Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2018 pt3

Drumpot

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Couple of things there - primarily, that my statement is a general truism of football. I'm not attacking or defending any player or manager or team, it's just a fact that if a system is set up to suit certain players, those players will look better, and feel better about what they're doing.

One obvious thing in comparing a world cup against a league campaign is motivation. You know a world cup is a maximum of 7 games every 4 years. That's it. So i'd expect it to be easier mentally for any player to lock in for those 7 games to just do what needs to be done, even if they don't like their role as much. For a league campaign, it's got to all just run together. That's your career, your bread and butter... league after league after league, year after year. So if you're doing things week in week out that you're not a fan of, and don't consider to be 'your game', it'll probably get ya down a bit more. Bit of a slog.

The other side is that not all defensive minded teams are the same, and perhaps those little differences are where the difference in enjoyment of one's role comes in. France looked ready to break at all times, and Pogba had Griezmann and Mbappe largely released from any defensive duties to be ready to break through the lines at a moments notice. It looked like the runs of Griezmann and Mbappe in particular were part of a plan a lot of the time, with other players knowing what they were going to do, and making decisions based on that knowledge. Like the very early Pogba ball to a sprinting Mbappe and the follow up. That football often looks off-the-cuff, but usually isn't.

I don't watch tonnes of Utd matches in full, but i've seen enough to see that it often looks like the front three aren't necessarily on the same page. It doesn't look like it's a cohesive plan to pull defenders around and open space for the onrushing midfielders... it sort of looks like it's up to them to figure out what to do when the break happens - aside from the plan of a header knock-on to a sprinter running behind. That's the one move you can tell was planned and practiced and is very effective as a result - you don't see the same precision and repeated use with other moves I think. So perhaps being a part of a cohesive attacking plan where you're in sync with those ahead of you, acting out a game plan instead of just being expected to pull off magic, makes a similar role much more enjoyable and satisfying.

Should Pogba be doing more with his ability and wages for Utd? Yup, probably. But you can't separate humanity from ability... to get the best of one you have to appeal to the other. For the longer term, you have to make the experience feel good, like there's a goal to be achieved, and a plan to achieve it, and everyone feels better, regardless what your job is.

I would not disagree with a lot of that. However some players do not require the environment to be absolutely perfect for them to thrive. Some players need to be loved and made feel happy, others prioritize winning. Pogba seems to be in the former.

Not just that it’s a question of character and drive if you require specific conditions for you to perform. It’s a mental strength deficiency that separates truly world class individuals from players who have great qualities but lack the courage to push on to achieve their peak.

I find it quite annoying that the modern footballer is afforded the benefit of the doubt and people are quite happy to explain away unprofessional behavior. I don’t believe Pogbas poor performance for united are simply down to poor management. It’s amazing that Jose can lead every team he manages to leagues and champions league but people are all too happy to ignore that fact and presume he’s just a bad manager who can’t even setup an organized team.

Every team but united have won leagues with Jose!!!...

I still also find it funny that Pogba couldn’t find a way to work with SAF, one of the greatest managers of all time. He couldn’t wait and made demands a player in his position had no right to make. So we have a player who was/is incapable of making working with two of the greatest managers of the last 30 years. Do people think the managers are the problem?!

Maybe Pogba isn’t a team player. Maybe unless he gets what he wants or sees an easy win (WC 7 games - Juventus league cakewalks) he’s just not that interested. Joining Barca will help him cause he will only need beat Real Madrid to a title. I’m not convinced he’s a player you want if your team is struggling to find form over a season. This means he’s not the kind of player with the kind of drive or mental strengths that United need right now....

Hococop

~Rebel~ wrote: »

40 million?! Christ, seems a bit steep...
Market's crazy and all that jazz, but still... over 4 times what he moved to them for only 6 months ago, after only 4 starts - one of which was a bloody calamitous performance against Levante.

Worth buying still I think, and will be a good player, but they've some cheek asking for that sort of money at this stage of his career.

Funny how when he is linked to everton the price is 30 million

jimmytwotimes 2013

Hococop wrote: »

Funny how when he is linked to everton the price is 30 million

Bear tax, Homer tax, Everton tax, United tax

https://youtu.be/JtgvWZuyYKc

~Rebel~

Drumpot wrote: »

I would not disagree with a lot of that. However some players do not require the environment to be absolutely perfect for them to thrive. Some players need to be loved and made feel happy, others prioritize winning. Pogba seems to be in the former.

Not just that it’s a question of character and drive if you require specific conditions for you to perform. It’s a mental strength deficiency that separates truly world class individuals from players who have great qualities but lack the courage to push on to achieve their peak.

I find it quite annoying that the modern footballer is afforded the benefit of the doubt and people are quite happy to explain away unprofessional behavior. I don’t believe Pogbas poor performance for united are simply down to poor management. It’s amazing that Jose can lead every team he manages to leagues and champions league but people are all too happy to ignore that fact and presume he’s just a bad manager who can’t even setup an organized team.

Every team but united have won leagues with Jose!!!...

I still also find it funny that Pogba couldn’t find a way to work with SAF, one of the greatest managers of all time. He couldn’t wait and made demands a player in his position had no right to make. So we have a player who was/is incapable of making working with two of the greatest managers of the last 30 years. Do people think the managers are the problem?!

Maybe Pogba isn’t a team player. Maybe unless he gets what he wants or sees an easy win (WC 7 games - Juventus league cakewalks) he’s just not that interested. Joining Barca will help him cause he will only need beat Real Madrid to a title. I’m not convinced he’s a player you want if your team is struggling to find form over a season. This means he’s not the kind of player with the kind of drive or mental strengths that United need right now....

The flipside of Jose though, is the number of attacking players who he's bombed out of clubs and have gone on (swiftly) to be proven quality. We all know the type of guy he likes. A hard-working Willian who runs and works and happily does all the pragmatic stuff. He's brilliant when he has those guys to hand, but struggles to get the best out of the more mercurial types who want to be a part of scintillating attacking football. Which begs the question why the bejesus did Utd even buy Pogba for him anyway. More marketing than footballing reasons I presume?

And whilst Jose wins everywhere, after 2 or so years under his methods, he usually seems to have a few disgruntled players in the ranks. I don't necessarily think his game plan is limited to 2 years, but if he's not working with an entire team who buy fully into what he's all about, attitudes and ideologies start getting in the way. It just feels like there are still quite a few at Utd who think about football in a very different way than he does, and that he hasn't really been backed with the type of players he needs. Perisic, when he wanted him last year for instance, or Willian this year.

Zeek12

Adamcp898 wrote: »

Except, it's not at all though.

The reason I'd rather not sign Boateng is because I don't see the sense in pouring £50 million into CB when it won't solve the problem and worse still, it would mean the required investment in the position would be then less likely to happen and we'd find ourselves stuck in the same position Summer after Summer until the loss is swallowed.

To me, Boateng to United just smacks of another "name" signing that is of convenience to every party except we end up with the butt end of the deal, again. Bayern want rid because he's played his best football and the issues he brings, the player won't budge far because he still wants to get paid, and we see a "name" that is an easy sell to the fans and snap at the opportunity. Been far too many of this type of signing in recent years.

Well said.
This is the nub of the problem as regards our transfer policy.

We keep throwing away transfer funds on long shots that no other top sides would be really interested in.....Schweinsteiger, Rojo, Darmian, Lindelof and others too...

Which has brought us to where we are.
A bloated unbalanced squad padded out with too many average defenders.

If we have failings at CB, they are:
1) lack of leadership
2) not enough consistency and fitness to bed down a solid CB pairing.

Boateng has not been playing well for Bayern.
He had an absolute nightmare at the World Cup.
His decision making at times is calamitous.
He is injury prone.

We already have enough issues with centre backs who cant stay fit.

It seems incredible to think any serious analysis of our defensive weakness has pinpointed this guy as the solution??

Bret Hart

Breaking | Manchester United have turned down a €50m + Yerry Mina & André Gomes offer for Paul Pogba from Barcelona, according to @DiMarzio.

JaMarcus

Di Marzio says that we refused an offer of €50m + Yerry Mina + Andre Gomes from Barcelona.

https://gianlucadimarzio.com/it/il-barcellona-vuole-pogba-ce-lofferta-ma-lo-united-fa-muro

Translation below:

After Vidal, Barcelona wants to bring Paul Pogba to the Camp Nou. This is the will and goal of the club blaugrana, but clashes with the firm intention of Manchester United not to sell the Frenchman. Mourinho and the red devils raise the wall, first of all because they do not want to deprive themselves of such an important player both technically and in terms of image: Pogba is in fact the symbol of the club, what in the NBA would be "the man-franchise ".

And then, another reason, because the incoming market for the Premier League closes on August 9th: only three days therefore, too little to look for a possible replacement at the height. Barcelona presented an offer to Manchester United, considered in any case insufficient and refused: 50 million euros plus the cards of Yerry Mina and Andre Gomes.

Cantona's Collars

https://twitter.com/GFFN/status/1026557328873713666

Breaking | Manchester United have turned down a €50m + Yerry Mina & André Gomes offer for Paul Pogba from Barcelona, according to @DiMarzio.

Adamcp898

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

https://twitter.com/GFFN/status/1026557328873713666

Breaking | Manchester United have turned down a €50m + Yerry Mina & André Gomes offer for Paul Pogba from Barcelona, according to @DiMarzio.

That's like one of those ****ty offers you cobble together in Fifa or Football Manager for the craic to see if it has half a chance.

Turtwig

Bret Hart wrote: »

Breaking | Manchester United have turned down a €50m + Yerry Mina & André Gomes offer for Paul Pogba from Barcelona, according to @DiMarzio.

Jesus that's like offering the leftovers in the dumpster for dessert.

pjohnson

Holy Zerkzinga Batman


I think we rejected a bid from Barca for Pogba.

How Soon Is Now

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

https://twitter.com/GFFN/status/1026557328873713666

Breaking | Manchester United have turned down a €50m + Yerry Mina & André Gomes offer for Paul Pogba from Barcelona, according to @DiMarzio.

Thats the weirdest offer ive seen in a while!


Sounds more like something from a game then real life.

Lord TSC

No chance with that offer

BUT

Does anyone think they'd be offering anything, let alone two players, if Pogba hadn't given the ok for the deal?

Nightmare, tbh. Pretty much moving into some crucial days and now we've got those situation to deal with too

fatherted1969

Cantona's Collars wrote: »

David Maddock: "United were clear they will not go above £40million for the Belgium international defender, who will see his value plummet to just £25m in six months' time.
....Mourinho has told his club board to explore alternatives if Tottenham continue to play hardball over their valuation of around £55m for the 29-year-old."

This is going to go right to the wire I think. Happy to see Levy been taken on in transfers if this is true. We've been bent over often enough by him

Will I Am Not

Here’s 2 players we don’t value at all and 50m. F*ck off Barca.

JaMarcus

Lord TSC wrote: »

No chance with that offer

BUT

Does anyone think they'd be offering anything, let alone two players, if Pogba hadn't given the ok for the deal?

Nightmare, tbh. Pretty much moving into some crucial days and now we've got those situation to deal with too

We have him under contract for another 4 years if we want, very little he can do about it.

It worked out alright when De Gea was trying to force through a move, so I'm not worried in that regard.

I'll give it 24 hours before we see the Barca French contingent of Umtiti, Dembele etc. spouting on about how Pogba was born to play for them though.

J. Marston

Pogba can get fúcked to be honest. Has clearly given the go ahead for it.

Dembele + cash suits me. Pogbye.

Harry Palmr

That's hilarious - Clearly Barca are as desperate to sell as they think Utd are to buy.

How Soon Is Now

Lord TSC wrote: »

No chance with that offer

BUT

Does anyone think they'd be offering anything, let alone two players, if Pogba hadn't given the ok for the deal?

Nightmare, tbh. Pretty much moving into some crucial days and now we've got those situation to deal with too

I have a feeling there is deffo something to this.
I dont trust Pogba at all its clear he looks after number one and isnt a team player. Fergie was to much for him and Jose is the same he doesn't like being made do the hard job.



La liga suit him perfect plenty of flash diva footballers over there allowed do what they like.

bangkok

J. Marston wrote: »

Pogba can get fúcked to be honest. Has clearly given the go ahead for it.

Dembele + cash suits me. Pogbye.

Lol how has he given the go ahead exactly?!

~Rebel~

bangkok wrote: »

Lol how has he given the go ahead exactly?!

One would imagine Barca have done their usual bit of tapping up (see every move they've ever made, ever) and have gotten confirmation that if Utd do agree to their transfer terms, that Pogba is happy with the personal terms they have in mind, and with the move in general.

Lord TSC

bangkok wrote: »

Lol how has he given the go ahead exactly?!

Do you think teams make offers for players if the player (and his agent) haven't signalled to said team they are willing to move?

Otherwise, barca just annoy Mina and Gomes needlessly.


Also, if this goes through, isn't it great that the one first team player we bought was specifically brought in to "free" up a player who is now leaving?

bangkok

Lord TSC wrote: »

Do you think teams make offers for players if the player (and his agent) haven't signalled to said team they are willing to move?

Otherwise, barca just annoy Mina and Gomes needlessly.


Also, if this goes through, isn't it great that the one first team player we bought was specifically brought in to "free" up a player who is now leaving?

they are both for sale anyway, so i doubt they care. Gomes isnt near anywhere good enough for us. hopefully united dont sell

Harry Palmr

Even if Barca's cunning plan doesn't work in the next few days it'll yield results in January or June 2019. We all know how this stuff works by now.

Turtwig

Lord TSC wrote: »

No chance with that offer

BUT

Does anyone think they'd be offering anything, let alone two players, if Pogba hadn't given the ok for the deal?

Nightmare, tbh. Pretty much moving into some crucial days and now we've got those situation to deal with too

I dunno.

Barca's midfield is stacked already. Unless they intend to play him as ten or something I doubt the offer is genuine.

If Pogba were to move - and as a neutral I really hope he doesn't - Juve with Ronaldo up top would suit him in spades. Most teams Barca play sit deeper. I don't think he's suited to disassembling buses tbh.

bangkok

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Even if Barca's cunning plan doesn't work in the next few days it'll yield results in January or June 2019. We all know how this stuff works by now.

hopefully jose be gone by then anyway

~Rebel~

Lord TSC wrote: »

Do you think teams make offers for players if the player (and his agent) haven't signalled to said team they are willing to move?

Otherwise, barca just annoy Mina and Gomes needlessly.


Also, if this goes through, isn't it great that the one first team player we bought was specifically brought in to "free" up a player who is now leaving?

Could see a repeat of the Coutinho bollocks... where yee hang onto him till January or next summer. Be mad to let him go so close to the window shutting, unless their deal includes Dembele at very least. Should be asking for Rakitic as well. Think that'd be a decent move, the pair of them for Pogba would probably see a net improvement in the team.

How Soon Is Now

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Even if Barca's cunning plan doesn't work in the next few days it'll yield results in January or June 2019. We all know how this stuff works by now.

Its only a matter of time before Pogba legs it its been on the cards since Jose dropped him.

pjohnson

Lord TSC wrote: »

Do you think teams make offers for players if the player (and his agent) haven't signalled to said team they are willing to move?

Otherwise, barca just annoy Mina and Gomes needlessly.


Also, if this goes through, isn't it great that the one first team player we bought was specifically brought in to "free" up a player who is now leaving?

Fred is talented enough to still work in a midfield regardless who is beside him. As said before. Shifting on Pogba would allow us to go back to 4-2-3-1 with Mata & Lingard able to play as #10/support Lukaku.


Coutinho/Pjanic would be better part exchange options. Suprised Barca didnt include Alcacer and Cilessen with Gomes & Mina lol.

Lord TSC

Turtwig wrote: »

I dunno.

Barca's midfield is stacked already. Unless they intend to play him as ten or something I doubt the offer is genuine.

If Pogba were to move - and as a neutral I really hope he doesn't - Juve with Ronaldo up top would suit him in spades. Most teams Barca play sit deeper. I don't think he's suited to disassembling buses tbh.

Juventus would have better players for us to ask for too, tbh.

Sandro, Manduzukic....screw it, ask for Dybala.

jimmytwotimes 2013

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Could see a repeat of the Coutinho bollocks... where yee hang onto him till January or next summer. Be mad to let him go so close to the window shutting, unless their deal includes Dembele at very least. Should be asking for Rakitic as well. Think that'd be a decent move, the pair of them for Pogba would probably see a net improvement in the team.

We could ask them for Coutinho and 50m. The scouse would go mental.

Drumpot

~Rebel~ wrote: »

The flipside of Jose though, is the number of attacking players who he's bombed out of clubs and have gone on (swiftly) to be proven quality. We all know the type of guy he likes. A hard-working Willian who runs and works and happily does all the pragmatic stuff. He's brilliant when he has those guys to hand, but struggles to get the best out of the more mercurial types who want to be a part of scintillating attacking football. Which begs the question why the bejesus did Utd even buy Pogba for him anyway. More marketing than footballing reasons I presume?

And whilst Jose wins everywhere, after 2 or so years under his methods, he usually seems to have a few disgruntled players in the ranks. I don't necessarily think his game plan is limited to 2 years, but if he's not working with an entire team who buy fully into what he's all about, attitudes and ideologies start getting in the way. It just feels like there are still quite a few at Utd who think about football in a very different way than he does, and that he hasn't really been backed with the type of players he needs. Perisic, when he wanted him last year for instance, or Willian this year.

Yeh, This is exactly the point I have been making. Pogba wasn’t bought for Jose he was bought for other reasons. Same as 3 of the 4 transfers thus summer where not first team Jose priorities.

What’s the point in spending hundreds of millions on players who aren’t going to work well with a manager? Hell even mata has managed to show the mental strength and work rate to work his way into Jose’s plans. That’s a sign that if you work hard enough you can make it work. But players have it all so easy nowadays a lot don’t see the value in adding this strength to their game.

Supposedly Deshamp even said to Pogba that Jose will make him a better player. I’m not sure Pogba has the humility or drive to add this quality to his game. He believes his own hype and doesn’t appear to be a player who feels he needs to knuckle down at united. It’s the club/manager that’s the problem, not him.

The solution is either offload player or manager. There is no guarantee a new manager will improve things or even get that player to work.

If we look at the last 6 premier league winners (I forget to include united sometimes!), they have all been pathetic at putting in a decent challange of their title. Managers have been the ones to go in every scenario. This empowers the players even more and continues the constant excusing of players unprofessionalism.

The irony for me was that Jose left one of the best squads around in the 00s that even Abrams grant nearly won all honors. That squad picked itself and had the mental strength to win with even di matteo in charge. These are the players who work well with Jose , not the Pogbas who need everything setup to their liking for them to perform.

bangkok

Drumpot wrote: »

Yeh, This is exactly the point I have been making. Pogba wasn’t bought for Jose he was bought for other reasons. Same as 3 of the 4 transfers thus summer where not first team Jose priorities.

What’s the point in spending hundreds of millions on players who aren’t going to work well with a manager? Hell even mata has managed to show the mental strength and work rate to work his way into Jose’s plans. That’s a sign that if you work hard enough you can make it work. But players have it all so easy nowadays a lot don’t see the value in adding this strength to their game.

Supposedly Deshamp even said to Pogba that Jose will make him a better player. I’m not sure Pogba has the humility or drive to add this quality to his game. He believes his own hype and doesn’t appear to be a player who feels he needs to knuckle down at united. It’s the club/manager that’s the problem, not him.

The solution is either offload player or manager. There is no guarantee a new manager will improve things or even get that player to work.

If we look at the last 6 premier league winners (I forget to include united sometimes!), they have all been pathetic at putting in a decent challange of their title. Managers have been the ones to go in every scenario. This empowers the players even more and continues the constant excusing of players unprofessionalism.

The irony for me was that Jose left one of the best squads around in the 00s that even Abrams grant nearly won all honors. That squad picked itself and had the mental strength to win with even di matteo in charge. These are the players who work well with Jose , not the Pogbas who need everything setup to their liking for them to perform.

that is bullsh!t.

Jose was a massive fan of pogba and wanted him at chelsea and then he wanted him at united

J. Marston

If he's off, it's yet another disastrous superstar signing.

Lord TSC

J. Marston wrote: »

If he's off, it's yet another disastrous superstar signing.

I suppose in his time with us, we won the EL one year and then achieved our best league position of the last five years in his second...

Rayne Wooney

Barca have a heavyweight first XI but beyond that their options are pretty awful, and they are trying to land us with two of the deadweights.

I would not be surprised if Pogba did want to move, there is less pressure at Barca and an easier chance of winning trophies, he won’t be expected to be the main man as he isn’t capable of being, he is sideshow Pog, can do some nice things with a football but often finds it hard to apply his talent in a game of football.

If it was the start of the window I’d be saying £180 million and he’s yours, buy two players to replace him. But as it is we probably have the 3rd best squad in the league and replacing Pogba with Mina and Silva is going to make that worse.

Zeek12

Turtwig wrote: »

I dunno.

Barca's midfield is stacked already. Unless they intend to play him as ten or something I doubt the offer is genuine.

If Pogba were to move - and as a neutral I really hope he doesn't - Juve with Ronaldo up top would suit him in spades. Most teams Barca play sit deeper. I don't think he's suited to disassembling buses tbh.

Not so sure about that.....didn't they let Paulinho go?

Vidal with his knee issues wont be playing every game.

And Iniesta gone too....

How Soon Is Now

J. Marston wrote: »

If he's off, it's yet another disastrous superstar signing.

I cant see the club letting him go for marketing and money reasons alone.


Footballing reasons who bloody well knows!


He would have to demand a move and create a fuss to make it happen at this stage its way to late in the window for us to find a replacement.

brinty

Cantona's Collars wrote:

Breaking | Manchester United have turned down a €50m + Yerry Mina & André Gomes offer for Paul Pogba from Barcelona, according to @DiMarzio.

You zerked it mate

jimmytwotimes 2013

We could offer them Jones for free. Just cos it would be funny to see him lining out for Barca. As they're being daft, it'd be good craic.

50m + Coutinho and we talk, other than that bye-bye.

Drumpot

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

I cant see the club letting him go for marketing and money reasons alone.


Footballing reasons who bloody well knows!


He would have to demand a move and create a fuss to make it happen at this stage its way to late in the window for us to find a replacement.

I would absolutely love it if he moved, we got two top top quality players in the fiat team (ala Liverpool - Coutihno) and it all clicked together for Jose/united.

Wouldn’t it be gas or horrible (depending on your stance) if Pogba and Jose wanted the move but it was the owners who wanted to keep a marketing cash cow purely for marketing purposes!

Liam McPoyle

If they want him then the asking price should be Neymar money, up front. If they can't / won't pay it they can pfo.

How Soon Is Now

Drumpot wrote: »

I would absolutely love it if he moved, we got two top top quality players in the fiat team (ala Liverpool - Coutihno) and it all clicked together for Jose/united.

Wouldn’t it be gas or horrible (depending on your stance) if Pogba and Jose wanted the move but it was the owners who wanted to keep a marketing cash cow purely for marketing purposes!

Wouldnt surprise me at all. I doubt Jose give a damn about flash big name signings he just wants people who do a job for him and work for the team and Pogba obviously feels hes better then that.


If Pogba is sold in this window and we dont get anyone in to replace him unfortunately Jose is done anyway.


I think the more likely outcome is Pogba stays and arses around again this season showing he can be great when everything suits him but goes missing when we really need him. He will move on one way or another soon id say unless something major changes the current situation at the club.


If it benefited the team id love to see the back of him. Dont be surprised if the guy turns up with the world cup trophy parading it around Old Trafford like he won it himself.

brinty

Coutinho and Suarez folks... Simples...
Swap Mina for Mike
I don't think that the absent M!Ck^ would be too happy if big Phil goes

Barcelona up to their usual stuff. Alligances aside tell them to get ****ed!

pjohnson

Cash only is stupid. At this stage we need the replacement player handed to us aswell.

Liam McPoyle

brinty wrote: »

Coutinho and Suarez folks... Simples...
Swap Mina for Mike
I don't think that the absent M!Ck^ would be too happy if big Phil goes

I wouldn't want a yoke like Suarez next nor near the club tbh, detestable human, not that he'd join us anyway.

Trigger

Messi or Dembele and they can have him I’m not asking for much

Liam McPoyle

pjohnson wrote: »

Cash only is stupid. At this stage we need the replacement player handed to us aswell.

Dat net spend tho.

bangkok

pogba is back training now anyway, so wouldnt be surprised to see him start v leicester