Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635444#Comment_120635444

Also, apart from a 3km section between Miltown and Ballindine, the N17 between Tuam and Claremorris is a fairly decent road.

Miltown and Ballindine are tiny villages and I don't think they suffer from major traffic issues. They won't be bypassed.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635546#Comment_120635546

CPO for a realignment of that 3km section was done last year.

But a bigger question, if the rail line to Claremorris is to open again, surely a new road from Claremorris to Tuam would be a good idea given there are 4 level crossings along the route? And 2 villages to bypass

serfboard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635546#Comment_120635546

IIRC that bad section north of Milltown is currently out to tender. I don't think the tender includes a bypass of Milltown.

Once that bit is done, the N17 will be a decent road from Tuam to Curry (except for the section just south of Charlestown).

North of Curry though, it's a terrible and dangerous "National Primary Route", which town bypasses alone will not fix.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635634#Comment_120635634

the level crossings could probably be sorted by bridges, the villages then bypassed if needs be.

serfboard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635696#Comment_120635696

"Probably" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence.

If that was the case, how come there are still Level Crossings in Oranmore and Craughwell?

And if bridges are going to be built, what is that going to bring the total estimated cost up to?

end of the road

there are still level crossings in Oranmore and Craughwell because funding has not been put forward to close them.

mayo.mick

The "Burma Road" is 47 miles from Claremorris to Collooney, with 48 level crossings....

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635537#Comment_120635537

If referring to reopening WRC to Claremorris and the N17 Knock - Collooney, these projects are not along the same corridor. There is about 25km between the nearest points of these projects. I don't think anyone would consider one as a replacement for the other.

I think very few would consider reopening WRC to Claremorris as invesment in the North West region. The North West region would generally be considered Sligo, Leitrim and Donegal and that project would do nothing for them.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635788#Comment_120635788

Semantics. The point is it's strategic investment in major population centres, such as the Greater Dublin area, versus regional investment.

It's like saying a Metro to Tallaght is different to a Metro to Swords, therefore both projects deserve funding. That's simply not the reality.

Funding for regional investment is severely limited and the balance has majorly tipped towards rail and public transport.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635634#Comment_120635634

Good point. Didn't realise it would be as much as 4 crossings if the rail opened. That's a lot of potential N17 travel disruption without new bridges.

Pete_Cavan

Your

Y

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120635847#Comment_120635847

I have no idea what you are saying here. Your overall point seems to that the government needs to be seen to be investing in the North West to pacify voters there. Reopening a rail line 90% in County Galway will not be seen as investment in the North West, especially not by people living in the North West who would gain no benefit from such an investment.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120636656#Comment_120636656

My "overall point" should have simply said "West-North West" region, not North-West. That's it.

My point stands whether you agree or not.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120636987#Comment_120636987

I think the number of people who would agree that a rail reopening in county Galway would be an adequate replacement for a road upgrade in county Sligo (the fact both extend a small distance into county Mayo is irrelevant given the distance between the parts in Mayo) would be tiny.

It certainly wouldn't be seen as acceptable to the people who live north of the N5 so the idea that the rail line would satisfy people's expectation of investment in their region is very flawed.

I doubt you'd find many to agree that your point stands.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120637735#Comment_120637735

I'm not saying one is a direct replacement for the other. The rest of the country is likely to see them as linked, as they are on the same Galway - Sligo corridor.

• There has been a massive shift from roads investment over to rail.

• Upgrades along the N2, N3 and N4 will benefit the North-West. The N17 is lower priority than these, unfortunately.

• There have been a few articles recently about lack of funding for N17 road upgrades.

• If the government are going to renege on N17 road, then funding for WRC is more likely, IMHO.

I hardly think it's a massively controversial point or opinion?!...

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120638053#Comment_120638053

In fairness to yourself and Pete_Cavan in a way you are both right. He is correctly saying that a railway to Claremorris isn't of any use to people in Sligo or Donegal as it's not available to them.

However your mention of thinking in terms of regional infrastructure does seem to be way Eamon Ryan is thinking right now. His radio piece suggests it in the way he responded to a question on the N17 northern end by talking about WRC as a better alternative. So he is looking at the transport budget overall and the 2:1 public transport/road investment ratio, rightly or wrongly.

As I said it's not much good to the people using the N17 to access the Northwest but that seems to be the approach now. Whether he can change projects like the N17 listed in the NDP and overcome political resistance to that remains to be seen.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120638053#Comment_120638053

Your argument seems to be based on "but if they don't do this X they HAVE TO do Y.....because they HAVE TO"

Thing is, there is no pot of money for the area you are referring to which would allow for spending on one project or the other and this is not how project priority or funding is determined.

You're 100% entitled to your opinion and its not that one or the other project will or won't happen, its just very, VER, VERY, unlikely the WRC will ever happen because, well, it makes no sense when stacked up against other rail projects.

The funding of it bears no relation to the N17 project, if it did, then WRC phase 1 would absolutely never have happened given the spend on the M18.

WRC phase was justified by optimism and made up rider projections. What resulted was a terrible service on a crap line. We need to be aiming higher

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120638111#Comment_120638111

Thanks!! You've put it very well.

Unfortunately with limited funding there has to be a fair and reasonable spread across different regions. Anyway, let's move on from N17 road versus WRC, it was just a passing thought.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120638133#Comment_120638133

WRC phase 1 was poorly executed with avg speed 60kmh, but this shouldn't be used as a bat to beat future upgrades. We can do better.

Due to the legally binding Climate Action plan, future governments will have to stick to the 2:1 Rail:Road policy, so I wouldn't write off WRC so easily.

marno21

Due to the legally binding Climate Action plan, future governments will have to stick to the 2:1 Rail:Road policy, so I wouldn't write off WRC so easily.

Anything legally binding can be legally unbound.

Re: road upgrades. Clearly the NW isn't a priority for Minister Ryan because in recent years he's defunded the N2 Ardee-Castleblayney road upgrade (singled out by TII for above average rates of head on collisions), the N2 Clontibret-NI border road upgrade (singled out by TII for above average rates of head on collisions), and the N4 Mullingar-Longford road upgrade (singled out by TII for above average rates of head on collisions). He also has suspended work on upgrades to the M3 and N4 approaches to Dublin which, if extra outbound lanes were added, would help traffic leave Dublin quicker and keep traffic on the motorways rather than through urban areas.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120638226#Comment_120638226

Anything legally binding can be legally unbound

The ship sailed on that with the Supreme Court ruling against the govt. In addition all political parties, without exception, 100% voted to approve the climate action legislation so there won't be any party looking to roll back which they can no longer do anyway unless they can show how rolling back will still allow us to reach emission reduction targets

Regarding the head on collisions, do you have a report link for that, would love to review it

intellectual dosser

Clearly, staying in office isn’t Eamon Ryan’s priority. I don’t expect the people of Sligo and North Mayo to forgive the greens for defunding the N17 upgrades at the next election.

I’m all for a greener future, but the Green Party will need to compromise on their principles a little in the near term to stay in power. They won’t be able to implement their solutions at all from opposition.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120638206#Comment_120638206

Due to the legally binding Climate Action plan, future governments will have to stick to the 2:1 Rail:Road policy, so I wouldn't write off WRC so easily.

Again, for I think the 4th time, I'm not.

I'm saying it's going to be wayyyy down the list of rail projects to receive funding.

Will it happen, probably. Will it happen before 2060, unlikely as there are decades of higher priority projects to get through first.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120638331#Comment_120638331

We're back to points earlier which you didn't respond to.

You mention dual tracking Athenry Galway as a necessity for WRC phase 2, however with the Oranmore upgrade, capacity on that section can be increased to one train every 10-15 minutes in each direction. Currently, there is one train every hour on that section. So a 4 fold increase.

With a 2:1 Rail:Road split, the only project that would benefit the W-NW is WRC phase 2. Castlebar, Westport, Ballina and Claremorris (4 largest towns in Mayo) as well as Tuam (largest town in Galway) will be connected to Galway city.

I believe it will receive higher priority than 2060.

Pete_Cavan

There is no 2:1 Ra:Road policy, the Programme for Government committed to a 2:1 expenditure ratio between public transport and new road building. This is not legally binding (it is an agreement between political parties, governments regularly fail to deliver aspects of their PfG) and is not linked to the Climate Action Plan.

It doesn't necessarily help WRC, it is likely the ratio will be met as the government is building very few roads over the next couple of years and intend spending on BusConnects in multiple cities, new bus fleets, DART+, new heavy rail rolling stock, Metrolink, etc. It is also unlikely that the current government parties will make up the next government and the Green Party will likely have very limited influence (probably reduced TDs) so the ratio may not exist in 2 years.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120638544#Comment_120638544

My apologies, you're right, I saw your points but forgot to respond to them

You're right about the Oranmore passing loop. However its a passing loop only so would still involve services sitting and waiting for another train to pass. If you've travelled the Galway-Dublin line at all you'll know that happens at a too frequent basis already at Athenry and can result in waits of up to 20 mins or more. I had a 35 min wait on a recent service

Again, and no criticism towards yourself more a general comment about WRC support, but thats a low bar to be aiming for. Saying its ok for travelers to sit and wait is not going to encourage modal shift. A shortened journey time with reliable journey times, frequency and and expanded schedule is more likely to work.

The passing loop is 100% welcome however its a token piece of work. The double tracking needs to happen for the full length to Athenry (and beyond on the main line but thats for another thread).

With a 2:1 Rail:Road split, the only project that would benefit the W-NW is WRC phase 2. Castlebar, Westport, Ballina and Claremorris (4 largest towns in Mayo) as well as Tuam (largest town in Galway) will be connected to Galway city.

Whatever about WRC phase 2 going to Tuam or MAYBE Claremorris, there's zero chance of it going beyond that in our lifetimes. The figures just simply do not stack up when compared to other rail projects. I'd also argue that if you ask the folks in Castlebar, Westport, Ballina and Claremorris, where the investment should go, you would get an answer that says it should go into improving the existing services.

As an example, there's 5 services from Westport to Dublin a day, with a 3hr+ journey time, thats shockingly poor.

Looking at Westport to Galway, you're looking at a 1hr20min drive. No WRC2 train will come close to that and is likely to be double it and would involve 2 changes so depending on scheduling who knows how long the journey would take

I believe it will receive higher priority than 2060.

I mentioned it earlier, the Navan line. Thats been signed off by cabinet and isn't looking like it will open before 2040. As I mentioned, there's a lot higher priority rail projects than WRC 2, hence my 2060 estimate. I believe its a realistic estimate based on the facts at hand.

If you want rail investment in the region, by all means, shout for it, but shout for the investment that will make a real difference. WRC2 is not that investment, by any measure you choose to apply. WRC2 makes sense if you asses it based on emotion only.

Hotblack Desiato

@brianc89

Unfortunately with limited funding there has to be a fair and reasonable spread across different regions.

To avoid/reduce carbon fines we need to be spending where the greatest impact on mode shift will be had, not where hopes of political gain dictate.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120638715#Comment_120638715

With respect, I think you're being unfair / biased with some of your points.

Westport-Galway by rail - you're assuming it would require 2 changes and take up to 2hrs 40minutes. This is wholly unfair. Also, you say driving takes 1hr 20mins, but that's assuming no traffic. 1hr 40mins is more likely.

Direct Westport-Galway services could be launched. A journey time of 1hr 40mins is highly possible assuming no upgrades to current lines (WP to CB - 32mins actual, CB to AR - 50mins estimated, AR to GW - 18mins actual).

In general, I think we disagree, as I have more confidence Ireland has finally pulled the finger out. With a major step change in policy (2:1 PT:Road), I think it's inevitable that these projects will massively speed up.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120638715#Comment_120638715

Also, the Oranmore upgrade is just a passing loop, not even a platform???? That is mind boggling stupid. Seriously like 🫣🙈

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120639209#Comment_120639209

The additional platform didn't come up in the discussion as it had no bearing. I was referring to it being a passing loop in terms of additional track

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120639196#Comment_120639196

With a major step change in policy (2:1 PT:Road), I think it's inevitable that these projects will massively speed up.

100% and I'm looking forward to see much more PT development over the next few years. As you say, we disagree. You think WRC is a priority for investment, I don't as there is no logical basis for it to be when compared with the many, many other rail projects worthy of investment.

To be honest, we can go back and forth on this until the cows come home but the rail review will give the true indicator as to what is or is not a priority. Fingers crossed that'll get released soon but thats dependent on the Northern Ireland Assembly getting sorted and god knows when that will happen as long as the DUP have a veto

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120639332#Comment_120639332

Yeah the Rail Review is really need ASAP. I have high hopes. Ireland managed to build most of the Motorway system in a decade, due to political will and funds. The same can happen with rail, especially with climate as an added motivator.

Just on Oranmore, I wasn't being smart, is there a new platform or just a passing loop!?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120639362#Comment_120639362

My bad, thought you were making a dig. Will edit to correct

Yes, there is a second platform being added

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120638544#Comment_120638544

The addition of a 1km passing loop in Oranmore will allow 4tph in each direction, is that the case?

Might this mean more Gt to Athenry shuttles? Or more trains to Dublin and/or Limerick?

Is there enough stock for that?

Although the application for planning permission has not been submitted yet, there is some sort of surveying / prep work taking place near the station.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120646042#Comment_120646042

I was a bit wrong actually. I think it's 3tphpd. Current journey times are:

10-12mins Athenry to Oranmore and 6-7 mins Oranmore to Galway. However it takes an avg of 20mins. That implies a frequency of 1 train every 40 mins or 1.5tphpd.

If there is a loop at Oranmore, this could increase to 1 train every 20mins (using the 10mins above and assuming improved signalling etc.). This is equivalent to 3tphpd.

Current actual usage of the line is around 1tphpd, so an increase to 3tphpd would allow a massive increase in capacity.

CatInABox

Had posted some of this in the Dart+ infrastructure thread, but I'll include some of it here too, as I think it's pretty relevant. IR had a presentation a conference about electrification, and one of the slides they showed was this:

Screenshot 2023-05-28 at 20.58.59.png

It's got their plans up until 2050. Obviously it's all subject to change but it makes no mention of the WRC at all.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120651945#Comment_120651945

Great piece of info, thanks for that.

Have to be honest, its depressingly unambitious in terms of timelines, 2040 for double tracking to Athenry. Given that there would be virtually no CPO's thats just ridiculous. I get that they would have to redo 3 rail bridges (Teagasc site, Derrydonnell & Renmore) so that would add to the cost and timelines but still, we're looking at 20 years of a wait for commuter rail

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120653002#Comment_120653002

I don't think that it's a lack of desire on their part, I think it's lack of capacity.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120653418#Comment_120653418

When you say capacity, do you mean capacity to get the work done i.e. only so many technical skills available for x projects, or do you mean line capacity?

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120638111#Comment_120638111

I would hope that if the WRC ever reopened to Tuam and/or Claremorris, then all BE and Feda busses would feed their pax from Donegal and Sligo onto the train in Claremorris.

Having sister companies compete for traffic on same route doesn't help the economics of the railway.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120653562#Comment_120653562

That would make sense alright. It would make Claremorris something of a transport hub having a rail cross-roads near the N17.

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120653562#Comment_120653562

Is there any rail service in the country where Bus Eireann curtail services to redirect passengers onto the train?

And as for Bus Feda? Expecting a private company to curtail their services and hand revenue over to a semi-state competitor is a complete pipe dream.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120654969#Comment_120654969

Bus eireann is state owned so their routes could be easily adjusted as part of an overall transport strategy.

Private buses you mentioned may be less inclined but if trains into Galway got up and running in conjunction with congestion charges for private cars and buses they may change tack also.

LXFlyer

Just to point out that Bus Éireann Expressway services are also commercial services, and are not subsidised by the State. I don't think you will see them changing either.

Their PSO services on the other hand could be re-focussed to feed into rail services at certain locations. They are operated at the behest of the NTA.

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655227#Comment_120655227

Again - what other rail route do BE already do this on?

Reducing public transport provision isn’t going to be something that any politician is going to want to be seen to do -

Any suggestion of bus services between two major population centres in Connacht being curtailed in order to boost train ridership numbers is about as realistic as those “The Train is Coming” posters what WOT were sticking up in Tubberucrry 20 years ago

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120653554#Comment_120653554

Ah yes, I meant they only have enough people to run X amount of projects, and have prioritized other projects for the foreseeable future.

Westernview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655705#Comment_120655705

Jeez some really negative posters on this tread.

It's only an idea. Why get so aggressive with responses. I'm not aware of BE doing anything like that at present but it's about thinking ahead not looking back. A bus service replaced with part bus part rail would not represent an OVERALL reduction in services.

Its only an idea as I said and with reduced carbon emissions becoming more and more important its worth considering at the very least.

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655880#Comment_120655880

Pie in the sky nonsense like the above, peddled by the likes of WOT for the past 20+ years, are a big part of the reason that the Sligo-Charlestown section remains idle (except of course the parts that are now being used as private gardens!) instead of having already been developed into an amenity that would benefit the local areas AND bring some tourism. Thankfully Sligo CoCo have finally decided to push on with an actual achievable project instead of pretending that a meandering alignment that never was, and never will be, a viable railway might someday be restored.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120656654#Comment_120656654

The fact that the greenway is being developed on that section now "to protect the alignment until such time as rail is a viable option" is a clear indicator IMHO that the same will be done from Athenry northwards.

Being realistic, there won't be a rail line north from there for at least 20 years and thats being optimistic. Better to make use of it in the meantime, let industries and tourist related employment grow now, then when its viable, shift the greenway to the side and develop the line. All the infrastructure for tourism will be in place at that point and lead to a much more successful line

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120655779#Comment_120655779

I disagree though this remains to be seen. Ireland was able to build most of our motorway network in a decade, as it received proper funding and wide political support.

A change is happening right now as the world finally wakes up to climate change. There is now proper funding, wide political support and climate change as motivators.

Our PT / AT infrastructure can now have a golden decade of development. Can we allow ourselves some more optimism, please?!....

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120656777#Comment_120656777

On the tourism point, there is a strong argument to be made to open the entire WRC. A new alignment between Claremorris and Charlestown could serve "Ireland West Airport Knock".

That could bring unlimited tourists into the West from all across UK and Europe. I've always believed Knock Airport has massive untapped potential to be a gateway for tourists. A rail line could be the thing that makes it.

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120657023#Comment_120657023

There's no "strong" argument supported by tourism via Knock airport.

Knock already has a train station less than 20minutes away from it with direct train services to Castlebar and Westport (the old WRC station in Charlestown is approx 10min from Ireland West Airport - not a significant difference). If your hypothesis held any water at all then we'd have a shuttle bus offering to Ballyhaunis station from Knock airport, and crowds waiting on the Ballyhaunis platform as the train from Dublin pulls in. But of course, we don't.

So clearly it's not the heartland of Mayo that tourism will be driven to by the WRC from Knock - given the WRC would instead bring tourists by bus to Charlestown, then by a long looping route to Claremorris, where they have to change onto the same train that has already just passed through Ballyhaunis on it's way to Westport.

Maybe it's Galway that will experience this great tourist boom? But Galway already has a rail-link from Shannon - with Sixmilebridge not a whole lot further than Charlestown is from Knock.

So I guess it must be Sligo that will take all the benefit from linking Knock to the WRC? With the meandering Burma Road driving tourism towards Sligo that the already-existing, more-direct, bus services haven't managed to do from Knock; and indeed, which Sligo Airport never managed to do when it had direct flights from both Dublin and from the UK during the Celtic tiger years.

Ultimately where the hypothesis falls down is that Tourism in the West of Ireland is about a hell of a lot more than urban centres (which rail can link). Tourists want to travel the Wild Atlantic Way, visit Downpatrick Head, Knocknarae, Kylemore Abbey and Connemara. As a result, they end up on coach tours or in rental cars. And given Ireland isn't a particularly big country they are laregely happy to fly into Dublin and travel to the West from there.

Much like Maslow's man with a hammer, the rail enthusiasts have yet to encounter an issue that they don't think can be solved by a train

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120657291#Comment_120657291

Wow the ranting nature of your reply says it all. I'm not saying my argument isn't open to scrutiny, it's just one angle in a much larger discussion.

If someone says a Greenway is better for tourism, I would argue a rail connection to an international airport is even better for tourism.

A direct rail connection to an international airport is not the same as.... "there's a train station 25kms that way".