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Indent on the green - rule.

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  • 27-05-2018 10:48pm
    #1
    backspin.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭


    Does anyone know what the rule is regarding your ball coming to rest in an indent on the green. Say after the green was hollow-tined or just a regular indent. You mark your ball clean it etc as you do, must you replace the ball back into the exact spot where it is sat back in the indent.

    This has happened to me a number of times and i've missed short putts over it.

    Can you fix the indent to make it flat or must you place the ball down into it if that is exactly where the ball came to rest?


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    #2
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Well you can repair old pitch marks, even under your ball. If you move your ball marker in the process, it can be replaced witout penalty. So I'd repair any damage to the green that might affect my putt.


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    #3
    backspin.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭backspin.


    Does the same apply for hollow tined greens? Particularly when they do the larger holed hollow tining.


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    #4
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,164 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Depends on a local rule

    Appendix 1, A, 3.d
    . Course Conditions - Mud, Extreme Wetness, Poor Conditions and Protection of the Course

    d. Aeration Holes

    When a course has been aerated, a Local Rule permitting relief, without penalty, from an aeration hole may be warranted. The following Local Rule is recommended:

    "Through the green, a ball that comes to rest in or on an aeration hole may be lifted without penalty, cleaned and dropped as near as possible to the spot where it lay but not nearer the hole. The ball when dropped must first strike a part of the course through the green.

    On the putting green, a ball that comes to rest in or on an aeration hole may be placed at the nearest spot not nearer the hole that avoids the situation.


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    #5
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,164 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Well you can repair old pitch marks, even under your ball. If you move your ball marker in the process, it can be replaced witout penalty. So I'd repair any damage to the green that might affect my putt.

    You specifically cannot repair "any" damage that might affect your putt.

    Pitch marks and old holes only, nothing else.


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    #6
    backspin.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭backspin.


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Depends on a local rule

    Appendix 1, A, 3.d

    On the putting green, a ball that comes to rest in or on an aeration hole may be placed at the nearest spot not nearer the hole that avoids the situation.

    Very interesting. I must bring this up with some of the committee members at my club. I have always felt it unfair to have to sit the ball back in a large hollow-tined hole. Anyone i asked about it sort of shrugged their shoulders and just didn't know the rule.

    It happened again on Sunday where my ball came to rest in what i think was an old badly repaired pitch-mark. But i wasn't sure it was an actual pitch-mark so i just placed it back in the indent again. That is quite rare but we hollow tine twice a year so there is about 6 weeks every year where there are indents due to the hollow tining. I'd like to get something definitive on that.


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    #7
    ssbob
    Registered Users Posts: 2,736 ✭✭✭ssbob


    backspin. wrote: »

    It happened again on Sunday where my ball came to rest in what i think was an old badly repaired pitch-mark. But i wasn't sure it was an actual pitch-mark so i just placed it back in the indent again. That is quite rare but we hollow tine twice a year so there is about 6 weeks every year where there are indents due to the hollow tining. I'd like to get something definitive on that.

    Did you confer with your playing partners - if all reasonably agreed it was a pitchmark you could have repaired - I would think that no one should be gunning for a score on hollow thined greens either way.... it's just not a good indicator of putting - ball can jump left, right or even over the hole....


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    #8
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    GreeBo wrote: »
    You specifically cannot repair "any" damage that might affect your putt.

    Pitch marks and old holes only, nothing else.
    Pedantic much? :D


    I clearly should have mentioned worm casts and spike marks as exceptions. Because that's what the OP was asking about.:rolleyes:


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    #9
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,164 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    Pedantic much? :D


    I clearly should have mentioned worm casts and spike marks as exceptions. Because that's what the OP was asking about.:rolleyes:

    Everything other than pitch mark or old cups are "exceptions" since these are the only thing you can repair.


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    #10
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,375 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Everything other than pitch mark or old cups are "exceptions" since these are the only thing you can repair.
    And the pedantry continues. The vast majority of indents on a green are from the ball pitching on it. Hollow tining marks are the next most likely. But I'm sure you'll find something pedantic in the above to correct me on. :rolleyes:


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    #11
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,164 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    prawnsambo wrote: »
    And the pedantry continues. The vast majority of indents on a green are from the ball pitching on it. Hollow tining marks are the next most likely. But I'm sure you'll find something pedantic in the above to correct me on. :rolleyes:

    Hollow-tining marks...which you cannot fix under any circumstances?

    I'll say it again.
    The ONLY things you can fix on a green are pitch marks and old cup holes.
    Thats it. Nothing else.

    Knowing and following the rules isn't pedantic.


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    #12
    kiers47
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,564 ✭✭✭kiers47


    This will be a pointless thread/argument in about 7 months! :pac:


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    #13
    Deep Thought
    Registered Users Posts: 4,444 ✭✭✭Deep Thought


    would I be correct in saying that you cannot repair a pitch-mark or any other damage that you have created? eg. hit the green, ball makes a pitch-mark and rolls back couple of inches, now the mark is in your line...but tough luck as you made the pitch-mark.

    DT

    The narrower a man’s mind, the broader his statements.



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    #14
    backspin.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭backspin.


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Hollow-tining marks...which you cannot fix under any circumstances?.

    You can place your ball away from a hollow tined hole but not repair it. Is that the case. Or is that only if ok'ed for local rules.

    If I was in a match against you greebo and my ball came to rest in a hollow tined hole. What would you say I could do?

    I'm just trying to get clarification on the issue.


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    #15
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,164 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Deep Thought wrote: »
    would I be correct in saying that you cannot repair a pitch-mark or any other damage that you have created? eg. hit the green, ball makes a pitch-mark and rolls back couple of inches, now the mark is in your line...but tough luck as you made the pitch-mark.

    DT

    You can repair a pitch mark on the green at any time, your ball doesn't need to be on the green.


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    #16
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,164 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    backspin. wrote: »
    You can place your ball away from a hollow tined hole but not repair it. Is that the case. Or is that only if ok'ed for local rules.

    If I was in a match against you greebo and my ball came to rest in a hollow tined hole. What would you say I could do?

    I'm just trying to get clarification on the issue.

    If a local rule allows you can move it out of the hole, otherwise you have to play it.
    There is never a scenario where you can repair it.


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    #17
    Seve OB
    Registered Users Posts: 16,006 ✭✭✭✭Seve OB


    Deep Thought wrote: »
    would I be correct in saying that you cannot repair a pitch-mark or any other damage that you have created? eg. hit the green, ball makes a pitch-mark and rolls back couple of inches, now the mark is in your line...but tough luck as you made the pitch-mark.

    DT

    you would be incorrrect


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    #18
    Bottle
    Registered Users Posts: 140 ✭✭Bottle


    I got pulled up in a match last year when I asked my opponent on an away course if I could repair what looked like an unrepaired pitch mark. He pointed out that it was a pock mark from fusarium which had affected their greens and I should not repair it, he was right but they should have a local rule to allow repair.

    It was right in the line of my putt and when the ball went over the mark it pushed it offline.

    Still beat him 2up.


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    #19
    backspin.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭backspin.


    I don't understand why we can't fix any damage or dent of any sort on the green. Ideally the green should be true. Why should you be punished for green damage.

    Say you have a 10 footer for par on a blemish free part of the green. You still have to sink the putt. And if someone comes to that exact spot a few hours later and there is now some sort on damage/indent on the green. What is the issue with fixing it. They'd still have to sink the same 10 footer.


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    #20
    paulos53
    Registered Users Posts: 1,013 ✭✭✭paulos53


    backspin. wrote: »
    I don't understand why we can't fix any damage or dent of any sort on the green. Ideally the green should be true. Why should you be punished for green damage.

    Say you have a 10 footer for par on a blemish free part of the green. You still have to sink the putt. And if someone comes to that exact spot a few hours later and there is now some sort on damage/indent on the green. What is the issue with fixing it. They'd still have to sink the same 10 footer.

    This will all change in 2019. From January you will be allowed to repair almost all damage except aeration holes


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    #21
    backspin.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭backspin.


    paulos53 wrote: »
    This will all change in 2019. From January you will be allowed to repair almost all damage except aeration holes

    That's good. You will have more people repairing damage to greens and that can only be a good thing.

    The aeration holes should be dealt with too. Outside of local rules.


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    #22
    Seve OB
    Registered Users Posts: 16,006 ✭✭✭✭Seve OB


    backspin. wrote: »
    I don't understand why we can't fix any damage or dent of any sort on the green. Ideally the green should be true. Why should you be punished for green damage.

    I agree with you.. but Greebo will be along soon :D


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    #23
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,164 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Seve OB wrote: »
    I agree with you.. but Greebo will be along soon :D

    Don't believe I gave an opinion, just the facts, pedantic or otherwise.

    Fwiw I think it's only going to slow the game down further as people get their Monty Don on.


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    #24
    HighLine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,378 ✭✭✭HighLine


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Don't believe I gave an opinion, just the facts, pedantic or otherwise.

    Fwiw I think it's only going to slow the game down further as people get their Monty Don on.

    Indeed it will. Could you imagine the likes of Padraig repairing any slight blemish anywhere near his line.


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    #25
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,164 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    backspin. wrote: »
    I don't understand why we can't fix any damage or dent of any sort on the green. Ideally the green should be true. Why should you be punished for green damage.

    Say you have a 10 footer for par on a blemish free part of the green. You still have to sink the putt. And if someone comes to that exact spot a few hours later and there is now some sort on damage/indent on the green. What is the issue with fixing it. They'd still have to sink the same 10 footer.

    Say you are in a bit of heavier than normal grass in the rough, should you be able to drop out?
    Or how about a less than perfect lie in the bunker?

    It's a game played in a field after all...


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    #26
    ssbob
    Registered Users Posts: 2,736 ✭✭✭ssbob


    GreeBo wrote: »
    backspin. wrote: »
    I don't understand why we can't fix any damage or dent of any sort on the green. Ideally the green should be true. Why should you be punished for green damage.

    Say you have a 10 footer for par on a blemish free part of the green. You still have to sink the putt. And if someone comes to that exact spot a few hours later and there is now some sort on damage/indent on the green. What is the issue with fixing it. They'd still have to sink the same 10 footer.

    Say you are in a bit of heavier than normal grass in the rough, should you be able to drop out?
    Or how about a less than perfect lie in the bunker?

    It's a game played in a field after all...
    Rough is supposed to be different lengths hence "rough" - greens should be consistent but I agree on following the rules!


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    #27
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,164 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    ssbob wrote: »
    Rough is supposed to be different lengths hence "rough" - greens should be consistent but I agree on following the rules!

    Nothing more consistent than hollow core holes every inch of the surface:pac:

    But seriously, I don't see anything that would imply rough should be inconsistent and greens should be...what about fairways or bunkers?


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    #28
    backspin.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭backspin.


    HighLine wrote: »
    Indeed it will. Could you imagine the likes of Padraig repairing any slight blemish anywhere near his line.

    Yeah that puts another angle on it alright. Could slow play a lot.


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    #29
    ssbob
    Registered Users Posts: 2,736 ✭✭✭ssbob


    GreeBo wrote: »
    But seriously, I don't see anything that would imply rough should be inconsistent and greens should be...what about fairways or bunkers?
    But why is it called "rough"? surely that's implying inconsistency ? Fairways and bunkers less so but greens I would expect to be consistent..... But again I follow the rules...


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    #30
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,164 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    ssbob wrote: »
    But why is it called "rough"? surely that's implying inconsistency ? Fairways and bunkers less so but greens I would expect to be consistent..... But again I follow the rules...

    Well greens aren't called smooth, so as long as they are green you can't have any complaints!?


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    #31
    ssbob
    Registered Users Posts: 2,736 ✭✭✭ssbob


    GreeBo wrote: »
    ssbob wrote: »
    But why is it called "rough"? surely that's implying inconsistency ? Fairways and bunkers less so but greens I would expect to be consistent..... But again I follow the rules...

    Well greens aren't called smooth, so as long as they are green you can't have any complaints!?
    They are often referred to as carpets - do you have inconsistent carpets at home?


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