There's A Large Online Petition Calling On Sen Mullen To Resign

Zaph

I have zero time for R Mullen and his views, however he is entitled to hold them and he was democratically elected to the Seanad. A petition calling for his removal is ridiculous, if that was to be permitted then there's probably not a politician in the country that wouldn't have a petition started calling for their removal.

What I will be doing for the first time ever though is ensuring that I am on the NUI register of electors so I can vote against Senator Mullen the next time the opportunity arises. This is how democracy works, not by starting petitions that are never going to succeed.

DeadHand

woejus wrote: »

“Asked if he would acknowledge the will of the Irish people, he replied “Absolutely not””.

How fascist?

So?

Wrong but irrelevant to the conversation at hand.

The creators of this petition, those who signed it and those here who are all for it here no less refuse to acknowledge the will of the people when that will does not align with their sensibilities.

What you need to grasp is the possibility of not being a general supporter of a public figure but being disgusted by an an undemocratic attack on him.

It’s indicative of the polarization and absolutism present in Irish discourse that I’m automatically to be a disciple of Mullen for expressing qualms about his witch hunt. There’s no more room for nuance.

DeadHand

Esel wrote: »

Pederasty, actually, my dear man.

Pedophilia by any modern standard.

The point is, had any vaguely conservative figure made remarks as problematic the same mob behind this petition would be howling for much more than just a removal from public office.

The comments did hurt his presidential campaign- see, that’s democracy, that’s how it’s done. Yet, outside of that election, Norris was untouched (unlike the boys in his story).

There’s the double standard.

Of course, all this nonsense could be avoided had we scrapped the Seanad when we had the chance as we should have.

PhoenixParker

Better then a petition.

VOTE him out.

NUI grads (and a few other colleges) are eligible to register.

Print it, sign it, return it today.
Takes five minutes.

http://www.nui.ie/elections/seanad-register.asp

Then get your eligible friends to do the same.


In the last Seanad election only 33k voted out of who knows how many are eligible?
Mullen got elected on the 26th count, it won't take much to prevent him getting in next time.

Print it now, while you think of it.

pleas advice

DeadHand wrote:

So?

Wrong but irrelevant to the conversation at hand.

The creators of this petition, those who signed it and those here who are all for it here no less refuse to acknowledge the will of the people when that will does not align with their sensibilities.

What you need to grasp is the possibility of not being a general supporter of a public figure but being disgusted by an an undemocratic attack on him.

It’s indicative of the polarization and absolutism present in Irish discourse that I’m automatically to be a disciple of Mullen for expressing qualms about his witch hunt. There’s no more room for nuance.

It's a typical twitter mob, they don't even know what they're upset by..

Mutant z

riffmongous wrote: »

Mutant z wrote: »

You may despise his views but this is still a democracy and he's entitled to hold them even if most people disagree with them.

Or an official who violated a code of conduct he signed up to..? The petition itself puts forward quite a good argument

That petition is nothing more than a lynch mob which no one with a bit of cop on will take seriously like i said he's still entitled to his opinion even if you may hate what he stands for.

Mutant z

I disagree with what he says but being the democrat i am i will defend to the death his right to speak his mind its a pity others don't feel the same way.

riffmongous

Mutant z wrote: »

I disagree with what he says but being the democrat i am i will defend to the death his right to speak his mind its a pity others don't feel the same way.

He can say whatever he wants as a private individual but when he took his position he signed up to a code of conduct, that's the issue here

VinLieger

riffmongous wrote: »

He can say whatever he wants as a private individual but when he took his position he signed up to a code of conduct, that's the issue here

Agreed I really don't see how people calling for a democratically elected individual to be held accountable for using their elected position to lie, spread dangerous misinformation and say incredibly hurtful and insulting things is undemocratic.

Excuse my ignorance, how does one get appointed the Seanad?

Quin_Dub

riffmongous wrote: »

He can say whatever he wants as a private individual but when he took his position he signed up to a code of conduct, that's the issue here

Regardless of how distasteful people might find his positions , was anything he said a breach of said Code of Conduct?

VinLieger wrote: »

Agreed I really don't see how people calling for a democratically elected individual to be held accountable for using their elected position to lie, spread dangerous misinformation and say incredibly hurtful and insulting things is undemocratic.

Don't disagree that some of the things he said are all of the above , but absent a specific case that could be challenged against whatever code of conduct or ethics rules he may have signed then he can say what he wants.

Given that we don't have a "recall" option here for elected office, the only recourse for people here is to lobby those that have the ability to vote for/against this guy to ensure that he doesn't get re-elected when the time comes.

Trying to hound him into resigning is pointless - If anything I suspect that he'd wear this kind of thing as a badge of honour and measure that he's doing the right thing.

jm08

DeadHand wrote: »

Pedophilia by any modern standard.

The point is, had any vaguely conservative figure made remarks as problematic the same mob behind this petition would be howling for much more than just a removal from public office.

The comments did hurt his presidential campaign- see, that’s democracy, that’s how it’s done. Yet, outside of that election, Norris was untouched (unlike the boys in his story).

There’s the double standard.

Of course, all this nonsense could be avoided had we scrapped the Seanad when we had the chance as we should have.

Just for the record, in case anyone thinks David Norris thinks there is nothing wrong with paedophilia.

Norris: I cannot understand how anybody could find children of either sex the slightest bit attractive sexually.
Because to me what is attractive about people is their maturity and the fact that they display the signs of sexual maturity and I think that is, if I may use a much abused word, normal.

You can read the rest of what he said here:

http://www.thejournal.ie/liveline-to-play-tape-of-david-norris-interview-with-helen-lucy-burke-259994-Oct2011/

Seth Brundle

Allinall wrote: »

Has anyone asked the people who elected Mullen to the Seanad what they think?

People would have known that he was a religious zealot before they elected him so I'd say that they would know what he thinks.
Personally, I don't like the Victorian restrictions the Seanad has but they are there and in his defence (I loathe the public version of Mullen), he was elected based on his ignorant and archaic values. We shouldn't be surprised now that he expresses those values.

Seth Brundle

Deleted User wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance, how does one get appointed the Seanad?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/elections_and_referenda/national_elections/seanad_elections.html

BarryD2

Emberly Narrow Sidekick wrote: »

This is a democracy. People are allowed to have different opinions.

Yes, but he expresses them in a deeply unpleasant way. And in a democracy we should not have to listen to elected politicians like this. We don't need hate speech.

Seth Brundle

Seth Brundle wrote: »

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/elections_and_referenda/national_elections/seanad_elections.html

I think that's a pretty good system. Far better than bog standard democracy which is simply a popularity contest. I don't agree with the taoseach being able to elect 6 though.

drunkmonkey

It's a bit ironic he's being asked to resign and 2 ministers for health who supposedly didn't have the slightest clue that multi million euro gag cases were happening under their watch are now to quote "absolute legends".

He stuck his foot firmly in his mouth the other night with the mental health remark but it's a conversation that needs to happen that hasn't. Colm O'Gorman was just as disrespectful to the adopted guy in the audience and got shot down for it as well.

I think he was well intentioned trying to save a life, not something he should be strung up for. He's heart was in the right place and he was a lot braver than most men willing to go against the grain for what he believed.

There's also a medical marijuana petition doing the rounds today, I'll be be putting my name to that one instead.

Sleepy

Mancomb Seepgood wrote: »

I don't like Ronan Mullen and what he said about mental health during the campaign was particularly bad.However,he at least has to face a portion of the electorate in the next election,unlike most of the Seanad,it would seem more reasonable for his seat to be a target in the next election rather than starting a petition.

As an NUI graduate, I'm seeing a lot of organisation for this actually...

Mullen scraped in the last time because there were so many more progressive candidates running against him that they split the vote massively. Hopefully, this won't happen again.

http://www.nui.ie/elections/seanad-register.asp

Gravelly

Wouldn't piss on Mullen if he was on fire, but it's a sad day for democracy if there's a witch hunt every time someone goes against the majority opinion. This reminds me of the Brexit remainers and the anti Trump obsessives - it seems that they only want democracy when it ties in with their views.

riffmongous

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Regardless of how distasteful people might find his positions , was anything he said a breach of said Code of Conduct?



Don't disagree that some of the things he said are all of the above , but absent a specific case that could be challenged against whatever code of conduct or ethics rules he may have signed then he can say what he wants.

Given that we don't have a "recall" option here for elected office, the only recourse for people here is to lobby those that have the ability to vote for/against this guy to ensure that he doesn't get re-elected when the time comes.

Trying to hound him into resigning is pointless - If anything I suspect that he'd wear this kind of thing as a badge of honour and measure that he's doing the right thing.

On the 24th May 2018, during a live TV debate on the Referendum on Article 40.3.3 of the Irish Constitution, Senator Ronan Mullen stated - "Mental Health has no evidence base".

The purpose of this petition is to hold Mr Mullen accountable for breach in Code of Conduct for Members of Seanad Eireann in relation to Section 1, 2 & 3(i) which can be seen here

http://www.sipo.ie/en/Codes-of-Condu...%89ireann.html

The preamble to the Code of Conduct for members is thus:

"The Members of Seanad Éireann other than office holders (referred to hereafter as "Members" ) recognise that it is in their individual and collective interest to foster and sustain public confidence and trust in their integrity as individuals and in Seanad Éireann as an institution. To this end, Members should at all times be guided by the public good and ensure that their actions and decisions are taken in the best interests of the public."

Negative discourse and stigma relating to poor mental health has long been a staple of Irish society. I, like thousands of others in Ireland suffer from mental health issues. The problem faced in our country is growing exponentially however huge efforts have been made by many elected members of State, Mental Health Bodies & Public Figures to address this and normalise the conversation.

Ronan Mullen's statement to a highly engaged National audience served to jeopardise this great work and undermine the seriousness of the issue at hand affecting a huge, wide ranging demographic in Ireland today

It states on Mr Mullen's website - "Rónán is a politician who stands up for the voiceless and vulnerable in our society. He is a man of principle who places honesty and integrity at the heart of his work." - His comments contradict this.

It also states on Mr Mullen's website - "I believe our communities and country have been let down by the dishonesty and a ruthless culture of spin in politics". - His comments contradict this.

Mr Mullen is an elected official representing NUI Graduates and also sits on two Boards relating to Secondary Schools and Dublin Inner City Community.

Having worked closely myself with Graduates and also the people of Dublin 1, I've witnessed, first hand, the affects of mental health difficulties on the exact people Mr Mullen was appointed to represent.

Therefore, I strongly believe that Ronan Mullen no longer warrants a Mandate for Public Office based on the degradation of the Mental Health epidemic, has breached the Code of Conduct and should resign from Senate with immediate effect.

Considering the stigmatisation of mental health in Ireland with over 400 suicides a year, a Senator coming out and implying mental health is made up is certainly not in the best interest of the public.

Even if he refuses to resign, the petition also fulfills the purpose of lobbying to not get him re-elected, come election time everyone will remember him.

Geuze

Deleted User wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance, how does one get appointed the Seanad?

60 members

9 appointed by Taoiseach

43 elected by councillors.

6 elected by some uni grads, 3 NUI, 3 TCD.

PhoenixParker

Deleted User wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance, how does one get appointed the Seanad?

In Mullens case he was elected as one of three senators representing the NUI constituency.

Any graduate of NUI (and a few other colleges) is eligible to vote.

Only 33k did so. He got 7k first preference votes and eventually got elected on the 26th count.

There is huge scope to turf him out next time.

Step one is for everyone eligible to register for Senate elections today.

stop putting it off, print it and send it in.

http://www.nui.ie/elections/seanad-register.asp

Then get any classmates/friends/family to send it in too.
Print copies and hand them out, share it on Facebook, just get it done.

The seanad elections take place just after the Dail elections.

Yer Da sells Avon

"I may not agree with what you say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to get paid €66,000 per year (plus expenses) to say it" - Voltaire

FreudianSlippers

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

"I may not agree with what you say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to get paid €66,000 per year (plus expenses) to say it" - Voltaire

That's part-time too right?

Jimbob1977

We had our chance to eliminate the Seanad, but some voters used the opportunity to kick Enda Kenny instead.

Instead we have retained an archaic talking shop

FreudianSlippers

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

We had our chance to eliminate the Seanad, but some voters used the opportunity to kick Enda Kenny instead.

Instead we have retained an archaic talking shop

I voted to retain the Seanad in the hopes that it would be reformed. I think it has the potential to be a hugely important democratic institution with the correct changes to our legislative system.

Yer Da sells Avon

I voted to retain it because of people like Professor John Crown and despite people like Ronan Mullen.

pixelburp

Yes, I generally believe that upper houses are an important arm of good & fair governance, assuming it has the right powers to hold something like the Dáil to account. So while I also voted 'Yes' to retain the Senate, it was only with the hope that it be reformed at a later point - not least to open up the voting to the wider public. Of course the political reality was that promises to reform were so low on the priority list, it quickly got shelved. Hard to see any cabinet ever taking it upon itself to do that, so we're kinda stuck.

As for Mullan himself, if politicians are supposed to serve at the pleasure of the public, then clearly if there's enough groundswell of opinion against his views, normal procedure suggests he should step down. That's how democratic politics works, regardless of whether in this case the senator's beliefs are particularly odious to (what amounts to) 2/3s of the population.

Gravelly

pixelburp wrote: »

As for Mullan himself, if politicians are supposed to serve at the pleasure of the public, then clearly if there's enough groundswell of opinion against his views, normal procedure suggests he should step down. That's how democratic politics works,regardless of whether in this case the senator's beliefs are particularly odious to (what amounts to) 2/3s of the population.

No it isn't. Unless a politician commits an act that is illegal, or have done something the goes against the values they espouse, democratic politics works by them finishing their term and either being elected or not the next time.

What's happening here is a witch hunt. Mullen is an unpleasant individual, and I don't get why anyone would vote for him, but there is no reason for him to stand down as he has campaigned and voted exactly in line with the principles he espoused when running.

nagel

Take your victory and rejoice , there is no need to go looking for heads , if we were all to do that there would be no one left.
if you still feel the same there is an organization who might be happy to have you, yes you'r correct its called the Taliban. they only recognize
their view as being the only valid one.

pixelburp

Gravelly wrote: »

No it isn't. Unless a politician commits an act that is illegal, or have done something the goes against the values they espouse, democratic politics works by them finishing their term and either being elected or not the next time.

What's happening here is a witch hunt. Mullen is an unpleasant individual, and I don't get why anyone would vote for him, but there is no reason for him to stand down as he has campaigned and voted exactly in line with the principles he espoused when running.

Were Mullan a normal TD I'd probably agree with you TBH about it being a witch-hunt, and he'd be entitled to continue on working towards his mandate - but the Irish Senate is democratic only as lip-service; hence why I said I'm wanting a heavy reform. As mentioned, he got a scant 7k votes, and only succeeded on the 26th count, yet this propelled him into a position of national relevance?

Functionally though, all politicians are at the whim of the public, given their success or failure is more often than not down to the reaction of the public. How many TDs or MPs have been paralysed into indecision or whataboutery, purely because of how it'd go down with the public? It's half the reason you can't get a straight answer out of them these days IMO, or why so many governments will kick a problem down the road rather than address is now. Oh sure, we vote in general elections, but plenty of politicians have resigned in disgrace over one thing or another.

blanch152

Gravelly wrote: »

No it isn't. Unless a politician commits an act that is illegal, or have done something the goes against the values they espouse, democratic politics works by them finishing their term and either being elected or not the next time.

What's happening here is a witch hunt. Mullen is an unpleasant individual, and I don't get why anyone would vote for him, but there is no reason for him to stand down as he has campaigned and voted exactly in line with the principles he espoused when running.

I agree completely with you, Mullen is an odious person, but he had done nothing illegal, other than state an opinion. He is entitled to hold that opinion, put it before his electorate for endorsement and get elected or not.

Nettle Soup

Jimbob1977 wrote: »

We had our chance to eliminate the Seanad, but some voters used the opportunity to kick Enda Kenny instead.

Instead we have retained an archaic talking shop

Yes and Enda promised immediate Seanad reform.

Instead he filled it with TDs that lost their seats in 2016 and other latchicos...

As for Mullen, I cannot understand how he even got NUI votes.

Ronan Mullen's campaign manager for the Seanad elections in 2007 and 2011 was Dr Andrew O’Connell, Irish Catholic columnist and communications director with the Presentation Brothers, and former board member of the conservative Catholic organisation the Iona Institute.

listermint

This fella gets to much airtime for someone that was not elected via a real equitable election system.

Id prefer we just stop talking about him at all. He will no doubt get chucked out on the next round of elections if those within that system have any actually cop on.

I would just prefer to not see his mug on the tv screens or read about him in any media format

TomOnBoard

No recall mechanism for Seanad seats AFAIK.

He was chosen to serve by the NUI constituency in the last election. Voters in that constituency should simply not vote for him next time around.

That's the beauty of democracies- the right to choose, which is a concept that has just been voted upon and agreed to by the People despite RM's campaigning to deny that right.

So, he campaigned against the very right that put him in a position to have a voice to do that campaigning.. Ironic or hypocritical? You choose.

gctest50

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Yes and Enda promised immediate Seanad reform.

Instead he filled it with TDs that lost their seats in 2016 and other latchicos...

As for Mullen, I cannot understand how he even got NUI votes.

Ronan Mullen's campaign manager for the Seanad elections in 2007 and 2011 was Dr Andrew O’Connell, Irish Catholic columnist and communications director with the Presentation Brothers, and former board member of the conservative Catholic organisation the Iona Institute.

and this



"From 1996 to 2001, Mullen worked in the Communications Office of the Archdiocese of Dublin and appeared as a spokesperson for the Archdiocese and Cardinal Desmond Connell.

Cardinal Connell was later found to have covered up numerous instances of child sex abuse"

Seth Brundle

gctest50 wrote: »

and this



"From 1996 to 2001, Mullen worked in the Communications Office of the Archdiocese of Dublin and appeared as a spokesperson for the Archdiocese and Cardinal Desmond Connell.

Cardinal Connell was later found to have covered up numerous instances of child sex abuse"

In fairness to him, there's no evidence at all that Mullen was involved in covering up child abuse which could be one interpretation of your post.

Gravelly

pixelburp wrote: »

Were Mullan a normal TD I'd probably agree with you TBH about it being a witch-hunt, and he'd be entitled to continue on working towards his mandate - but the Irish Senate is democratic only as lip-service; hence why I said I'm wanting a heavy reform. As mentioned, he got a scant 7k votes, and only succeeded on the 26th count, yet this propelled him into a position of national relevance?

Functionally though, all politicians are at the whim of the public, given their success or failure is more often than not down to the reaction of the public. How many TDs or MPs have been paralysed into indecision or whataboutery, purely because of how it'd go down with the public? It's half the reason you can't get a straight answer out of them these days IMO, or why so many governments will kick a problem down the road rather than address is now. Oh sure, we vote in general elections, but plenty of politicians have resigned in disgrace over one thing or another.

But this is the whole point - Mullen has done EXACTLY what he said he would when campaigning for the election. As unpleasant as most of us find the man, he is probably one of the most honest politicians in the country - he hasn't strayed on iota from his (extreme religious) agenda, and every single person who voted for him knew what his priorities were.

pleas advice

BarryD2 wrote: »

Yes, but he expresses them in a deeply unpleasant way. And in a democracy we should not have to listen to elected politicians like this. We don't need hate speech.

Ah now, do you not think that's going a bit far?

riffmongous wrote: »

Considering the stigmatisation of mental health in Ireland with over 400 suicides a year, coming out and implying mental health is made up is certainly not in the best interest of the public.

Thats not what he did though, is it?

riffmongous

pleas advice wrote: »

Ah now, do you not think that's going a bit far?


Thats not what he did though, is it?

Well he said mental health had no evidence base, to me that's implying it's made up

bleary

Nettle Soup wrote: »

Yes and Enda promised immediate Seanad reform.

Instead he filled it with TDs that lost their seats in 2016 and other latchicos...

.

To be fair to enda in 2011 he went out of his way to use his appointees to bring in different non politically affiliated voices, or at least not Fine Gael politicians. Including Katherine zappone, John crown , Martin mcaleese . Then he gave us the chance to abolish it. He didn't pRomise to reform it, the incumbents did . After we voted no I think then he did a standard senate appointment .

If you don't like Ronan Mullen don't vote for him or even better run against him if you want him out, debate him , don't just shout him down. He stood for election and was elected. I'm getting fed of people starting petitions to push people they don't like from view. At least he put himself forward. Which people are less likely to do with the vitriol that tends to come with mob rule. I voted yes, I donated , I spoke to people about their votes, I argued a bit too. I did not call anyone names or abuse them which I have seen yes voters do and it turns my stomach.and calling what he said hate speech is ridiculous .

L1011

John Crown was elected by the NUI panel, not appointed