NFL Protest Discussion

notobtuse

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

notobtuse wrote: »

Sorry, then... When you noted "right wing nonsense" it kinda set the tone for what your political stance is. 

A recent poll I saw indicated 53% percent of Americans say it’s ‘never appropriate’ to kneel during the national anthem.  In mine, and most, books… That’s a majority.

Dont need the majority to become president though

True.  A majority is not how we elect the President.  Who knows who would have been POTUS if our election was based only on a majority, as the candidates would have campaigned differently based on the rules.

But a majority does matter with the NFL protests.

TOss Sweep

notobtuse wrote: »

Sorry, then... When you noted "right wing nonsense" it kinda set the tone for what your political stance is. 

And there in lies the problem. You think that both Left and Right don't spew nonsense from time to time? Im not going to go into my political stance but both sides spew **** and it is ok to admit both sides are pissing vinegar at each other these days.

A recent poll I saw indicated 53% percent of Americans say it’s ‘never appropriate’ to kneel during the national anthem.  In mine, and most, books… That’s a majority.

You got the source?

notobtuse

TOss Sweep wrote: »

notobtuse wrote: »

Sorry, then... When you noted "right wing nonsense" it kinda set the tone for what your political stance is. 

And there in lies the problem. You think that both Left and Right don't spew nonsense from time to time? Im not going to go into my political stance but both sides spew **** and it is ok to admit both sides are pissing vinegar at each other these days.

A recent poll I saw indicated 53% percent of Americans say it’s ‘never appropriate’ to kneel during the national anthem.  In mine, and most, books… That’s a majority.

You got the source?

Sure there are extremes on both sides.  But far to many feel anyone right of center is on the Extreme Right.

And sure I have a source that the majority of Americans being against kneeling during the NA as a protest (I think you will have a tough time calling the Washington Post some right wing rag).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2018/05/23/poll-53-percent-of-americans-say-its-never-appropriate-to-kneel-during-the-national-anthem/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.f4445dc02711

Jolly Red Giant

notobtuse wrote: »

A recent poll I saw indicated 53% percent of Americans say it’s ‘never appropriate’ to kneel during the national anthem.  In mine, and most, books… That’s a majority.

so what - the very essence of a democracy is the right to dissent - the stink about the protests is an attempt to force conformity to a certain political ideologue - it is the antithesis of democracy.

TOss Sweep

notobtuse wrote: »

Sure there are extremes on both sides.  But far to many feel anyone right of center is on the Extreme Right.

I wouldn't say that. Easy to spot the difference between extreme and non extreme

And sure I have a source that the majority of Americans being against kneeling during the NA as a protest (I think you will have a tough time calling the Washington Post some right wing rag).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sports/wp/2018/05/23/poll-53-percent-of-americans-say-its-never-appropriate-to-kneel-during-the-national-anthem/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.f4445dc02711

I respect the Post but look at the number of those who said Never appropriate:

86% of that 53% were republican.
58% were white
63% over 50

Demographics are the key here.

Foxtrol

notobtuse wrote: »

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/nike-takes-politics-head-on-by-naming-colin-kaepernick-the-face-of-30th-anniversary-of-just-do-it-2018-09-04
And the military are split on CK's protest.  I think it is wrong for him to protest the National Anthem, but he can protest all he wants.  And I can protest by not watching most NFL games and take my money elsewhere.  See... It all works.  

But bottom line it is a stupid business decision on Nike's part.

Yeah, a real 'stupid business decision on Nike's part'... :rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/novy_williams/status/1037020151558942721

eagle eye

Foxtrol wrote:

Yeah, a real 'stupid business decision on Nike's part'...

It's still a stupid business decision because you have lost customers to a competitor, customers who will likely never buy Nike again.

Podge_irl

eagle eye wrote: »

It's still a stupid business decision because you have lost customers to a competitor, customers who will likely never buy Nike again.

And probably gained some. You have the breakdown to hand?

I don't exactly think Nike are doing this for the "right" reasons, but I also largely don't care. It is a pretty bold statement as the apparel provider for the NFL to do it.

I would still like someone to point me toward a protest that achieved progress that was popular at the time?

TOss Sweep

eagle eye wrote: »

It's still a stupid business decision because you have lost customers to a competitor, customers who will likely never buy Nike again.

Irony is Under Armor have already said they support anyone's decision to take a knee


https://twitter.com/UAnews/status/911626922274246656


Adidas already said they would sign Kap if a NFL team signed him

“If he signs on a team, we would definitely want to sign him,” Adidas North America President Mark King said, via the Arizona Republic.

Reebok have become irrelevant unless you are into Crossfit

So are they going to jump ship and become hypocrites?

TOss Sweep

eagle eye wrote: »

customers who will likely never buy Nike again.

Yes they will. Lets face anyone who wont buy them again probably never wear their stuff anyways or their wife buys their clothes. Looking at all the morons on twitter burning and cutting up Nike stuff its always the same type of person. Faux outrage just to be heard.

Billy86

eagle eye wrote: »

Can you point out where I said I was a Trump supporter?
I lived in the US for a few years and I was always pro-democrat. I thought Hilary Clinton was an awful candidate on so many levels but that doesn't make me a Trump fan. I was fully behind Obama getting elected and re-elected. I was disappointed by him though, a great man but too nice for his own good or for that job I suppose.

I stand corrected that it wasn't on this thread - but here you are saying "I'm starting to feel like I'm actually in Trump's corner but I just cannot let these things go ("these things" seeming to refer to people calling Trump an idiot, not anything Trump has done).

You also have various posts on Trump throughout the site, including many going on about 'fake news'. And that's fine. But us a favour and don't go doing that only to then turn around and claim you don't read any news, don't watch current affairs, have no clue what any of that is about, and have no interest in any of it. Because that doesn't ring true, to be frank.

In this forum, it is consigned to this thread. If you don't like hearing about it and claim not to hear about it anywhere else, there is an 'unfollow' button at the top of the page.

Jolly Red Giant

notobtuse wrote: »

True.  A majority is not how we elect the President.  Who knows who would have been POTUS if our election was based only on a majority, as the candidates would have campaigned differently based on the rules.

But a majority does matter with the NFL protests.

A majority of Americans also reject evolution and believe the world is 6,000 years old - should we also have to reflect that nonsense?

ELM327

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

A majority of Americans also reject evolution and believe the world is 6,000 years old - should we also have to reflect that nonsense?

Care to back that up with a source?

This article would render your claims false, putting the number of evolution deniers at 34%
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jan/29/evolution-gm-food-climate-change-us-survey

Jolly Red Giant

TOss Sweep wrote: »

Yes they will. Lets face anyone who wont buy them again probably never wear their stuff anyways or their wife buys their clothes. Looking at all the morons on twitter burning and cutting up Nike stuff its always the same type of person. Faux outrage just to be heard.

If some idiots want to burn $150 dollar sneakers - then let them off - and let the rest of the idiots watch them do it on youtube.

The Kap ad was a master stroke by Nike. Long after the stink over the protests peters out the Nike ad will still be talked about - and if you want to advertise you can't ask for better than that.

(p.s. - I also like the idea of being on the same side as Toss for once )

Jolly Red Giant

ELM327 wrote: »

Care to back that up with a source?

This article would render your claims false, putting the number of evolution deniers at 34%
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jan/29/evolution-gm-food-climate-change-us-survey

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jan/29/evolution-gm-food-climate-change-us-survey

https://www.livescience.com/57590-why-americans-deny-science.html

But I have to say - my favourite is this

Jolly Red Giant

ELM327 wrote: »

Care to back that up with a source?

This article would render your claims false, putting the number of evolution deniers at 34%
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/jan/29/evolution-gm-food-climate-change-us-survey

read the article - it says that 35% of Americans believe in evolution - that leaves 65% who don't (if my maths are correct)

ELM327

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

read the article - it says that 35% of Americans believe in evolution - that leaves 65% who don't (if my maths are correct)

"31% of the US public believed that humans had existed in their present form since the beginning, with a further 24% stating that humans had evolved under the guiding hand of a supreme being.....The proportion of the public who believed evolution had happened through natural processes, as described by Charles Darwin more than 150 years ago, was only slightly greater than a third at 35%"


I suppose it's twisting the numbers somewhat to make a determination that a majority do not believe in evolution but those who "believe" in evolution is the sum of 24% and 35%, a remarkably low 59%. With a 24 percentage point subset of that, believing that evolution was influenced/part of god's plan.


What subset do you want, those who are atheist and believe in evolution, or anyone who accepts evolution at all, because the numbers are 35% and 59% respectively. The first supports your claim (remarkably - I was not expecting that) and the second does not.

Jolly Red Giant

ELM327 wrote: »

"31% of the US public believed that humans had existed in their present form since the beginning, with a further 24% stating that humans had evolved under the guiding hand of a supreme being.....The proportion of the public who believed evolution had happened through natural processes, as described by Charles Darwin more than 150 years ago, was only slightly greater than a third at 35%"


I suppose it's twisting the numbers somewhat to make a determination that a majority do not believe in evolution but those who "believe" in evolution is the sum of 24% and 35%, a remarkably low 59%. With a 24 percentage point subset of that, believing that evolution was influenced/part of god's plan.


What subset do you want, those who are atheist and believe in evolution, or anyone who accepts evolution at all, because the numbers are 35% and 59% respectively. The first supports your claim (remarkably - I was not expecting that) and the second does not.

Whatever way you cut it - and there are countless studies to show this - the people who are kicking up a stink about the NFL protests are the same people who reject evolution.

If you think about it then it makes sense - they believe that white people are superior (because God says so) and they get uppity when black athletes question their world view.

raze_them_all_

The people that burn all the Nike stuff realise they already gave Nike the money right!?

ELM327

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

The people that burn all the Nike stuff realise they already gave Nike the money right!?

Again, it's symbolic of "no future purchases"

Billy86

I remember similar happening with Fox news watchers destroying their keurig coffee machines but have not heard of any troubles for the company since.

Another was penzeys spices, who lost 3% of their offline customers. Their ovwrall businrss outloom improved dramatically however as online sales went up by 60%.

I think Nike will be just fine.

ELM327

Billy86 wrote: »

I remember similar happening with Fox news watchers destroying their keurig coffee machines but have not heard of any troubles for the company since.

Another was penzeys spices, who lost 3% of their offline customers. Their ovwrall businrss outloom improved dramatically however as online sales went up by 60%.

I think Nike will be just fine.

Never heard of those other companies.
I share your prognosis regarding Nike. Too big a company to be impacted by a small percentage drop which is temporary most likely.

Billy86

ELM327 wrote: »

Never heard of those other companies.
I share your prognosis regarding Nike. Too big a company to be impacted by a small percentage drop which is temporary most likely.

That's pretty much it, small hit in certain US markets in some places, possibly a bigger boost to offset it. Similar happened when Disney's a huge controversy over a Star Wars video game basically extorting money and promoting gambling to kids, and wound up costing Disney points off their stock. Within a few weeks the stocks had recovered, with some savvier stock folk (not me!) calling it one of the easiest, most predictable gains they had ever seen.

Keurig are more North American as best I know (tin of the instant sh*te does me grand) but are fecking massive over there - they got sold for $14bn in 2016, and then again last month for $18.4bn according to their Wiki page.

Penzey's wouldn't be at all as big, but apparently have 67 shops across the US as well as online - so big enough to be able to get a bit of a gauge off of (compared to say, somewhere with a half dozen stores in LA or Alabama - neither of which would give an accurate idea of the US as a whole).

The good PR Nike will get off this globally will more than offset the few lost sales in the short term, but medium/long term consumers are a fickle lot and those lost sales front anti-protest types will likely begin to slowly return.

Jolly Red Giant

Statement issued by the NFL on Tuesday

"The National Football League believes in dialogue, understanding and unity. We embrace the role and responsibility of everyone involved with this game to promote meaningful, positive change in our communities," the statement read.

"The social justice issues that Colin and other professional athletes have raised deserve our attention and action."

The NFL head honchos are realising that the attacks on players protesting is doing more damage than anything to their 'brand' - particularly given how unpopular Trump is.

Jolly Red Giant

I particularly like the response of the rednecks to the Nike ad - claiming that Nike should have used Pat Tillman instead



And in the process ignoring the fact that once Pat Tillman actually got to Afghanistan he turned against the 'war' and was highly critical of Bush and the hawks in government - including making contact with Noam Chomsky.

Indeed - it has been speculated that he was murdered by elements of the American military because they knew of his intention to make his anti-war views known when he returned to America. Tillman was killed by three bullets from and M16 to the head. Attempts were made to burn Tilllman's body by US troops (to hide evidence) and all of Tillmann's diaries, reputed to contain his criticisms of the war, were destroyed.

Pat Tillman would have been kneeling beside Clin Kaepernick and others protesting if he hadn't been killed by 'friendly fire' in Afghanistan.

nasty_crash

does anyone else feel that players sitting in the dressing room is more disrespectful of the anthem than kneeling? Like how does that make sense?

Guaranteed that it will be player watch this weekend - 2 players from this team, 6 players from that team.... I dont care.... I just want football to be back and talking about players that under-performed or excelled!

raze_them_all_

ELM327 wrote: »

Again, it's symbolic of "no future purchases"

These same clowns are the same as LeBron can die when he went to the heat and were slabbering all over his cock when he came back to the land. Yank sports fans are clowns

eagle eye

Jolly Red Giant wrote:

Pat Tillman would have been kneeling beside Clin Kaepernick and others protesting if he hadn't been killed by 'friendly fire' in Afghanistan.

Well you don't know that. Pat Tillman might have been unhappy with what was going on but he might have been against kneeling during the national anthem like a lot of Americans.

Anyways I'm out of this thread, it's too much like social media for me.

ELM327

raze_them_all_ wrote: »

These same clowns are the same as LeBron can die when he went to the heat and were slabbering all over his cock when he came back to the land. Yank sports fans are clowns

That's a disgusting comment.

eagle eye wrote: »

Well you don't know that. Pat Tillman might have been unhappy with what was going on but he might have been against kneeling during the national anthem like a lot of Americans.

Anyways I'm out of this thread, it's too much like social media for me.

Yeah it's this usual thing where the liberals feel free to appropriate feelings/stances on those that are dead because they can't respond.


Pat Tillman was in the military and wouldn't have shown disrespect to the military, the flag, or the anthem.

WinnyThePoo

eagle eye wrote: »

Jolly Red Giant wrote:

Pat Tillman would have been kneeling beside Clin Kaepernick and others protesting if he hadn't been killed by 'friendly fire' in Afghanistan.

Well you don't know that. Pat Tillman might have been unhappy with what was going on but he might have been against kneeling during the national anthem like a lot of Americans.

Anyways I'm out of this thread, it's too much like social media for me.

Boards is social media.

Jolly Red Giant

eagle eye wrote: »

Well you don't know that. Pat Tillman might have been unhappy with what was going on but he might have been against kneeling during the national anthem like a lot of Americans.

Anyways I'm out of this thread, it's too much like social media for me.

A biographer of Tillman has stated 'he would be the first to kneel' - and Pat Tillman's wife went out of her way to have a go at the people invoking Tillman's name (and death) to attack Kaepernick.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/09/04/he-would-be-first-kneel-pat-tillman-exploited-attack-kaepernick-biographer-says/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.93d1bc93a2f7

Manic Moran

The other one going around is Glen Coffee. Also a draft pick who played for the 49ers, he, too, joined the military after giving up his NFL career. Unlike Tillman, he did not die, and has been reinstated by the NFL last year as a free agent after finishing his time in the Army, currently coaches for Alabama. If he has stated a position on kneeling, I have not heard it, but he is apparently not first in line.

Jolly Red Giant

Manic Moran wrote: »

The other one going around is Glen Coffee. Also a draft pick who played for the 49ers, he, too, joined the military after giving up his NFL career. Unlike Tillman, he did not die, and has been reinstated by the NFL last year as a free agent after finishing his time in the Army, currently coaches for Alabama. If he has stated a position on kneeling, I have not heard it, but he is apparently not first in line.

Coffee found Jesus and Jesus told him to do it.

raze_them_all_

ELM327 wrote: »

That's a disgusting comment.

Yeah it's this usual thing where the liberals feel free to appropriate feelings/stances on those that are dead because they can't respond.


Pat Tillman was in the military and wouldn't have shown disrespect to the military, the flag, or the anthem.

We'll nevber know, the precious military killed him and tried to cover it up

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

That's a disgusting comment.

Yeah it's this usual thing where the liberals feel free to appropriate feelings/stances on those that are dead because they can't respond.

Pat Tillman was in the military and wouldn't have shown disrespect to the military, the flag, or the anthem.

Conflicts like WW2 were fought about the right to respect the difference of opinion? Yes or no?

http://time.com/4956246/war-veteran-kneel-nfl-players/

helimachoptor

Guys, lease keep it civil.

We would prefer not to be banning people in game week 1

Podge_irl

eagle eye wrote: »

Anyways I'm out of this thread, it's too much like social media for me.

Not the first time you've claimed this and yet here you are again.

Something that I had forgotten until it popped up on social media.

When the very white Tim Tebow took a knee for his religion and to protest abortion in 2012, where was the outcry?

j8wk2feszrnpao

Deleted User wrote: »

Something that I had forgotten until it popped up on social media.

When the very white Tim Tebow took a knee for his religion and to protest abortion in 2012, where was the outcry?

Wasn't that shown to be false and just a attempt by some to muddy the water for their cause? I thought he came out and denied it himself.

munstermagic11

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Wasn't that shown to be false and just a attempt by some to muddy the water for their cause? I thought he came out and denied it himself.

Could well be, it's a social media thing.

Snopes says he took a knee but not during the anthem. I may have done poor Tim a disservice...

Jolly Red Giant

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Wasn't that shown to be false and just a attempt by some to muddy the water for their cause? I thought he came out and denied it himself.

Tebow was constantly kneeling down and praying during games - this was the 3rd qtr in the play-off game against the Steelers



This was a week later before the play-off game against the Pats



Tebow claims he never knelt during the anthem - he probably didn't - but I am sure that people are scouring through every game he ever played trying to find out if he did (and good luck to them - I wouldn't bother).

The difference between Tebow and Kaepernick - is that Tebow was constantly invoking religion - it was 'in your face' type stuff. Kaepernick's protest was never of the same character - he was not attempting to be an evangelist - his first protest was sitting in the background during a pre-season game. In fact - he wasn't the only player to sit that day - apparently the Seahawks Jeremy Lane sat beside him. Unlike Kaepernick - Lane (who also engaged in further protests) continued to play for the Seahawks - the Texans even traded for him in 2017 only for the trade to be void because Lane was injured.

It is also worth nothing that many players and coaching staff on the sidelines constantly do things other than stand for the anthem - as seen from this photo. But then again, the issue isn't that you fail to stand and 'respect' - its that you are willing to protest against injustice.

Foxtrol

Ford came out supporting the rights of players to protest how the see fit. Look forward to some videos of hillbillies setting their pickup trucks on fire

Billy86

To be fair, the Tebow anthem protest of abortions story is false - https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/tim-tebow-kneel-anthem

Shame he didn't make it in a way, the Jesus-offs between him and Russell Wilson would be absolutely epic.

Billy86

Nike sales up 31% since taking on Kaepernick. Their stock is also right back where it was

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/what-boycott-nike-sales-are-31-percent-kaepernick-campaign-n908251

And I absolutely guarantee some of those were from people who tore up or burned their stuff and then almost immediately went out to buy more. :pac:

j8wk2feszrnpao

Billy86 wrote: »

Nike sales up 31% since taking on Kaepernick. Their stock is also right back where it was

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/what-boycott-nike-sales-are-31-percent-kaepernick-campaign-n908251

And I absolutely guarantee some of those were from people who tore up or burned their stuff and then almost immediately went out to buy more. :pac:

Wasn't there a report that he's been with them since ~2012?
I know it's Labor Day weekend sales, but Nike knew it wasn't going to hurt them.
Just as there are fools who'll burn stuff, there are fools that buy stuff at $175 https://kaepernick7.com/collections/...roducts/jersey

Billy86

munstermagic11 wrote: »

Wasn't there a report that he's been with them since ~2012?
I know it's Labor Day weekend sales, but Nike knew it wasn't going to hurt them.
Just as there are fools who'll burn stuff, there are fools that buy stuff at $175 https://kaepernick7.com/collections/...roducts/jersey

Not that I'm aware of - the NFL has been with Nike since 2012 but no sign of Kaepernick from a Google search. And even if he were, nobody has been aware of it until a week or two back with said ad which is what the article was highlighting: Nike sales jumped by 31 percent after debuting quarterback-turned-activist Colin Kaepernick as a new company spokesman — and market observers say the president’s public displays of anger may have backfired by drawing more attention to Nike.

Labor Day weekend also does not account for a 31% increase in sales, especially for a product that apparently is being boycotted. Adidas stock went down a similar level to Nike's at the same time, but has not recovered. This is similar to when the same crowd smashed up the Keurig coffee machines only to then have the guy they were smashing them on behalf of go and buy them hundreds of new ones. End result: Keurig made a nice little bit of change and had a sales boost directly thanks to the same people who smashed theirs up as an act of (wait for it...) protest.

(wouldn't work as a link, so embedded)
https://twitter.com/seanhannity/status/944051859479777280

I also think the $175 jersey thing is a big missed opportunity on his part and a dumb price point. If he sold them at the same price as regular NFL jerseys (which seems to be about $80-100) he could have really got one over on the NFL by having hundreds of those in the stands every week. So a missed opportunity there, but a huge win for Nike and Kaepernick at the expense of the NFL and in no small part due to Donald Trump's attempts to influence things in the other direction.

j8wk2feszrnpao

Billy86 wrote: »

Labor Day weekend also does not account for a 31% increase in sales

The article I saw said it was over the Labor Day extended weekend.

Billy86 wrote: »

So a missed opportunity there, but a huge win for Nike and Kaepernick at the expense of the NFL

I don't think the NFL is doing too badly.

The article I saw kinda summed this all up really. Two years later the discussion is about Kap, protesting, the flag, the military, Trump, Nike........ and the actually issue not getting the coverage.

Billy86

munstermagic11 wrote: »

The article I saw said it was over the Labor Day extended weekend.

Yes, but it also says that last year by comparison the jump was 17% - so it basically doubled the jump of last year despite there apparently being a boycott going on. Labor Day weekend does mean a bump in sales, but only about half of the 31% bump Nike just saw.

I don't think the NFL is doing too badly.

The article I saw kinda summed this all up really. Two years later the discussion is about Kap, protesting, the flag, the military, Trump, Nike........ and the actually issue not getting the coverage.

You're right that the NFL is doing pretty great all in all - the talk of "falling TV ratings" is gibberish because of the likes of Gamepass and other similar setups, which have NFL breaking record revenue year on year.

I'm also not surprised to see a lack of coverage on the issue as it's something a large amount of anti-protesters simply do not want to acknowledge and are hostile towards having pointed out to them, and then you have the US President breaking the laws of his own country while also making it into a large political issue to distract from his own unfortunate headlines.

This is often the case with protests, that those against them want to deal with everything but the issue itself - hence why those protesting have felt the need to resort to doing so. Sometimes the issue does not get addressed and sometimes it does, but in the case of the latter it often takes a long time for that to happen.

TOss Sweep

Didn't go as well as they though it would those boycotting and Burning Nike stuff

Nike stock hits all-time high, sparking climb in corporate value of roughly $5 billion since Kaepernick deal was announced

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/09/14/nike-stock-closes-at-a-record-high/

Can't be attributed to the KAp thing definitively but seen as those who hate Kap used the 3% decrease we might as well use their argument back against them

Foxtrol

Kaepernick settled with the NFL and looks like he got paid...

https://twitter.com/mikefreemanNFL/status/1096495453548564480