway link...

there was a direct line, closed in the 60s I think. I can't see it being viable to re-build it for a tiny number of passengers..

Del.Monte

The Cork & Limerick Direct Railway (Charleville/Patrickswell) closed to passengers in 1934 and completely in 1967. Reopening would be a much better expenditure of public money than the proposed motorway but the penny still hasn't dropped with many, many people of the scale of the changes that are needed to save the planet.

galwaytt

Del.Monte wrote: »

The Cork & Limerick Direct Railway (Charleville/Patrickswell) closed to passengers in 1934 and completely in 1967. Reopening would be a much better expenditure of public money than the proposed motorway but the penny still hasn't dropped with many, many people of the scale of the changes that are needed to save the planet.

The motorway is needed irrespective of the merits (or otherwise) of a rail line on that route. Road safety grounds alone warrant it.

Sam Russell

galwaytt wrote: »

The motorway is needed irrespective of the merits (or otherwise) of a rail line on that route. Road safety grounds alone warrant it.

Not just road safety, but commercial traffic needs it. HGV traffic will not divert to rail freight.

Lord Glentoran

Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road

Oh dear. Where would dear old Ireland be without such martyrs for their cauze?

serfboard

thomond2006 wrote: »

Slightly off-topic but has there ever been a proposal for a direct rail link between Cork and Limerick? Could one be built alongside the future Cork-Limerick motorway?

We could do what the Germans do and build a train line in between the motorway lanes.

However, I can't see that happening, and once the M20 is built, express bus services using the motorway will take care of any public transport users wanting to travel between the two cities.

As an example of what's possible, Citylink are already running a Galway-Cork non-stop service (currently Fridays and Sundays only) which uses the (existing) Motorways and takes two and a half hours. A Galway to Cork via Limerick service is not going to beat that, given that Galway to Limerick on the existing train service takes two hours alone. And once the M20 is built, I would expect the Galway to Cork service to be 15 minutes (or more) quicker.

westtip

Del.Monte wrote: »

The Cork & Limerick Direct Railway (Charleville/Patrickswell) closed to passengers in 1934 and completely in 1967. Reopening would be a much better expenditure of public money than the proposed motorway but the penny still hasn't dropped with many, many people of the scale of the changes that are needed to save the planet.

I think the penny has well and truly dropped. It's called electric cars.

Del.Monte

westtip wrote: »

I think the penny has well and truly dropped. It's called electric cars.

Yes, of course, electric cars can be built with non fossil fuel products and their tyres, lubricants etc are are organic. You not with the programme.

serfboard

Del.Monte wrote: »

Yes, of course, electric cars can be built with non fossil fuel products and their tyres, lubricants etc are are organic.

Good thing trains don't need lubricants ...

Del.Monte

serfboard wrote: »

Good thing trains don't need lubricants ...

It's all relative, if you think that private cars/trucks etc. are the future you're delusional.

serfboard

Del.Monte wrote: »

if you think that private cars/trucks etc. are the future you're delusional.

I don't actually, but if you think that the 170,000 people that don't live in Galway City are going to get around by train, then you're delusional yourself.

And that's before we get to Thomas The Tank Engine meandering merrily around Mayo ...

Sam Russell

serfboard wrote: »

I don't actually, but if you think that the 170,000 people that don't live in Galway City are going to get around by train, then you're delusional yourself.

And that's before we get to Thomas The Tank Engine meandering merrily around Mayo ...

I think that Thomas the Tank Engine, if ever it is wandering around Mayo, will be on the back of a truck.

Railways require large numbers of passengers to make them viable. There are not enough potential passengers on the old route to be carried on the proposed route. No traffic generators, no tourist traffic going to Tuam or Athenry, no through trains to Galway because of the single track.

It is all fantasy and political promises that can never be fulfilled.

Del.Monte

Meanwhile this was the scene today at Wellington Bridge at the SE end of the Western Rail Corridor. CIE's final (?) inspection car over the Rosslare Strand/Waterford section - note the usual high standard of care and maintenance. :rolleyes:



Photo: Daithi Gazeley.

Lord Glentoran

Del.Monte wrote: »

It's all relative, if you think that private cars/trucks etc. are the future you're delusional.

Alas a lot of people making money on the back of that will fight like rats in a sack to keep that in place for as long as they can.

end of the road

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think that Thomas the Tank Engine, if ever it is wandering around Mayo, will be on the back of a truck.

Railways require large numbers of passengers to make them viable. There are not enough potential passengers on the old route to be carried on the proposed route. No traffic generators, no tourist traffic going to Tuam or Athenry, no through trains to Galway because of the single track.

It is all fantasy and political promises that can never be fulfilled.

if we are talking about the line to tuam and beyond, given the line isn't open and there are no proposed timetables available that we know of, there isn't really any basis to state there won't be through trains to galway. historical services won't be a clue to how the line would be operated if it was to reopen.

XPS_Zero

Del.Monte wrote: »

Meanwhile this was the scene today at Wellington Bridge at the SE end of the Western Rail Corridor. CIE's final (?) inspection car over the Rosslare Strand/Waterford section - note the usual high standard of care and maintenance. :rolleyes:



Photo: Daithi Gazeley.

Why did this section close?
Low passenger turnover?


I get lines like Ballybrophy, where per passenger we could send them via Aer Lingus first class nearly for the same price, but what do you think of the chicken and the egg argument? (any of you)


That IE never bothers to put an attractive service in place in the first place, so it gets no patronage, so they close it. It always amazed me that even during the ash cloud thing they only belatedly adjusted the timetables to coincide with ferry arrivals, this example pulls to mind now.
I think of the shops on board ICRs that are always closed and they never use, they just have a terrible customer service ethos they just don't seem to wanna TRY.


If they are closing Rosslare itself, besides the Bray transfer proposal, which I know some of you hate, but it would lead to more frequency, they don't seem to be EVEN TRYING on this line. Half the trains are uncomfortable commuter sets totally unsuited to this journey meanwhile there are ICRs more suited to Rosslare going through the Phoenix Park Tunnel (why not swap them??). Then it's what every 3 hours? No way thats going to compete with the bus.


I also have to wonder if instead of opening the old line, which in the west seems to be a shambles, it might be better to build a totally new high speed train system on new land to connect the major cities, because even if they did WRC, upgrade Cork, upgrade Belfast the journey times are just not impressive at all, and if the fate of the planet is at stake here with PT solutions should we not be thinking big? Relying on 19th century infrastructure where there are huge speed restrictions just seems like a waste of money.
The single tracking of so much of the network (which horrified me when I looked at a map recently, to see how MUCH of the IE network is single track) also just SCREAMS "don't bother!!!".

serfboard

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Relying on 19th century infrastructure where there are huge speed restrictions just seems like a waste of money.

Correct. Which is why you have a train service between Limerick and Galway that takes two hours, whereas the alternative public transport option (AKA a bus) takes an hour and twenty minutes - or an hour and thirty five minutes if it stops at Shannon Airport, which the train never will.

Lord Glentoran

serfboard wrote: »

Correct. Which is why you have a train service between Limerick and Galway that takes two hours, whereas the alternative public transport option (AKA a bus) takes an hour and twenty minutes - or an hour and thirty five minutes if it stops at Shannon Airport, which the train never will.

All buses? All traffic conditions? Sure why would anyone drive between Galway and Limerick then?

Lord Glentoran

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

All buses? All traffic conditions? Sure why would anyone drive between Galway and Limerick then?

Given that any train is more limited in journey times, frequency, schedule flexibility etc, I'm not sure you should be banging that drum.

serfboard

Deleted User wrote: »

Given that any train is more limited in journey times, frequency, schedule flexibility etc, I'm not sure you should be banging that drum.

Good examples of what you're talking about - if I want to go to Knock, Shannon or Dublin Airports, I can get buses (64, X51, X20/Citylink/GoBus) that will take me right to the front door. I'd be a while waiting for a train.

Similarly, the X51 brings students (heavy users of public transport) directly to and from GMIT, LIT and Limerick University - again demonstrating the flexibility that makes them so useful and popular, and that's before we even talk about scheduling and costs.

Lord Glentoran

Deleted User wrote: »

Given that any train is more limited in journey times, frequency, schedule flexibility etc, I'm not sure you should be banging that drum.

But it’s all about knocking the train as a form of transport. Not about bicycles, not really. I would remain very surprised if any bus outside the small hours would do city centre to city centre in one hour and twenty minutes, considering the almighty mess Galway’s traffic is in. Raising capacity on the railway would have a fraction of the land take for a motorway. Constructing the city bypass will just compound that even further. I’ll have a European model over an American model for the West every time.

whisky_galore

westtip wrote: »

I think the penny has well and truly dropped. It's called electric cars.

I won't be getting an overpriced glorified milk float anytime soon.

Lord Glentoran

whisky_galore wrote: »

I won't be getting an overpriced glorified milk float anytime soon.

The wrong horse is being backed. But hey, this is Ireland. Little America.

Neither electric cars nor driverless cars will solve our problems. They take up as much space as fossil-powered vehicles. Electric cars are already triggering a series of environmental disasters, due to the rush for lithium, cobalt and nickel required to make their batteries. Driverless cars are likely to exacerbate congestion and accelerate climate breakdown, because of the energy demands of the data centres required to control them.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/20/cars-cities-land-rover-pollution-urban-spaces

serfboard

whisky_galore wrote: »

I won't be getting an overpriced glorified milk float anytime soon.

Of the top ten cars sold in Norway this year, nine are electric and the other one is a plug-in-hybrid.

Obviously the Norwegians are really stupid to be driving "glorified milk floats". :rolleyes:

whisky_galore

whisky_galore wrote: »

I won't be getting an overpriced glorified milk float anytime soon.

Some milk float!

And this is a street car, only modification is the traction control is switched off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOXDsUCZfgg

XPS_Zero

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

But it’s all about knocking the train as a form of transport. Not about bicycles, not really. I would remain very surprised if any bus outside the small hours would do city centre to city centre in one hour and twenty minutes, considering the almighty mess Galway’s traffic is in. Raising capacity on the railway would have a fraction of the land take for a motorway. Constructing the city bypass will just compound that even further. I’ll have a European model over an American model for the West every time.

I can't speak for the others, bit I've no agenda to talk down the train option. I love rail transport. I have to go to Belfast a lot and you'd have to pay ME to get a bus (though in July/August I'll have to...why? to update old rail lines!). I find the train more comfy, and on the Dub-Belfast line it's faster than the bus by nearly an hour.

But there are clearly routes (often stupid single track routes) where the reverse is true AND when you combine that with old infrastructure and less frequency it does show there is something to think about.


I think we need proper regional balance in this country, real balance not that decentralization shi1te we had back in the day which diluted to every micky mouse town , but a strategy that builds up the big cities where growth is concentrated in Galway, Limerick and Cork as much as possible instead of ever expanding Dublin.


I think rail can play a key role in that, it always made sense to me we should do WRC, as a concept. I found it crazy that the network in the North is not connected to the west side of the island, Sligo and Derry for example, which are so close but no rail line.


But the more I look into it...it just looks like a waste of money. Maybe it could be done with a very good regional balance policy that encouraged DENSITY in those areas on the west coast but here is where that runs slam into a brick wall as a concept...population.



Problem #1: In order for rail to be lets say half as active on the WRC as it is on the East, or even 1/3, those cities would need more people (hence a regional balance policy) and more density. But I see it in my political circles and policy work all the time, all these culchies want one off housing! They won't live in tall apartment buildings in the cities they all want a big garden in the exurbs with 2 cars and I don't mean farmers here. That kinda lifestyle is totally incompatible with a population relying on rail transport.


Problem #2: We of course have plenty of south dublin suburbanites and exurbanites who wanna live in houses separated from the city, and we get them to use the DART and Luas, even in outlying areas, so why can't we do this on the WRC? Well heres the thing, why do we get the D4 yuppies to use PT? Apart from saving petrol? It's because it's FAST. You have a Luas coming every 4-7 minutes at rush hour SPEEDING you to work and back, so fast you don't mind standing (unless it's cross city Luas which a 90 year old woman could out-sprint breathing from her oxygen tank...). Now with all the single track and speed restrictions and whatnot...you will never get a clockface timetable like the Luas or even the DART or Commuter network. You won't even get something like the old dart timetable of every 15 min, hell the SUNDAY timetable of every half our!

I know WRC is more an intercity thing than a commuter thing but this would be part of it and we'eve seen with the bus issue that it's not competative on intercity either with the bus, and now we see with commuter...so what's left?


Problem #3: Forgive my ignorance growing up on the south Dub coast but my mouth actually opened looking at a vid of an inspection train doing a run on the WRC....there was f---g NOTHING ANYWHERE AROUND FOR MILES AND MILES sometimes one off house or SHACK the place looked DESERTED there was f---g nobody there, and were talking like along the whole line!!



If we built the whole thing is anyone gonna use it??


IMO a WRC with single tracking is IMMEDIATELY a waste of time, right away if you single track any large portion of it you may as well take the pile of euros and light them on fire. Unless it was double tracked, with a proper regional planning policy done in phases it won't work.


Look Im with you in concept, I love rail, and as the PR-nightmare "oh no those douchebags are on our side??" Extinction Rebellion heads never stop reminding us, we have a climate emergency and we need a proper radical PT strategy, but without proper regional planning AND an attitude shift in Irish culture about how we wanna live (stop being afraid of apts and cities and let the garden thing go) it's useless. Even then old style tracks...we'd nearly be better using a new system with new type of tracks new routes and new trains than this old skool crap.

Lord Glentoran

Indeed. I agree with most of what you say. I’ve always argued for greater planning densities in the rail connected towns - both for sustainable urban renewal and to break the itch/scratch cycle of low rural density and car dependence.

whisky_galore

serfboard wrote: »

Of the top ten cars sold in Norway this year, nine are electric and the other one is a plug-in-hybrid.

Obviously the Norwegians are really stupid to be driving "glorified milk floats". :rolleyes:

Unaffordable for me and many others here. Can't afford a brand new car of any kind, and why would I want to buy a second hand electric with a half clapped out battery, moreso out in the sticks? Disingenuous bringing up Norwegians who can crap money in comparison, enough of that however back OT.

serfboard

whisky_galore wrote: »

Unaffordable for me and many others here. Can't afford a brand new car of any kind, and why would I want to buy a second hand electric with a half clapped out battery, moreso out in the sticks? Disingenuous bringing up Norwegians who can crap money in comparison, enough of that however back OT.

OK, so now that you've realised that it's ridiculous to describe electric cars as "glorified milk floats", the issue becomes price.

serfboard

serfboard wrote: »

OK, so now that you've realised that it's ridiculous to describe electric cars as "glorified milk floats", the issue becomes price.

Which is falling year on year

The price of battery components is dropping while capacities are increasing

It's just about at the sweet spot for many

But none of this has anything to do with the thread topic

Can I suggest that further discussion on ev's be done on the eV forum https://touch.boards.ie/forum/1634

They could always run battery trains over the route. :P