Match Thread: Pro14 Final - Leinster v Scarlets, Saturday 26th, 2018. Sky Sports, TG4

Former Former

Probably posted a dozen times already but how important was the Lowe try and the decision to go for the corner? Most teams would have taken three points with the clock red, but Leinster have been doing this a lot this season. 21-11 at halftime put a very different slant on things.

On a related note, Cronin's throwing has been ultra-reliable this year.

prawnsambo

Former Former wrote: »

Probably posted a dozen times already but how important was the Lowe try and the decision to go for the corner? Most teams would have taken three points with the clock red, but Leinster have been doing this a lot this season. 21-11 at halftime put a very different slant on things.

On a related note, Cronin's throwing has been ultra-reliable this year.

His throw for his own try was as wobbly as feck.

Rigor Mortis

Just watched that back.

Toner was phenomenal. Ayn other day and he'd have had a good shout of man of the match.

Lowe still has defensive problems but god he is incredible

Sexton played brilliantly but the reaction to the hit was nuts. I know he gets targetted but that really wasnt all that bad of a hit.

Scarlets just play lovely rugby

stephen_n

penybont exile wrote: »

Enjoyed the game .... no doubt Leinster are a formidable and well coached team.

Best team in Europe .... no argument with that either.

However they got a lot of help from the (very poor) officials yesterday.

1) Lost count of the number of forward passes. [The pop from RK to JS referred to earlier on this thread was dubious too .... only seen it once mind]. Had a wry smile hearing the TV commentator referring to Leinster's flat passing game ...... forward passing is more accurate. [Makes getting over the gain line a tad easier].

2) Persistent offside from the kick chasers either from JS but especially from LM. [Don't understand why the touch judges are not policing this part of the game].

3) Some crooked line-outs ...... one of them roughly on half-way was laughable.

4) Finally ........ looks like any bump on JS seems to be greeted with hysteria by the Dublin masses. Getting beyond a joke. JS asking for the TV replay was bad form too. [The referee should have had a word with him there].

As for the venue choice ... I've got no issue with it.

Anyway moan over .... summer tours here we go .....

Well you could say from a Leinster perspective that they were poor, letting the Scarlets players flop over rucks and slow the ball down. Or clearing out 3m beyond rucks. The lineouts were a mess, Berry would tell Scarlets to open the gap, Samson lee would stand in the middle of the channel and he would do nothing about it.

The hit on Sexton was shoulder to the head and was a yellow card, there was no dipping from Sexton, nothing to change where he would hit. It was a deliberate high hit. Scarlets did exactly what was suggested yesterday, with consistent late hits on Sexton. You claim poor officiating, well not protecting Sexton was top of the list.

foxyladyxx

stephen_n wrote: »

Well you could say from a Leinster perspective that they were poor, letting the Scarlets players flop over rucks and slow the ball down. Or clearing out 3m beyond rucks. The lineouts were a mess, Berry would tell Scarlets to open the gap, Samson lee would stand in the middle of the channel and he would do nothing about it.

The hit on Sexton was shoulder to the head and was a yellow card, there was no dipping from Sexton, nothing to change where he would hit. It was a deliberate high hit. Scarlets did exactly what was suggested yesterday, with consistent late hits on Sexton. You claim poor officiating, well not protecting Sexton was top of the list.

For sure . I saw some late challenges on Sexton [some almost off the ball] / .I think the one mentioned above was just the last straw for Sexton having taken so many knocks to the head area.

Dave_The_Sheep

foxyladyxx wrote: »

For sure . I saw some late challenges on Sexton [some almost off the ball] / .I think the one mentioned above was just the last straw for Sexton having taken so many knocks to the head area.

I thought the initial challenge was fine, but the secondary player coming in was shoulder to head. I think a lot of (Welsh) people think the penalty was for the former rather than the latter.

Podge_irl

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

I thought the initial challenge was fine, but the secondary player coming in was shoulder to head. I think a lot of (Welsh) people think the penalty was for the former rather than the latter.

The penalty was for the former. The TMO briefly mentioned the latter but named Scarlets 7 as the offender (who I think at least was the initial tackler).

prawnsambo

Podge_irl wrote: »

The penalty was for the former. The TMO briefly mentioned the latter but named Scarlets 7 as the offender (who I think at least was the initial tackler).

Scott Williams was the first tackler I thought?

irishbucsfan

Scarlets 7 was James Davies, who was the player coming in 2nd. Scott Williams was the tackler

However I thought the ref was talking about Williams and the TMO mentioned Davies but the ref was more interested in the first challenge.

I've no real problem with the decision. It was marginally high. Williams got a little unlucky. That's about that for me.

prawnsambo

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Scarlets 7 was James Davies, who was the player coming in 2nd. Scott Williams was the tackler

However I thought the ref was talking about Williams and the TMO mentioned Davies but the ref was more interested in the first challenge.

I've no real problem with the decision. It was marginally high. Williams got a little unlucky. That's about that for me.

I thought the new tackle laws (introduced last season) stipulated that a tackle that starts below the line of the shoulders but slips up is treated the same as if it had initially made contact with the head.

Buer

Bit bitter of Pivac to be trying to use Leinster's "big budget" as a reason as to why they've been successful whilst highlighting that Scarlets have to develop local players.

12 of Leinster's starting side came through their underage set up with Nacewa and Lowe being the only non-Irish players and neither of them were very high profile signings. Scarlets had 3 foreign players in their starting line up, none high profile signings either.

There are legitimate advantages that Leinster possess over their rivals but trying to make Leinster out to be a big budget team whose success is reliant on that is disingenuous.

Podge_irl

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Scarlets 7 was James Davies, who was the player coming in 2nd. Scott Williams was the tackler

However I thought the ref was talking about Williams and the TMO mentioned Davies but the ref was more interested in the first challenge.

I've no real problem with the decision. It was marginally high. Williams got a little unlucky. That's about that for me.

Ah ok, got that one wrong so.

There was almost no conversation about the second tackler, it was a bit of an odd discussion.

OldRio

penybont exile wrote: »

Enjoyed the game .... no doubt Leinster are a formidable and well coached team.

Best team in Europe .... no argument with that either.

However they got a lot of help from the (very poor) officials yesterday.

1) Lost count of the number of forward passes. [The pop from RK to JS referred to earlier on this thread was dubious too .... only seen it once mind]. Had a wry smile hearing the TV commentator referring to Leinster's flat passing game ...... forward passing is more accurate. [Makes getting over the gain line a tad easier].

2) Persistent offside from the kick chasers either from JS but especially from LM. [Don't understand why the touch judges are not policing this part of the game].

3) Some crooked line-outs ...... one of them roughly on half-way was laughable.

4) Finally ........ looks like any bump on JS seems to be greeted with hysteria by the Dublin masses. Getting beyond a joke. JS asking for the TV replay was bad form too. [The referee should have had a word with him there].

As for the venue choice ... I've got no issue with it.

Anyway moan over .... summer tours here we go .....

Predictable but your anguish sustains me.

molloyjh

penybont exile wrote: »

Enjoyed the game .... no doubt Leinster are a formidable and well coached team.

Best team in Europe .... no argument with that either.

However they got a lot of help from the (very poor) officials yesterday.

1) Lost count of the number of forward passes. [The pop from RK to JS referred to earlier on this thread was dubious too .... only seen it once mind]. Had a wry smile hearing the TV commentator referring to Leinster's flat passing game ...... forward passing is more accurate. [Makes getting over the gain line a tad easier].

2) Persistent offside from the kick chasers either from JS but especially from LM. [Don't understand why the touch judges are not policing this part of the game].

3) Some crooked line-outs ...... one of them roughly on half-way was laughable.

4) Finally ........ looks like any bump on JS seems to be greeted with hysteria by the Dublin masses. Getting beyond a joke. JS asking for the TV replay was bad form too. [The referee should have had a word with him there].

As for the venue choice ... I've got no issue with it.

Anyway moan over .... summer tours here we go .....

I have to admit to finding this post amusing. No mention I see of the forward pass for the first Scarlets try. No mention of Scarlets being ahead of Patchell at almost every restart, making it easier to regain possession there. No mention of Scarlets players consistently falling onto the Leinster side at ruck time to slow down the ball. No mention of the consistent lack of gap in the line out. No mention of the legit high tackle. No mention of the fact that Sexton was captain, and as a part of his job he has to communicate with the ref and question stuff.

I don't rate Berry as a ref. He was poor in the RDS against Munster and poor on Saturday too. He seems to let a hell of a lot of stuff go across numerous areas. But he was bad for both sides and both sides had to contend with that. There's no point whinging about it when it affected everyone out there.

Squatter

molloyjh wrote: »

I don't rate Berry as a ref. He was poor in the RDS against Munster and poor on Saturday too. He seems to let a hell of a lot of stuff go across numerous areas. But he was bad for both sides and both sides had to contend with that. There's no point whinging about it when it affected everyone out there.

Yep.

Fortunately, in rugby bad refs mainly affect one's enjoyment of the game rather than affecting the result.

molloyjh

Squatter wrote: »

Yep.

Fortunately, in rugby bad refs mainly affect one's enjoyment of the game rather than affecting the result.

Only if you allow it to. I had an uncle behind me going mad over the obstruction of our kick chasers. But that happens in every game, all the time. So get over it and move on. Sure, make a bit of noise when something is missed or whatever, but forget about and move on then. There's no point letting something you have no control over ruin your enjoyment of a game.

Berry wasn't great, but he wasn't so bad as to spoil the contest. Like the ads say, if the fun stops, stop. What's the point in going to games if not to enjoy them?

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

Only if you allow it to. I had an uncle behind me going mad over the obstruction of our kick chasers. But that happens in every game, all the time. So get over it and move on. Sure, make a bit of noise when something is missed or whatever, but forget about and move on then. There's no point letting something you have no control over ruin your enjoyment of a game.

Berry wasn't great, but he wasn't so bad as to spoil the contest. Like the ads say, if the fun stops, stop. What's the point in going to games if not to enjoy them?

I agree though it's probably easier to do when your team ultimately win. Regardless, Leinster were a lot better than Scarlets. The score was much closer than the match was and the ref played little part in that. Scarlets showed up but Leinster outclassed them in most facets of the game.

arsebiscuits1

Highlight of the match for me.

Williams gives his scummy high hit on Johnny, then goads him as words are exchanged while J10 is getting treatment.

Sexton responds by a peach of a kick to the corner immediately followed by a try.

Perfect message.

Also a great moment that was missed by most but Sexton was standing guard at a ruck and words were being said to Williams who was the tackled player. I am sure they were complimentary :pac:

molloyjh

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree though it's probably easier to do when your team ultimately win. Regardless, Leinster were a lot better than Scarlets. The score was much closer than the match was and the ref played little part in that. Scarlets showed up but Leinster outclassed them in most facets of the game.

There have been very few games that I've seen where the ref ultimately dictated the result in any way. And that's about the only scenario I'd allow an officials performance to wind me up. Generally after games we lose it's the performance of our own guys I'd focus on, because more often than not a loss is down to us being the inferior team on the day.

Squatter

molloyjh wrote: »

There have been very few games that I've seen where the ref ultimately dictated the result in any way. And that's about the only scenario I'd allow an officials performance to wind me up. Generally after games we lose it's the performance of our own guys I'd focus on, because more often than not a loss is down to us being the inferior team on the day.

The Saffie ref. that we had for the away game in Edinboro' definitely made a significant contribution to us losing that game. (Although to be fair, some of our defending that night was at what you might describe as Matt O'Connor levels!)

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

There have been very few games that I've seen where the ref ultimately dictated the result in any way. And that's about the only scenario I'd allow an officials performance to wind me up. Generally after games we lose it's the performance of our own guys I'd focus on, because more often than not a loss is down to us being the inferior team on the day.

The 2nd and 3rd Lions tests should have gone to the AB's imo and Sco v Aus in the WC come to mind but it's rare enough to be something obvious at least.

PhlegmyMoses

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Highlight of the match for me.

Williams gives his scummy high hit on Johnny, then goads him as words are exchanged while J10 is getting treatment.

Sexton responds by a peach of a kick to the corner immediately followed by a try.

Perfect message.

Also a great moment that was missed by most but Sexton was standing guard at a ruck and words were being said to Williams who was the tackled player. I am sure they were complimentary :pac:

Just before the Cronin try after that wonder kick, the pack were sauntering down the pitch to the lineout and Big Dev was roaring at them to get a score and kill the game off the whole way doiwn. Got the crowd going on my side and was a rarely seen side from Dev. He was pumped!

Rigor Mortis

Deleted User wrote: »

The 2nd and 3rd Lions tests should have gone to the AB's imo and Sco v Aus in the WC come to mind but it's rare enough to be something obvious at least.

Generally though that means the ref made a bad decision in the last two minutes, when there is no coming back from it.

Burkie1203

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

Generally though that means the ref made a bad decision in the last two minutes, when there is no coming back from it.

Wayne Barnes pinging Ferris v Wales in 2012

Rigor Mortis

I'm just amazed no one (Awec) hasn't mentioned Garces sending off Payne v Saracens in 2014. I refuse to believe that he has been forgiven

molloyjh

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

Generally though that means the ref made a bad decision in the last two minutes, when there is no coming back from it.

Even at that, there's 78 other minutes in a game. If you need a decision to go your way in the last 2 mins to win the game then you've no real right to claim you should have won it. Maybe if it was a genuinely really close game between 2 evenly matched teams, then there might be cause for complaint, but not much. A dodgy red card decision or something along those lines would be more understandable.

Squatter

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

I'm just amazed no one (Awec) hasn't mentioned Garces sending off Payne v Saracens in 2014. I refuse to believe that he has been forgiven

Unfortunately for Payne and Ulster that was the flavour of the month red card at the time! The new directive was still hot off the press and every ref was just longing for an opportunity to apply it as soon as he got any opportunity!

For all the complaining, Leinster conceded 13 penalties in total in the SF and Final with Berry reffing. The majority of those were perfectly fair. So obviously kept largely on the correct side of him.

stephen_n

Jaxxon Itchy Headboard wrote: »

For all the complaining, Leinster conceded 13 penalties in total in the SF and Final with Berry reffing. The majority of those were perfectly fair. So obviously kept largely on the correct side of him.

I think most of the complaining is him not penalising things though, he has a very hands off approach.

awec

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

I'm just amazed no one (Awec) hasn't mentioned Garces sending off Payne v Saracens in 2014. I refuse to believe that he has been forgiven

I reckon that red card cost us a heineken cup.

Burkie1203

Welsh fans still moaning Bout the final being in Aviva.

connemara man

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Welsh fans still moaning Bout the final being in Aviva.

I forgot the first rule of Twitter today. Don't interact with Welsh fans

.ak

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Highlight of the match for me.

Williams gives his scummy high hit on Johnny, then goads him as words are exchanged while J10 is getting treatment.

Sexton responds by a peach of a kick to the corner immediately followed by a try.

Perfect message.

Also a great moment that was missed by most but Sexton was standing guard at a ruck and words were being said to Williams who was the tackled player. I am sure they were complimentary :pac:

Also in the 2nd half Williams tried to jam around a ruck and Sexton just absolutely flung him to the ground with a thud, got a big reaction from the west stand, like he was putting him in his place :pac:

Buer

.ak wrote: »

Also in the 2nd half Williams tried to jam around a ruck and Sexton just absolutely flung him to the ground with a thud, got a big reaction from the west stand, like he was putting him in his place :pac:

Quite reminiscent of the 2009 D'Arcy try, Sexton gave him a right earful whilst he was on the ground. Sky Sports did some analysis on Sexton's play in the first half which included him being hit late multiple times. It was almost certainly a pre-planned tactic to rough him up.

Which backfired impressively.

molloyjh

Buer wrote: »

Quite reminiscent of the 2009 D'Arcy try, Sexton gave him a right earful whilst he was on the ground. Sky Sports did some analysis on Sexton's play in the first half which included him being hit late multiple times. It was almost certainly a pre-planned tactic to rough him up.

Which backfired impressively.

Some day soon teams will learn that it's very, very difficult to put Sexton off using these tactics. The only times it's ever worked has been when it has led to injury and he simply wasn't able to stay on the pitch. I get you want to put big players under pressure, especially 10s, but surely the risk-reward in targeting Sexton like that simply isn't worth it when you consider the number of penalties and cards you could end up giving up?

errlloyd

molloyjh wrote: »

Some day soon teams will learn that it's very, very difficult to put Sexton off using these tactics. The only times it's ever worked has been when it has led to injury and he simply wasn't able to stay on the pitch. I get you want to put big players under pressure, especially 10s, but surely the risk-reward in targeting Sexton like that simply isn't worth it when you consider the number of penalties and cards you could end up giving up?

I've always liked rugby being a game where really wanting to win makes a huge difference. In soccer you can overplay; try too hard. In Rugby you're in this constant battle against exhaustion, and the motivation to get back up, get in the line, and make the next hit is hugely important. The other risk is that cheap shots can motivate the opposition. Furlong put in an absolutely huge hit on Williams not long after that incident. Completely dominant.

When Larmour scored I knew we had won the game, not just because we had a big lead, but because when Larmour scored there was no one home. Halfpenny was around the 10 metre on the other side the pitch! It just seemed like the fight had gone out of Scarlets at that point. Leinster had been losing the fight 5 minutes earlier, Williams hit Sexton and we had two tries very quickly.

arsebiscuits1

Question I actually forgot about until rewatching. May have been answered previously in the thread.

When Shingler made the big break off Beirnes offload from his intercept (the one where Shinglergot injured) surely Beirne was offside initially?

Dev caught the ball from the lineout, Beirne landed on the wrong side. Maul was formed and therefore so was the offside line So when Dev popped the ball to Luke Beirne caught it in an offside position no?

Buer

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Dev caught the ball from the lineout, Beirne landed on the wrong side. Maul was formed and therefore so was the offside line So when Dev popped the ball to Luke Beirne caught it in an offside position no?

Toner would be doing well to pop it into the air to the scrum half if a maul had formed!

molloyjh

errlloyd wrote: »

I've always liked rugby being a game where really wanting to win makes a huge difference. In soccer you can overplay; try too hard. In Rugby you're in this constant battle against exhaustion, and the motivation to get back up, get in the line, and make the next hit is hugely important. The other risk is that cheap shots can motivate the opposition. Furlong put in an absolutely huge hit on Williams not long after that incident. Completely dominant.

When Larmour scored I knew we had won the game, not just because we had a big lead, but because when Larmour scored there was no one home. Halfpenny was around the 10 metre on the other side the pitch! It just seemed like the fight had gone out of Scarlets at that point. Leinster had been losing the fight 5 minutes earlier, Williams hit Sexton and we had two tries very quickly.

I was sure we we going to win before Isa even went off. We were up for it. I was asked before the game who I thought would win and my answer was that if Leinster had managed to recover and didn't have fatigue as a factor, they would win without doubt. The only doubt I had was over our fitness. And we showed in that opening quarter that we were up for the fight and we were physically in a good place. Even when they went ahead I wasn't worried. We were dominant from the off.

arsebiscuits1

Buer wrote: »

Toner would be doing well to pop it into the air to the scrum half if a maul had formed!

Took the liberty of looking back at it. https://ok.ru/video/1459932760593?fromTime=2472

You only need 1 player bound from each side and the ball carrier to form a maul. Would be pretty easy to pop it out if only one player was bound on

Scarlets were definetely bound and driving. Conan was kind of bound as was Ruddock but probably a bit of a stretch to call it a maul. So technically it was open play and Beirne was onside.

However he's clearly been thrown accross the gap and continued on his merry way into our territory and should have been penalised.

Poor call. Didn't affect the game so much just that moment stood out and as I had wondered what the hell had happeend

Squatter

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Poor call. Didn't affect the game so much just that moment stood out and as I had wondered what the hell had happened

Me too. Nice to have it explained to my satisfaction, thanks!

prawnsambo

Leinster recognising the work of the Sky Sports cameraman.

The records being referred to are the attendance record, the fact that Sean Cronin is the first player to sccore a try iin three different finals, Johnny McNicholl getting a hat trick in a final and Jordan Larmour being the youngest to score a try in a final.

Squatter

prawnsambo wrote: »

Leinster recognising the work of the Sky Sports cameraman.

The records being referred to are the attendance record, the fact that Sean Cronin is the first player to sccore a try iin three different finals, Johnny McNicholl getting a hat trick in a final and Jordan Larmour being the youngest to score a try in a final.

Not forgetting the first ever Celtic League/Pro 14 final to be reffed by a South African! :P

Webbs

Buer wrote: »

Bit bitter of Pivac to be trying to use Leinster's "big budget" as a reason as to why they've been successful whilst highlighting that Scarlets have to develop local players.

12 of Leinster's starting side came through their underage set up with Nacewa and Lowe being the only non-Irish players and neither of them were very high profile signings. Scarlets had 3 foreign players in their starting line up, none high profile signings either.

There are legitimate advantages that Leinster possess over their rivals but trying to make Leinster out to be a big budget team whose success is reliant on that is disingenuous.

But what he said was true no? Leinster do have a bigger budget than Scarlets.

It is obviously one of many reasons why Leinster are better. Its why Man City are better than Everton for example, you could use any pro sport and the more money the more success. Its not bitter its more likely a call to the WRU to invest more if they can.
Figures show Welsh Regions get around 5.5m euro playing budget each, whereas the Irish regions share a pot in excess of 40m euro (not all playing budget obviously) and Leinster would certainly be getting more than 25% of that 40m (been suggested Leinster have around 8m euro as playing budget?)

Also beggars the question what the hell are the French and English doing with all their cash as they get loads more than anyone (that is more to do with player management though am sure)

irishbucsfan

Webbs wrote: »

But what he said was true no? Leinster do have a bigger budget than Scarlets.

It is obviously one of many reasons why Leinster are better. Its why Man City are better than Everton for example, you could use any pro sport and the more money the more success. Its not bitter its more likely a call to the WRU to invest more if they can.
Figures show Welsh Regions get around 5.5m euro playing budget each, whereas the Irish regions share a pot in excess of 40m euro (not all playing budget obviously) and Leinster would certainly be getting more than 25% of that 40m.

He said that Scarlets would never be able to use 55 players in a Pro 14 season.

According to Opta, Ospreys used 56 players this season. Scarlets used 53. Dragons used 62. Cardiff used 50.

And the vast majority of the players Leinster used were local guys on small contracts.

But even if it was true that the gap was as large as some Welsh outlets would have you believe (which requires extremely suspect and uneven accounting), the IRFU and WRU get almost the exact same revenue streams. If there is a difference, it's entirely of Welsh Rugby's own creation. So rather than moaning about it, they should finally do something about it. Of course the media will continue to sell this story, but the answer does not lie anywhere else.

There's a pretty clear insinuation when Pivac is talking about budgets, that Leinster have bought success. The few signings certainly have helped but this is a home grown team.

awec

Well there's obviously a very healthy budget to be able to produce so many players and be able to afford to keep them all.

awec

awec wrote: »

Well there's obviously a very healthy budget to be able to produce so many players and be able to afford to keep them all.

Stop trolling.

awec

Jaxxon Itchy Headboard wrote: »

Stop trolling.

It's not money that's making you lose Carbery or Murphy.

arsebiscuits1

My favourite part of Pivacs budget little club comments are that Beirne took a pay cut to come to Munster :pac: