Giro d'Italia 2018 Stage 21: Roma - Roma, 115 KM

terrydel

Eamonnator wrote: »

Good article from Cycling Tips.
Q.&A. on Fromme's case.

https://cyclingtips.com/2018/05/could-froome-lose-his-giro-or-be-blocked-from-the-tour-a-sports-lawyer-qa/

What jumps out there is what I've said all along, sky are using their resources to 'buy' doubt, ala OJ Simpson. If youve enough money you can always do it, but it does not make you innocent.

Djoucer

Fairly sure I heard Kelly describe pizza/descents/Kirby/the weather as unbelieveable. It's reaching a fair bit to implicate kelly.

So much commentary around froome has been nonsense. See above or how he changes cadence to suit the discipline he's in.

Maybe he is doping, maybe he isn't.

I just can't see how anyone can enjoy cycling and then pore over every result like a 911 conspiracy theorist.

I take it for what it is. Enjoy the now.

Then in 20 years, we'll all talk about froome like we do now about pantani

GetWithIt

Personally I don't see what form doping would enable you to perform a Landis as it were. 

Landis did blood doping, which would quite clearly give you a massive advantage overnight. Now as it happened he was an eejit and, I think, used blood from a training period when he was on testosterone but that's another matter. The mechanics and physical after effects of blood doping are now well understood and you'd expect to be easily found out.

A few puffs of salbutamol would not have had that effect. 

Most other forms of doping are about training and physical conditioning, not for ingestion during the actual event.

It looked to me like the end of a 400 meter race where the difference in speed is exaggerated as some appear to be going backwards and others sprinting flat out. In reality one has judged their effort better and is slowing down less.

This was a brutal race from the outset and at the end 3 of those who would reasonably have been expected to finish in the top 5 after 18 days (Pinot, Pozz, Yates) ultimately came nowhere 3 days later.

I think Froome and Sky just limited their effort and losses for 2 weeks, allowed everyone else to blow themselves out and then just took advantage when the chance presented itself. It was no more suspicious to me than Fuglsang winning the Dauphine last year.

Now maybe Froome's condition is so much better suited for a 3 week race for other illegitimate reasons but I don't think that's what anyone is identifying.

greenspurs

the UCI give Petacchi with 1360ng/ml a 1 year ban and Ulissi 9 months for 1900ng/ml Salbutamol.
How will the UCI react with this 2000ng/ml of Froome - Although Wada/UCI have amended that count to 1400 , taking into account the dehydration and tiredness of Froome after the stage.
Its strange to "overdose" on something that will get him caught , as he knew he was being tested after every stage , with something that offered little/marginal help towards performance.
I knew it helps him breathe easier, but as he is asthmatic (?) he would be at a disadvantage and would need the salbutamol to compete (?)

Its a very strange occurance, and I think he will get a back dated ban, from the end of the Vuelta to the start of the Giro..... It is the UCI after all.

el tel

I think the main thing is that you can't really reach 2000ng/ml using an inhaler, i.e. the legal method of administration, but you can with a nebuliser or by injection, which are banned.

Inquitus

Secret Pro's view on things - https://cyclingtips.com/2018/05/the-secret-pro-an-insiders-view-on-chris-froomes-crazy-giro-attack/

greenspurs

2018 Giro - fastest ever - average of 40.105kmph.

* I know you have to factor in number of stages/types of stages etc..... but still a wee indicator.

Over the 80km attack - froome made up time :
49% on climbs
29% on descents
22%on flats.

He made on average 2.4 seconds per km over Dumoulin and Co.
All on his own.......
Have seen that he produced 350w power average over the 80km...
(how could you produce that much on descents? when gravity is assisting you, and therefore less resistence to create power ??) so must have been producing much more on climbs and flats !!

Something was't right with his power output being shown on screen .I noticed it and I think others here commented on it too that it was locked at 350w for ages.

harringtonp

GetWithIt wrote: »

Personally I don't see what form doping would enable you to perform a Landis as it were. 

Landis did blood doping, which would quite clearly give you a massive advantage overnight. Now as it happened he was an eejit and, I think, used blood from a training period when he was on testosterone but that's another matter. The mechanics and physical after effects of blood doping are now well understood and you'd expect to be easily found out.

A few puffs of salbutamol would not have had that effect. 

Most other forms of doping are about training and physical conditioning, not for ingestion during the actual event.

It looked to me like the end of a 400 meter race where the difference in speed is exaggerated as some appear to be going backwards and others sprinting flat out. In reality one has judged their effort better and is slowing down less.

This was a brutal race from the outset and at the end 3 of those who would reasonably have been expected to finish in the top 5 after 18 days (Pinot, Pozz, Yates) ultimately came nowhere 3 days later.

I think Froome and Sky just limited their effort and losses for 2 weeks, allowed everyone else to blow themselves out and then just took advantage when the chance presented itself. It was no more suspicious to me than Fuglsang winning the Dauphine last year.

Now maybe Froome's condition is so much better suited for a 3 week race for other illegitimate reasons but I don't think that's what anyone is identifying.

I'd generally be with your line of thinking here. The conspiracy theory stuff has gone ridiculous... like the negative take on "unbelievable" (it's a favorite word down cork direction). Do people really think he poured something undetectable into his body the night before which produced some magic. From my own racing albeit at a far lower level

- You often see a few guys looking at each other while a guy is up the road opening a gap.
It doesn't matter how many bodies are in a chasing group if only one guy is chasing and the others sitting on.

- And even if guys in a small group want to work together it usually goes out the window a bit when the road goes up, down or around loads of tight bends.

- And saving yourself whether for the latter part of a 100 km race of a 3 week tour is huge. Guys sometimes find that while they haven't a hope of getting away early in a 100km race, they can in the latter parts when the main drivers have spun themselves out. The same principle extends more so into 3 weeks tours.

Okay he shouldn't have been racing in the first place but that's not the discussion here.

greenspurs

And I wonder what was in that little purple bottle he drank from?
It looked dodgy, but maybe we are just being paranoid, as it has been said it was a bottle of liquid Ketone... for energy...

harringtonp

greenspurs wrote: »

And I wonder what was in that little purple bottle he drank from?
It looked dodgy, but maybe we are just being paranoid, as it has been said it was a bottle of liquid Ketone... for energy...

Would love to know, if there is something special dish it out

CrowdedHouse

Maybe one of these or similar

https://www.scienceinsport.com/eu/catalog/product/view/id/723/s/sis-go-caffeine-shot-cola-single-2f4d7494c79e58daa42d5d9c17883661/category/174/

What I thought was more unusual was that he took a bottle of water from a spectator, he poured most of it over his head but drank a couple of mouthfuls too, rarely see that nowadays.

MPFGLB

harringtonp wrote: »

I'd generally be with your line of thinking here. The conspiracy theory stuff has gone ridiculous... like the negative take on "unbelievable" (it's a favorite word down cork direction). Do people really think he poured something undetectable into his body the night before which produced some magic. From my own racing albeit at a far lower level

- You often see a few guys looking at each other while a guy is up the road opening a gap.
It doesn't matter how many bodies are in a chasing group if only one guy is chasing and the others sitting on.

- And even if guys in a small group want to work together it usually goes out the window a bit when the road goes up, down or around loads of tight bends.

- And saving yourself whether for the latter part of a 100 km race of a 3 week tour is huge. Guys sometimes find that while they haven't a hope of getting away early in a 100km race, they can in the latter parts when the main drivers have spun themselves out. The same principle extends more so into 3 weeks tours.

Okay he shouldn't have been racing in the first place but that's not the discussion here.

Well I dont know wheather Froome is legit or not but if Greg LeMond, Phillipa York & Bernard Hinault are not buying it...well neither am i

Mind you I was a staunch defender until last October and the adverse findings which as another poster pointed out have had to be through an needle or infused to get the dose discovered

And there is evidence that injected or infused there are benefits to the athlethe ...just ask David Millar

These people know what they are talking about

Froomes performance is in line with a previous era when everyone was on substances ...and these guys should know what one is capable of

And to think Froome up until 2011 couldnt even feature in the top 10 of a race

There is a furore but I think that is understandable give the history of this sport
Quite sick of being condemned as a conspiracy theorist because I dont believe in Froome

Even after the doping failure some people do not want to see what is under their noses

Inquitus

Hinault doped to the hilt, Philippa York's article was hopeless, Lemond I respect so I will go and have a read what he has to say. I am ambivalent about Froome at the moment, but I find it hard to believe he injected or ingested a sufficient amount of Salbutamol on a day as leader or winner of the stage he was guaranteed to be tested.

pelevin

Inquitus wrote: »

Hinault doped to the hilt, Philippa York's article was hopeless, Lemond I respect so I will go and have a read what he has to say. I am ambivalent about Froome at the moment, but I find it hard to believe he injected or ingested a sufficient amount of Salbutamol on a day as leader or winner of the stage he was guaranteed to be tested.

Hinault as far as I know never tested positive for anything yet you without reservation describe him as "doped to the hilt". Was a great of cycling from beginning to end of his career. Froome otoh went from a nobody to cycling great practically overnight in his mid 20s and has tested twice over an apparently very high limit on the day he recovered from suffering badly in the Vuelta to beating everyone a day later. Cycles for a team manager who has no crdibility left, clearly a lying hypocrite, yet it's Froome you're awarding plenty benefit of the doubt to rather than Hinault.

Also regarding "I am ambivalent about Froome at the moment, but I find it hard to believe he injected or ingested a sufficient amount of Salbutamol on a day as leader or winner of the stage he was guaranteed to be tested."

That's actually a very handy defence for anyone ever caught doping. "I find it hard to believe he would take something that would then lead him to being caught for doping. There must be a mistake."

harringtonp

There is a huge amount of scepticism but I'd like to see some well constructed theories on how putting something into ones bodies in the day(s) before the stage both avoids detection and give such an enormous and obvious boost.

Blood doping I understand, out of season steroid use I understand, weight loss through drugs I understand. But (assuming it wasn't blood doping due to the passport system) what can one take to give an enormous boost the day after..... Hard to answer and that's why the case made by GetWithIt above makes most sense to me.

Djoucer

Could you imagine the comments if it was revealed that froome had bullet fragments riddled in his body but still won TDF?

This is the level of conspiracy theory we're getting to. Froome has a drink and it's now a "weird bottle."

If we applied same level of nonsense to LeMond, he'd be run out of town with his mystery "Z" drinks.

Lumen

greenspurs wrote: »

And I wonder what was in that little purple bottle he drank from?
It looked dodgy, but maybe we are just being paranoid, as it has been said it was a bottle of liquid Ketone... for energy...

Exogenous ketones tend to produce massive gastric upset. Can you remember a grand tour winner ever experiencing massive gastric upset whilst riding a race?



AFAIK ketones have the same legal status as fructose. They're just weird food.

Macy0161

I'm only really catching up on my podcasts, and I try not to base suspicion just on performance. However, it seems to me the things being used to explain away the performance are just as much bs as those used to say it indicates doping.

For example, a big thing thats apparently "different" from landis is the sky nutrition. But I'm pretty sure landis and Allen Lim had some nutrition strategy going for that one, including all the bidons over the head.

Like I say, trying to keep an open mind, but as per usual, sky (and commentators) dig the hole deeper by over claiming sky innovation and bringing something new...

pelevin

Macy0161 wrote: »

I'm only really catching up on my podcasts, and I try not to base suspicion just on performance. However, it seems to me the things being used to explain away the performance are just as much bs as those used to say it indicates doping.

For example, a big thing thats apparently "different" from landis is the sky nutrition. But I'm pretty sure landis and Allen Lim had some nutrition strategy going for that one, including all the bidons over the head.

Like I say, trying to keep an open mind, but as per usual, sky (and commentators) dig the hole deeper by over claiming sky innovation and bringing something new...

Sky riders don't use Nutella and also have special pillow cases. Hard to quantify the advantage that gives them over the rest.

greenspurs

2008 Tour. Absolutley riddled with EPO and other variants, and even reading back on it is quite depressing.!!

23 year old Froome riding for Barloworld finished 84th ! 2hr 23mins behind the winner.
His placing on the Alpe D'Huez stage was 31st .

2009 - 36th in the Giro.
2010 - (with sky) dis for hanging onto a motorbike.
2011 - Vuelta 2nd
2012 - Vuelta 4th + Tour 2nd
2013 - TdF 1st + lots of other big wins (crit de Dauphine+Romandie)
2014 - Vuelta 2nd
2015 - TdF 1st + Mountain jersey
2016 - TdF 1st + Vuelta 2nd
2017 - Vuelta 1st + TdF 1st

Meteroic rise from 2011 onwards.

pelevin

greenspurs wrote: »

2008 Tour. Absolutley riddled with EPO and other variants, and even reading back on it is quite depressing.!!

23 year old Froome riding for Barloworld finished 84th ! 2hr 23mins behind the winner.
His placing on the Alpe D'Huez stage was 31st .

2009 - 36th in the Giro.
2010 - (with sky) dis for hanging onto a motorbike.
2011 - Vuelta 2nd
2012 - Vuelta 4th + Tour 2nd
2013 - TdF 1st + lots of other big wins (crit de Dauphine+Romandie)
2014 - Vuelta 2nd
2015 - TdF 1st + Mountain jersey
2016 - TdF 1st + Vuelta 2nd
2017 - Vuelta 1st + TdF 1st

Meteroic rise from 2011 onwards.

Hard to think of almost anyone comparable in fitness/endurance sports who transformed mid-way through his career so dramatically from nobody to best in the world.

greenspurs

Djoucer wrote: »

Could you imagine the comments if it was revealed that froome had bullet fragments riddled in his body but still won TDF?

This is the level of conspiracy theory we're getting to. Froome has a drink and it's now a "weird bottle."

If we applied same level of nonsense to LeMond, he'd be run out of town with his mystery "Z" drinks.

Read my comment again,
I mentioned the bottle because .
1) it was purple, not a normal bidon.
2) it was handed to him on the road.

I did then say "are we being paranoid" , meaning that due to the questionable way Sky do their business we suspect everything, and of course normal people suspect, so I don't think suspicion necessarily mean Conspiracy theories.
Hardly "a level of nonsense" either ....
What would your belief be about Froome, and Team Sky ?

Weepsie

Going from 36th in 2009 in a GC to 2nd 2 years later isn't all that remarkable a jump. It's precisely the same type of jump that Contador, Quintana, Dumoulin, Aru and a few others have had in the last 10 or so years in the space of a year or 2 and between GCs. There's some commentary in 2009 in which he is referred to as a potential GC contender, and he placed fairly high on a few stages. Also 4 of the top 10 were later disqualified.

That said, Sky are awful.

odyssey06

pelevin wrote: »

Hard to think of almost anyone comparable in fitness/endurance sports who transformed mid-way through his career so dramatically from nobody to best in the world.

Maybe, but then playing devil's advocate how many people who were ahead of him in 2008 - 2010 were getting assistance from something stronger than asthma and allergy medication...

Either he's had a remarkable turnaround, or he's done a great job of pulling wool over eyes ...

greenspurs

odyssey06 wrote: »

Maybe, but then playing devil's advocate how many people who were ahead of him in 2008 - 2010 were getting assistance from something stronger than asthma and allergy medication...

...

True - as I mentioned , the 2008 Tour seemed to be an EPO-fest.
and the Giro also (Riccardo Ricco anyone !! :rolleyes::eek: )

Lumen

pelevin wrote: »

Hard to think of almost anyone comparable in fitness/endurance sports who transformed mid-way through his career so dramatically from nobody to best in the world.

He started off underprepared and was riding himself into his career.

Macy0161

The narrative now is he always had potential/ "the numbers". But yet... Sky were letting his contract run out pre that Vuelta, and even at that stage of the season he hadn't been picked up by anyone else. It's this evidence from sky themselves that's always been the most damning for me.

greenspurs

Froomes testing - (as released by teamsky)

2007 -
Peak power = 540w
Threshold (20-40mins) = 420

2015 -
Peak power = 525w
Threshold (20-40mins0 = 419

pelevin

Weepsie wrote: »

Going from 36th in 2009 in a GC to 2nd 2 years later isn't all that remarkable a jump. It's precisely the same type of jump that Contador, Quintana, Dumoulin, Aru and a few others have had in the last 10 or so years in the space of a year or 2 and between GCs. There's some commentary in 2009 in which he is referred to as a potential GC contender, and he placed fairly high on a few stages. Also 4 of the top 10 were later disqualified.

That said, Sky are awful.

To pick one of those, at age 23 Quintana came 2nd in the Tour de France.