Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

eastwest

intellectual dosser wrote: »

This is the part I don't get.

Phase 1 of the WRC is complete. An independent review was commissioned on the remainder. A motion to conduct a feasibility study on the QMG couldnt get past a vote by Galway County Council, but in your eyes its the WRC that is the myth.

The QMG side seem to spike the ball at any soundbite in favour of greenway regardless of its origin or context and declare this whole thing a foregone conclusion. The posts and commentary on that NWRA strategy publication this week proved that.

Its bizarre to be honest.

I'll tell you what's bizarre.
A TD who is deeply embedded in WOT agrees to support a minority government on one condition (apart from a good slice of extra money for himself), that he gets a review of the wrc within six months.
He could have got almost anything for his constituency, but he chose instead to devote all.his political capital towards getting this report done.
Six months came and went, and no report, yet he never threatened to pull the plug. Had he realised at that stage that there was never a chance of getting the railway? Had he found out that reality is a different thing from campaign promises?
When he finally got the report, he allowed his ministerial colleague to suppress it. He didn't at any time publicly ask for the report. Of the approximately twenty TDs who sought the report under PQs, our hero wasn't one of them.
Just consider that for a minute. Twenty TDs asked to see the rail report, formally and on the record of the Dail. Yet the man who had staked his political credibility on this same report, the man who caused half a million euro of our money to be spent on it, never opened his mouth.
Now that's bizarre. It's GUBU.

ezstreet5

intellectual dosser wrote: »

This is the part I don't get.

A motion to conduct a feasibility study on the QMG couldnt get past a vote by Galway County Council, but in your eyes its the WRC that is the myth.

The motion ultimately did pass the County Council - that is - to seek funding for a feasibility study under a new 4.5 million funding stream from DTTAS. That study may not be approved, and it probably shouldn't be. It's entirely unnecessary. Of course it is feasible or possible or plausible to build a bicycle path on an unused rail line. The question is, is it expedient? The answer will be a resounding 'no.' The opportunity cost is too high.

The problem is that Galway Co. Co. is packed with novice politicians that are still swayed by Facebook campaigns, and affected by email and text message campaigns, and other 'low-level' activism (stirred by a local TD). The Galway councilors are not experienced enough to ignore that noise.

intellectual dosser

ezstreet5 wrote: »

The motion ultimately did pass the County Council - that is - to seek funding for a feasibility study under a new 4.5 million funding stream from DTTAS. That study may not be approved, and it probably shouldn't be. It's entirely unnecessary. Of course it is feasible or possible or plausible to build a bicycle path on an unused rail line. The question is, is it expedient? The answer will be a resounding 'no.' The opportunity cost is too high.

The problem is that Galway Co. Co. is packed with novice politicians that are still swayed by Facebook campaigns, and affected by email and text message campaigns, and other 'low-level' activism (stirred by a local TD). The Galway councilors are not experienced enough to ignore that noise.

Even as a rail advocate I would prefer if there was a feasibility study done on the Quiet Man Greenway.

At the moment Ciaran Cannon is regularly stating that it would transform the region and provide countless jobs. It would be useful if these statements were substantiated and we could critically evaluate both options based on actual findings.

ezstreet5

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Even as a rail advocate I would prefer if there was a feasibility study done on the Quiet Man Greenway.

At the moment Ciaran Cannon is regularly stating that it would transform the region and provide countless jobs. It would be useful if these statements were substantiated and we could critically evaluate both options based on actual findings.

And some of these questions cannot be answered in a scientific manner. Would a "Quiet Man Greenway" attract the same level of tourism as costal greenways in areas of outstanding natural beauty? Probably not, but how does one quantify the discount? According to Cannon there is no discount, and if you build the greenway (the lucrative tourists) will come and spend. I know that isn't true, and we need much more tourist infrastructure than we have, and we don't have it yet, at least not in Athenry.

Greaney

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Even as a rail advocate I would prefer if there was a feasibility study done on the Quiet Man Greenway.

At the moment Ciaran Cannon is regularly stating that it would transform the region and provide countless jobs. It would be useful if these statements were substantiated and we could critically evaluate both options based on actual findings.

You've brought up something rather interesting because I'd like to see figures comparing the Westport greenway to the Mullingar greenway also. Not all greenways are equal....

Meanwhile, the funding & expertise is still working on the Eurovelo in East Galway... and what with the Connemara Greenway that has 'actually' gotten the green light, I don't see money pouring into a third cycling route into the county unless it is shovel ready. Furthermore, everyone seems to forget.... Iarnrod Eireann own the land the WRC runs on.... I'm sure they're watching and listening to everything, and are on standby. My experience of them is they don't say no to stuff... they don't say yes either, unless you've got all your ducks in a row and are ready to shoot.

There was a lot more work done on the Connemara Greenway, by more seasoned cycling advocates than the Quiet Man Greenway long before they got a look in.... I watch and learn

Sligo eye

Greaney wrote: »

You've brought up something rather interesting because I'd like to see figures comparing the Westport greenway to the Mullingar greenway also. Not all greenways are equal....

Meanwhile, the funding & expertise is still working on the Eurovelo in East Galway... and what with the Connemara Greenway that has 'actually' gotten the green light, I don't see money pouring into a third cycling route into the county unless it is shovel ready. Furthermore, everyone seems to forget.... Iarnrod Eireann own the land the WRC runs on.... I'm sure they're watching and listening to everything, and are on standby. My experience of them is they don't say no to stuff... they don't say yes either, unless you've got all your ducks in a row and are ready to shoot.

There was a lot more work done on the Connemara Greenway, by more seasoned cycling advocates than the Quiet Man Greenway long before they got a look in.... I watch and learn

I’d say the powers that be who determine Greenway spending will prioritise the EuroVelo from Athlone all the way to Clifden. That’s a greenway that will catch the imagination alright. Dublin all the way to Connemara by bike will attract far more tourists from Ireland and beyond than the so called Quiet Man greenway.,

Perhaps I have spotted something. The Quiet Man greenway will indeed be quiet. Apart from Sunday mornings when muckyboots and pals go for their Sunday morning spin up to Claremorris and back.

A Local Greenway for Local People, perhaps that will be their motto.

ezstreet5

Sligo eye wrote: »

I’d say the powers that be who determine Greenway spending will prioritise the EuroVelo from Athlone all the way to Clifden. That’s a greenway that will catch the imagination alright. Dublin all the way to Connemara by bike will attract far more tourists from Ireland and beyond than the so called Quiet Man greenway.,

Perhaps I have spotted something. The Quiet Man greenway will indeed be quiet. Apart from Sunday mornings when muckyboots and pals go for their Sunday morning spin up to Claremorris and back.

A Local Greenway for Local People, perhaps that will be their motto.

Holy cow!

Sligo eye

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Even as a rail advocate I would prefer if there was a feasibility study done on the Quiet Man Greenway.

At the moment Ciaran Cannon is regularly stating that it would transform the region and provide countless jobs. It would be useful if these statements were substantiated and we could critically evaluate both options based on actual findings.

You have to remember that no matter how outlandish, or how implausible, greenway supporting statements do not need proof, financial justification or even credibility checking.

The Lord(s) hath spoken, and we should quake at their power and awesomeness, etc.

MayoForSam

Sligo eye wrote: »

A Local Greenway for Local People, perhaps that will be their motto.

3000 local people from Tuam perhaps?



- September 23rd, 2018, Tuam people march in support of QMG campaign.....

ezstreet5

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Consider Switzerland. The island of Ireland has about twice the land area, and about 78% of the population of Switzerland. Ireland's topography is rather flat compared to to Switzerland's (those annoying Alps!).

Yet, the Swiss have almost double the trackage compared to Ireland (with hundreds of km of tunnels), and nearly all of it is electrified.

The Swiss would not think twice about reinstating the WRC to Sligo (and beyond to the North). And they would electrify it (and all other lines). It would be a no-brainer to them, and not a myth.

And I suppose you could look at German rail and French rail in a similar manner.

I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make here?
Switzerland has three times the population density of this island (77.8/km2 vs 207/km2) and those people are concentrated in the more hospital valleys than scattered across a very flat and hospitable landscape.

Galway county has a population density of 42 per square km - picking a vaguely similar canton seems to be Valais.
Valais does indeed seem to have some impressive tunnels but perhaps these have more to do with it being in the centre of a continent of hundreds of millions of people than with area or population density.

https://www.regionalps.ch/train-valais/lignes-1663.html
The regional train service is two lines totalling 146km

Sligo eye

MayoForSam wrote: »

3000 local people from Tuam perhaps?



- September 23rd, 2018, Tuam people march in support of QMG campaign.....

And all those people marching against Brexit in Britain. They were listened to, weren’t they?

Greaney

Sigh, refuting you is getting to be a near daily occurrence

Ah well, keeps me occupied

Greaney wrote: »

You've brought up something rather interesting because I'd like to see figures comparing the Westport greenway to the Mullingar greenway also. Not all greenways are equal....

700 average daily users or to express it another way, about 3 weeks worth of trains in a single day

Note, that is without any promotion and those numbers are from ages ago. A MoU has been signed by Waterways Ireland and Westmeath, Kildare, Meath and Longford County Councils about contributing equally to a financial pie to promote the greenway nationally and internationally, as a tourist destination.

Some €1m has already been put into installing soft infrastructure along the greenway, such as benches, signage, fences and improved pavement.

The next phase is to launch and promote it, with each county contributing money and initiatives for same. However, the launch has been delayed by the Covid-19 outbreak.

Greaney wrote: »

Furthermore, everyone seems to forget.... Iarnrod Eireann own the land the WRC runs on.... I'm sure they're watching and listening to everything, and are on standby. My experience of them is they don't say no to stuff... they don't say yes either, unless you've got all your ducks in a row and are ready to shoot.

They already indicated they are willing to sign a lease on the line to the relevant councils

Greaney wrote: »

I will add that the Ballyglunin station committee officially support rail, they made a statement regarding that on their facebook page.

Is that the same facebook page that just 4 weeks ago posted that they have installed a sculpture to highlight their frustration with the slow progress of the Quiet Man Greenway?

Greaney wrote: »

I've personally talked to the folk in Ballyglunin in one of their station events. They'd all like the rail. They're under no illusion to the tourism draw of their wee station that they love and have put a lot of work in to.

Please do not misrepresent them. As per the above, they have even gone so far as to illustrate their frustration in a physical manifestation

donvito99

Sligo eye wrote: »

Keeps you occupied? I suggest you find a more rewarding hobby.

His hobby would seem to be more rewarding than yours, which is just to post snotty, one line retorts to substantial points that you cannot challenge.

Sligo eye

donvito99 wrote: »

His hobby would seem to be more rewarding than yours, which is just to post snotty, one line retorts to substantial points that you cannot challenge.

I think it’s called “shooting fish in a barrel”

Sligo eye

Sligo eye wrote: »

You have to remember that no matter how outlandish, or how implausible, greenway supporting statements do not need proof, financial justification or even credibility checking.

The Lord(s) hath spoken, and we should quake at their power and awesomeness, etc.

Oh, you wanted a feasibility study, here is the one from Sligo CoCo for their portion of the line

https://www.sligococo.ie/PublicNotices/SligoGreenway/

Allow me to paste the main findings

• There are no technical reasons why the greenway project should not proceed.
• The proposed greenway would provide a sustainable, scenic and safe walking and cycling facility which will benefit the wider north west region.
• Responses received indicate that consultees are overwhelmingly positive towards the project.
• The on-line option was identified as the preferred option under almost all headings as the alongside option would entail significant additional civil engineering works with environmental implications and is more likely to encounter land ownership issues which may prove as significant obstacles to the project’s completion.
• Detailed costings indicated that the on-line option would be at the lower end of the cost range on which the Meehan Tully (2016) report based its cost benefit analysis, and suggests a two year payback as the likely economic impact of the project. The cost of the alongside option was estimated to be 3.5 times the cost of the on-line option.
• The proposed greenway will require Part 8 Planning Application in accordance with Planning and Development Regulations 2001 as amended. A Screening for Appropriate Assessment under Article 6(3) of the EU Habitats Directive (Directive 92/43/EEC), the Planning and Development Act 2000 (as amended), and the European Communities (Birds and Natural Habitats) Regulations 2011 (S.I. No. 477/2011) as amended and Screening for an Environmental Impact Assessment (EIA) in accordance with the EIA Directive 2014/52/EU and the Planning and Development Regulations 2001 (as amended) will also be required.

Pete_Cavan

Reopening Athenry to Tuam as railway would likely cost in the region of €50m (its about half the length of Athenry to Ennis which cost over €100m, add in bridge and a decade of inflation). For that, you would only be able to run a shuttle service between the two towns, the single track mainline won't facilitate more services. Given Athenry - Tuam would be single track, the service would be infrequent, how many morning commuter services could it realistically accommodate?

The capital and operating costs of the above would be significant. For virtually no additional capital spend and a fraction of the operating costs, a shuttle bus service could be provided instead. The bus would likely provide a better service as there is no infrastructure limitations on the frequency. There is no case for the railway and the yet to be released report almost certainly states as much.

TCDStudent1

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Reopening Athenry to Tuam as railway would likely cost in the region of €50m (its about half the length of Athenry to Ennis which cost over €100m, add in bridge and a decade of inflation). For that, you would only be able to run a shuttle service between the two towns, the single track mainline won't facilitate more services. Given Athenry - Tuam would be single track, the service would be infrequent, how many morning commuter services could it realistically accommodate?

The capital and operating costs of the above would be significant. For virtually no additional capital spend and a fraction of the operating costs, a shuttle bus service could be provided instead. The bus would likely provide a better service as there is no infrastructure limitations on the frequency. There is no case for the railway and the yet to be released report almost certainly states as much.

One way, what would be the travel time on rail between Tuam and athenry?

Pete_Cavan

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

One way, what would be the travel time on rail between Tuam and athenry?

I don't know, I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will fill us in. Hard to see less than 50 mins between departures from Tuam allowing for journey time both ways and time at stations. Would be interesting to see, if the first service from Tuam arrived in Athenry to connect with a train to Galway, what would be the wait time for the next service for the next Galway train. With buses, there could be multiple in operation hitting every connection and giving greater flexibility to commuters.

Greaney

eastwest wrote: »

I'll tell you what's bizarre.
A TD who is deeply embedded in WOT agrees to support a minority government on one condition (apart from a good slice of extra money for himself), that he gets a review of the wrc within six months.
He could have got almost anything for his constituency, but he chose instead to devote all.his political capital towards getting this report done.
Six months came and went, and no report, yet he never threatened to pull the plug. Had he realised at that stage that there was never a chance of getting the railway? Had he found out that reality is a different thing from campaign promises?
When he finally got the report, he allowed his ministerial colleague to suppress it. He didn't at any time publicly ask for the report. Of the approximately twenty TDs who sought the report under PQs, our hero wasn't one of them.
Just consider that for a minute. Twenty TDs asked to see the rail report, formally and on the record of the Dail. Yet the man who had staked his political credibility on this same report, the man who caused half a million euro of our money to be spent on it, never opened his mouth.
Now that's bizarre. It's GUBU.

I think you have forgotten

Sean Canney (Tuam) topped the poll in the election
Louis O' Hara (Athenry) got the second highest first preferences after him.

I don't believe any smart politician or political strategist has forgotten that.
We may have another election sooner than you think

Their numbers are much more than those that marched in Tuam. Much much more....

Del.Monte

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

One way, what would be the travel time on rail between Tuam and athenry?

Back in the 1960s it could be done in 25 mins with a request stop at Ballyglunin which is, of course, how the existing WRC should be operated i.e request stops at Sixmilebridge, Ardrahan and Craughwell. However, when you have inept politicians and CIE, a company with no vision except the lump for workers and golden handshakes for the higher echelons, you get the current mess. :rolleyes:

ShaneC1600

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Sigh, refuting your lies, fallacies and makey-upey stories is getting to be a near daily occurrence

Ah well, keeps me occupied



700 average daily users or to express it another way, about 3 weeks worth of trains in a single day

Am I right that the section them numbers are recorded is between the level crossing and the Spar shop?

If it is them numbers are kinda false in a way as the children use that to get to the secondary school, all 300m of the greenway. Also they use the same 300m to get to the sports fields and track. To measure the true numbers using the greenway the counter should be Moate side of the Spar shop. The numbers using the greenway from Athlone to Mullingar or even Moate is not as impressive a headline figure!!

Greaney

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Am I right that the section them numbers are recorded is between the level crossing and the Spar shop?

If it is them numbers are kinda false in a way as the children use that to get to the secondary school, all 300m of the greenway. Also they use the same 300m to get to the sports fields and track. To measure the true numbers using the greenway the counter should be Moate side of the Spar shop. The numbers using the greenway from Athlone to Mullingar or even Moate is not as impressive a headline figure!!

Westport and Waterford greenways are always held up as the result of building a greenway anywhere in the country. Feedback from the Athlone to Mullingar greenway is, it's a terrific local amenity.... a bit expensive for a local amenity mind...

ShaneC1600

Greaney wrote: »

Westport and Waterford greenways are always held up as the result of building a greenway anywhere in the country. Feedback from the Athlone to Mullingar greenway is, it's a terrific local amenity.... a bit expensive for a local amenity mind...

Problem is when the WRC opened and the numbers were poor (unsurprisingly in a recession) at the beginning the greenway crew were quick to jump on the waste of money, same could easily happen to the greenway if all coffee shops and hotels are not flying year round but nobody will be held accountable but I guess we will have a nice walkway!

Muckyboots

Greaney wrote: »

Westport and Waterford greenways are always held up as the result of building a greenway anywhere in the country. Feedback from the Athlone to Mullingar greenway is, it's a terrific local amenity.... a bit expensive for a local amenity mind...

Pot calling the kettle black. It's not a business - it's a service etc etc.

Pete_Cavan

Del.Monte wrote: »

Back in the 1960s it could be done in 25 mins with a request stop at Ballyglunin which is, of course, how the existing WRC should be operated i.e request stops at Sixmilebridge, Ardrahan and Craughwell. However, when you have inept politicians and CIE, a company with no vision except the lump for workers and golden handshakes for the higher echelons, you get the current mess. :rolleyes:

So €50m for an hourly service + then ongoing operational costs. In no way is that cost justifiable. Double the service could be provided by bus at 10% of the cost including operating costs.

The politicians and CIE have no intention of delivering the railway but paying lip service to it is an easy way of fooling fantasist into voting for you. Suits both to believe the lie than face reality.

Muckyboots

Greaney wrote: »

Sean Canney (Tuam) topped the poll in the election
.

As long as Sean Canney's name is on the ballot paper, he'll top the poll in East Galway. Anyone who tries to use his performance as a yardstick for either rail or greenway doesn't understand local politics. I think we agree on that one.

intellectual dosser

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

So €50m for an hourly service + then ongoing operational costs. In no way is that cost justifiable. Double the service could be provided by bus at 10% of the cost including operating costs.

There are many reasons I disagree with you, but can I ask if thats your belief then is rail justifiable anywhere? If buses are cheaper to put in place and run then why do we have rail anywhere in Ireland?

Isambard

intellectual dosser wrote: »

There are many reasons I disagree with you, but can I ask if thats your belief then is rail justifiable anywhere? If buses are cheaper to put in place and run then why do we have rail anywhere in Ireland?

well often rail would be quicker but add a slow train to an expensive service gives bus the edge.

donvito99

intellectual dosser wrote: »

There are many reasons I disagree with you, but can I ask if thats your belief then is rail justifiable anywhere? If buses are cheaper to put in place and run then why do we have rail anywhere in Ireland?

Despite the efforts of some here, I don't think anyone here is against rail.

As far as I see it, rail is required where demand outstrips what a bus/lorry can efficiently serve, so large amounts of people or goods.

Greaney

Muckyboots wrote: »

Pot calling the kettle black. It's not a business - it's a service etc etc.

A Greenway is refered to as a 'Toursim Product' according to the first sentence regarding policy on the matter in gov.ie

Pete_Cavan

intellectual dosser wrote: »

There are many reasons I disagree with you, but can I ask if thats your belief then is rail justifiable anywhere? If buses are cheaper to put in place and run then why do we have rail anywhere in Ireland?

Of course. Existing operating rail services are not comparable to rebuilding lines abandoned more than half a century ago at enormous capital cost and subsequent operating cost ( almost certainly a loss) when the infrastructure exists for a superior level of bus service at low operating cost.

It's interesting that the pro-rail side what to extend the conversation to include all rail, while at the same time they are telling us that the experience of other greenways can't be applied here. A report into the relative costs and benefits of rail and greenway on this line would be great and a definitive answer as to which is most economically beneficial could be provided. The taxpayer has already paid for a report on the rail operation but we are being denied access to it for some unknown reason.

Sam Russell

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

One way, what would be the travel time on rail between Tuam and athenry?

Ennis to Athenry is about 50 min running time and is approx twice the distance. So at a guess, a 30 min running time could be expected. Frequency is more complicated.

Whether that could be integrated into the current heavy demands of passenger wanting to travel the route from Tuam to Athenry has yet to be determined. How many would want to go on to Galway, Ballinasloe and onward to Heuston, or to Ennis and onwards to Cork?

Hard to know what the traffic pattern would be. The Ennis to Athenry was averaging 8 passengers per train for the first few years according to Colm McCarthy. Are they any new figures for that portion of the route, and their intended final destination?

Would a simple shuttle service suffice?

The Ballybrophy line is under threat and that is already built.

Sligo eye

Sam Russell wrote: »

Ennis to Athenry is about 50 min running time and is approx twice the distance. So at a guess, a 30 min running time could be expected. Frequency is more complicated.

Whether that could be integrated into the current heavy demands of passenger wanting to travel the route from Tuam to Athenry has yet to be determined. How many would want to go on to Galway, Ballinasloe and onward to Heuston, or to Ennis and onwards to Cork?

Hard to know what the traffic pattern would be. The Ennis to Athenry was averaging 8 passengers per train for the first few years according to Colm McCarthy. Are they any new figures for that portion of the route, and their intended final destination?

Would a simple shuttle service suffice?

The Ballybrophy line is under threat and that is already built.

Are there any new figures for the route? This has been discussed extensively on the thread, but for your benefit have a read of this:

https://t.co/BTqDeyubMx


And as to Colm McCarthy being quoted as a source on railways, well it’s a bit like getting Pontius Pilate to write a character reference for Jesus.

Sam Russell

Sligo eye wrote: »

Colm McCarthy being quoted as a source on railways, it’s a bit like getting Pontius Pilate to write a character reference for Jesus.

Well, yes. But the figure quoted needs a modern version which is not published. Figures published are for any traffic on the line from Ennis to Galway, which includes Oranmore to Galway which has nothing to do with Ennis to Athenry.

What would be useful is the numbers of passengers getting on and off at each stop from Ennis to Athenry over, say, a typical week.

ezstreet5

Muckyboots wrote: »

As long as Sean Canney's name is on the ballot paper, he'll top the poll in East Galway. Anyone who tries to use his performance as a yardstick for either rail or greenway doesn't understand local politics. I think we agree on that one.

It shows that the greenway campaign's attempts to defame the man and oust him from his position were unsuccessful. And if the majority of East Galway constituents favour a greenway instead of a railway, it shows that we were not the one-issue voters hoped for by the campaign (or that our one issue was not this one).

eastwest

donvito99 wrote: »

Despite the efforts of some here, I don't think anyone here is against rail.

As far as I see it, rail is required where demand outstrips what a bus/lorry can efficiently serve, so large amounts of people or goods.

Apparently, if you support the use of railways that will never be opened as greenways, that makes you anti-rail.
Don't ask me to explain it, I have no idea.

Del.Monte

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, yes. But the figure quoted needs a modern version which is not published. Figures published are for any traffic on the line from Ennis to Galway, which includes Oranmore to Galway which has nothing to do with Ennis to Athenry.

What would be useful is the numbers of passengers getting on and off at each stop from Ennis to Athenry over, say, a typical week.

How much "serious" marketing of the existing WRC is carried out by CIE - I have a fairly shrewd idea that it's much the same as for other threatened routes such as Arklow/Rosslare, Waterford/Limerick Junction. Zilch, nada, **** all - unless you know something that I don't. The company can't even produce a printed all lines inter-city timetable for sale to the public and there's no need to give the standard answer that everybody has a smart phone.

donvito99

Del.Monte wrote: »

How much "serious" marketing of the existing WRC is carried out by CIE - I have a fairly shrewd idea that it's much the same as for other threatened routes such as Arklow/Rosslare, Waterford/Limerick Junction. Zilch, nada, **** all - unless you know something that I don't. The company can't even produce a printed all lines inter-city timetable for sale to the public and there's no need to give the standard answer that everybody has a smart phone.

Surely the WRC shouldn't actually require 'marketing' - glossy campaigns and promotional fares - if it was actually a useful service?

Sam Russell

Del.Monte wrote: »

How much "serious" marketing of the existing WRC is carried out by CIE -

Well,if one were to believe the proponents for the Tuam Athenry line, there is huge demand so no marketing would be needed.

Of course, that is unlikely as the population just is not there to even pay for the marketing let alone the train line.

On the other hand, a Luas from Claregalway to Galway linking to an East West Luas would be jammed with or without marketing.

PeadarCo

intellectual dosser wrote: »

There are many reasons I disagree with you, but can I ask if thats your belief then is rail justifiable anywhere? If buses are cheaper to put in place and run then why do we have rail anywhere in Ireland?

Buses are cheaper than rail but don't have the capacity. In densely populated areas you have issues with limited road space and high demand
A good example of this is Dublin where Urban rail is oversubscribed. Both the Dart and Luas are heavily used at normal rush hour. Its also the reason why there has been a push for an underground to get around lack of space on the surface of Dublin City centre.

On inter urban routes high speed rail competes not with slow buses but with airplanes over short to medium distances between dense urban areas. Hence why you see high speed rail in operation in places like Japan, France, Germany, East Coast of the US etc. All areas that have large dense population centres located relatively close together. In Ireland Dublin is the only place that comes close to the places like that. There is a reason why Dublin has the most developed rail infrastructure in the country as limited as it is.

Your question indicates a lack of understanding of the benefits and costs associated with Bus and Rail. There is no perfect transport system. Different areas require different modes. A rural area with a low population density even for Ireland(look at the densities of heavily used rail services for comparison) does not require a rail service. There are far cheaper alternatives to provide the equivalent service. The money saved can then be used for Rail upgrades that are required ie Dublin underground, Navan to Dublin rail link, Dublin Airport rail link, Dublin to Cork upgrades etc.

Greaney

Greaney wrote: »

A Greenway is refered to as a 'Toursim Product' according to the first sentence regarding policy on the matter in gov.ie

Jesus wept you are bad at this lol

What it actually states on that linked page is

The Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport recognises the benefits that can arise from the further development of Greenways in Ireland, as a tourism product with significant potential to attract overseas visitors, for local communities in terms of economic benefits, and for all users as an amenity for physical activity and a contributor to health and wellbeing.

In addition, as per the Strategy for the FutureDevelopment of National and Regional Greenways released in 2018:

The success of the recently opened Waterford Greenway and the Great Western Greenway in Mayo, opened in 2010, clearly demonstrates the potential of Greenways as economic contributors to rural communities through increased tourism. In addition, the benefits for the health and wellbeing of local communities through the use of Greenways as recreational amenities are significant. The experience from Waterford, Westmeath and Mayo has been extremely positive and there has been a transformative effect on many small towns along and adjacent to those Greenways. It is very evident that the State’s investment in Greenways has delivered a significant boost for these locations.

I'd like to thank you for the opportunity to highlight further, the benefits of Greenways.

ShaneC1600

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well,if one wre to believe the proponents fr the Tuam Athenry line, there is huge demand so no marketing would be needed.

Of course, that is unlikely as the population just is not there to even pay for the marketing let alone the train line.

On the other hand, a Luas from Claregalway to Galway lining to an East West Luas would be jammed with or without marketing.

It's getting better and better. You think linking claregalway with the city with a 40mph tram is good value for money where claregalway has a population of just over 1000? At least the WRC will actually connect the entire northwest to the city of Galway.

donvito99

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

At least the WRC will actually connect the entire northwest to the city of Galway.

That's a stretch. The WRC only connect the bits of the west that lie next to a station on the railway.

Sam Russell

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

It's getting better and better. You think linking claregalway with the city with a 40mph tram is good value for money where claregalway has a population of just over 1000? At least the WRC will actually connect the entire northwest to the city of Galway.

THE luas would also require a P&R to be viable. The fact Claregalway is a traffic black spot would suggest that there would be demand, while Ballyglunin has no such problem.

monument

Sligo eye wrote: »

Keeps you occupied? I suggest you find a more rewarding hobby.

You've had enough warnings lately, try a ban now.

-- moderator

ShaneC1600

Sam Russell wrote: »

THE luas would also require a P&R to be viable. The fact Claregalway is a traffic black spot would suggest that there would be demand, while Ballyglunin has no such problem.

And bringing everyone into claregalway will sort the traffic? How will that work? Into a slow luas where majority of the traffic is passing Tuam or Ballyglunin on the way to claregalway.

Lord Glentoran

Deleted User wrote: »

Sigh, refuting your lies, fallacies and makey-upey stories is getting to be a near daily occurrence

Ah well, keeps me occupied

Where did Greaney lie? I find them one of the least hyperbolic posters here but clearly YMMV.

ShaneC1600

donvito99 wrote: »

That's a stretch. The WRC only connect the bits of the west that lie next to a station on the railway.

Well in fairness there isnt a bus stop at every house either so having a network of stations located throughout the northwest that are connected by rail linking the stations to Galway, Limerick, Dublin and maybe even the lucky stations along the route!
But only if the design and trains provide a proper service and proper money is spent on providing same.

ezstreet5

Muckyboots wrote: »

You've had some choice words for Minister Cannon yourself on this thread and thrown some pretty reckless and baseless aqusations in relation to Velo. At least the people who campaigned against Sean Canney didn't hide behind anonymity, even if was a bit over the top for some people's sensitivities.

I said nothing defamatory against Cannon; it is all honest opinion. It is not untrue that Cannon called for the abandonment of the Athlone to Galway greenway in 2015 after meeting with landowners. And it is my honest opinion that his promise of "No CPOs" was reckless and set progress back on this segment by years. And yes, I have a degree of residual anger over what I consider to be a political failure and missed opportunity.

And I find it bizarre that Cannon is now claiming "mission accomplished" in posts on social and mainstream media over a singular reference to the QMG in the new RSES, while at the same time having little-to-no enthusiasm for EV2, which is included by name in the Programme for Government. We all know that the RSES seems internally conflicted with regard to the future of the WRC, and we're all trying to resolve that in our own minds. After reading both Cannon's and WOT's summaries, WOT's seems closer to what's actually in the document (but not 100% accurate either). And using Cannon's logic, if the QMG's inclusion in the RSES makes it "a certainty," then isn't railway reactivation also a certainty?

I don't dislike either Cannon or Canney personally. The former blocked me on FB many years ago because I was openly critical of his inaction on another issue. He's very good at controlling the narrative, and dissenting opinions are quickly deleted and the poster is blocked.

Finally, those campaigning against Canney are definitely hiding behind a veil of anonymity. There is the public campaign on the QMG FB page, and then there is the defamatory and perverted campaign on the West-on-Crack FB page, which no one will own up to.

Muckyboots

ezstreet5 wrote: »

Finally, those campaigning against Canney are definitely hiding behind a veil of anonymity. There is the public campaign on the QMG FB page, and then there is the defamatory and perverted campaign on the West-on-Crack FB page, which no one will own up to.

If this is what you were talking about, I agree and it should be taken down.