Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

serfboard

Sean Canney was on Sean O'Rourke this morning. A propos of nothing, he mentioned the WRC, so he obviously thinks it's a vote winner for him.

[The following quotes are "words to the effect"].

"But no-one's using it", says Sean.

"Over four hundred thousand used it last year", says Canney, betting that a "them above in Dubbalin" journalist won't know that he's including pre-existing routes in that figure.

"Are you including people going from Athenry to Galway in that", says Sean. "Sure they're using the existing Dublin line".

Canney admits that he is including it, but then says that the Ennis->Athenry section is the "fastest-growing" section on the rail network.

Indeed Mr Canney. If half a bus load were using it previously, and three quarters of a busload are using it now, that might make it fast-growing, but that still doesn't make a full busload and still doesn't justify the spending of over one hundred million euro in Capital Expenditure, not to mention the ongoing Operational Expenditure including the massive subsidies on the train fare.

ezstreet5

serfboard wrote: »

Sean Canney was on Sean O'Rourke this morning. A propos of nothing, he mentioned the WRC, so he obviously thinks it's a vote winner for him.

[The following quotes are "words to the effect"].

"But no-one's using it", says Sean.

"Over four hundred thousand used it last year", says Canney, betting that a "them above in Dubbalin" journalist won't know that he's including pre-existing routes in that figure.

"Are you including people going from Athenry to Galway in that", says Sean. "Sure they're using the existing Dublin line".

Canney admits that he is including it, but then says that the Ennis->Athenry section is the "fastest-growing" section on the rail network.

Indeed Mr Canney. If half a bus load were using it previously, and three quarters of a busload are using it now, that might make it fast-growing, but that still doesn't make a full busload and still doesn't justify the spending of over one hundred million euro in Capital Expenditure, not to mention the ongoing Operational Expenditure including the massive subsidies on the train fare.

I timed my stroll down to the pub on Sunday to coincide with the 18:53 service to Limerick and there were 80 people on the train departing Athenry.

serfboard

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I timed my stroll down to the pub on Sunday to coincide with the 18:53 service to Limerick and there were 80 people on the train departing Athenry.

The plural of anecdotes is data, and the data definitively refutes your anecdote.

One busy-ish train does not a viable line make.

ezstreet5

serfboard wrote: »

The plural of anecdotes is data, and the data definitively refutes your anecdote.

One busy-ish train does not a viable line make.

Isn't "anecdotes" already plural? And isn't "datum" the the singular of "data?" Regardless, we don't need any because for some, ridership can never be high enough to justify reactivation of the WRC. (Because if it was, we would have to re-open our minds, and we can't have that).

eastwest

serfboard wrote: »

The plural of anecdotes is data, and the data definitively refutes your anecdote.

One busy-ish train does not a viable line make.

It's the third worst performing line in Ireland.

Greaney

serfboard wrote: »

Sean Canney was on Sean O'Rourke this morning. A propos of nothing, he mentioned the WRC, so he obviously thinks it's a vote winner for him.

It is. Truth is, everyone want's to see something, anything on the line. The Western Rail Corridor Campaign has been going a lot longer than the greenway. Sadly Varadkar kicked the project down the road, so folks got disillusioned.


You are underestimating the support for rail, the backlash that may come from the anti-Canney posts on the Quietman Greenway Page, and the cynicism their campaign is stirring. It just looks like a dirty politics page with folk outside the constituency trying to manipulate the vote over one issue.

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/news/roundup/articles/2019/03/29/4171738-government-accused-of-blocking-eu-funding-for-western-rail-corridor/

Greaney

Greaney wrote: »

It is. Truth is, everyone want's to see something, anything on the line. The Western Rail Corridor Campaign has been going a lot longer than the greenway. Sadly Varadkar kicked the project down the road, so folks got disillusioned.


You are underestimating the support for rail, the backlash that may come from the anti-Canney posts on the Quietman Greenway Page, and the cynicism their campaign is stirring. It just looks like a dirty politics page with folk outside the constituency trying to manipulate the vote over one issue.

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/news/roundup/articles/2019/03/29/4171738-government-accused-of-blocking-eu-funding-for-western-rail-corridor/

Simply put, it's down to numbers. 40 turned up in Athenry for a WRC meeting by WOT/Sinn Fein and 3,000 turned up in Tuam for a march supporting the greenway. These are the local people you are talking about, it's easy to see where the support is

Also, the WRC does not qualify for TEN-T funding no matter what way you try to dress it up, it just simply does not meet the criteria

westtip

Greaney wrote: »

It is. Truth is, everyone want's to see something, anything on the line. The Western Rail Corridor Campaign has been going a lot longer than the greenway. Sadly Varadkar kicked the project down the road, so folks got disillusioned.


You are underestimating the support for rail, the backlash that may come from the anti-Canney posts on the Quietman Greenway Page, and the cynicism their campaign is stirring. It just looks like a dirty politics page with folk outside the constituency trying to manipulate the vote over one issue.

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/news/roundup/articles/2019/03/29/4171738-government-accused-of-blocking-eu-funding-for-western-rail-corridor/

The WRC campaign has been running longer...and your point is? does that make the WRC campaign right and the greenway campaign wrong.

Re your other comments re these dreadful outsiders on the campaign trail dem outsiders are so dangerous, fair play to them whoever they are, it seems that dreadful FB page is being read and posts highlighting Mr Canney have been shared extraordinarily, mind you I still suspect he will be returned.

serfboard

Greaney wrote: »

You are underestimating the support for rail

You may be right, but several thousand people marching in Tuam tells me that you are underestimating the support for a Greenway on the route.

Greaney wrote: »

the Quietman Greenway Page ... looks like a dirty politics page with folk outside the constituency trying to manipulate the vote over one issue.

I don't know about that because I'm not on Facebook, so a page on Facebook hasn't influenced me in the slightest.

And speaking of "folk outside the constituency trying to manipulate the vote over one issue"? You're having a laugh aren't you? Because that's what the Mayo gang have been trying to do for years.

ohographite

eastwest wrote: »

It's the third worst performing line in Ireland.

The patronage of the Ennis-Athenry section is barely below the patronage of Limerick-Ennis, and Manulla-Ballina.
I think it is harsh to suggest closing down these lines.

serfboard

ohographite wrote: »

The patronage of the Ennis-Athenry section is barely below the patronage of Limerick-Ennis, and Manulla-Ballina.
I think it is harsh to suggest closing down these lines.

While I'm not too sure how many here are advocating that, the main feeling here of Greenway supporters is not to repeat previous mistakes, and to use the line north of Athenry for a public good - and which enjoys popular support.

Greaney

serfboard wrote: »

While I'm not too sure how many here are advocating that, the main feeling here of Greenway supporters is not to repeat previous mistakes, and to use the line north of Athenry for a public good - and which enjoys popular support.

I dunno about popular support, the Athenry St. Patricks Day parade last year had bikes in it's theme.... they talked about entering, but not one advocate for the Quiet Man Greenway turned up on a bike.

I suspect they're not marching for a cycleway, they're marching for their small town economy, tourism & money it will bring.... They were denied the rail for so long now....

Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but a longing fulfilled is a tree of life. Proverbs 13:12.

ShaneC1600

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Also, the WRC does not qualify for TEN-T funding no matter what way you try to dress it up, it just simply does not meet the criteria

Why would the WRC not qualify?

L1011

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Why would the WRC not qualify?

Because it's not in TEN-T quite simply

serfboard

Greaney wrote: »

I dunno about popular support

Well I do and I've just posted the link to prove it which you've ignored.

Greaney wrote: »

the Athenry St. Patricks Day parade last year had bikes in it's theme.... they talked about entering, but not one advocate for the Quiet Man Greenway turned up on a bike.

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything ... the QMG doesn't have popular support because no-one from the campaign showed up on a bike in a St. Patrick's day parade in Athenry?

ShaneC1600

L1011 wrote: »

Because it's not in TEN-T quite simply

So it doesn’t qualify because it isn’t in it. K so

Greaney

serfboard wrote: »

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything ... the QMG doesn't have popular support because no-one from the campaign showed up on a bike in a St. Patrick's day parade in Athenry?

It illustrates their commitment to their 'cause' in Athenry. Not much. They're not cycle advocates. Athenry was the place that the pro-rail meeting happened because Athenry actually experiences how much people really use the railway.

The quietman greenway facebook page deletes and bans anyone that had a disenting view other than theirs so I can understand how folk think there's no support for the railway. But there is another page that's pro-rail... and that campaign sucessfully got phase 1 opened...

eastwest

ohographite wrote: »

The patronage of the Ennis-Athenry section is barely below the patronage of Limerick-Ennis, and Manulla-Ballina.
I think it is harsh to suggest closing down these lines.

I wasn't suggesting closing it down, just pointing out that it's not the success that Sean Canney claims it is.

eastwest

Greaney wrote: »

It illustrates their commitment to their 'cause' in Athenry. Not much. They're not cycle advocates. Athenry was the place that the pro-rail meeting happened because Athenry actually experiences how much people really use the railway.

The quietman greenway facebook page deletes and bans anyone that had a disenting view other than theirs so I can understand how folk think there's no support for the railway. But there is another page that's pro-rail... and that campaign sucessfully got phase 1 opened...

That campaign was based on a 'build it first, and work out the business case later' type of thinking that was common enough when Charlie McCreevy couldn't wait to spend all the stamp duty he was collecting from the housing bubble.
Those days are gone, but the rail campaign can't seem to accept that. They live in hope that somehow the ducks will line up again and some Taoiseach will throw a few hundred million at the project just to get support from a WOT TD whose vote makes the difference.
But they can't seem to grasp that they had that lever last time around, and all it could produce was a rail report, a report so damning of the case for rail north of athenry that the same lever had to be used to make sure it never saw the light of day.

Greaney

Everyone keeps talking about the numbers on the train, but no new figures have been released so I'm not quiet sure what they mean.

From looking at the train pulling out of Athenry going south, or pulling in from Craughwell in the mornings, the numbers have clearly been growing, a lot, and it's quiet a busy train now. I'm astonished folk keep saying it's empty. No one who uses it, or.... looks at it, would say that.

ShaneC1600

eastwest wrote: »

But they can't seem to grasp that they had that lever last time around, and all it could produce was a rail report, a report so damning of the case for rail north of athenry that the same lever had to be used to make sure it never saw the light of day.

So you have seen the report? Tell more please. I'm very interested. What was the conclusions???

ShaneC1600

Greaney wrote: »

Everyone keeps talking about the numbers on the train, but no new figures have been released so I'm not quiet sure what they mean.

From looking at the train pulling out of Athenry going south, or pulling in from Craughwell in the mornings, the numbers have clearly been growing, a lot, and it's quiet a busy train now. I'm astonished folk keep saying it's empty. No one who uses it, or.... looks at it, would say that.

If they keep saying it is empty people will believe it, also most of who say it don't use it or ever see it and only have their 39 a day number from CC or 39 a train by last set of numbers. I wonder when will the most up to date figures be released? Definitely looks to be a big increase in patronage in the last number of months.

intellectual dosser

eastwest wrote: »

That campaign was based on a 'build it first, and work out the business case later' type of thinking that was common enough when Charlie McCreevy couldn't wait to spend all the stamp duty he was collecting from the housing bubble.
Those days are gone, but the rail campaign can't seem to accept that. They live in hope that somehow the ducks will line up again and some Taoiseach will throw a few hundred million at the project just to get support from a WOT TD whose vote makes the difference.
But they can't seem to grasp that they had that lever last time around, and all it could produce was a rail report, a report so damning of the case for rail north of athenry that the same lever had to be used to make sure it never saw the light of day.

I believe that if the WRC was extended to Tuam or Claremorris or Collooney that it wouldnt be profitable on Day 1, after Year 1 and maybe not even after Year 5.

But look at the mass migration from west to east, from our rural areas to economic centers. How do we either prevent or support that or both? Galway's population is going to grow by 50% by 2025, where will people live and how will they get from A to B?

If Dublin was rebuilt in the morning would people wait for the population to increase before putting in public transport? No. We need to build for the future. Knock it back as anecdotal, but this is what we need to do.

ShaneC1600

intellectual dosser wrote: »

I believe that if the WRC was extended to Tuam or Claremorris or Collooney that it wouldnt be profitable on Day 1, after Year 1 and maybe not even after Year 5.

But look at the mass migration from west to east, from our rural areas to economic centers. How do we either prevent or support that or both? Galway's population is going to grow by 50% by 2025, where will people live and how will they get from A to B?

If Dublin was rebuilt in the morning would people wait for the population to increase before putting in public transport? No. We need to build for the future. Knock it back as anecdotal, but this is what we need to do.

That is why there is such a big push to get the greenway now. The longer it goes on the more likely it is to have the railway reopened. A better spend of several million euro this minute would be a cycle track from Oranmore to galway via Parkmore or of course we could stick a greenway on a direct link from north Galway that travels directly into the city.

Accidentally

intellectual dosser wrote: »

I believe that if the WRC was extended to Tuam or Claremorris or Collooney that it wouldnt be profitable on Day 1, after Year 1 and maybe not even after Year 5.

But look at the mass migration from west to east, from our rural areas to economic centers. How do we either prevent or support that or both? Galway's population is going to grow by 50% by 2025, where will people live and how will they get from A to B?

If Dublin was rebuilt in the morning would people wait for the population to increase before putting in public transport? No. We need to build for the future. Knock it back as anecdotal, but this is what we need to do.

If you are building for the future, you would build a new line via Claregalway and the industrial estates north of Galway. A hell of a lot more useful for people commuting to Galway, and suburban traffic in the city

intellectual dosser

Accidentally wrote: »

If you are building for the future, you would build a new line via Claregalway and the industrial estates north of Galway. A hell of a lot more useful for people commuting to Galway, and suburban traffic in the city

I hear you but this is where we probably have to be realistic. The city can't get a ringroad, that everyone agrees is needed, built. The WRC has the land all but ready to go, simply re-instating something that was there in the past.

Isambard

realistically, a train from Tuam would entail changing at Athenry. Not likely to be a popular option.

Accidentally

intellectual dosser wrote: »

I hear you but this is where we probably have to be realistic. The city can't get a ringroad, that everyone agrees is needed, built. The WRC has the land all but ready to go, simply re-instating something that was there in the past.

I don't see any point in fighting for a rail line to somewhere no one wants to go. Much better to fight for a rail line that people would actually use.

To get from Tuam to Mervue with the WRC would likely involve two trains and a bus. No one is going to do that if they can drive or get a direct bus from Tuam

ShaneC1600

Accidentally wrote: »

If you are building for the future, you would build a new line via Claregalway and the industrial estates north of Galway. A hell of a lot more useful for people commuting to Galway, and suburban traffic in the city

But that is not going to happen no matter what. The railway has predated all building activity in the country. The fact that we did not utilize the service is our own fault. We should have prioritised construction around stations, IDA should have purchased land surrounding or adjoining the railway. We can't go back but we can change the way we plan for the future. Athenry looks like it could be a hub for alot of activity in the next few years if the government wanted or local politicians for that matter. The IDA site needs to be serviced. If even one of the medical factories moved some R&D to athenry surely more would follow. Then there would be connectivity to where people wanted to go.
Parkmore is beyond capacity, especially for transport whereas Athenry is primed for development. Motorway access north, south east and west. Railway access same directions. Crazy to keep putting buildings and more people in Parkmore when this right on the doorstep.

what_traffic

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Crazy to keep putting buildings and more people in Parkmore when this right on the doorstep.

I agree with most of your post - but is it really that crazy?
Alot of the expansion of Parkmore is based on the current occupiers adding additional buildings. Why would they want to split operations?

Lord Glentoran

Isambard wrote: »

realistically, a train from Tuam would entail changing at Athenry. Not likely to be a popular option.

Realistically there could be double track from Galway to Athenry.

Clearly an impossibility in Ireland for some.

Greaney

Isambard wrote: »

realistically, a train from Tuam would entail changing at Athenry. Not likely to be a popular option.

Folk going from Athlone, Ballinasloe etc. to Ennis Limerick have no issues with changing in Athenry. Irish rail, for all their faults, seem to have co-ordinated it so the trains are in the station at the same time. I see a good 15-20 dashing across the bridge between the two trains on the Sunday evening service when they both pull into Athenry. That's not including those who are just on the train already or embarking from Athenry.

eastwest

intellectual dosser wrote: »

I believe that if the WRC was extended to Tuam or Claremorris or Collooney that it wouldnt be profitable on Day 1, after Year 1 and maybe not even after Year 5.

But look at the mass migration from west to east, from our rural areas to economic centers. How do we either prevent or support that or both? Galway's population is going to grow by 50% by 2025, where will people live and how will they get from A to B?

If Dublin was rebuilt in the morning would people wait for the population to increase before putting in public transport? No. We need to build for the future. Knock it back as anecdotal, but this is what we need to do.

Unfortunately that's what gave us the debacle of ennis athenry, building infrastructure based on a gut feeling and guesswork.

Sligo eye

eastwest wrote: »

Unfortunately that's what gave us the debacle of ennis athenry, building infrastructure based on a gut feeling and guesswork.

The only ones saying that are you and your cohort in the anti rail campaign.

what_traffic

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Realistically there could be double track from Galway to Athenry.

Build that. Create 2/3 NEW stations as well while doing it.

intellectual dosser

what_traffic wrote: »

Build that. Create 2/3 NEW stations as well while doing it.

Galway City Council are calling for that. IE have said they're positively disposed to the double tracking for a start. I'd imagine this would take time and disruption, bridges and level crossings would take work.

I'm certainly for it, but I think it would take years to deliver?

Greaney

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Galway City Council are calling for that. IE have said they're positively disposed to the double tracking for a start. I'd imagine this would take time and disruption, bridges and level crossings would take work.

I'm certainly for it, but I think it would take years to deliver?

Yes Alas, it all takes years to happen... West on Track started in 2003 but there was a campaign going long before that. The Athenry to Tuam section was to be built in 2011 so you can see how projects can stall without political will... And politics will always go with short term goals (votes) over long term stratagey ( the common good)

what_traffic

intellectual dosser wrote: »

I'm certainly for it, but I think it would take years to deliver?

Yes - but it will be worth delivering as it will be used.

intellectual dosser

what_traffic wrote: »

Yes - but it will be worth delivering as it will be used.

For sure, but worth factoring into the WRC discussion. There would be little point in connecting Claremorris to Athenry only for Athenry to be cut off from Galway for a year (?) while they double track the line.

If double tracking is a runner it should probably be done first. I know doing them in tandem would be most ideal but that doesn't exactly happen with the funding and political will.

end of the road

Isambard wrote: »

realistically, a train from Tuam would entail changing at Athenry. Not likely to be a popular option.

the problem is that without any sort of timetable, i would suggest that this can only ever be speculation, as historical services from over 40 years ago aren't really a viable guide to modern day services and operations on a line if reopened, and using them to judge how things would be done doesn't stack up given other previous reopenings.

Isambard

when cost benefit analysis is done though, double tracking into Galway and running through services from Tuam could tip the balance too far the wrong way. Realistic is the word I picked up on.

ShaneC1600

what_traffic wrote: »

I agree with most of your post - but is it really that crazy?
Alot of the expansion of Parkmore is based on the current occupiers adding additional buildings. Why would they want to split operations?

For sure, for the most part it is extensions but they are extensions with increased workers with an inadequate road network therefore planning is inadequate and "crazy" imo. Council/politicians need to create an incentive to the organisations to move/split operations, if the incentive was beneficial enough they would want to move. Space is getting restrictive up there and traffic is not improving.

end of the road

Isambard wrote: »

when cost benefit analysis is done though, double tracking into Galway and running through services from Tuam could tip the balance too far the wrong way. Realistic is the word I picked up on.

i would very much doubt it as apparently double tracking athenry to galway will have to be done anyway in the long term
.

what_traffic

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Council/politicians need to create an incentive to the organisations to move/split operations, if the incentive was beneficial enough they would want to move. Space is getting restrictive up there and traffic is not improving.

Cannot see that happening unless its a brand new org who want to move to Galway City. The Oranmore IDA is a good example....
No bus lanes yet up in Parkmore.

serfboard

what_traffic wrote: »

No bus lanes yet up in Parkmore.

This is what makes a joke of all this discussion.

People are on here proposing tens of millions for a line north of Athenry, and we can't even get the basic and inexpensive things right.

Isambard

end of the road wrote: »

i would very much doubt it as apparently double tracking athenry to galway will have to be done anyway in the long term
.

and if running through to Galway entailed a second unit and second driver?

ShaneC1600

serfboard wrote: »

This is what makes a joke of all this discussion.

People are on here proposing tens of millions for a line north of Athenry, and we can't even get the basic and inexpensive things right.

We cant even get an adequate development plan in place! Something has to be done though, traffic is terrible and getting worse.

We also can't continue to plan for the now when we know population is increasing. Also very little election chat regarding transport this time around, people are fixated on a report when its an achievable long term transport plan that is required for the city and county.

Muckyboots

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

We cant even get an adequate development plan in place! Something has to be done though, traffic is terrible and getting worse.

We also can't continue to plan for the now when we know population is increasing. Also very little election chat regarding transport this time around, people are fixated on a report when its an achievable long term transport plan that is required for the city and county.

Here I agree. The report has been a distraction trick from the start where people have been stupidly sucked in and blown out in bubbles. Whatever you are doing, rail or trail, just get on with it.

end of the road

Isambard wrote: »

and if running through to Galway entailed a second unit and second driver?

i suspect it will require a couple of units to run it anyway. if it reopens then by the time it does there will be plenty of stock and no excuses i would imagine.

Isambard

end of the road wrote: »

i suspect it will require a couple of units to run it anyway. if it reopens then by the time it does there will be plenty of stock and no excuses i would imagine.

the problem is what you are expecting is a commuter service which would entail high frequency and that's a higher level of service than most lines get. A two hourly frequency would be of little use to many commuters. Cost benefit.

Investment on this level would be of far greater cost/benefit if used to improve the line towards Dublin, an inconvenient fact for the Tuam /rail supporters.