Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 3 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

Deegan is nowhere near good enough with the sliotar to be half back. Corner back maybe.

Murphy is wasted at corner back.

I've never been a fan of Fogarty in any position. Just not good enough.

digzy

Tbf lads I think it’s time to let the red card go.
The footage speaks for itself.

Reading the posts here is like reading the tipp thread over the previous years when we were short. Everything is wrong, manager, players structures, underage......
I remember we got an unmerciful hiding in 2012, but came back in 2013 and were competitive in Nolan Park. Any team can have a misfire. It hasn’t happened ye too often.

Fact is that up to a certain stage the cats were in the driving seat in an all Ireland final, having beaten cork and limerick.

Ye’re not too far away ( unfortunately). I believe that the biggest issues were selecting players not fully fit and lumping the ball into crowded areas outside the tipp defensive ‘d’. While Cody is the greatest manager of all time I doubt a John Kiely or a Davy Fitz would have persisted with that tactic for so long.
Tj Reid is the best player in the country bar none and probably one of the all time greats. There’s nothing he can’t do. Think a fit and in form aylward is another man with star potential.

There’s plenty examples of successful underage sides not translating to senior success.

I fancy limerick to win out next year. Can’t imagine cork will be down much longer either given what they’re doing at underage and sheer strength of numbers.

Lefty Bicek

digzy wrote: »

Tbf lads I think it’s time to let the red card go.
The footage speaks for itself.

You're missing the point.

Grats

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

You're missing the point.

Precisely. I said it before in a previous post - if, after considering all available advice, Richie Hogan wishes to pursue an appeal, he's perfectly entitled to do so. It will be then up to the CCCC to decide and not journalists, posters or anybody else.

Almost everybody was of the opinion that it wasn't a red card at first. It was only when they looked at four different angles they changed their minds. The ref and his officials didn't have the benefit of videos and in slow motion. The CCCC will and will also have other related evidence such as discussions between the ref and others on the day.

kilkennyboy

Grats wrote: »

Precisely. I said it before in a previous post - if, after considering all available advice, Richie Hogan wishes to pursue an appeal, he's perfectly entitled to do so. It will be then up to the CCCC to decide and not journalists, posters or anybody else.

Almost everybody was of the opinion that it wasn't a red card at first. It was only when they looked at four different angles they changed their minds. The ref and his officials didn't have the benefit of videos and in slow motion. The CCCC will and will also have other related evidence such as discussions between the ref and others on the day.

As I said before this is nothing to do with tipp they are worthy champs
This is more about galway and wexford next June.

I don't think the ccc will bring any evidence my understanding of how this works
And it's a bit outdated in my opinion.
The only evidence the ccc can use is a match report from the referee.
And it has to be from memory he can't check back and make his decision.

If video evidence is to be used it has to be introduced by the defense then it can be considered. If the county board receives the report and if its wording is not in line with what actually happened. Smallest details get these rescinded..

For example striking with the elbow then it has to be a strike with the elbow if
It's not clear whether it was elbow or shoulder. Tossed out

The problem the gaa have is they are dealing with a 100 year old rule book
Being defended by club officers. Against trained barristers who go after details.

Grats

What's to stop a ref completing his report after viewing TV and listening to opinions late Sunday night or on the following day? When is a report sent in?

kilkennyboy

Grats wrote: »

What's to stop a ref completing his report after viewing TV and listening to opinions late Sunday night or on the following day? When is a report sent in?

Probably very little.county board should have it by the Wednesday. But the same rules have to apply for the lads playing a junior A final in nowlan park as a all Ireland. Sometimes there will be no video evidence
And its very difficult to overturn.
It will be interesting to see what the charge is
Striking or attempting to strike possible or
Dangerous play is difficult to defend as its vague.

Cleverer men than me will be looking at it.
But in general appeals nearly always get it rescinded.

1373

Grats wrote: »

Precisely. I said it before in a previous post - if, after considering all available advice, Richie Hogan wishes to pursue an appeal, he's perfectly entitled to do so. It will be then up to the CCCC to decide and not journalists, posters or anybody else.

Almost everybody was of the opinion that it wasn't a red card at first. It was only when they looked at four different angles they changed their minds. The ref and his officials didn't have the benefit of videos and in slow motion. The CCCC will and will also have other related evidence such as discussions between the ref and others on the day.

The fourth camera shot showed the head bang and that would have been a similar angle the ref had

kilkennyboy

1373 wrote: »

The fourth camera shot showed the head bang and that would have been a similar angle the ref had

Possibly but if I'm honest I had to look at it 4 times in slow motion and I'm still not sure how severe the contact was.

Grats

1373 wrote: »

The fourth camera shot showed the head bang and that would have been a similar angle the ref had

Are you positive about that as the ref looked very lost about it from the start. If he had the view as you suggest he would have issued the red card immediately I would have thought.

sportsmaddad

Teneo boss calls for County Teams to share costs.

Did anyone think it a bit strange that the boss of Tipps sponsor, Teneo, was on RTE1 today, calling for a review of the way County Teams are funded? They barely touched on last week's success, all the talk was about the costs of running County teams.

Is it only dawning on them now the cost of this business? Training camps in Spain. A back room team of somewhere between 20 and 30 professionals.

It makes you wonder where all this team sponsorship is going to end? By all accounts Limerick have had huge financial assistance from JP McManus. And Tipp have certainly done nicely out of Teneo (worth hundreds of millions, owned by an old school buddy of Liam Sheedy BTW). Stories going around that Michael Donoghue wasn't happy with the resources made available to Galway by comparison. And not to mention Dublin & AIG.

Are KK being left behind in these stakes?

dubcat51

Grats wrote: »

Are you positive about that as the ref looked very lost about it from the start. If he had the view as you suggest he would have issued the red card immediately I would have thought.

Look the replays dont look good but no one near me kk or tipp thought it was a red.eddie brennan on radio after the game raised the point about someone in the refs ear.

The Lost Sheep

Saddleview wrote: »

Agree re speed but there's definitely more our county can do to nurture it. The development squads machine is efficient across the country and larger counties are getting their best athletes and hurlers on the field. Having a lower population than our big rivals means we have to get every drop out of what we have. And it's not just speed. It's agility, nimbleness and quickfooted we really lack in. I believe it's something our county has to look at but unfortunately it's something that has to be caught and coached from a very early age (unfortunately not as interesting as throwing the ball in).

You are right in that it has to be coached from an early age but simple hurling focused/stick work drills can easily include that work to improve speed, agility, quickness.

The squads were great but more can be done. This year's minor A championship will be extremely weak, exception the Boro, and partly because the minor county squad is spread throughout the county. But my main worry is the club players left behind. There has to be a widening of the net to assist the rising tides lifts all boats etc. Kids are idle because of the county, and increasingly are not from big families hurling against each other in free time.

Minor county squad being more widely spread out is better off for county in long term. it widens pool and far better than small number of clubs with a large number of county reps easier.

I still can't understand our huge drop off from minor to U21.

Same with all sports. Beer, college, work, girls. Take your pick. Will be something do with with one or all of above.

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

Eoin Everard was brought in this year and gave a couple of workshops to coaches with the Kilkenny U16 squads early in the year. I believe he did more work with the squads without club coaches. All club coaches were invited to these sessions. The idea was to inform coaches on what to look out for and how to improve technique with a view to maximising a players potential speed rather than actually making them faster.

But it's EXTREMELY technical. And if you're only training twice a week trying to teach a 13/14/15 year old how to do A and B steps and not to run with their heels is difficult while also trying to do beginners strength training and hurling on top of that. The running needs to be done at nursery level and then re-taught after a child hits puberty, hits a growth spurt and their body mechanics go to pot. Then the reality is that most club coaches are parents who let's face it can't run for **** so how do they demonstrate it to kids how to do it correctly?

Doing work with the youngest age groups(just me but dont like phrase nursery to describe younger ages....)
Run tech should be taught at all age groups and all levels including senior inter county.

People note the need for S&C to be introduced to get the young lads ready for intercounty hurling but do you realise the commitment that takes from that young lad? You're talking 3 or 4 nights a week of hard strength training which is boring as **** if you're not into it. You're going to lose a percentage because of that.

Then you've got the lads who make the minor panel because they're the best at their age. Then they go in to open senior hurling and quite frankly they just aren't good enough.

S&C to be a better hurler doesnt mean at all hard strength training.

I believe the development squads are flawed. I attended a session during the summer where As and Bs trained on different fields and did two completely different sessions. Not a single thing matched. So the sessions are being left to the individuals in charge of their team rather than the county having a cohesive plan.

development squads arent flawed but whoever has A and Bs should be shot especially if theyre not training and working together.
But for that to be sorted you need an overall figure for entire county responsible for long term player development who ensures coaches of county development squads are following agreed practices for the county.

I believe we should have a north squad, a south squad and a city squad at the start of every year where each club sends in 3 or 4 players. Train once a week with the county, then in June its streamlined into two squads and then start again the following year with the same format. Lads continuously get chances to break into the squads every year then rather than the same lads automatically getting spots year on year.

That got very long, it's late and it may not make sense. I just ended up freestyling a bit so apologies.

That works but it shouldnt simply be every club sends 3/4 players. Coaches of the regional sides for north/south/city should be going around clubs and the schools watching games and inviting players to the initial sessions with clubs also able to pick players beyond that and yes squads should constantly be changing as best at 15 are not best at 18

tbiggertycome wrote: »

I asked him why he didn't get called in before now and what he told me really disappointed me but didn't shock me. They've had the same father as their manager since U12's and the club always ask him to pick the lads to go into development squads. He always picked his son and 2 of his sons good friends even though (and maybe because) they weren't a patch on this lad or a few others on the team. It's really sad to see this. Although as a father you can see why he might take the opportunity to expose his lad to this environment but to continually send them in when they weren't up to it must have been hard on the lads themselves. This same club is absolutely struggling and if they continue to treat their players like this that will continue.

Thats why having clubs recommend players cant simply be answer. You need open screening sessions as well where county coaches run drills/have some games and anyone underage/eligible for team can turn up and be assessed in case their club hasnt nominated them.

Personally I think if there isn't already there should be a scouting panel of 30 to 40 ex players drawn up and they need to see each team at least twice. Not every member of the scouting panel but at least 5 of them. Now this panel should be made of ex senior intercounty players not just hurlers on the ditch like myself. I also believe those same lads or some of the ex senior players anyway need to be coaching the development squads. That was the original idea, that the ex players got involved and brough on these young lads I don't think there are too many ex senior intercounty players hands on these days with development squads and I think this is a major flaw in the system.

I dont think the people going around assessing players with potential to play on county teams necessarily should have to be ex county players. Yes some more county players when they finish playing at that level should be involved with developing the next generation but not necessarily with county sides first. You need your best coaches to be coaching inter county u4/15/16 etc and not having people there simply because they were talented players themselves.

I also have wondered is there a file on each of these players that the county board controls? I doubt it personally but I think there should be. You would put down basic information like height, weight, lefthanded/righthanded, hurling hand, position played, injury history, willingness to train, attendance, weaknesses, strengths, S&C programs completed, etc etc. So when a new coach gets appointed or a new batch of players, they have a file on each player and they can add to it and pass it on.

Very hard to get that done and managed at least properly

Alonzo Moseley

sportsmaddad wrote: »

Teneo boss calls for County Teams to share costs.

Did anyone think it a bit strange that the boss of Tipps sponsor, Teneo, was on RTE1 today, calling for a review of the way County Teams are funded? They barely touched on last week's success, all the talk was about the costs of running County teams.

Is it only dawning on them now the cost of this business? Training camps in Spain. A back room team of somewhere between 20 and 30 professionals.

It makes you wonder where all this team sponsorship is going to end? By all accounts Limerick have had huge financial assistance from JP McManus. And Tipp have certainly done nicely out of Teneo (worth hundreds of millions, owned by an old school buddy of Liam Sheedy BTW). Stories going around that Michael Donoghue wasn't happy with the resources made available to Galway by comparison. And not to mention Dublin & AIG.

Are KK being left behind in these stakes?

I have been itching to have a crack at this subject but am time constrained so hope to return to it in more detail later in week.
But yes, this is something that is deeply worrying for me as a Kilkenny man (as I believe on balance it is a development that will proportionally hurt us)

The winners of the last 3 Hurling All Ireland's had one common denominator, they were massively resourced.

Three of the semi finalists this year are undoubtedly the current three counties that are best resourced in hurling with massive external (ie outside county board funding) available to them.

Counties with small populations and no access to a major backer (sponsor and/or sugar daddy) will continue to fall further and further behind.
If you are an Offaly man in his 50s you saw your county win at the highest level in both codes, yet you would now accept no matter how long you live you will almost certainly never see them win in either code again.
Some of Offaly's demise is self inflicted, most of it it is due to playing size and resources, the more each game became professional the more they fell away

The template has been set with the Dublin juggernaut, and while I do not see any hurling county being able to replicate that level of disparity, I do see a worrying trend.
The Tipp set up is reported to have 27 back room staff, Limerick's last years was about the same.
The twine needed to run that size of an operation is huge and beyond the capacity of all bar 2 or 3 counties

This is not sour grapes, an AI hurling title cannot and will not be won by a county without an exceptionally talented number of hurlers but money is definitely starting to have a big impact on the direction of silverware.
Let's for moment call it an edge.

I am speculating, but I agree that it is likely Michael O' Donoghue's resignation may well be related to a cash strapped County Board unable to match Tipp and Limerick's war chest and a pragmatic realisation by him that if you cannot at least match your main rivals in resources, you will likely come up short
BTW: Good wishes to O'Donoghue, a class act and modesty personified.

Even greed obsessed American sports have long realised that financial disparity among teams if let go unchecked will in the long term harm their sports by creating lack of competitive championships, so definitely an area GAA need to get a handle on

Stuck for time but very keen to return to this in greater depth.

sportsmaddad

Alonzo Moseley wrote: »

Counties with small populations and no access to a major backer (sponsor and/or sugar daddy) will continue to fall further and further behind..

I agree, I think this is an extremely worrying trend. There's no doubt it's a factor in Dublin's football domination.

It just struck me as extremely odd that the Teneo CEO was on the radio going on about it, within a week of getting the ultimate payback they could have expected from their sponsorship.

We had a lot of talk earlier this season about the need to bring more counties to the top hurling table. If this continues, it's going to whittle down pretty fast. As you say, definitely a topic worth further discussion....

zetecescort

Ah lads, you'd swear Avonmore were still a small Co-op fed by a few lads on donkey and cart rather than an international company. Money is surely one thing ye dont lack for

bruschi

Alonzo Moseley wrote: »

Three of the semi finalists this year are undoubtedly the current three counties that are best resourced in hurling with massive external (ie outside county board funding) available to them.

Where are Wexford getting this massive external funding from?

brookville

I dont think money is an issue in our county but i do take the point that when you look at wexford,tipp and limericks back room teams ours look tiny.It was intresting to read john mullane on todays independent defending cody and basically saying it was a great achievement getting us to the final taking out limerick and cork on the way.He also said he wouldnt be suprised to see someone like derek McGrath added to the backroom team for next year.No matter what happens over the next few months it will be intriguing to see what steps we take.

Grats

We weren't that far off despite not having 27 in the backroom team and vasts amount of money. The minimum we need though is a backs and forwards coach. Brian Cody cannot do it all any longer. It was fine when we had on field leaders who had the confidence and experience. Those coaches need not cost much as they could act as selectors also.

dzer2

Cody and co have nearly got it right held Tipps best forwards scoreless until the sending off.

BloodyBill

Money greases the wheels and there is no doubt about that. The game has developed to a stage where the top teams have 25 to 30 good players, no major disparities. Now Tipp are slightly ahead with the forwards they have but in general the top 5 teams have similar talent. So the next big thing is tactics. And following that is fitness,sports science, psychology, physio, physical therapist, analysis ect. The more money ,the better the personnel.
Money is still an issue for Limerick. The McManus brothers split the costs of running the hurling. JP runs the seniors and his brother runs the academy. And this runs into millions and millions and still the County board struggles to get cash to renovate stuff and get the Rathkeale centre up and running. The other advantage is facilities. They use UL as do Clare. It's got the best sports facilities in Ireland and that includes UCD. All weather floodlit pitches in probably the most sheltered area in the county..and then theres the gym facilities...other world type stuff. Theres single machines there that cost 6 figures. Now the man has to push or pull the weight but all put together the excuses for not performing suddenly disappear and kids from under 14 are soaking all this in. As fit as Tipp are they arent as conditioned as Limerick..I'd use the example of Pauric Maher. Big Biceps and good core strength but compare him to Dan Morrissey..the body fat ect..Dan would be on another level.
But Cork are going to click into gear at some stage and when they do we will all be left in their dust. They ll get the cash. Theyve more gaa players than anyone. The amount of underage squads they have is amazing. When they start winning it will be almost impossible to catch them. I have no doubt about that.

tibruit

brookville wrote: »

I dont think money is an issue in our county but i do take the point that when you look at wexford,tipp and limericks back room teams ours look tiny.It was intresting to read john mullane on todays independent defending cody and basically saying it was a great achievement getting us to the final taking out limerick and cork on the way.He also said he wouldnt be suprised to see someone like derek McGrath added to the backroom team for next year.No matter what happens over the next few months it will be intriguing to see what steps we take.

Ah jeez...Derek McGrath.....I`m choking on my cornflakes. I don`t get the negativity that surrounds the management that is constantly regurgitated on here. The reality is that we have a nucleus of about ten players that got to three consecutive finals and won a back to back. It`s something that Tipp, Galway and Limerick have failed to do since then. This year we`ve unearthed a number of young players who can clearly perform at the highest level. We beat the All Ireland champions and in my opinion the best team out there in the semi final. The half time score in the final was a far fairer reflection of the two teams abilities than the final score. We didn`t overachieve this year.

Derek McGrath seems to be a decent guy who doesn`t have a chip on his shoulder like some others that I can think of, but his approach to hurling is incredibly negative. If ever the term puke hurling could have been applied to a team it was Waterford under him. Plus he inherited a considerable number of talented youngsters that had won a minor All Ireland and they haven`t pushed on. You`d also need to hire an interpretor so that players would understand what he`s saying. For an intelligent guy you`d think he`d understand that he should save the big words for his next address to a Logophile convention. I had to look that up.

kilkennyboy

Their is definitely a leaching effect from the leinster and Munster rugby academy set ups that is driving s&c in a upwardly direction with young gaa players.
The fitzgibon squads would be in that environment .
Kilkenny and wexford currently have the same sponsor gain is a brand of glanbia
As is avonmore.
They are not short a few Bob and the fact you never any complaints in this area says enough.
If they look for anything its provided

Mankbag

zetecescort wrote: »

Ah lads, you'd swear Avonmore were still a small Co-op fed by a few lads on donkey and cart rather than an international company. Money is surely one thing ye dont lack for

You seriously think Avonmore are pumping unlimited money into the Kilkenny hurling team? Please don't be silly.

Stationmaster

Random useless piece of information for ye re strength & conditioning and sports psychology etc - Limerick wear size M adult jerseys instead of size L like other teams (tight fitting of course) to give the impression (both to themselves and others) that they are stronger and more conditioned than other teams.

BloodyBill

Stationmaster wrote: »

Random useless piece of information for ye re strength & conditioning and sports psychology etc - Limerick wear size M adult jerseys instead of size L like other teams (tight fitting of course) to give the impression (both to themselves and others) that they are stronger and more conditioned than other teams.

Haha..that's hilarious. They still have to be able to pull off the look though.. Lee Chin wears a size 'S' and is actually sewn into it by Davy personally beforehand in the physio room before the game..Davy tends to let the hands wander I hear aswell..Tipp wear a size 'M' but with a specially designed baggy torso below the chest to cover the belly.

Lefty Bicek

Ah, the psychology of kit. Let's hope Cody doesn't read Ian St. John's autobiography.

As then Liverpool centre-forward Ian St John mentioned in his autobiography, “He [Shankly] thought the colour scheme would carry psychological impact—red for danger, red for power. He came into the dressing room one day and threw a pair of red shorts to Ronnie Yeats.

‘Get into those shorts and let's see how you look’, he said. ‘Christ, Ronnie, you look awesome, terrifying. You look 7ft tall.’ ‘Why not go the whole hog, boss?’ I (Ian St John) suggested. ‘Why not wear red socks? Let's go out all in red.;” Shankly approved the suggestion and like that the iconic all Red Kit was born.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/football/history-behind-liverpools-all-red-kit

Don't want anyone to think we're Langers.

kilkennyboy

Screenshot_20190826-192744_Chrome.jpg

Might be something in this var theory.

digzy

Dunno about appealing the red card.
The result of the all Ireland could be overturned and a replay ordered.....


Then we could give ye another hiding!!!!

mountgomery burns

Mankbag wrote: »

You seriously think Avonmore are pumping unlimited money into the Kilkenny hurling team? Please don't be silly.

I'm sure Kilkenny did well out of Glanbias sponsorship comparatively over the years. Also, seen as pretty much the entirety of the County's resources are going into hurling I would say they are ok. There's no doubt Tipp and Limerick had access to serious resources this year and beyond but then I do recall Clare having a 26 man backroom team under Davy that yielded little profit. It's not neccessarily the scale but the shrewdness of investment.

It was amazing to a see someone arguing three of the counties in this year semi finals are incredibly well resourced while one is not (Kilkenny he meant) yet Wexford are also sponsored by Glanbia. Jim Bolger might be paying for Davy, he's not pumping huge cash into the setup. And he'd pay double the money or more to have Cody cross the border. I somehow doubt yet management team incurs much of a cost to ye.

Alonzo Moseley

mountgomery burns wrote: »

I'm sure Kilkenny did well out of Glanbias sponsorship comparatively over the years. Also, seen as pretty much the entirety of the County's resources are going into hurling I would say they are ok. There's no doubt Tipp and Limerick had access to serious resources this year and beyond but then I do recall Clare having a 26 man backroom team under Davy that yielded little profit. It's not neccessarily the scale but the shrewdness of investment.

It was amazing to a see someone arguing three of the counties in this year semi finals are incredibly well resourced while one is not (Kilkenny he meant) yet Wexford are also sponsored by Glanbia. Jim Bolger might be paying for Davy, he's not pumping huge cash into the setup. And he'd pay double the money or more to have Cody cross the border. I somehow doubt yet management team incurs much of a cost to ye.

I most certainly did not say or remotely infer that three semi finalists were properly resourced while Kilkenny were not

This is specifically why I have been cautious about joining up here rather than using it to just catch up on valuable local info that isn't freely available.


If you want to contribute to a topic on the increasing influence of increased spending on inter county team and its correlation with silverware, I will happily engage.
If you want to imagine I have some chip on my shoulder that poor old Kilkenny haven't a pot to piss in, and its all so terribly unfair on us, you will be talking to the wall

Kilkenny under Cody and Quinn have had a terrific set up and players were always treated well.
But the ante is being upped now in a serious way by a small number of counties and the fact the the two best resourced have won these last two years is not a coincidence
They might have won without the extra resources, they have the talent, but they left nothing to chance

In another example of how Tipp upped the ante this year, Shane Mc Cormack, one of Ireland's top sprint experts was added to the Tipp backroom team as a dedicated sprint coach and the whole squad did one dedicated sprint session per week with him!

This is serious high level performance and attention to detail, but it is a level that very few counties can afford

mountgomery burns

Apologies I actually thought that comment was made by somebody else. But that said, do you think Wexford are significantly better resourced than Kilkenny? Who is the other of the four, Galway?

They have taken measures to manage their own issues with managing finances so would call that assertion into question:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gaa/galway-gaa-appoint-mark-gottsche-as-finance-and-operations-manager-damian-mcerlain-leaves-derry-937722.html


Clare spent a lot of money under Davy, as did Waterford (money they didn't have half of). There is a problem with the sustainability of the approach of this. Teneo are not going to be supporting Tipp forever, this kind of thing is cyclical to some degree I would say with Dublin being the exception.

I understand the sentiment and you have a point but I think it's part of the demands that are now almost impossible to counteract at elite inter County level. It's very hard for players to balance work, commuting and their personal lives with the demands of inter county level and this is only escalating.

Ultimately, not sure where the breaking point is but I'm sure the examples of talented players walking away (such as Odhran MacNiallais and Tom Devine this year) are going to become more and more prevalent in the coming years. But I'm not sure there's an appetite in the GAA HQ to halt this development as a higher standard means higher quality and a more marketable commercial product, which is there bottom line right now.

Alonzo Moseley

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Apologies I actually thought that comment was made by somebody else. But that said, do you think Wexford are significantly better resourced than Kilkenny? Who is the other of the four, Galway?

They have taken measures to manage their own issues with managing finances so would call that assertion into question:




Clare spent a lot of money under Davy, as did Waterford (money they didn't have half of). There is a problem with the sustainability of the approach of this. Teneo are not going to be supporting Tipp forever, this kind of thing is cyclical to some degree I would say with Dublin being the exception.

I understand the sentiment and you have a point but I think it's part of the demands that are now almost impossible to counteract at elite inter County level. It's very hard for players to balance work, commuting and their personal lives with the demands of inter county level and this is only escalating.

Ultimately, not sure where the breaking point is but I'm sure the examples of talented players walking away (such as Odhran MacNiallais and Tom Devine this year) are going to become more and more prevalent in the coming years. But I'm not sure there's an appetite in the GAA HQ to halt this development as a higher standard means higher quality and a more marketable commercial product, which is there bottom line right now.

Ok, no harm done, we will re-set.
Some good points (especially on lifespan of big donors/sponsors) and yes Galway would not appear if they will be spending big for a while.

Ultimately I think the solution may well be a cap (a generous one and flexible to allow it be extended if you reach latter stages) but allowing a situation to develop where a county competing in the same competition to have maybe a ten fold advantage in financial muscle is inviting trouble on gross disparity and frequency of lob sided non contests (the Munster championship this year had a worrying number of hopelessly one sided matches)
As mentioned earlier, even greed run American sports recognise that sort of template is only going to erode interest in your sport and try to ensure less fashionable franchise cities can still compete via drafts and caps.

I will revert later in week hopefully with a better effort

In meantime, anyone got the equivalent of the 2017 Irish independent county spend analysis for 2018?
I haven't URL privileges yet ,so cannot post the 2017 link.


Incredible to see Roscommon (knocked out in qualifiers by Clare) spent twice as much in 2016 than Kilkenny did despite Kilkenny going to AI final.
Crazy, and also shows you cannot buy success (just in case anyone still thinks this is my core point)But it does show how lousy such resources available to Roscommon are on near rivals like Sligo and Leitrim operating on a fraction of this

Cornerback1

Stationmaster wrote: »

Random useless piece of information for ye re strength & conditioning and sports psychology etc - Limerick wear size M adult jerseys instead of size L like other teams (tight fitting of course) to give the impression (both to themselves and others) that they are stronger and more conditioned than other teams.

It was Joe Kernan and Armagh who started that in early 2000's - teams were beat before they went out when they saw the muscles!

conor05

BloodyBill wrote: »

Money greases the wheels and there is no doubt about that. The game has developed to a stage where the top teams have 25 to 30 good players, no major disparities. Now Tipp are slightly ahead with the forwards they have but in general the top 5 teams have similar talent. So the next big thing is tactics. And following that is fitness,sports science, psychology, physio, physical therapist, analysis ect. The more money ,the better the personnel.
Money is still an issue for Limerick. The McManus brothers split the costs of running the hurling. JP runs the seniors and his brother runs the academy. And this runs into millions and millions and still the County board struggles to get cash to renovate stuff and get the Rathkeale centre up and running. The other advantage is facilities. They use UL as do Clare. It's got the best sports facilities in Ireland and that includes UCD. All weather floodlit pitches in probably the most sheltered area in the county..and then theres the gym facilities...other world type stuff. Theres single machines there that cost 6 figures. Now the man has to push or pull the weight but all put together the excuses for not performing suddenly disappear and kids from under 14 are soaking all this in. As fit as Tipp are they arent as conditioned as Limerick..I'd use the example of Pauric Maher. Big Biceps and good core strength but compare him to Dan Morrissey..the body fat ect..Dan would be on another level.
But Cork are going to click into gear at some stage and when they do we will all be left in their dust. They ll get the cash. Theyve more gaa players than anyone. The amount of underage squads they have is amazing. When they start winning it will be almost impossible to catch them. I have no doubt about that.

Body fat my arse. Paudie Maher has more hurling in his baby toe than Dan Morrissey.

Dan had a great year last year, but was ropey at times this year, a long way to go to match Paudie Maher.

, Shane Dowling would have twice as much bodyfat than Luke Meade who starts for Cork but he would score more in 20 minutes than Meade would in 3 games for Cork:

Realt Dearg Sec

Kudos for "body fat my arse".

BloodyBill

Alonzo Moseley wrote: »

Ok, no harm done, we will re-set.
Some good points (especially on lifespan of big donors/sponsors) and yes Galway would not appear if they will be spending big for a while.

Ultimately I think the solution may well be a cap (a generous one and flexible to allow it be extended if you reach latter stages) but allowing a situation to develop where a county competing in the same competition to have maybe a ten fold advantage in financial muscle is inviting trouble on gross disparity and frequency of lob sided non contests (the Munster championship this year had a worrying number of hopelessly one sided matches)
As mentioned earlier, even greed run American sports recognise that sort of template is only going to erode interest in your sport and try to ensure less fashionable franchise cities can still compete via drafts and caps.

I will revert later in week hopefully with a better effort

In meantime, anyone got the equivalent of the 2017 Irish independent county spend analysis for 2018?
I haven't URL privileges yet ,so cannot post the 2017 link.


Incredible to see Roscommon (knocked out in qualifiers by Clare) spent twice as much in 2016 than Kilkenny did despite Kilkenny going to AI final.
Crazy, and also shows you cannot buy success (just in case anyone still thinks this is my core point)But it does show how lousy such resources available to Roscommon are on near rivals like Sligo and Leitrim operating on a fraction of this

But a totally 'one sided' Championship match in Munster is still attracting double the crowd of a competitive Leinster Championship game. That's a serious worry for the Leinster council.

Field east

Alonzo Moseley wrote: »

I most certainly did not say or remotely infer that three semi finalists were properly resourced while Kilkenny were not

This is specifically why I have been cautious about joining up here rather than using it to just catch up on valuable local info that isn't freely available.


If you want to contribute to a topic on the increasing influence of increased spending on inter county team and its correlation with silverware, I will happily engage.
If you want to imagine I have some chip on my shoulder that poor old Kilkenny haven't a pot to piss in, and its all so terribly unfair on us, you will be talking to the wall

Kilkenny under Cody and Quinn have had a terrific set up and players were always treated well.
But the ante is being upped now in a serious way by a small number of counties and the fact the the two best resourced have won these last two years is not a coincidence
They might have won without the extra resources, they have the talent, but they left nothing to chance

In another example of how Tipp upped the ante this year, Shane Mc Cormack, one of Ireland's top sprint experts was added to the Tipp backroom team as a dedicated sprint coach and the whole squad did one dedicated sprint session per week with him!

This is serious high level performance and attention to detail, but it is a level that very few counties can afford

I wonder are we all being unintentionally side tracked here by equating money and success aka especially the last three all ireland winners.

Kilkenny have been the dominant team over the last 10 odd years. So much so, the nation thought that it would go on for another 10 if some county it’s did not step up to the plate re having their drive , fitness, aggressiveness, tactics , understanding of the rules and how far they can be stretched and especially in relation to analyzing the refs and their interpretation of the rules, decipline, honesty, etc, etc, etc. etc, etc, etc, etc. as a ‘ matter of fact’ the general consensus was that Kil could beat any team with 14 players

Are we now saying that a very substantial amount of the ‘DNA ‘ / know how built up over the years have been lost/ forgotten about? Would the Kil management not have largely internalized any outside expertise . Because of the built up of know how , re how to win, it might need a small input - so small money required-from outside to review/ refresh/ update that know how.
What I am saying is that Kilkenny would not need near as much finance as a team starting off to try and catch up to Kil intensity , match it in all the key areas, and ,hopefullly , complete successfully against them.
It will be of interest to see the size of the back room team in Tipp next year

Mankbag

BloodyBill wrote: »

But a totally 'one sided' Championship match in Munster is still attracting double the crowd of a competitive Leinster Championship game. That's a serious worry for the Leinster council.

What absolute nonsense.

The Leinster hurling championship has taken over from the Leinster football championship as the main source of gate income from the Leinster Council. Parnell Park had full houses for Wexford and Galway. Nowlan Park had a huge crowd for Galway. Wexford Park was sold out for Kilkenny. The Leinster final had an attendance of 55,000 or so.

The Leinster hurling championship has never been more attractive. Try again.

bruschi

Mankbag wrote: »

What absolute nonsense.

The Leinster hurling championship has taken over from the Leinster football championship as the main source of gate income from the Leinster Council. Parnell Park had full houses for Wexford and Galway. Nowlan Park had a huge crowd for Galway. Wexford Park was sold out for Kilkenny. The Leinster final had an attendance of 55,000 or so.

The Leinster hurling championship has never been more attractive. Try again.

with all due respect, the Munster games get double what Leinster get. Now, the venues in Leinster also arent as big as the Munster venues, but even so, there was no sell out games in the round robin phase. Big crowds yes, but Parnell and Wexford Park werent sold out during that phase. It's not a bad thing, but Munster attracts more viewers. RTE cherry picked games to show more Munster than Leinster. It has a better "brand" associated with it. I think it's completely over rated, but it has a big draw to it.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/provincial-hurling-championship-attendance-figures-up-1.3928692

Hurling round robin attendances 2019
Total
2019: 329,542

Munster SHC
Total: 237,156
Average: 23,716

Leinster SHC
Total: 92,386
Average: 9,239

Those figures dont include the finals, which had attendances of 51,482 (KK v WX) and 44,052 (Lim v Tipp)

Secondly, the point on "taking over from football" is also very much incorrect. The cumulative total for 3 Dublin games had an attendance of 92,533. That is 51k short of the total hurling attendance. There was another 7 games to take into account for attendance. It was easy enough find the other figures above, but I'm sure the cumulative total for the remaining 7 games would at least get close to the 51k to match the hurling figures, despite the hurling having 11 games and the football having 10 games in total, so not really the main source of gate income. They are probably much the same.

Leinster hurling, IMO, is as good if not better than the Munster, but doesn't have the history or the reputation of the Munster championship. That will still count for a lot.

dastardly00

BloodyBill wrote: »

Haha..that's hilarious. They still have to be able to pull off the look though.. Lee Chin wears a size 'S' and is actually sewn into it by Davy personally beforehand in the physio room before the game..Davy tends to let the hands wander I hear aswell..Tipp wear a size 'M' but with a specially designed baggy torso below the chest to cover the belly.

Regarding the bit in bold... WTF??

BloodyBill

Mankbag wrote: »

What absolute nonsense.

The Leinster hurling championship has taken over from the Leinster football championship as the main source of gate income from the Leinster Council. Parnell Park had full houses for Wexford and Galway. Nowlan Park had a huge crowd for Galway. Wexford Park was sold out for Kilkenny. The Leinster final had an attendance of 55,000 or so.

The Leinster hurling championship has never been more attractive. Try again.

Do you actually know the figures? 237,000 attended Munster round Robin games ,up 10%. 92,386 attended the Leinster round Robin a 14,000 drop. Parnell park has a capacity of about 13,000 so to sell that out wouldn't be amazing. Wexford park is 25,000 and it wasnt sold out for the Kilkenny game.

blackwave

I see Michael fennelly has been announced as the new senior Offaly manager. I wish him all the best and hope it works out for him!

sportsmaddad

On the topic of county team resources etc:

Could anyone make a stab at a list of the supposed 27 members of the Tipp backroom team?
And their roles?
(or is this info online somewhere?)

A couple have been mentioned here, but it'd be interesting to see the full list and compare with KK, and other counties.

And on the subject of funding, I'd take some of those published County Board spending reports with a grain of salt. Especially in those counties with a 'Sugar Daddy' type sponsor. I bet they're funding a lot of these professionals directly.

holyhead

How on earth does a county fund a backroom staff of 27? Isn't it meant to be an amateur sport?

The Lost Sheep

sportsmaddad wrote: »

On the topic of county team resources etc:

Could anyone make a stab at a list of the supposed 27 members of the Tipp backroom team?
And their roles?
(or is this info online somewhere?)

A couple have been mentioned here, but it'd be interesting to see the full list and compare with KK, and other counties.

And on the subject of funding, I'd take some of those published County Board spending reports with a grain of salt. Especially in those counties with a 'Sugar Daddy' type sponsor. I bet they're funding a lot of these professionals directly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipperary_senior_hurling_team_season_2019#2019_senior_hurling_management_team
Is only place i could find apart from a tipperarylive.ie article which is behind paywall.

holyhead wrote: »

How on earth does a county fund a backroom staff of 27? Isn't it meant to be an amateur sport?

Many counties would have same or there abouts if you include the docs, physios, video analysts on top of the coaches for the actual hurling.

Boom__Boom

sportsmaddad wrote: »

On the topic of county team resources etc:

Could anyone make a stab at a list of the supposed 27 members of the Tipp backroom team?
And their roles?
(or is this info online somewhere?)

A couple have been mentioned here, but it'd be interesting to see the full list and compare with KK, and other counties.

And on the subject of funding, I'd take some of those published County Board spending reports with a grain of salt. Especially in those counties with a 'Sugar Daddy' type sponsor. I bet they're funding a lot of these professionals directly.

Senior hurling manager Liam Sheedy has built a terrific 27-man support structure around the Tipperary panel of players. Indeed, an army of experts have catered for the players' every need this season. So, here is a list of the Premier County management team which we dearly hope can help deliver the Liam MacCarthy Cup when Tipp take on Kilkenny in the All-Ireland Senior Hurling Championship final on Sunday, August 18.

2019 Tipperary Senior Hurling Management Team

Manager
Liam Sheedy (Portroe)

Coach-Selectors
Tommy Dunne (Toomevara)
Darragh Egan (Kiladangan)

Additional Coaches
Eamonn O'Shea (Kilruane MacDonagh's)
Cormac McGrath (Ballinahinch)
Eoin Kelly (Mullinahone)

Goalkeeping Coach
Darren Gleeson (Portroe)

Strength & Conditioning Coaches
Caibre Ó Caireallain (Antrim)
Diarmaid Carr (Golden-Kilfeacle)

Nutritionist
Gary Sweeney (Dublin)

Performance Analysis
Damien Young (Drom & Inch)
Finn Briody (Holycross-Ballycahill)
Seán Flynn (Burgess)
Ray Boyne (Dublin)
Conor Boyne (Dublin)
Darragh Boyne (Dublin)

Logistics Manager
Liam O'Shea (Kilruane MacDonagh's)

Kitmen
Brian Stakelum (Thurles Sarsfields)
John Sheedy (Portroe)

Doctor
Brendan Murphy (Offaly)

Physiotherapist
Paddy O'Brien (Toomevara)

Masseurs
Mick Clohessy (Borris-Ileigh)
Declan Maher (Borris-Ileigh)

Team Liaison Officer
John Smith (Thurles Sarsfields)

This article has the Tipp back-room team.

It's paywalled now

tipperarylive.ie/news/sport/436763/here-is-the-27-man-management-team-which-is-working-to-cater-for-the-tipperary-players-every-need.html?fbclid=IwAR1iPK7YfKu0ZAklpe9pDaxOACtqhHDIH1c978H9PmAE3ySN7SS3MT2u78Q

holyhead

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipperary_senior_hurling_team_season_2019#2019_senior_hurling_management_team
Is only place i could find apart from a tipperarylive.ie article which is behind paywall.
Many counties would have same or there abouts if you include the docs, physios, video analysts on top of the coaches for the actual hurling.

It's not a pop at Tipperary just staggered by the number of backroom people involved.

The Lost Sheep

holyhead wrote: »

It's not a pop at Tipperary just staggered by the number of backroom people involved.

Didnt think you were having a pop.
Is it really that surprising though. Take into account all the physios, docs etc needed and then coaches and then additional people like video/performance staff and the numbers quickly go up

tbiggertycome

Kilkenny back room team from memory
Manager
Brian Cody

Selectors
Derek Lyng
James McGarry

S&C
Michael Dempsey

Doctor
Tadhg Crowley

Physio
Kevin Curran
John Kearns
Neal Byrne
Alison Holmes

Video analysis
2 Monaghan sister that went to Carlow IT

Nutritionist
Noreen Roche

Kitman
Rackard Cody

So a backroom of 13 then unless anyone knows who I'm missing, that's it as far as I'm aware. I know for a fact the first four don't receive a penny other than expenses which are minimal. I assume Doc, Nutritionist and Physio's all being paid. Video analysis girls too. I assume Rackard is employed by the Co Board but I don't know.