Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

Lord Glentoran

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I said nothing defamatory against Cannon; it is all honest opinion. It is not untrue that Cannon called for the abandonment of the Athlone to Galway greenway in 2015 after meeting with landowners. And it is my honest opinion that his promise of "No CPOs" was reckless and set progress back on this segment by years. And yes, I have a degree of residual anger over what I consider to be a political failure and missed opportunity.

And I find it bizarre that Cannon is now claiming "mission accomplished" in posts on social and mainstream media over a singular reference to the QMG in the new RSES, while at the same time having little-to-no enthusiasm for EV2, which is included by name in the Programme for Government. We all know that the RSES seems internally conflicted with regard to the future of the WRC, and we're all trying to resolve that in our own minds. After reading both Cannon's and WOT's summaries, WOT's seems closer to what's actually in the document (but not 100% accurate either). And using Cannon's logic, if the QMG's inclusion in the RSES makes it "a certainty," then isn't railway reactivation also a certainty?

I don't dislike either Cannon or Canney personally. The former blocked me on FB many years ago because I was openly critical of his inaction on another issue. He's very good at controlling the narrative, and dissenting opinions are quickly deleted and the poster is blocked.

Finally, those campaigning against Canney are definitely hiding behind a veil of anonymity. There is the public campaign on the QMG FB page, and then there is the defamatory and perverted campaign on the West-on-Crack FB page, which no one will own up to.

In my view the whole tone is meant to be intimidatory, in order to push dissenting opinion away and control the narrative.

Lord Glentoran

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

In my view the whole tone is meant to be intimidatory, in order to push dissenting opinion away and control the narrative.

Meanwhile, West-on-crack kicks a hole in the floor and goes even lower.

[I think we can do without that image from West-on-crack -- people can find them if they want -- mod]

Greaney

Yes, I've seen that page, creepy, and weirdly unfunny... like the person who made it is the only person in on the joke... lots of sleazy pictures of middle aged men in ladies underwear??!"£$%^&????

Muckyboots

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Meanwhile, West-on-crack kicks a hole in the floor and goes even lower.

That's disgraceful and anyone who trys to defend it, or justify it, needs to look for a new moral compass.

Muckyboots

Muckyboots wrote: »

That's disgraceful and anyone who trys to defend it, or justify it, needs to look for a new moral compass.

Couldn't agree more but it's been rumoured in the past that it's actually run by a wot advocate in an effort to bring disrepute to the greenway campaign.

It's silly though, it brings nothing to the debate and should be shutdown

Greaney

Deleted User wrote: »

Couldn't agree more but it's been rumoured in the past that it's actually run by a wot advocate in an effort to bring disrepute to the greenway campaign.

It's silly though, it brings nothing to the debate and should be shutdown

It's not a West on Track page. The folk who seem to be following it are pro-greenway

When the page was brought to my attention, I was wondering 'who on earth looks at this' and as I scrolled down I recognized a face.... They were on an earlier committee of The Quietman Greenway, and 'liked' a lot of the posts, commenting on one. It's a Greenway page alas.

The success of a campaign relies on the caliber of it's leaders. It's a bitter lesson I had to learn in the past myself.

Lord Glentoran

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Couldn't agree more but it's been rumoured in the past that it's actually run by a wot advocate in an effort to bring disrepute to the greenway campaign.

That’s a pretty shoddy accusation to make.

Edit -

Curiously - on 14 August 2019 the Sligo Mayo Greenway page posts up a link to it on their page and the text is as follows:

always worth a peak at this satirical page which focuses on Con Manny modeled on guess who?

Screenshotted for posterity etc.

westtip

Anyway aside from all these accusations one way or another and btw that page is not me, yes I have seen it, whatever, it seems to be satirical but a below the belt stuff. However a Facebook page be it West on Track, SMG or indeed QMG is unlikely to be the reason for any government decision, a tiny amount of the general population actually see this stuff.

Like many of us even I am getting very bored with all this.

So let me ask all the WRC supporters a few perfectly civilized debating points:

What exactly are the benefits of a railway between Claremorris and Athenry?

Why should this project be prioritized over other national projects - examples please with rational arguments?

Why does it have to go on the route of the closed railway the road lobby always goes for new routes, what is different about this?

How much will it cost to rebuild and how much subvention will it require and can you justify these costs in a national context?

How would you feel if the Rail Report does not recommend it, would you be prepared to accept its findings?

Any other thoughts. I just want to sit back and hear your rationale again to clear the air, because I haven't seen the spell binding argument yet.

Give you a couple of weeks can we hear the arguments again please. I suggest Greenway supporters step back and let's hear what they have to say.

Geuze

westtip wrote: »

Like many of us even I am getting very bored with all this.

So let me ask all the WRC supporters a few perfectly civilized debating points:

What exactly are the benefits of a railway between Claremorris and Athenry?

Why should this project be prioritized over other national projects - examples please with rational arguments?

Why does it have to go on the route of the closed railway the road lobby always goes for new routes, what is different about this?

How much will it cost to rebuild and how much subvention will it require and can you justify these costs in a national context?

I consider myself a supporter of public transit.

The re-opening to Claremorris should not be prioritized over other national projects, like:

Railway to airport
Railway to Navan
200kph electrification on mainline to Belfast and Cork
DART interconnector
Improved Cork-Limerick connections
New tram lines in Dublin and Cork
New services on Limerick railway lines
BusConnects

I don't have any CBA or NPV data to hand, but I presume many/all of these projects have superior NPV than the WRC to Claremorris?


I support large capital investment into public transport (1 bn + pa) and modal shift, combined with road pricing, carbon taxes, and regional development.

So I would not abandon the WRC project, and I would keep the WRC re-opening on the list of projects.

Maybe a phased re-opening?

(1) re-double GY-Athenry, prepare for electrification
(2) new stations at Roscam and ??
(3) make Craughwell and Ardrahan resuest-stops, increase speeds/timings to Limerick


I presume using the original route, with modifications, would be vastly cheaper than a new route??

Lord Glentoran

westtip wrote: »

Anyway aside from all these accusations one way or another and btw that page is not me, yes I have seen it, whatever, it seems to be satirical but a below the belt stuff. However a Facebook page be it West on Track, SMG or indeed QMG is unlikely to be the reason for any government decision, a tiny amount of the general population actually see this stuff.

Like many of us even I am getting very bored with all this.

So let me ask all the WRC supporters a few perfectly civilized debating points:

What exactly are the benefits of a railway between Claremorris and Athenry?

Why should this project be prioritized over other national projects - examples please with rational arguments?

Why does it have to go on the route of the closed railway the road lobby always goes for new routes, what is different about this?

How much will it cost to rebuild and how much subvention will it require and can you justify these costs in a national context?

How would you feel if the Rail Report does not recommend it, would you be prepared to accept its findings?

Any other thoughts. I just want to sit back and hear your rationale again to clear the air, because I haven't seen the spell binding argument yet.

Give you a couple of weeks can we hear the arguments again please. I suggest Greenway supporters step back and let's hear what they have to say.

If we’re going to be called liars in thread and without any apparent sanction (in fairness not by you) what’s the point?

I also see Sligo Eye is gone. ‘nuff said, as the late great Stan Lee used to say.

westtip

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

If we’re going to be called liars in thread and without any apparent sanction (in fairness not by you) what’s the point?

I also see Sligo Eye is gone. ‘nuff said, as the late great Stan Lee used to say.

Pity LG and thank you it's not my intention to call anyone a liar, yes there has been emotional stuff on this thread, but just seeing if we can come back to the base arguments again, hence my list of questions because like any of us simply saying "Its a good idea" - and that applies to both camps will not win an argument. I am sure Sligo Eye will be back, sure we have all had bans before including me, wear that badge with pride and then moderate behaviour, writing posts late at night with a couple of scoops inside one is not recommended btw for anyone.

Del.Monte

westtip wrote: »

Pity LG and thank you it's not my intention to call anyone a liar, yes there has been emotional stuff on this thread, but just seeing if we can come back to the base arguments again, hence my list of questions because like any of us simply saying "Its a good idea" - and that applies to both camps will not win an argument. I am sure Sligo Eye will be back, sure we have all had bans before including me, wear that badge with pride and then moderate behaviour, writing posts late at night with a couple of scoops inside one is not recommended btw for anyone.

Surely ginger beer is okay?

intellectual dosser

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Of course. Existing operating rail services are not comparable to rebuilding lines abandoned more than half a century ago at enormous capital cost and subsequent operating cost ( almost certainly a loss) when the infrastructure exists for a superior level of bus service at low operating cost.

It's interesting that the pro-rail side what to extend the conversation to include all rail, while at the same time they are telling us that the experience of other greenways can't be applied here. A report into the relative costs and benefits of rail and greenway on this line would be great and a definitive answer as to which is most economically beneficial could be provided. The taxpayer has already paid for a report on the rail operation but we are being denied access to it for some unknown reason.

I wasn't trying to create different goalposts for either side of the debate here. What I was getting at is that bus and rail satisfy different requirements and use cases.

Commuters, students etc can get a bus but it won't attract users with mobility issues, I can't see myself taking the kids into town on a bus from Milltown etc. I am open to correction but I've never seen a park and ride uptake in a bus service as you have with rail (in a public transport capacity, people are not going to drive to Ballyglunin to then get a bus).

You might take issue with some of those arguments but in summary the bus and train are not like for like. While drilling down into the bus dicussion it shouldnt be forgotten that WRC would provide more than just a local commuter service for Galway City.

intellectual dosser

westtip wrote: »

Anyway aside from all these accusations one way or another and btw that page is not me, yes I have seen it, whatever, it seems to be satirical but a below the belt stuff. However a Facebook page be it West on Track, SMG or indeed QMG is unlikely to be the reason for any government decision, a tiny amount of the general population actually see this stuff.

Like many of us even I am getting very bored with all this.

So let me ask all the WRC supporters a few perfectly civilized debating points:

What exactly are the benefits of a railway between Claremorris and Athenry?

Why should this project be prioritized over other national projects - examples please with rational arguments?

Why does it have to go on the route of the closed railway the road lobby always goes for new routes, what is different about this?

How much will it cost to rebuild and how much subvention will it require and can you justify these costs in a national context?

How would you feel if the Rail Report does not recommend it, would you be prepared to accept its findings?

Any other thoughts. I just want to sit back and hear your rationale again to clear the air, because I haven't seen the spell binding argument yet.

Give you a couple of weeks can we hear the arguments again please. I suggest Greenway supporters step back and let's hear what they have to say.

If you're going to give us homework westtip you should give it to all, on both sides of the discussion

Lord Glentoran

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

If we’re going to be called liars in thread and without any apparent sanction (in fairness not by you) what’s the point?

I'm assuming you are referring to my post directed at Greaney

It was in reference to her statement regarding the Ballyglunin facebook page

However, upon reflection, I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and retract "lies" and replace with misinformed, should that please the court

fyi, if you have any issues with anything I post, there is a "Report" button

westtip

intellectual dosser wrote: »

If you're going to give us homework westtip you should give it to all, on both sides of the discussion

Let's just get the debate back on an even keel, yes the greenway advocates should set out the argument again, but the railway boys were in truth here first, it doesn't mean coming up with an idea first means it is right. But let's hear the rail arguments backed up by some facts and figures. I am always prepared to listen to an argument and I know some rail supporters who have listened and changed views, Marian Harkin for one, she gave me short shrift back in 2012 but look at her view now. Lets' get away from the back biting and hear the arguments for rail again, I have lost sight on the reasoned rationale for the railway....perhaps the railway supporters have too.

Lord Glentoran

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm assuming you are referring to my post directed at Greaney

It was in reference to her statement regarding the Ballyglunin facebook page

However, upon reflection, I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and retract "lies" and replace with misinformed, should that please the court

fyi, if you have any issues with anything I post, there is a "Report" button

As it happens, I did report it but I don’t want to get drawn into a conversation about moderation on thread, thanks.

donvito99

intellectual dosser wrote: »

Commuters, students etc can get a bus but it won't attract users with mobility issues, I can't see myself taking the kids into town on a bus from Milltown etc.

If people in Dublin have managed to bring kids into and out of town for decades on various types of low floor and non low floor buses, and if the disabled have been able to do same on low floor buses, I do not see why people living along the WRC would not also be able to also take the bus.

If anything, it would be easier as buses are less likely to be jam packed? And a bus can effectively serve people with disabilities more conveniently i.e. it is more likely that a bus stop will be closer to your house and drop you off closer to your destination, that's an inherent advantage of a bus.

I am open to correction but I've never seen a park and ride uptake in a bus service as you have with rail (in a public transport capacity, people are not going to drive to Ballyglunin to then get a bus).

I don't think there has ever been a decent application of bus based park & ride in the country though. For instance, people driving to Dublin Airport don't abandon their trips because the transport from the long term car parks to the terminals involve a bus.

If the service is quick, reliable and brings people from where they are to where they are going conveniently, it doesn't matter if it is bus based. People may enjoy the ride quality of the train or the ability to walk up and down it when its not busy, but that isn't driving people to move to public transport in my view.

Greaney

I was very wary about answering this....

I'm a cycling advocate and subscribe to the standard policy of most cycling advocacy groups. That is first and foremost about 'everyday forms of transport'.

Transport policy should be based on the Hierarchy of Road Users, which prescribes the following order of priority:
People who walk
People on bicycles
Public transport users
Private motor vehicles

westtip wrote: »

What exactly are the benefits of a railway between Claremorris and Athenry?

1) It's part of a greater rail network so it cannot be looked at in isolation. In the fullness of time it will link Limerick to Sligo, or if we were ambitious, Cork to Donegal and Derry...
2) When the Western rail corridor is fully built it will turn three stations on it's route, Collooney, Claremorris & Athenry into major junctions.
3) It will offer an alternative to the car for commuting.
4) It will lead to a reduction in car use and even ownership along the route
5) This is an issue close to my heart.... it will allow for independent travel for the disabled along it's route. Tuam is the office for East Galways branch of the Irish Wheel chair association. For far too long the disabled have not had their voice listened to on this issue. Please check out the interview with the late Ronnie Conlon, and advocate for independent living in this Eco Eye interview. His interview starts at 3:00

westtip wrote: »

Why should this project be prioritized over other national projects - examples please with rational arguments?

My view is similar to these.
Colm Mc Carthys

The National Bus & Rail Union

westtip wrote: »

Why does it have to go on the route of the closed railway the road lobby always goes for new routes, what is different about this?

1) CIE own it
2) It was the planned route to re-open in 2011
3) The road lobby is treated very differently to rail or cycling, we can see that from the way the Eurovelo through East Galway has been treated v the Gort to Tuam motorway. I have no doubt a brand new alternative rail route would be a lot more difficult and expensive to build.

westtip wrote: »

How much will it cost to rebuild and how much subvention will it require and can you justify these costs in a national context?

Motorway, Gort to Tuam, 53.2km €550 million
Rail Ennis to Athenry, 58km, €106 million

I'm not qualified to do the calculations on the subvention, but motorways need maintenance too.... and at least the rail users are paying directly to use it, there's no toll on the Gort to Tuam motorway.

westtip wrote: »

How would you feel if the Rail Report does not recommend it, would you be prepared to accept its findings?

I might feel the same way I felt when the sugar beet factory in Carlow closed, with the hindsight that it should have been kept open... I'd view it rather like the Deloitte Report

Isambard

can I point out that Limerick and Sligo are already linked by rail as are Cork and Derry

What advantage does the WRC route have over these routes?

donvito99

Greaney wrote: »

My view is similar to these.


The National Bus & Rail Union

This was a fairly flimsy attempt at frustrating the transport planners by the NBRU so as to promote their union member's interests, not those of passengers or potential public transport users. I sincerely hope that this does not represent your actual views.

Greaney

Isambard wrote: »

can I point out that Limerick and Sligo are already linked by rail as are Cork and Derry

Might want to bring a sleeping bag and a number of meals and running shoes for that

#obtuse

Isambard

Greaney wrote: »

Might want to bring a sleeping bag and a number of meals and running shoes for that

same goes for the WRC.

There is nothing of any size between Athenry and Sligo that justifies hundreds of millions of expenditure. Improve the existing lines to make the journey easier and quicker would cost less and be of far more benefit.

Greaney

donvito99 wrote: »

If people in Dublin have managed to bring kids into and out of town for decades on various types of low floor and non low floor buses, and if the disabled have been able to do same on low floor buses, I do not see why people living along the WRC would not also be able to also take the bus.

This is a real 'let them eat cake' comment, like many I've seen before. I've never been on a bus that had disabled access toilets. The Western Rail Corridor isn't just for 15 min journeys.

Public transport should be encouraged to be used, over and above the car where possible, this is fundamental to active travel policy and philosophy

Lord Glentoran

Isambard wrote: »

same goes for the WRC.

There is nothing of any size between Athenry and Sligo that justifies hundreds of millions of expenditure. Improve the existing lines to make the journey easier and quicker would cost less and be of far more benefit.

Fastest bus Sligo to Limerick 5hrs 24mins. And most of it is motorway.

Train takes 12 hours but I’m sure self driving electric cars will beat a hyper loop by 2095 or later.

Or we can use existing infrastructure owned by the taxpayer and develop the rail service and plan for increasing population.

Or we can do nothing and wonder why in twenty years dispersed development and car dependence concentrate what prosperity we have around Dublin only.

donvito99

Greaney wrote: »

This is a real 'let them eat cake' comment, like many I've seen before. I've never been on a bus that had disabled access toilets. The Western Rail Corridor isn't just for 15 min journeys.

What's the scenario here? A PWD going from Sligo to Limerick? Given that the WRC from Limerick to Galway is slower than the intercity bus service, doesn't it stand to reason that a PWD is less likely to need to use a bathroom en route if they spend less time getting there?

I don't think there is any public transport mode meeting the requirements of all people with disabilities. I don't believe anyone here would seriously argue that public transport infrastructure should be contingent on the basis of its partial inconvenience to people with disabilities, otherwise Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann, Luas, DART and the airlines would have to cease operations in the morning.

Greaney

donvito99 wrote: »

What's the scenario here? A PWD going from Sligo to Limerick? Given that the WRC from Limerick to Galway is slower than the intercity bus service, doesn't it stand to reason that a PWD is less likely to need to use a bathroom en route if they spend less time getting there?

I don't think there is any public transport mode meeting the requirements of all people with disabilities. I don't believe anyone here would seriously argue that public transport infrastructure should be contingent on the basis of its partial inconvenience to people with disabilities, otherwise Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann, Luas, DART and the airlines would have to cease operations in the morning.

I had to look up what PWD meant!!!! I'm a carer for my family member with both mobility issues and acquired brain injury (which left them with severe epilepsy and unable to drive anymore). The train is a lifeline to her. She finds the bus difficult to use due to the fact their coaches with high steps etc. In fact rail meets the needs of the disabled more than most other transport forms. Crikey, to be reduced to a bloody Acronym!!!

The terms you've used there speaks volumes about the contempt many in this country have towards the most vulnerable people who don't or cannot drive. :mad:

ezstreet5

Greaney wrote: »

I had to look up what PWD meant!!!! I'm a carer for my family member with both mobility issues and acquired brain injury (which left them with severe epilepsy and unable to drive anymore). The train is a lifeline to her. She finds the bus difficult to use due to the fact their coaches with high steps etc. In fact rail meets the needs of the disabled more than most other transport forms. Crikey, to be reduced to a bloody Acronym!!!

The term you've used there speaks volumes about the contempt many in this country have towards the most vulnerable people who don't or cannot drive. :mad:

If I were a Portuguese Water Dog wanting to go from Sligo to Limerick, I would travel via Eurovelo 1 due to the route's outstanding natural beauty.

Greaney

ezstreet5 wrote: »

If I were a Portuguese Water Dog wanting to go from Sligo to Limerick, I would travel via Eurovelo 1 due to the route's outstanding natural beauty.

I just got that....

I got Print Working Directory when I first googled it.... for crying out loud!!!

Isambard

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Fastest bus Sligo to Limerick 5hrs 24mins. And most of it is motorway.

Train takes 12 hours but I’m sure self driving electric cars will beat a hyper loop by 2095 or later.

Or we can use existing infrastructure owned by the taxpayer and develop the rail service and plan for increasing population.

Or we can do nothing and wonder why in twenty years dispersed development and car dependence concentrate what prosperity we have around Dublin only.

Or you could improve Sligo to Dublin and Cork to Dublin to increase the line speeds to modern standards (particularly the Sligo line) and have a service which actually goes through places with a good sized population.

Sam Russell

Or link the Sligo line to the Galway line, either by reinstating the Mulingar Athlone line, or some other way, preferably west of the Shannon.

[I know Mullingar is not west of the Shannon].

Isambard

Isambard wrote: »

Or you could improve Sligo to Dublin and Cork to Dublin to increase the line speeds to modern standards (particularly the Sligo line) and have a service which actually goes through places with a good sized population.

In a similar way that motorways are done

Lord Glentoran

Deleted User wrote: »

In a similar way that motorways are done

Such methodology applied to motorways, for example, means that extending the M20 to Cork is redundant, as the M8 is linked to the M7.

Lord Glentoran

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

Such methodology applied to motorways, for example, means that extending the M20 to Cork is redundant, as the M8 is linked to the M7.

There are some with that opinion

donvito99

Greaney wrote: »

I had to look up what PWD meant!!!! I'm a carer for my family member with both mobility issues and acquired brain injury (which left them with severe epilepsy and unable to drive anymore). The train is a lifeline to her. She finds the bus difficult to use due to the fact their coaches with high steps etc. In fact rail meets the needs of the disabled more than most other transport forms. Crikey, to be reduced to a bloody Acronym!!!

The terms you've used there speaks volumes about the contempt many in this country have towards the most vulnerable people who don't or cannot drive. :mad:

I was told by a disability advocate and broadcaster that persons with disabilities or PWD was the correct term now in response to my using "the disabled". That's not contempt in my view. But go ahead, lose your head.

I think everyone can appreciate that a train may be convenient for some people including those with certain disabilities e.g mobility disabled. I'd contend that other PWD would be far better served with a more expansive, local, frequent and faster service.... possible with the use of a bus.

Ultimately, public transport does not live and die on this issue and the WRC will not be built on this basis. By allocating resources to the WRC, less PWD in rural Ireland would benefit than if you allocated to a bus system which could serve PWD/able bodied people in communities across the region.

ezstreet5

westtip wrote: »

Anyway aside from all these accusations one way or another and btw that page is not me, yes I have seen it, whatever, it seems to be satirical but a below the belt stuff. However a Facebook page be it West on Track, SMG or indeed QMG is unlikely to be the reason for any government decision, a tiny amount of the general population actually see this stuff.

First, thanks if you helped to get the latest West-on-Crack post deleted. I know you are not the responsible person for that page because it is obvious who is. You might suggest wholesale deletion of the page to 'the author' on the basis that it does not further the QMG cause, and that it may not be the brilliant piece of satire that it is believed to be.

westtip wrote: »

Like many of us even I am getting very bored with all this.

I'm not.

westtip wrote: »

So let me ask all the WRC supporters a few perfectly civilized debating points:
What exactly are the benefits of a railway between Claremorris and Athenry?

I'll accept the 'westtip challenge,' but permit me to limit my responses to Phase 2 only - Tuam to Athenry. That's because the last report I've read on rail reactivation concluded, 'A number of new rail lines have been proposed by various interests. Of these, a sketch appraisal indicates that only the Athenry-Tuam line merits further consideration, taking account of the performance of Phase 1 of the Western Rail corridor between Ennis and Athenry. None of the others perform sufficiently well to be further considered.' That, and all quotes and figures below are from the following report: Iarnród Éireann, 2030 Rail Network Strategy Review, Final Report, AECOM, October 2011.

westtip wrote: »

Why should this project be prioritized over other national projects - examples please with rational arguments?

No one stated that reactivating Tuam to Athenry is the most urgent rail project on the network. But that does not mean it is not a worthwhile project. To provide some further statistics: Tuam to Atherny scored 61 out of 100 in the previous report with regard to reactivation potential, and not 6 out of 100 as An Taoiseach believes, or 8 out of 100 as a local TD repeatedly misquotes (ask for references if you need them).

Tuam is the 56th largest settled area in Ireland, and it's population grew by 6.4% from the 2011 to the 2016 census. Of the 55 more-populated settlements, 44 are served by the rail network (or 80%).

westtip wrote:

Why does it have to go on the route of the closed railway the road lobby always goes for new routes, what is different about this?

For the same reason that the greenway supporters want to take it - cost! As quoted in the prior report, the cost of construction of a new single track (120 kph) railway over agricultural land is €3.5m/km. Whereas, the cost of upgrading an existing single track line to the same speed or better is €1.5m/km. The difference in cost is due to land acquisition and cut and fill (embankment build). So using the existing line saves €2m/km. If you want to electrify it, add €400k/km.

westtip wrote:

How much will it cost to rebuild and how much subvention will it require and can you justify these costs in a national context?

The costs would be:

• Upgrade the line to 160 km/hr for 25 km @ €1.5m/km = €37.5m
• Add electrification (for future-proofing) at €0.4m/km = €10.5m
• Station Enhancement at €5m each (lets include Ballyglunin and Tuam) = €10m
• Rolling Stock (6 cars, 3 DMUs) = €20m
• Total Capital Expenditure €78m
• Operating Costs: €5/km for EMUs

westtip wrote:

How would you feel if the Rail Report does not recommend it, would you be prepared to accept its findings?

I would examine it closely to ensure it properly weighted the issues set forth below.

westtip wrote:

Any other thoughts. I just want to sit back and hear your rationale again to clear the air, because I haven't seen the spell binding argument yet.

Additional thoughts are as follows:

• There are European, National, and Local objectives to mode-shift trips from road to rail, for the purposes of traffic congestion mitigation and GHG reductions.
• There are National objectives for regional development in the west, so that not all development happens in Dublin.
• Galway City has a very real traffic problem, part of which is congestion along the Tuam Road and the N6 terminus at Doughiska. The only remedy for a 'bus solution' is CPOs for bus lane from Claregalway to Eyre Square, which has been suggested, but no costs provided.
• Coordinated rail travel from Tuam to Galway would be faster than bus service during a.m. and p.m. peaks.
• Rail service provides additional connectivity to Tuam other than to only Galway.

westtip wrote:

Give you a couple of weeks can we hear the arguments again please. I suggest Greenway supporters step back and let's hear what they have to say.

We would love a greenway in East Galway, as much as we'd love a railway to Tuam. The best chance is the EuroVelo2 Capitals Route, which would also provide the GP-requested cycling infrastructure from Athenry (or Loghrea) to Galway. A greenway from Tuam to Athenry does not deliver very much with regard day-to-day cycling infrastructure geared for commuters.

When unprotected routes become farmyards

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/551337/attention-needed-for-limerick-s-working-farm-at-coolybrown.html

THE DIRECTORS of the Great Southern Trail Ltd (GST) have discussed the recent announcement by Limerick City and County Council of a €5 million upgrade for the Greenway and wish to draw public attention to the history of the “Coolybrown working farm” element of the “otherwise broadly welcome proposals”.

In a statement, they said the story begins in 2003 with a successful planning application for a 180 square metre slatted unit to be constructed in a Coolybrown farm to the south of the railway.

“The application was revised in 2006 to double the size of the unit and this was also approved. In the interim the adjacent old Limerick to Tralee railway corridor had its right of way protected by the Mid-West Regional Authority for recreational and environmental pursuits in 2004.

“Therefore, in 2007, when another incarnation of the yet unbuilt slatted unit manifested itself in a planning application, Limerick County Council, referencing the Regional Authority guidelines, wrote to the applicant on July 20 that it was “not favourly disposed” to the application and advised that it should be relocated to the northern side of the railway where the bulk of the farmlands and buildings were located. The council requested further information.

“Surprisingly, having received no new information or proposals (only a regurgitation of the previous 2003 and 2006 files received on July 30) the council approved the application on the following day,” said the statement.

These events all pre-dated the 2010 development of the Rathkeale-Ardagh section; all of the works were undertaken by GST.

“It was only then that it came to light that the plans approved three years earlier had not been complied with. The slatted unit was now several metres closer to the railway than the planning permission permitted. In fact the cattle were being fed on the CIÉ railway property.

“The overall result of the CIÉ and council indulgence is that non local users of the Greenway when encountering a narrowing of the railway route and its less than attractive appearance, to their left and to their right, actually believe that they are in a farmyard.

“To compound all of the above the council’s current plan to use public funds and to detour away from the railway for a length of 800 metres is the final capitulation. It is also a recipe for similar demands on sections yet to be developed.

“During the GST twenty-five years of campaigning, developing and managing the Greenway we never entertained requests to deviate from the railway corridor. We viewed it as land held in trust by CIÉ for the people of Ireland. Our hope now is that wiser counsel will prevail with this ill-advised current proposal being further investigated and resolved in the public interest.

“The GST Greenway has the capacity to be a world class facility and of major benefit to locals and visitors alike. The integrity of the entire way without any proposed private diversion is a key element of the facility now and for future generations,” concludes the statement.

In reply, the council said they took ownership of the Greenway route from Rathkeale to the Kerry border in 2015.

“Since then a large amount of work has been completed to bring the route up to the standard of similar Greenways nationally and internationally, with more than €3 million. These works included the Barnagh Tunnel, improved crossing points, fencing, track surfacing, bridges and signage, along with loops around the three market towns of Rathkeale, Newcastle West and Abbeyfeale.

“Just three weeks ago Limerick City and County Council announced a further investment of €5 million for a total upgrade of the surface of the Greenway,” said a spokesperson.

In addition to the €5 million, the council pointed to purchasing the old Ardagh and Barnagh Station Houses.

“With the agreement of CIE and landowners, the council will in the interests of health and safety construct an 800m diversion of the Greenway around a working farmyard at Coolybrown, Ardagh. No further route diversions are planned along the Greenway. The council has commenced design work on the small number of cattle underpasses necessary to facilitate other farm crossings on the route.

“A new re-imagined and enticing Greenway can act as a catalyst for the development of tourism and spin off activities in West Limerick and it is incumbent on everyone now to support the Greenway and support the potential job creation and other economic benefits for the region, especially now in this post-Covid environment which should make the Greenway even more popular,” said the spokesperson.

ezstreet5

The above is a difficult read, but it does raise the important question of adverse possession (squatting) of the permanent way. This concern is closely related to the longstanding 'Railway Order' entitlement process that predates the Irish State.

If a railway is reactivated, CIE may be able to rely on a 'Railway Order,' or 'Railway Works Order', or equivalent, dating from the 19th Century (as they supposedly did for rebuilding WRC Phase 1). But current practice indicates that CIE would probably seek a new Railway Order under the Transport (Railway Infrastructure) Act 2001. This is a sort of 'planning permission' for new railways. It includes authority for the compulsory acquisition of land. So if a rouge landowner successfully applies to the Property Registration Authority for adverse possession, CIE could simply CPO the land back (for a cost).

Muckyboots

Deleted User wrote: »

When unprotected routes become farmyards

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/551337/attention-needed-for-limerick-s-working-farm-at-coolybrown.html

They are not doubting their ability to attract tourists to landscapes and townlands that are practically identical to that of East Gaway and South Sligo. I think we have even more to offer in the line of heritage and culture.

"A new re-imagined and enticing Greenway can act as a catalyst for the development of tourism and spin off activities in West Limerick and it is incumbent on everyone now to support the Greenway and support the potential job creation and other economic benefits for the region, especially now in this post-Covid environment which should make the Greenway even more popular,” said the spokesperson"

ShaneC1600

OMG the QMG has got the green light. They are just making it up as they go now!

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2033632063434863&id=435870759877676&sfnsn=mo

MayoForSam

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

OMG the QMG has got the green light. They are just making it up as they go now!

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2033632063434863&id=435870759877676&sfnsn=mo

Correct, this is fake news (who would rely on Facebook as a reliable news source anyhow?).

I doubt if 'This Is Galway' is affiliated to the QMG campaign however.

ShaneC1600

MayoForSam wrote: »

Correct, this is fake news (who would rely on Facebook as a reliable news source anyhow?).

I doubt if 'This Is Galway' is affiliated to the QMG campaign however.

Its amazing how many people will still be fooled by a headline like this. First story told is story believed!
Anybody know if that bike hire place is open?

Geuze

ezstreet5 wrote: »

For the same reason that the greenway supporters want to take it - cost! As quoted in the prior report, the cost of construction of a new single track (120 kph) railway over agricultural land is €3.5m/km. Whereas, the cost of upgrading an existing single track line to the same speed or better is €1.5m/km. The difference in cost is due to land acquisition and cut and fill (embankment build). So using the existing line saves €2m/km. If you want to electrify it, add €400k/km.
The costs would be:

• Upgrade the line to 160 km/hr for 25 km @ €1.5m/km = €37.5m
• Add electrification (for future-proofing) at €0.4m/km = €10.5m
• Station Enhancement at €5m each (lets include Ballyglunin and Tuam) = €10m
• Rolling Stock (6 cars, 3 DMUs) = €20m
• Total Capital Expenditure €78m
• Operating Costs: €5/km for EMUs

I dip in and out of this discussion, so apologies for the questions:

I see a reference to 120 kph and also to 160 kph above.

Can I clarify is 1.5m per km for upgrade to 160kph correct?

It seems low to me?


Costs to build halts always seem high to me, 5m?

I'd be hoping you'd get two platforms and an overbridge/subway for 5m?


So 58m for the physical infrastructure, ok. More questions:

(2) This would allow trains to pass/cross at three points in Athenry, Ballyglunin/N63 and in Tuam?

(3) Could peak departures/arrivals to/from Tuam every 30 mins be managed?

(4) What might journey time be from Tuam-GY, with three stops? I'd be hoping for 30 mins?

Muckyboots

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Anybody know if that bike hire place is open?

Might be waiting for EU approved Ten-T funding announced by Matt McCarthy, then an MEP....oh wait, sorry that was for a rail line from Derry to Kerry. Ah sure, they are all at it. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Losty Dublin

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

OMG the QMG has got the green light. They are just making it up as they go now!

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2033632063434863&id=435870759877676&sfnsn=mo

Fair play to some cyclists blog and a Google ad led amateur events guide page for breaking a story that everybody else has clearly ignored or not believed. Oddly enough, a more respectable news desk has a far more, dare I say it, pessimistic outlook on things. You'd have to wonder about trained journalists and the neck of them to report on what was actually said

https://galwaybayfm.ie/galway-bay-fm-news-desk/programme-for-government-brings-hope-for-east-galway-greenway-says-cannon/

serfboard

Losty Dublin wrote: »

https://galwaybayfm.ie/galway-bay-fm-news-desk/programme-for-government-brings-hope-for-east-galway-greenway-says-cannon/

"Ciaran Cannon says the programme for government includes a commitment to finance and build the Quiet Man Greenway" is what I would be expecting to read for it to be considered newsworthy.

But, what it actually says is "Ciaran Cannon ... says the programme for government includes a commitment to invest one million euro per day into cycling infrastructure across the country over the government’s lifetime", with absolutely no commitment to any specifc Greenway anywhere at any time.

Geuze

In the context of the debate of where cap exp on PT should be concentrated, I make the following points:

Of course priority should be given to projects with higher CBA / NPV

I note the railway expansion in northeast Bavaria, https://www.bahnausbau-nordostbayern.de/projektueberblick.html

The main province Upper Franconia has a pop of approx 1m, and two other provinces are involved: Middle Franconia and Upper Palatinate (1m approx)

The potential improvements cover 500km+.

I can't find the proposed costs.

whisky_galore

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

OMG the QMG has got the green light. They are just making it up as they go now!

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2033632063434863&id=435870759877676&sfnsn=mo

Puff piece of nonsense. I'm surprised they didn't use the "light at end of tunnel" or "full steam ahead" journo clichés.

Muckyboots

whisky_galore wrote: »

Puff piece of nonsense. I'm surprised they didn't use the "light at end of tunnel" or "full steam ahead" journo clichés.

Next week it might be "New Minister pulls the brake lever on ......way plans" - Insert you favourite object of hate. Jeepers there's only four letters between us.

ezstreet5

Geuze wrote: »

I dip in and out of this discussion, so apologies for the questions:

I see a reference to 120 kph and also to 160 kph above.

Can I clarify is 1.5m per km for upgrade to 160kph correct?

It seems low to me?


Costs to build halts always seem high to me, 5m?

I'd be hoping you'd get two platforms and an overbridge/subway for 5m?


So 58m for the physical infrastructure, ok. More questions:

(2) This would allow trains to pass/cross at three points in Athenry, Ballyglunin/N63 and in Tuam?

(3) Could peak departures/arrivals to/from Tuam every 30 mins be managed?

(4) What might journey time be from Tuam-GY, with three stops? I'd be hoping for 30 mins?

My estimate wasn't to that level of detail, but I'll try to answer some of your questions:

(1) The per-km cost is to upgrade the line to 160 kph single track.
(2) Yes, trains could pass at Tuam, Ballyglunin, and Athenry.
(3) It could, but I would not expect a frequency higher than hourly.
(4) Athenry-Galway can be made in 18 mins, but there is still a manual level crossing near Oranmore and low speed limit on the Lough Atalia Br. Athenry Tuam is a few km longer, but is fairly straight, so perhaps double to 36 minutes. If Athenry Galway was double-tracked, manual level crossing near Oranmore removed, and additional platforms were at Galway, I believe the journey time can be reduced to 30 minutes Tuam to Galway.

You can derive your own costs from the report I looked at. See Table 9-2 on p. 140 of the second link.

https://www.irishrail.ie/IrishRail/media/Imported/irishrail_28febfinal_part11.pdf
https://www.irishrail.ie/IrishRail/media/Imported/irishrail_28febfinal_part21.pdf