Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120224451#Comment_120224451

I would not base my opinion on a piece of infrastructure on emotion only. If you say there is no logical argument you are discounting the view of people of such Prof John Bradly, formerly of the ESRI, who has dismantled in detail the most recent EY report on the viability of the railway and has produced a strong counter argument for reinstatement of the line. A government commisioned report can be skewed to be either in favour of or in opposition to a proposal, depending on what the government wishes the outcome of the report to be. If you rely on the EY report to support your argument you need to review it again to see its multiple shortcomings.

Jamie2k9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120224262#Comment_120224262

Freight isn't even an argument but an acceptable enough to keep it on the table and everyone is happy.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120224601#Comment_120224601

Im not sure what you are saying there. Do you mean its preferable not to open railways and continue to carry freight on roads and just ignore potential climate benefits?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120224585#Comment_120224585

Jesus wept, if you're sole source against multiple reports is coming direct from WoT you're in real trouble

His costings were shown to be utter nonsense at the time. Same as all other WoT costings. They were out by nearly 50% on phase 1 for gods sake.

WoT have a vested interest and extreme bias which is why none of their "reports" are taken seriously.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120224701#Comment_120224701

Shown by who? Can you point me to the analysis that says his costing were utter nonsense?. If you can I will be happy to consider it.

Are you aware of the errors in the EY report and if so do you still find it credible?

And no its not my sole source. Eamon Ryan has predicted that the impending all ireland review will recommend opening the western line. If thats the case will you regard that report as rubbish too?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120224745#Comment_120224745

This thread has all the sources you'll need. By all means read back through it. I can't be arsed doing another tit-for-tat with the latest WoT supporter, its been done to death over the last decade. Its like arguing with anti-vaxxers

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for rail lines reopening and rail services expanding. I don't own a car, rail is typically how I travel longer distances.

That being said, phase 1 is an utterly rubbish service because WoT only pushed for reusing the old alignment which meant it was always going to be and always will be, a crap service. It's only got the demand it has because of the huge subvention which is covering so much of the costs. Last I heard it was around 70eur per passenger. Thats bonkers!

A freight service which relies on taking demand from a line with excess capacity, is not a logical argument for running freight.

I'm all for smart, high impact investment in rail, especially in the west. WRC is not that, it never has been and never will be.

Smart rail investment in the west means full double tracking of the Galway-Dublin line along its full length, high frequency commuter rail, commuter stations opened at Roscam & Renmore, huge expansion of P&R facilities at Oranmore, Athenry etc etc etc

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120224897#Comment_120224897

Thank you setting out your reasoning. As I said I am happy to review my opinion at any stage. If the capacity is a big issue then it does seem to undermine the idea of adding to the line as you say.

However regardless of what may be said about Bradleys figures the issues remain as to why the latest Government commissioned report was so full of errors and contradictory figures. It's the last official report we have to go on and it shouldn't be so easy to pick holes in it, given its importance and the time and cost that went into it.

Hopefully whatever is recommended in the AI review is credible and can withstand scrutiny. Otherwise it will just be another waste of everyones time.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120225056#Comment_120225056

Won't really matter. It'll be a fudge for the WRC because it suits vested interests to keep dangling that carrot while never actually developing anything.

The only that thing will happen north of Athenry within the next 30 years, is more rust on the rails,

mayo.mick

https://youtu.be/91XHC3P3tpU

Round and round and round we go.......

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120224262#Comment_120224262

How many freight yards are there?

Also what are the alternative road projects to be cancelled, Knock to Collooney?

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120225056#Comment_120225056

Hopefully whatever is recommended in the AI review is credible and can withstand scrutiny.

From what I have seen and heard, the All Ireland Rail Review doesn't assess the feasibility of any projects, but is more a list of "wouldn't it be great if ..." projects. It seems to "recommend" doing every rail project that you can think of, plus some others too. We will have to see once it has been published but it sounds like it is more conceptual based rather than facts and figures.

I'm sure there'll be a big disclaimer on all of it's "recommendations" saying subject to further assessment or something like that. The report will have no real standing and won't form even the vaguest intention to do anything, that's what the NDP is for. It's just another report to keep the plates spinning while nothing actually happens. This of course suits plenty of people down to the ground.

FrankLeeSpeaking

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120224168#Comment_120224168

Nothing of what you posted is relevant to reopening the rail line. The entire route needs (needed) to be rebuilt from the foundation up. Having 100 year old track and sleepers in situ is not at all relevant to reopening.

L1011

Track and sleepers haven't stopped huge encroachment on the Claremorris-Colooney section. Driveways, gardens, car dealers...

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120226176#Comment_120226176

it's very relevant, he was giving you the background to the good father and how he came to be involved in the railway campaign, something you asked for.

any line that has been out of service for a time will require rebuilding, that is a non-issue really and to be expected and is part of everything.

i get you were probably hoping for a specific answer and didn't get it so are now claiming his post isn't relevant when it is but you got the correct answer to what you asked for.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120226194#Comment_120226194

IR should send a machine through, even once every 3 or 4 years to tear through their creations and put manners on people.

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120224664#Comment_120224664

Is there much of a climate benefit to reopening a rail line for small quantities of freight,especially when it's probably going to be trucked to and from the rail head either side ,

I mean if rail freight was going to be so great wouldn't you start with the bigger ports/ cargo generators Dublin cork Waterford ,limerick ,Galway , just linking those directly from quayside to railyards would really impact , and a lot of that infrastructure is still there,might need a teeny bit of work though..

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120226194#Comment_120226194

That's gone and never coming back ..

The midleton-youghal Greenway goes around a strip of the old line being used as a farmyard , and that line was used in the mid 80s , (I don't know when IE last traveled the line,or excerted ownership,or what the time limit is for squatters rights in this case )

The work is being done for cork Cc, but the land is still owned by IE , and they didn't want to make a fuss

marno21

We now have a Minister for Transport who is basing transport policy on the thoughts that cross his mind while he's in the shower. It's little surprise we are seeing the Athenry-Claremorris freight line being mentioned in an official capacity. It'll be quite the mess for the next Minister to clear up and steer the country back towards a functional, realistic approach to transport policy.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120228207#Comment_120228207

Whatever happens, the days of the 10:1 ratio in favour of roads are over

Sustainable modes will be getting the lions share of investment from here on out, the only question will be how it'll be broken out across rail, bus, AT etc

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120228569#Comment_120228569

I didn’t mention roads. But freight rail from Claremorris-Athenry has no real world foundation.

Anyway, what do buses travel on? Those Galway-Sligo buses have to use the N17, and will continue to use the N17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120228737#Comment_120228737

100% agree about the freight rail

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120228569#Comment_120228569

At the current run rate, it will all be spent on 'walking and active travel' initiatives ...as if that will get you from Cork to Galway

brianc89

I don't understand this push back against freight.

Comments here assume freight isn't needed based on current usage. A bit of a flawed argument?...

Is it not reasonable to assume Ireland massively underutilises freight, but this is something that could change?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120228956#Comment_120228956

Rail freight is best suited for bulk goods. We have bugger all of that.

The distances involved make container freight non-viable as you would be trucking to the rail line, loading onto the train, then unloading onto a truck at the other end. You'd have damn near driven it by then.

By all means show me the demand for it and where that demand is projected to outgrow the current capacity.

I'll see if I can pull up some data I posted on this topic before but the data showed something like 10 years worth of rail freight volumes didn't even hit 10% of a single year of truck freight.

The demand is not there and is unlikely to ever be there but please, show me otherwise. If there's a market for it cool, but I don't think there is.

I'm still eager to see where the rail freight demand is going to come from for the WRC that is not already met by the existing service

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229305#Comment_120229305

A few comments:

• You mention only 10% of cargo is currently transported on freight. This means 90% isn't - that's a massive opportunity to take advantage of.

• Loading and unloading shouldn't be an issue if infrastructure is put in place at the ports.

• The ferry from France to Rosslare is about 17hours - saving a few hours doesn't particularly matter.

• It's also not about the quickest transportation, it's about reducing emissions.

• We have a driver shortage all across Europe, so reducing the need for drivers is good.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229358#Comment_120229358

Read what I said again as regards the 10% (to be honest I think it was closer to 1% but I'll have to dig it out) as you seem to have misunderstood.

Edit: found the data I posted previously, see link, clarifies the situation perfectly I think.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/113363448#Comment_113363448

The data shows the following

The total for rail over that 12 year period, 8,359,000 tonnes, equates to 7% of the volume of road freight in its lowest year, 2012 when 108,078,000 tonnes were carried by road.

Read that again, 12 years of total rail freight equaled just 7% of road freight in its worst year.

Im all for reducing emissions, I regularly get lambasted on other forums here for the push for that.

But again I'll ask, where is the demand for freight on the WRC? Where is the projected demand? Who are the customers who's needs are not being met?

Spending a fortune on the WRC for freight is wreckless if its not possible to even show the demand.

Especially seeing as some want it prioritised above the investment in the main line

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229465#Comment_120229465

Regardless of the exact figures, the vast majority of goods are transported by road. This doesn't mean it's cheaper, it just means freight isn't well set up in this country.

You can't conclude that freight isn't needed based on current low usage, especially when we need to decarbonise the economy and there is a shortage of drivers.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229616#Comment_120229616

You can't conclude that freight isn't needed based on current low usage, especially when we need to decarbonise the economy and there is a shortage of drivers.

Fair enough, show me how much freight has switched from road to rail so.

Seriously I have nothing against rail freight, I am challenging it as a justification for the reopening of the WRC as nobody has been able to provide a shred of evidence to justify it.

Show me anything, any data, that would justify the spend on the WRC over the main line.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229465#Comment_120229465

Sorry I am misunderstanding your data. Your 7% number confused me. So it's 0.5% to 1% at best. Very low indeed.

Based on this, I still wouldn't conclude that freight can't be viable, if better infrastructure is put in place. I don't know anything about the supply chains required for wind in particular (maintenance as well as construction), but the Greens seem to think freight is necessary.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229761#Comment_120229761

You're underestimating the hassle and time in loading and unloading stuff, the more times it has to be done the more people involved and expensive it gets. Waiting for stuff to be loaded or unloaded is driver time wasted.

If we made a lot of bulk stuff that isn't time sensitive like the Coca-Cola syrup in Ballina it can make sense, but I can't think of any equivalent here in Galway. In the other direction what we import again is lots of random stuff. It doesn't particularly make sense to unload at a port, load onto a train, train it to say Mullingar, unload onto a truck, truck it to a distribution center, unload there when the distance is so short the alternative is much simpler and quicker.

The wind farm stuff is nonsense. Currently the equipment for one being developed outside Galway is shipped directly to Galway port and unloaded. At night they are loaded onto specialist, very long trailers and driven straight to the site. It's unlikely they would fit on the current rail network. If they did it would still face the problem of the final miles, they have to be unloaded and loaded onto trucks again regardless.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120229761#Comment_120229761

No sorry, either there is a case for freight or there isn't.

Parts for some wind turbines is not a viable business case.

As far as I can tell the argument for it goes something like this

WRC: We must divert funds from the main line to reopen the WRC for freight

Everyone else: What freight?

WRC: Freight

Everyone else: Err ok, who's freight?

WRC: Freight

Everyone else:???? What kind of freight?

WRC: Freight

Everyone else: Where is the freight coming from?

WRC: Freight

Everyone else: How much freight is there?

WRC: Freight

Everyone else:.......

It can't be that difficult to get info, especially when you consider the sums involved

Pete_Cavan

The main argument for rail freight seems to be the assumption that reduces carbon which probably isn't correct. Basically all of our rail network outside of the Dublin and Cork commuter areas will remain non-electrified for a long time so any freight would be diesel hauled and all the associated emissions. Road vehicles are moving to electric and doing so at a faster rate than rail here.

The great white hope of rail freight right now is the Foynes line and that isn't being electrified. Reopening it is costing €65m and that's non-electrified and with lots of Level Crossings. The cost of electrification would have killed the project and certainly would do so for WRC north of Athenry where assessments have found no value for money in a bog-standard reopening.

Freight isn't like passenger services where you can say the train is running anyway so any journey using it instead of the car is a reduction in fuel emissions. For rail freight, you need a customer to justify the service. That generally means a very small number of customers for the full service due to all the coordination required, and the inflexibility makes it unattractive to 95% of potential customers. You can’t put on a freight rail and sell small volumes of space on it like you do with a passenger service.

The fallacy of rail freight is highlighted by the suggestions by the MfT and others that the south Wexford line should be reopened for rail freight to/from Rosslare and Bellview ports. Both ports are already connected to the rail network and don't need to be connected to each other. There is no potential freight flows in between them that needs a rail connection to either port. Any other freight using that line to/from one of those ports would be passing the other port.

If the Basically, the carbon thing sounds good but if you actually look at the reality of it, it isn't particularly good at all. That's why Ryan waffles on about these things, he wants them for ideological reasons and doesn't consider the actual reality of the situation.

end of the road

diesel rail will still be an emitions reduction as electric trucks ETC will require lots of generation to facilitate them being charged, which, until we are a fully renewable grid, will require foscel fuels.

even then it's not just emitions from foscel fuels that are environmentally destructive.

you absolutely can sell small spaces on rail freight trains but one will need sufficient users for it but it can be done, there isn't anything technical to prohibit it.

Markcheese

So rail freight to claremorris , carrying fuel for wind turbines and Data for data centers

The main bulk items being imported and exported in Ireland are timber, animal feed / grain and ore (hence foynes ) ,oh and fuel,

Animal feed often goes to individual ports and is usually distributed from there ,obviously can't go to farms via train .

A lot of oil products go by coastal tanker to ports and road distributed from there ,

Timber does get some rail use . ( I think) ,

Most ports/quay sides aren't rail connected anymore ..

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120226176#Comment_120226176

My point to you was in relation to your disparaging remarks about Fr McGreal. It was you that brought the discussion in that direction and so my points were relevant in addressing what you said. Id much prefer if the discussion sticks to debate on the rail itself.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120225471#Comment_120225471

Sorry about the late reply. I dont have information on whether its one large freight yard or a number of them. Only that its the largest outside Dublin.

Knock to Collooney is supposed to be going ahead but has been scaled back significantly from an initial idea to have a full north-south atlantic motorway.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120230177#Comment_120230177

Any lorries, electric or not, that can be removed from the roads can only be a good thing. The less heavy vehicles that we have to share the roads with so much the better.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120230177#Comment_120230177

The main argument for rail freight seems to be the assumption that reduces carbon which probably isn't correct.

Even if freight uses diesel trains, they are far more efficient, given the larger capacity, versus individual lorries.

Also, the emissions required to mine rare earth minerals from the ground (batteries) are going to become a bigger and bigger issue. We can't assume if we electrify everything that we're carbon neutral.

Ireland's distribution network is not set up for freight right now - but that shouldn't conclude that it can't be adjusted to become a bigger player.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120226194#Comment_120226194

ironically a greenway along the line probably would stop encroachment until such a time as they line may be viable

Markcheese

A Diesel freight train is greener than a lorry IF it's carrying a lot of freight ..

Empty trains don't really have a positive effect on the environment ,

Think of your shopping coming back from the supermarket, it could be delivered by articulated lorry (they're far more efficient per ton than your car) , but it's not really a smart idea to send artics down every boreen and laneway to drop off a few bags of shopping ..

Markcheese

And then add to that , if you spend billions opening several rural freight only lines - (that don't carry a large volume of freight ) then you've squandered the opportunity to use train for what they're good at , MASS TRANSIT , either in urban areas or between urban areas ..

Markcheese

And then add to that , if you spend billions opening several rural freight only lines - (that don't carry a large volume of freight ) then you've squandered the opportunity to use train for what they're good at , MASS TRANSIT , either in urban areas or between urban areas ..

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120237603#Comment_120237603

No one has suggested spending billions reopening some old lines. In 2005, it was estimated to cost 35m for Athenry-Tuam and 59m for Tuam-Claremorris.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120238144#Comment_120238144

Who's estimates?

WOT's?

They've shown form in vastly under estimating. They quoted phase 1 at 76 million, it came in 50% higher at around 110 million

Lets not forget the near 20 years of inflation you would need to apply as well

Markcheese

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120238144#Comment_120238144

I think they were suggesting similar for rosslare Waterford ,

Plus they're going to need rolling stock , and freight yards and staff and annual running costs .so a huge annual subvention ,

Pete_Cavan

The multiple smaller customer route isn't realistic for rail freight. The pool of potential customers with goods running between the rail freight nodes is very small, and of that small pool, it is going to be very difficult to tempt them away from the well established method. If road is required for further movement, you have double-handling and most would likely go road from start to finish.

The freight train would likely have to be running empty as a proof of concept before any business could seriously consider ditching the tried and tested method with a choice of multiple logistics companies available and signing up to a new service with a single operator. There would also have to be guarantees that the rail service will operate for the foreseeable future and heavy penalties if it is dropped, potential customers need certainty.

The rail option would also have to be cheaper than road, and as that is unlikely to be the case for real operating costs, the rail would have to be heavily subsidised. I doubt that is even allowed under competition rules.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120239872#Comment_120239872

As a logistics manager you'd also have to account for it being a single point-of-failure from the likes of strikes, line issues etc

I believe there was a strike ages ago that killed a lot of the rail freight demand, but I'm talking many years ago now

This thread has info on it

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/208096/ilda-the-destroyers-of-railfreight-in-ireland

end of the road

there was way way more involved in the downfall of rail freight in ireland then the ILDA.

don't get me wrong, they didn't helpe matters, but realistically a lot of the freight around will have either been on the way out, or irish rail planned to get out of it anyway in their misguided strategy to only focus on the passenger sector.

it was just easier to blame the ILDA for the lot.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120241273#Comment_120241273

True enough, I know the likes of fertilisers etc died off but strikes that ran for weeks won't have made the service appealing to any potential customers

Markcheese

We had pretty much every city and large town connected to a rail network , and most of the ports too , there were many dedicated rail freight yards and rail container freight yards ,

Most tellingly We didn't have a motorway network,

And it still didn't work ..