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Buying agricultural land with a view to getting planning permission and selling it on
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27-05-2018 9:09pm#1I am interested in buying agricultural land with a view to obtaining planning permission and then selling it on for a profit. I have never done this before and am still in the purely hypothetical stage of this process. The land is approx. 3.5 acres in size and has extensive road frontage. Based on other users' experiences, how easy or difficult is it to obtain planning permission on this type of land? The land is not far from Cork city but in a rural area. In the area where I live (rural coastal county Cork) I see agricultural land being divided into approx. 0.5 acre sites, getting planning permission and being sold on all the time so it would seem to be a doable endeavor. Any constructive advice and personal experiences of such would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.0
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If it were that straightforward, you'd have to ask yourself why the current owner of the 3.5 acres hadn't done it .
This might give you some limited insight:
Planning in rural Cork ‘too restrictive’, say local Councillors0 -
planning all over the country is too restrictive. In Kildare you couldn't even buy an acre and build on it yourself without having been kicked in the face by a cow who was born and died in the field next to it for your whole life.0
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Chances of getting residential planning permission on land zoned as agricultural must be slim-to-none surely, otherwise everyone would be selling it off.0
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A colleague made a nice few quid doing it back during the boom but he'd been tipped off by a contact in the council that he wouldn't have any problem in getting the land re-zoned.0
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With no offence intended against the OP, hopefully it will become more difficult to buy plots and plonk a house on it.
Far too much one off housing in this country, much of which is pretentious looking shíte.0 -
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Seth Brundle wrote: »With no offence intended against the OP, hopefully it will become more difficult to buy plots and plonk a house on it.
Far too much one off housing in this country, much of which is pretentious looking shíte.
Im sorry youre offended that housing estates and bland apartments dont suit everyone. Not everyone wants to have their neighbours overlook them , only have parking for 2 cars or hear their neighbour fart through an ajoining wall1 -
Eric Cartman wrote: »Im sorry youre offended that housing estates and bland apartments dont suit everyone. Not everyone wants to have their neighbours overlook them , only have parking for 2 cars or hear their neighbour fart through an ajoining wall
But they expect the same level of service as the person living in a city. You don't have to build up every road in the country not to be overlooked or have space.0 -
But they expect the same level of service as the person living in a city. You don't have to build up every road in the country not to be overlooked or have space.
A lot of the time they don't. This in one off houses demanding bus stops, cycle paths etc.. are all living in a fantasy land, I'd rather just tell them no than deprive us all of the peace and freedom a one off house provides.0 -
How many share your opinion though Eric Cartman? And how extreme are you in your happiness to forego modern services which can't be provided to the one-off homes that blight our landscape because you want a big house for cheap? Are you fine with an ambulance taking 45 minutes to get to your home? With the nearest gardaí being an hour away? With not being able to get a landline or not having high-speed broadband? With the roads to your home not being salted/gritted during inclement weather? With having to drive the kids for half an hour to a small village school that's been under-resourced since the 80's because the number of students is so low that the capitation grant is a pittance?
The reality is that most seeking to build in the country don't need to live there. They have no more connection to the land than the man in the moon. They derive their income from urban activities yet somehow feel entitlted to similar levels of public services as their urban contemporaries.0 -
You are talking like some kind of miserable can't-do attitude person.How many share your opinion though Eric Cartman? And how extreme are you in your happiness to forego modern services which can't be provided to the one-off homes that blight our landscape because you want a big house for cheap? Are you fine with an ambulance taking 45 minutes to get to your home? With the nearest gardaí being an hour away? With not being able to get a landline or not having high-speed broadband? With the roads to your home not being salted/gritted during inclement weather? With having to drive the kids for half an hour to a small village school that's been under-resourced since the 80's because the number of students is so low that the capitation grant is a pittance?
The reality is that most seeking to build in the country don't need to live there. They have no more connection to the land than the man in the moon. They derive their income from urban activities yet somehow feel entitlted to similar levels of public services as their urban contemporaries.
People lived like you said for a centuries. You have no right to force all of them into cities. That's not of your business if they want live without modern conveniences but within green, quiet and peaceful area which cities do not offer. Thinking like you killed rural ireland. Go to mainland Europe to see how it has worked differently.0 -
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Eric Cartman wrote: »planning all over the country is too restrictive.
County Galway is full of one-off houses, thousands of them, so I think planning laws are far too loose.0 -
There's a very happy medium between one off houses and everyone living in cities.You are talking like some kind of miserable can't-do attitude person.
People lived like you said for a centuries. You have no right to force all of them into cities. That's not of your business if they want live without modern conveniences but within green, quiet and peaceful area which cities do not offer. Thinking like you killed rural ireland. Go to mainland Europe to see how it has worked differently.
Rural Ireland should be planned around population centres. That is villages, small towns and large towns. Not houses in the arsehole of nowhere. This allows for the effective provision of public services.
What we end up with is a bunch of houses scattered all over the place, and then people whinging because there's only one Garda station covering a huge area and it takes the Guards an hour to respond to a call. Same for ambulances.0 -
Property Investor wrote: »I am interested in buying agricultural land with a view to obtaining planning permission and then selling it on for a profit. I have never done this before and am still in the purely hypothetical stage of this process. The land is approx. 3.5 acres in size and has extensive road frontage. Based on other users' experiences, how easy or difficult is it to obtain planning permission on this type of land? The land is not far from Cork city but in a rural area. In the area where I live (rural coastal county Cork) I see agricultural land being divided into approx. 0.5 acre sites, getting planning permission and being sold on all the time so it would seem to be a doable endeavor. Any constructive advice and personal experiences of such would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Probably impossible, if in a rural area each applicant will have to have a rural housing need in that specific area, therefore you will only be able to sell to a small number of applicants, hence lowering the demand and therefore the price. If you managed to gather a number of applicants willing to buy which fulfill the housing need then the restrictions on ribbon development will probably catch you out. However the biggest hurdle will be the road, what is the speed limit on the road which fronts the land? And how straight is the road, as sightlines will be a massive issue.0 -
Actually it is our business.You are talking like some kind of miserable can't-do attitude person.
People lived like you said for a centuries. You have no right to force all of them into cities. That's not of your business if they want live without modern conveniences but within green, quiet and peaceful area which cities do not offer. Thinking like you killed rural ireland. Go to mainland Europe to see how it has worked differently.
One off housing has become a blight on the landscape with oversized houses completely out of keeping with the surrounding landscape.
In addition, the disparate housing creates a greater need for cars, causing increased wear and traffic on small rural roads.
Whilst nobody is suggesting that all those looking for a one off house should live in a city, it is better if they live in an urban area. High volumes of one off housing have created greater pressures on services for a range of things including postal services and school transport (as well as water and waste).
Furthermore, many of those living in one off housing have their own septic tank, many of which are not up to scratch.
As for the mainland Europe, they tend to follow proper planning practices there.
There are many reasons against one off housing. There aren't many reasons in favour of it.0 -
How many share your opinion though Eric Cartman? And how extreme are you in your happiness to forego modern services which can't be provided to the one-off homes that blight our landscape because you want a big house for cheap? Are you fine with an ambulance taking 45 minutes to get to your home? With the nearest gardaí being an hour away? With not being able to get a landline or not having high-speed broadband? With the roads to your home not being salted/gritted during inclement weather? With having to drive the kids for half an hour to a small village school that's been under-resourced since the 80's because the number of students is so low that the capitation grant is a pittance?
The reality is that most seeking to build in the country don't need to live there. They have no more connection to the land than the man in the moon. They derive their income from urban activities yet somehow feel entitlted to similar levels of public services as their urban contemporaries.
Don't forget that they also complain when the farmers big machines or animals make noise and when the farmers spread slurry.0 -
Probably impossible, if in a rural area each applicant will have to have a rural housing need in that specific area, therefore you will only be able to sell to a small number of applicants, hence lowering the demand and therefore the price. If you managed to gather a number of applicants willing to buy which fulfill the housing need then the restrictions on ribbon development will probably catch you out. However the biggest hurdle will be the road, what is the speed limit on the road which fronts the land? And how straight is the road, as sightlines will be a massive issue.
Wasn't the locals only clause ruled illegal? Not that it opened the flood gates it just bolted the stable door after we've already destroyed the countryside.0 -
Wasn't the locals only clause ruled illegal? Not that it opened the flood gates it just bolted the stable door after we've already destroyed the countryside.
No its still enforce, there was some kinda European court ruling alright but it never resulted on changes on the ground as far as I can see.0 -
It's all of our business when they leach their existence off the rest of us. The wealth transfer from urban to rural areas is unquestionable and, with the exception of those actively farming the land and providing security of food supply for the nation, it's indefensible.You are talking like some kind of miserable can't-do attitude person.
People lived like you said for a centuries. You have no right to force all of them into cities. That's not of your business if they want live without modern conveniences but within green, quiet and peaceful area which cities do not offer. Thinking like you killed rural ireland. Go to mainland Europe to see how it has worked differently.
If someone has an existing property (or wants to renovate one of the tumbling down cottages) in the rural countryside and is happy to live their life without access to emergency services or modern conveniences, the best of luck to them.
Someone who just wants to build a 2000sqm McMansion off a boreen that borders Daddy's farm because they like the peace and quiet of the countryside at the end of their long commute to work, who will proceed to vote for gombeen politicians that'll demand they need to be provided with all the same conveniences as those living in urban areas need be told where to go. They're actively depleting our abilility to grow food (by converting agricultural land to residential) while impeding our ability to efficiently run a country.0 -
To the op it's a non runner as planning won't be granted unless the land is zoned and if it is it won't be bought at agri prices. Once off planning is more restrictive so unless you can prove a need unlikely to be given.
're one off housing in general more use should be made of rural villages in order to keep services together. Local village had numerous applications turned down to build in or near it and those people ended up getting planning in a spot with no school shop etc and **** roads. A few miles away. Made no sense. Onnce off houses are required in certain cases but I would prefer if it was older houses and dwellings knocked and new built in those sites. A load of old houses left rotting as planning wasn't given to knock and rebuild, and these aren't thatched remnants of the old days there standard slate roofed houses, no point in keeping imo. Most of the people I know are couples working in opposite directions or one of them is farming the land it's built on so location suits in that regard. 're expecting the same services, they don't cos they are not there to begin with. Pay for our own wells, esb infrastructure is paid for to supply elec. Broadband etc should be straight forward for majority bar those heading for peninsulas or very isolated spots, not exactly the biggest country in the world. Roads aren't falling apart due to a load of extra traffic, it's due to no maintenance and restrictions 're clearing rivers etc. Our road was resurfaced for the first time in 40 years last year and they didn't even consider doing anything about the river0 -
It's all of our business when they leach their existence off the rest of us. The wealth transfer from urban to rural areas is unquestionable and, with the exception of those actively farming the land and providing security of food supply for the nation, it's indefensible.
If someone has an existing property (or wants to renovate one of the tumbling down cottages) in the rural countryside and is happy to live their life without access to emergency services or modern conveniences, the best of luck to them.
Someone who just wants to build a 2000sqm McMansion off a boreen that borders Daddy's farm because they like the peace and quiet of the countryside at the end of their long commute to work, who will proceed to vote for gombeen politicians that'll demand they need to be provided with all the same conveniences as those living in urban areas need be told where to go. They're actively depleting our abilility to grow food (by converting agricultural land to residential) while impeding our ability to efficiently run a country.
Think that's a very naive viewpoint. People like to live in communities though not necessarily on top of each other. It sounds like you want to sterilize rural Ireland and turn it into some sort of collectivized farm. If we want to keep our primary industries realistically we need to maintain the communities that support it. That doesnt mean allowing houses willy nilly but that isnt really what I see around me. Primary industries are far more valuable to the economy then secondary or tertiary (where much of the profits are repatriated out of the nation) ones and in many cases these other more urban industries depend on them for resources.
Rural Ireland is very diverse and speaking as if its the one place is akin to saying inner city Dublin with all its problems is the same as Blackrock. I can only talk about where I live and most rural hosing that manages to get planning tends to cluster. You will not get planning for many many reasons so people tend to buy plots in the few areas that will which become like a very low density village. My wife and her siblings were all unable to get planning on their parents farm forcing them to move away from an area whos population is still a fraction of its pre famine levels.
As for the costs they are often presented with a massive slant, there are no roads built for rural houses in fact its sometimes the case that publicly used roads are not even in the possession of the council and are privately maintained. Telephone and utility lines typically are already in situ to service farming, mining etc etc . My parents in law and their neighbours all drag their bins several hundred metres to the one collection point. No one expects the same conveniences of urban living there is always a trade off but as a nation we should be trying to plan for the growth of many rural areas in order to sustain these communities as well as for what is happening in England where there has been net migration from urban to rural areas for a number of years as more people can work from home etc. I come from an urban area and pre recession saw a lot of people building houses themselves that earned considerably less then people I knew with council provided housing in urban areas. That the wealth transfer from urban to rural is unquestionable is questionable. Wealth transfer from wealthy areas to poorer areas is unquestionable but there are plenty of wealthy rural areas take for instance cork harbour which is probably per capita our largest axporting area. Regardless it is questionable if grain is grown in a rural area processed and sold in urban areas most of the jobs and money may be in the urban area but are wholly dependant on the rural one. Were one small country and should really try working together rather than latching onto these stupid urban / rural or whatever other divisions we can construct.
There does seem to be a massive difference in what different councils allow though, in West Cork most newer houses will be in a non uniform shape say a T, in clusters and blend somewhat into the landscape. In areas of Kerry it is more valid to object as they literally do seem to build one off boxes everywhere.0 -
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Balmed Out wrote: »Think that's a very naive viewpoint. People like to live in communities though not necessarily on top of each other. It sounds like you want to sterilize rural Ireland and turn it into some sort of collectivized farm. If we want to keep our primary industries realistically we need to maintain the communities that support it. That doesnt mean allowing houses willy nilly but that isnt really what I see around me. Primary industries are far more valuable to the economy then secondary or tertiary (where much of the profits are repatriated out of the nation) ones and in many cases these other more urban industries depend on them for resources.
Rural Ireland is very diverse and speaking as if its the one place is akin to saying inner city Dublin with all its problems is the same as Blackrock. I can only talk about where I live and most rural hosing that manages to get planning tends to cluster. You will not get planning for many many reasons so people tend to buy plots in the few areas that will which become like a very low density village. My wife and her siblings were all unable to get planning on their parents farm forcing them to move away from an area whos population is still a fraction of its pre famine levels.
As for the costs they are often presented with a massive slant, there are no roads built for rural houses in fact its sometimes the case that publicly used roads are not even in the possession of the council and are privately maintained. Telephone and utility lines typically are already in situ to service farming, mining etc etc . My parents in law and their neighbours all drag their bins several hundred metres to the one collection point. No one expects the same conveniences of urban living there is always a trade off but as a nation we should be trying to plan for the growth of many rural areas in order to sustain these communities as well as for what is happening in England where there has been net migration from urban to rural areas for a number of years as more people can work from home etc. I come from an urban area and pre recession saw a lot of people building houses themselves that earned considerably less then people I knew with council provided housing in urban areas. That the wealth transfer from urban to rural is unquestionable is questionable. Wealth transfer from wealthy areas to poorer areas is unquestionable but there are plenty of wealthy rural areas take for instance cork harbour which is probably per capita our largest axporting area. Regardless it is questionable if grain is grown in a rural area processed and sold in urban areas most of the jobs and money may be in the urban area but are wholly dependant on the rural one. Were one small country and should really try working together rather than latching onto these stupid urban / rural or whatever other divisions we can construct.
There does seem to be a massive difference in what different councils allow though, in West Cork most newer houses will be in a non uniform shape say a T, in clusters and blend somewhat into the landscape. In areas of Kerry it is more valid to object as they literally do seem to build one off boxes everywhere.
The fact that farming wouldn't exist without the EU subsidies proves that the urban areas are transferring wealth to rural areas. How many other industries in the EU have so much protection from imports and subsidies.
The village where my Mother is from used to have a few shops, a post office and several pubs. I drove through it on a Friday evening at about 5 and I was the only person visible in the village. That's a vibrant community alright.0 -
The transfer of wealth from urban to rural is utterly inquestionable unless we're living in a post-Trump alternative facts universe.Balmed Out wrote: »Think that's a very naive viewpoint. People like to live in communities though not necessarily on top of each other. It sounds like you want to sterilize rural Ireland and turn it into some sort of collectivized farm. If we want to keep our primary industries realistically we need to maintain the communities that support it. That doesnt mean allowing houses willy nilly but that isnt really what I see around me. Primary industries are far more valuable to the economy then secondary or tertiary (where much of the profits are repatriated out of the nation) ones and in many cases these other more urban industries depend on them for resources.
Rural Ireland is very diverse and speaking as if its the one place is akin to saying inner city Dublin with all its problems is the same as Blackrock. I can only talk about where I live and most rural hosing that manages to get planning tends to cluster. You will not get planning for many many reasons so people tend to buy plots in the few areas that will which become like a very low density village. My wife and her siblings were all unable to get planning on their parents farm forcing them to move away from an area whos population is still a fraction of its pre famine levels.
As for the costs they are often presented with a massive slant, there are no roads built for rural houses in fact its sometimes the case that publicly used roads are not even in the possession of the council and are privately maintained. Telephone and utility lines typically are already in situ to service farming, mining etc etc . My parents in law and their neighbours all drag their bins several hundred metres to the one collection point. No one expects the same conveniences of urban living there is always a trade off but as a nation we should be trying to plan for the growth of many rural areas in order to sustain these communities as well as for what is happening in England where there has been net migration from urban to rural areas for a number of years as more people can work from home etc. I come from an urban area and pre recession saw a lot of people building houses themselves that earned considerably less then people I knew with council provided housing in urban areas. That the wealth transfer from urban to rural is unquestionable is questionable. Wealth transfer from wealthy areas to poorer areas is unquestionable but there are plenty of wealthy rural areas take for instance cork harbour which is probably per capita our largest axporting area. Regardless it is questionable if grain is grown in a rural area processed and sold in urban areas most of the jobs and money may be in the urban area but are wholly dependant on the rural one. Were one small country and should really try working together rather than latching onto these stupid urban / rural or whatever other divisions we can construct.
There does seem to be a massive difference in what different councils allow though, in West Cork most newer houses will be in a non uniform shape say a T, in clusters and blend somewhat into the landscape. In areas of Kerry it is more valid to object as they literally do seem to build one off boxes everywhere.
Rural Ireland is dying because it can't sustain itself. Decades of poor planning has allowed one-off houses to be built dotted around the countryside instead of centralised around existing towns or large villages.
Living in a small village in North County Dublin myself, I understand the attraction to the peace and quiet of the "rural" life, however the reality is (as it is for the vast majority of the villages in the South of England) that the employment which sustains it is centralised in the city. The village idyl of the type we see on Hartbeat / Midsommer Murders / Agatha Christie etc hasn't been a reality for generations (arguably since the Industrial Revolution).
In a globalised world, it is simply impossible for Ireland to compete in secondary industries at a large enough level to provide mass employment. Our primary industries have become automated to the point where a single farmer can manage a farm that might have employed 50 in his grandfather's day. We can't roll back the clock on this, any more than we can roll back the clock on the migration of the young from rural areas to more urban ones. Donegal was a great point in case of this at the weekend: it was the only constituency to vote no, not because everyone from Donegal hates women or disagrees with the right to choose, but because the young people of Donegal don't live there any more: they've migrated to Sligo, Galway, Dublin, Cork and further afield in pursuit of gainful employment and voted in those constituencies (or didn't get to vote at all because they've emmigrated).
The notion that rural areas can ever again support their pre-famine levels of population is fanciful in the extreme. They can't support their current levels of population and that population don't pay enough tax to support themselves (see the recent argument over the ferry for Tory Island - a population that can be measure in dozens with less than half of them working yet expecting millions of tax-payers money to dredge their harbour and provide not only a subsidised ferry (and air) services for them but a specific boat of their choosing rather than one passed by the relevant authorities to do the job.)
By all means, we need to (and do, via a myriad of grants, subsidies and other schemes) support the farmers and fishermen that provide our food. We don't, however, have any duty to provide the grandchildren of the blacksmith who closed his forge 60 years ago with the right to build a McMansion down a boreen five miles outside their ancestral home from which they'll commute 90 each way to the nearest large town or city and then cry foul when their elderly parents die because an ambulance couldn't get to them within the 15 minutes that would have let the first responders have a chance.0 -
My advice for what it's worth is to check Cork County Council's Planning website and see what applications have been made nearby and what the outcomes were. Also, the draft County Development Plan is worth checking out. I don't agree with the negative reactions your proposal has got. Change happens. Good luck!0
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Funny enough, I like cities, and I bemoan the overhead of providing services to one-off houses in the middle of nowhere, yet I now kind of want to live in the middle of nowhere.
However the reason is because I just got a good-paying, fully remote job and don't need to commute to the city for it. All I need is an internet connection. I'd love to buy a cheap place cash and live completely debt free; mortgages destroy lives.
Funny enough if we had decent cycle paths around the country it would address a lot of the environmental and infrastructure concerns. I used to cycle 20km to work and it was a great way to start the day. But it's true the current system (where cycling on rural roads is a great way to get killed) causes auto-dependence.
There are also people who don't actually commute to the city. I was looking at this the other day (it got taken down at light speed because they were flooded with interest, which saddens me) and it looks like it was made by homesteaders. Self-sufficiency isn't the worst thing.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:337Zq61TqB4J:www.daft.ie/galway/houses-for-sale/newbridge/kilclough-newbridge-galway-1745797/+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=se&client=ubuntu0 -
CalRobert - I can certainly see the appeal of living somewhere like that (and particularly the price)! The reality is, however, that the state's finances can't stretch to provide the necessary services that would allow all of us that might like to live like that do so. We could explore the possibility of potential owners / builders of such homes signing waivers accepting that they won't have emergency services if their house goes up in flames or if there's a medical emergency but that would still leave the environmental impact of lots of, what many would consider eyesores dotted all over the landscape and the reality that such residences require septic tanks or similar water treatment facilities that we have a very poor record of ensuring are correctly maintained in this country.0
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The reality is, however, that the state's finances can't stretch to provide the necessary services that would allow all of us that might like to live like that do so...
I agree wholeheartedly! Like I said I have somewhat mixed views on it.
Personally I think there's a pretty easy solution to this - just change taxes accordingly. If an area is very expensive to serve it should expect to pay more for those services, or do without. In the case of the house I posted that largely means doing without (off-grid electric and water), but other things would cost more (garda, etc.)
I'm kind of odd though, in that I think _every_ road should be tolled for the full cost of:
* Construction
* Maintenance
* lost value of the land
* Reduced utility of nearby land due to excess noise and pollution (living near a motorway correlates with a higher risk of autism, for instance)
* Increased HSE spend from people getting hit by your car
* etc..
Similarly, fuel taxes should be high enough to cover
* Bailing out homeowners in East Wall when the sea swallows their homes
* or at least fully removing the CO2 generated by burning fuel from the atmosphere.
But then (sorry to get all "uphill both ways in the snow" here) my great-grandfather bought a plot of land in rural Maine near a lake about 80 years ago, bought an old barn for materials, disassembled it, dragged it to the aforementioned land over a frozen lake, and built a family vacation home. At the time there wasn't even a road. I kind of wish there still weren't roads there, to be honest.
I'm not sure something like that should be illegal. But then, I'm not standing there waiting for a helicopter ambulance with a kid in allergic shock from getting stung by a bee and hoping they don't die.0 -
Oh, another crazy question -
What if I want to buy agricultural land so I can farm it? Can I build a house to live in there?
If I don't farm it commercially, but want to be self-sufficient and live off what I grow, can I do that?0 -
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Oh, another crazy question -
What if I want to buy agricultural land so I can farm it? Can I build a house to live in there?
If I don't farm it commercially, but want to be self-sufficient and live off what I grow, can I do that?
The rule of thumb used to be that you had to show that north of 50% of your family income comes from the farm0 -
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I thought "local need" was ruled illegal?
What if I just eat over 50% of what I produce? Was thinking about getting a large spot and rewilding a good chunk of it. This island could use more trees.
Telling someone from the city they can't go buy a plot of land and live off it seems like a great way to kill the countryside, while turning it in to a mix of low density housing and pesticide-coated wasteland for large developers and farming interests who can bribe planning boards.0
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