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Feelings on the new JC?

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    #62
    maynooth_rules
    Registered Users Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭maynooth_rules


    https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/education/purpose-of-new-junior-cycle-assessment-largely-unclear-37191255.html

    Change for changes sake.


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    #63
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    maynooth_rules wrote: »
    https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/education/purpose-of-new-junior-cycle-assessment-largely-unclear-37191255.html

    Change for changes sake.

    I'm saying "I told you so" in my head here. This banging on about continuous assessment has always puzzled me a bit. It would not have suited me. It doesn't suit any student with anxiety issues in my opinion. I could understand if they had used some sort of college system with proper exams in 2nd and 3rd year where they are worth a proportion of the subject and the material is finished with.

    Students have gone from having around 12 subjects at JC to 10 subjects with maybe 5 of those having a portfolio element to having 10 subjects with 10 final exams, 20 CBAs and some portfolio elements still existing (music practical exam) for example. So thats 20 odd reportable assessments going on for students between the start of 2nd year and Christmas of 3rd Year.

    In addition 2nd year students are at a notoriously bad age in their teens. Many (boys in particular) have not "woken" up yet or settled into education. This doesn't help.

    Finally the CBA's are not concluding work. So for example in music we will do a CBA in composition in 2nd year (when I would argue many students are still developing skills in composition) but then they are not finished with it either as it could be on the exam.

    I should stay away from this. I'd like my Blood pressure to stay down until I make it to maternity leave :rolleyes:


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    #64
    dory
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 4,501 Mod ✭✭✭✭dory


    And they've decided to do all the CBAs for Irish in 3rd year, like we don't have enough to be doing getting them ready for the Junior Cert. Total disaster. It'll be Christmas of 3rd year before we've half a notion what might be on the exam.


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    #65
    joebloggs32
    Registered Users Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭joebloggs32


    The opening paragraph in that indo article is some crock of sh1t. Trying to blame this mess on the unions or in other words us, the teachers!


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    #66
    Icsics
    Registered Users Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭Icsics


    dory wrote: »
    And they've decided to do all the CBAs for Irish in 3rd year, like we don't have enough to be doing getting them ready for the Junior Cert. Total disaster. It'll be Christmas of 3rd year before we've half a notion what might be on the exam.

    Nope, if it's anything like English it will change every year, content & structure. We were told there'll be no need to buy exam papers anymore, as paper will be different every year!!


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    #67
    mtoutlemonde
    Registered Users Posts: 2,134 ✭✭✭mtoutlemonde


    dory wrote: »
    And they've decided to do all the CBAs for Irish in 3rd year, like we don't have enough to be doing getting them ready for the Junior Cert. Total disaster. It'll be Christmas of 3rd year before we've half a notion what might be on the exam.

    Of course not!! :) We're going to get all the answers in this years cluster days!!

    I like you teach a language and asked the facilitator what the assessment task involved and would it be similar to the English task where students reflect on their learning i.e. are those that correct for the SEC in any other subject to become English teachers i.e. correcting a reflective task (in English) ... my answer?? It's up to the SEC to decide that!! They're making this up as they go along!!


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    #68
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    Nice of that rag to blame teachers for it too.


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    #69
    mirrorwall14
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,751 ✭✭✭mirrorwall14


    And I forgot, don't get me started on where the hell do I finish teaching when the so called specifications are as vague as "1.8 rehearse and perform pieces of music that use common structural devices and textures". Who decides which structural devices and textures are common? And the whole thing is like that.

    Thank God Maths actually seems to be like a syllabus :) It actually feels like they weren't brave enough to tackle the maths again after project maths lol


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    #70
    sandyxxx
    Registered Users Posts: 239 ✭✭sandyxxx


    Haha!
    ....I’m at the stage where I’m timidly anticipating it blowing up in everyone’s faces....
    ........,,,,,teachers via their unions warned against the unnecessary ilconcieved “reforms” that were being foisted upon the system from day one!
    The INDO,Bruton, THE JCT,PDST & The NCCA can try blaming teachers for the incoming mess all they want but teachers weren’t standing outside school gates for the good of their health since 2015!
    .....the first subjects haven’t even finished the first cycle (to results being issued) and the writing is already on the wall as to what a colossal disaster is approaching second level education.
    ........in some ways I worry for what’s ahead but from a purely selfish perspective there’s an element of “I told you so”, you refused to listen, so let the games begin.


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    #71
    happywithlife
    Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭happywithlife


    sandyxxx wrote: »
    Haha!
    ....I’m at the stage where I’m timidly anticipating it blowing up in everyone’s faces....
    ........,,,,,teachers via their unions warned against the unnecessary ilconcieved “reforms” that were being foisted upon the system from day one!
    The INDO,Bruton, THE JCT,PDST & The NCCA can try blaming teachers for the incoming mess all they want but teachers weren’t standing outside school gates for the good of their health since 2015!
    .....the first subjects haven’t even finished the first cycle (to results being issued) and the writing is already on the wall as to what a colossal disaster is approaching second level education.
    ........in some ways I worry for what’s ahead but from a purely selfish perspective there’s an element of “I told you so”, you refused to listen, so let the games begin.

    Agree but my eldest starting post primary next yr I worry for her education. Common level assessments are pi$$ poor relation to the existing higher/ordinary level system currently in place. She will stress herself to make everything perfect (20 odd give or take CBA's) and a dumbed down curriculum in a lot of cases. It's all fun & games until someone gets hurt


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    #72
    dory
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 4,501 Mod ✭✭✭✭dory


    happywithlife wrote: »
    Agree but my eldest starting post primary next yr I worry for her education. Common level assessments are pi$$ poor relation to the existing higher/ordinary level system currently in place. She will stress herself to make everything perfect (20 odd give or take CBA's) and a dumbed down curriculum in a lot of cases. It's all fun & games until someone gets hurt

    It's a pity parents didn't get up in arms at the time.

    At our JCT training day yer one doing the Irish told us we were obsessed with exams because we asked if they knew yet what would be on the exam. Was quite confrontational when she wanted to avoid a question. She hadn't a clue what was coming down the line.


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    #73
    happywithlife
    Registered Users Posts: 1,324 ✭✭✭happywithlife


    dory wrote: »
    It's a pity parents didn't get up in arms at the time.
    .

    Agree. Problem is when first mooted parents turned in to Junior cycle were those who had kids IN junior cert ....wouldn't affect their kids so not their fight. And those whom it would affect their kids were still in primary so not clued in. Even as a teacher I'm not au fait with ALL the changes in ALL the subjects so can't expect the ordinary Joe soap to be.
    But it is shocking - even my sister last year rang me asking what The " met expectations" meant on her son's results. Schools have a lot of work to do I think to explain it to parents and I think the parents council gas been remiss in not explaining it or highlighting it more either


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    #74
    sandyxxx
    Registered Users Posts: 239 ✭✭sandyxxx


    happywithlife wrote: »
    Agree but my eldest starting post primary next yr I worry for her education. Common level assessments are pi$$ poor relation to the existing higher/ordinary level system currently in place. She will stress herself to make everything perfect (20 odd give or take CBA's) and a dumbed down curriculum in a lot of cases. It's all fun & games until someone gets hurt

    ......agreed,wouldn’t want mine to be entering the secondary system anytime soon,far too much up in the air..

    There’ll be huge inconsistencies in both the assessment & delivery across the board,from school to school and even teacher to teacher....like the jc coding & to some extent project maths they(above bodies!) expect teachers and pilot schools to create the content and write the courses for them!.........I’m inclined to take a back seat until it all levels out.


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    #75
    dory
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 4,501 Mod ✭✭✭✭dory


    sandyxxx wrote: »
    I’m inclined to take a back seat until it all levels out.

    Me too. I'm going into year 2 now of teaching a new Irish course, and I'm not freaking out about the level of literature we're meant to do with them or the up-in-the-air assessment. Let the NCCA/JCT people figure out what they want from us and get back to us when they're good and ready.


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    #76
    clunked
    Registered Users Posts: 369 ✭✭clunked


    Here’s some lovely concise information from JCT..,
    Getting ready for September. Considerations for your department meeting. Engagement and learning are optimized by a fully integrated experience across the three interconnected strands and through the three elements.


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    #77
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    The NCCA are pointless now and we know (going by staff reports) they've been stepped over by the higher ups. If you recall the recent allegations of systemic bullying, staff working there were saying that research they undertook on good practice was being ignored in favour of pursuing the new UK curriculum. I don't know where that story went or is it under investigation. It came out around the time of the women coming forward from the theatre director guy.

    But anyway it is what it is, I'm confident enough in keeping aligned to the old course to get students ready for the LC. But for other subjects like science where stuff is being cut out and hours reduced!!


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    #78
    maynooth_rules
    Registered Users Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭maynooth_rules


    I didn't realise until yesterday how disappointing the kids find the new Descriptors for the Junior Cycle. So many good good kids getting 'merit', then kids who haven't don't a tap all year getting 'partially acheived' rather than calling it what it is, a fail. There was a lot of parents in our school for the results opening and they were all quite negative about the grading in English. How have we let this happen! There was nothing wrong with the regular A, B, C grading. Pointless change for the sake of it.


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    #79
    Icsics
    Registered Users Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭Icsics


    maynooth_rules wrote: »
    I didn't realise until yesterday how disappointing the kids find the new Descriptors for the Junior Cycle. So many good good kids getting 'merit', then kids who haven't don't a tap all year getting 'partially acheived' rather than calling it what it is, a fail. There was a lot of parents in our school for the results opening and they were all quite negative about the grading in English. How have we let this happen! There was nothing wrong with the regular A, B, C grading. Pointless change for the sake of it.

    Until it's your own kids or your own subject people won't realise how grossly unfair the new bands are. Practically impossible to get a Distinction & too wide bands, meaning and old B & C are in the same band. It's very unfair on the good kids.
    This is why we were on strike & losing pay, but when TUI capitulated the game was up


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    #80
    maynooth_rules
    Registered Users Posts: 1,502 ✭✭✭maynooth_rules


    Icsics wrote: »
    Until it's your own kids or your own subject people won't realise how grossly unfair the new bands are. Practically impossible to get a Distinction & too wide bands, meaning and old B & C are in the same band. It's very unfair on the good kids.
    This is why we were on strike & losing pay, but when TUI capitulated the game was up
    It's not even my subject, but just from speaking to the kids and their teachers I could tell how horribly unfair it is. English teacher telling me that a child getting 50 and a child getting 74 will get the same comment.... Lunacy. The junior Cycle results day will be a mockery once its in place for all subjects.


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    #81
    Icsics
    Registered Users Posts: 2,047 ✭✭✭Icsics


    maynooth_rules wrote: »
    It's not even my subject, but just from speaking to the kids and their teachers I could tell how horribly unfair it is. English teacher telling me that a child getting 50 and a child getting 74 will get the same comment.... Lunacy. The junior Cycle results day will be a mockery once its in place for all subjects.

    That's for sure maynooth, the JC will be meaningless.


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    #82
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Just to play devil's advocate... maybe it's about time that the emphasis was removed from the exam as being a mini-leaving cert.


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    #83
    Mountainsandh
    Registered Users Posts: 6,700 ✭✭✭Mountainsandh


    Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »
    It's a joke, we all know it's a joke. We've voiced our concerns, they haven't been listened to and now we move on. In a few years, we will all see what a farce this is and will revert to more academic-based approaches.

    That is after the LC has been tinkered with, followed by universities and employers complaining about our graduates and then the big turnaround.

    And we will all say "We told you so but you didn't want to listen". Too many vested interested and too much money to be saved in the immediate future from the education budget.

    Exactly my thoughts.
    It's a disaster tbh.


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    #84
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    evolving_doors wrote: »
    Just to play devil's advocate... maybe it's about time that the emphasis was removed from the exam as being a mini-leaving cert.
    Fair enough.
    Why?


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    #85
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    RealJohn wrote: »
    Fair enough.
    Why?

    Cos it's just gaming the system!
    It's teaching to an exam as opposed to teaching a curriculum. I think the learning outcomes were put in to make it a little bit more vague. Students have to prove to themselves and teacher/examiner that they can reflect (to some degree anyway).


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    #86
    RealJohn
    Registered Users Posts: 2,099 ✭✭✭RealJohn


    evolving_doors wrote: »
    Cos it's just gaming the system!
    It's teaching to an exam as opposed to teaching a curriculum. I think the learning outcomes were put in to make it a little bit more vague. Students have to prove to themselves and teacher/examiner that they can reflect (to some degree anyway).
    Well I certainly agree that teaching to the exam is bad (and I find it very frustrating when colleagues make it clear to me that that’s exactly what they’re doing, rather than teaching for mastery of their/our subject - as a qualified maths teacher with a love for the subject, as distinct from the colleagues I refer to on both grounds I suspect), but I suspect we’d have to remove the exams and any formal, certified assessment entirely in order to move away from this.

    I wouldn’t be opposed to that, by the way. I just don’t see it happening.


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    #87
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,754 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    evolving_doors wrote: »
    Cos it's just gaming the system!
    It's teaching to an exam as opposed to teaching a curriculum. I think the learning outcomes were put in to make it a little bit more vague. Students have to prove to themselves and teacher/examiner that they can reflect (to some degree anyway).

    Not a teacher, so firstly excuse the amateur opinion. To my mind if the teacher can enthuse an interest in the student for a subject that student is considerably more likely to do well in that subject. Over emphasis on the importance of final exams detracts from this, both for the teacher and student, to the detriment of all concerned. The exam should really be no more than a quality control to measure how well the student is getting on, and not interfere with the teaching and learning process beyond that. Interestingly, in the ET secondary my youngest attends they've decided to reduce the number of JC exam subjects to the department of education minimum as a mechanism to alleviate the negative effect of final exams. While anecdotal with a sample of one, I see my daughter both achieving very well and really enjoying her school time in this environment.

    Having an older girl who just finished the leaving this year and who needed a lot of points for her preferred course, we naturally sat down with her at the start of fifth year and figured out how to play the system, dropping to pass level for subjects that wouldn't count towards her points total. It's unfortunate to have to do this, but them's the breaks.


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    #88
    MathsManiac
    Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭MathsManiac


    RealJohn wrote: »
    Well I certainly agree that teaching to the exam is bad (and I find it very frustrating when colleagues make it clear to me that that’s exactly what they’re doing, rather than teaching for mastery of their/our subject - as a qualified maths teacher with a love for the subject, as distinct from the colleagues I refer to on both grounds I suspect), but I suspect we’d have to remove the exams and any formal, certified assessment entirely in order to move away from this.

    I wouldn’t be opposed to that, by the way. I just don’t see it happening.

    Well that's what Ruadhrí wanted to do, (get SEC out of it and leave it up to each school to set the assessments it wanted) but he capitulated in the face of teacher opposition to it.


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    #89
    Blaizes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 809 ✭✭✭Blaizes


    https://www.sligosudburyschool.com

    Heard about this school last week through an article in The Irish Times.It's a school with no set curriculum.


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    #90
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Blaizes wrote: »
    https://www.sligosudburyschool.com

    Heard about this school last week through an article in The Irish Times.It's a school with no set curriculum.

    How do they matriculate for CAO/university ?


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    #91
    Blaizes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 809 ✭✭✭Blaizes


    evolving_doors wrote: »
    How do they matriculate for CAO/university ?

    Honestly I have absolutely no idea! It's a novel idea to me but as to how it would all pan out I just don't know.


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