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Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 3 **MOD NOTE POST 1***
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babyjesus14 wrote: »Just what we need another smart arse keyboard warrior! Would you just pause for one second and consider how the players are feeling tonight? They have been training since last November play one match lose by 2 points and that's it! And what thanks do they get? Idiots like you calling them "terrible " and "inept " Kilkenny hurlers need "supporters" like you like they need a hole in the head!
I hope they feel bad because I felt bad driving back to Dublin from Tulla more on a school night. The performance was inept, especially by the forwards. There wasn't much to take from it bar the bit of fight they showed near the end but sure anyone can do that.
Very deflated by this result. I was hopeful the forwards would give a display but the complete opposite was the case. There isn't an up and coming forward in the county of any promise.
Ref was terrible too. One of th e worst I've seen in a long, long time.0 -
therealdonster wrote: »I hope they feel bad because I felt bad driving back to Dublin from Tulla more on a school night. The performance was inept, especially by the forwards. There wasn't much to take from it bar the bit of fight they showed near the end but sure anyone can do that.
Very deflated by this result. I was hopeful the forwards would give a display but the complete opposite was the case. There isn't an up and coming forward in the county of any promise.
Ref was terrible too. One of th e worst Ie seen in a long, long time.
So you were hopeful the forwards would give a good display? So I am guessing you had seen them hurl before? And they lost to one of the best teams in the country by two points and they are all inept based on one performance! Yep, that makes complete sense!
Richie Leahy, John Donnelly, Mossy Keoghan, Adrian Mullen, James Bergin, Sean Ryan, Eoin Cody,Ciaran Brennan, Conor Kelly, George Murphy... there's 10 forwards off the top of my head of "promise ".
Poor you drove all the way from Dublin and my team lost so I will go on line anonymously and abuse them. The sense of entitlement from some Kilkenny supporters is astounding, if you can't accept that some days we lose without behaving like a spoilt child i suggest you don't bother going!0 -
While this is an exaggeration i could see at times our fowards getting bottled up while galway had loads of space to run into.Galway were more clinical when they got into scoring positions and we were maybe unlucky not to get another goal.Our tails were up when donnelly hit the post but we were behind nearly all the match and on the balance galway were better.therealdonster wrote: »Terrible display, especially by the forwards. Yet again Bill Sheehan gives another inept, pointless display - I am amazed by the number of chances he has been given without producing anything. A one trick pony and its not even a very good trick to begin with.
The display tonight was like a mirror of the seniors display in the championship so far. I think Galway senior management will be licking their lips at what they saw tonight.
Leahy was the only shining light from the night.
Winter is coming...🀀0 -
babyjesus14 wrote: »So you were hopeful the forwards would give a good display? So I am guessing you had seen them hurl before? And they lost to one of the best teams in the country by two points and they are all inept based on one performance! Yep, that makes complete sense!
Richie Leahy, John Donnelly, Mossy Keoghan, Adrian Mullen, James Bergin, Sean Ryan, Eoin Cody,Ciaran Brennan, Conor Kelly, George Murphy... there's 10 forwards off the top of my head of "promise ".
Poor you drove all the way from Dublin and my team lost so I will go on line anonymously and abuse them. The sense of entitlement from some Kilkenny supporters is astounding, if you can't accept that some days we lose without behaving like a spoilt child i suggest you don't bother going!
Ten years since we won U21 all Ireland I think people are entitled to there opinion but it seems from calling people idiots, spoilt children, etc, you are doing a lot of talking yourself. Cody is a great man I don't know what we are going to do if anything happens to him at the moment he is still able to reach the top . The under age structure was let go to the dogs in kilkenny hopefully we will get back on tracks the minors look good a good backroom team the best of luck to them. As regards M Keoghan playing in a colleges match in the backs was errellavant to last night as you said they were training since last November if they couldn't get a centre back sorted out in that period who am I to make a comment.0 -
WOW.....
The amateur analysts are out in force. So easy analyse and criticise AFTER the game, There wasnt much talk and predictions before the game from the "players are crap" brigade .
Its easy (set up an account and ) come on here and criticise players and management when its over. Have a bit of cop on will yee.
"Bright lights and Thunder .................... " #NoPopcorn
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Pat Treacy wrote: »Ten years since we won U21 all Ireland I think people are entitled to there opinion but it seems from calling people idiots, spoilt children, etc, you are doing a lot of talking yourself. Cody is a great man I don't know what we are going to do if anything happens to him at the moment he is still able to reach the top . The under age structure was let go to the dogs in kilkenny hopefully we will get back on tracks the minors look good a good backroom team the best of luck to them. As regards M Keoghan playing in a colleges match in the backs was errellavant to last night as you said they were training since last November if they couldn't get a centre back sorted out in that period who am I to make a comment.
I am all for constructive criticism and measured discussions but when keyboard warriors resort to personal abuse of players i will continue to call them out and defend players!
I am assuming you have first hand knowledge of the underage development structures "that has gone to the dogs"? I would be very interested to hear your thoughts and where they have gone wrong and could improve. I have a close relative involved for the last 3 years so would be interested in what you have to say on it.
As regards Mossy Keoghan playing centre back last night, all i was doing was pointing out the error of your claim that " he never played there in his life " which is not the case. You have to remember we were missing three defenders last night Darren Mullen, Conor Dohney and Aidan Nolan that's even without mentioning Darragh Joyce who have was the minor centre back three years ago. So there hand was forced a little and it was a gamble that didn't work. I don't remember reading many posters questioning the decision before the match. We are all wise after the event, in racing this is known as aftertiming!0 -
greenspurs wrote: »WOW.....
The amateur analysts are out in force. So easy analyse and criticise AFTER the game, There wasnt much talk and predictions before the game from the "players are crap" brigade .
Its easy (set up an account and ) come on here and criticise players and management when its over. Have a bit of cop on will yee.
Yep, i think there's a lot of people on here upset because they're judgement was flawed. Rather than admitting they got it wrong they blame the players,management, referee.... anyone but their own poor judgement!0 -
therealdonster wrote: »I hope they feel bad because I felt bad driving back to Dublin from Tulla more on a school night. The performance was inept, especially by the forwards. There wasn't much to take from it bar the bit of fight they showed near the end but sure anyone can do that.
Very deflated by this result. I was hopeful the forwards would give a display but the complete opposite was the case. There isn't an up and coming forward in the county of any promise.
Ref was terrible too. One of th e worst I've seen in a long, long time.
Well in fairness, you shouldn't have been left out if you had school this morning.0 -
Martin Keoghan, Ryan Bergin, Bill Sheehan, and Delaney were poor last night. Keoghan was all over the place center back, cleaned out in the air and the ground gave away 2 goals and gave a stupid short pass to Delaney which led to the first goal, very poor showing from a senior player.
Ryan Bergin looked slow and not fit, wont see much of him again im afraid. Delaney midfield offered very little, no pace no physicality. Bill Sheehan lacks hurling and is not a natural finisher, that chance before ht should have been finished and was a crucial turning point.
Leahy does silly things but is a class act as is John Donnelly. Shane Murphy was poor wing back very poor clearance and got turned over too many times. Tom Kenny so/so. Conor Hennessy fair athlete needed things to open up for him but needed a bigger return. Mullen will be class in time if he puts in the work0 -
Martin Keoghan, Ryan Bergin, Bill Sheehan, and Delaney were poor last night. Keoghan was all over the place center back, cleaned out in the air and the ground gave away 2 goals and gave a stupid short pass to Delaney which led to the first goal, very poor showing from a senior player.
Ryan Bergin looked slow and not fit, wont see much of him again im afraid. Delaney midfield offered very little, no pace no physicality. Bill Sheehan lacks hurling and is not a natural finisher, that chance before ht should have been finished and was a crucial turning point.
Leahy does silly things but is a class act as is John Donnelly. Shane Murphy was poor wing back very poor clearance and got turned over too many times. Tom Kenny so/so. Conor Hennessy fair athlete needed things to open up for him but needed a bigger return. Mullen will be class in time if he puts in the work
Quite a critique from a man who a week ago predicted "we had nothing to worry about " and we would "rip them apart "!😉0 -
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People are just expressing a different opinion other than everything is grand, head in the sand brigade. I suspected you must have had a relation involved, I thought maybe a player. If these players want to wear that jersey then they have to be man enough to accept a bit of criticism. Most of them have achieved very little to date in the black and Amber so I think they are fair game.
We are facing into a bleak few years with very few outstanding players coming through. Just because someone happens to be in possession of a Kilkenny underage jersey at a particular moment in time doesent mean they are going to make it - it's all relative to what's going on in other counties and we are being left behind.
Of the main hurling counties we have by far the smallest population so measures need to be taken to ensure we maximise what we have. A bit of imagination may be required.0 -
therealdonster wrote: »People are just expressing a different opinion other than everything is grand, head in the sand brigade. I suspected you must have had a relation involved, I thought maybe a player. If these players want to wear that jersey then they have to be man enough to accept a bit of criticism. Most of them have achieved very little to date in the black and Amber so I think they are fair game.
We are facing into a bleak few years with very few outstanding players coming through. Just because someone happens to be in possession of a Kilkenny underage jersey at a particular moment in time doesent mean they are going to make it - it's all relative to what's going on in other counties and we are being left behind.
Of the main hurling counties we have by far the smallest population so measures need to be taken to ensure we maximise what we have. A bit of imagination may be required.
I assuming this is a reply to me. Nope, no personal involvement last night just the emotional investment of being a Kilkenny supporter for over 40years. Absolutely i have no problem with constructive criticism and reasoned discussion it's the anonymous personal abuse of players that gets on my nerves.
Did you stand up in O'Connor Park last night and say what you said on here later about Bill Sheehan? Very brave hiding behind a username.0 -
therealdonster wrote: »People are just expressing a different opinion other than everything is grand, head in the sand brigade. I suspected you must have had a relation involved, I thought maybe a player. If these players want to wear that jersey then they have to be man enough to accept a bit of criticism. Most of them have achieved very little to date in the black and Amber so I think they are fair game.
We are facing into a bleak few years with very few outstanding players coming through. Just because someone happens to be in possession of a Kilkenny underage jersey at a particular moment in time doesent mean they are going to make it - it's all relative to what's going on in other counties and we are being left behind.
Of the main hurling counties we have by far the smallest population so measures need to be taken to ensure we maximise what we have. A bit of imagination may be required.
that would actually be hilarious if you werent serious.
You think U21s are fair game for pretty severe and harsh online criticism (not constructive either) from anonymous postings because they havent achieved much (by your own lofty expectations) in their underage hurling.0 -
babyjesus14 wrote: »therealdonster wrote: »People are just expressing a different opinion other than everything is grand, head in the sand brigade. I suspected you must have had a relation involved, I thought maybe a player. If these players want to wear that jersey then they have to be man enough to accept a bit of criticism. Most of them have achieved very little to date in the black and Amber so I think they are fair game.
We are facing into a bleak few years with very few outstanding players coming through. Just because someone happens to be in possession of a Kilkenny underage jersey at a particular moment in time doesent mean they are going to make it - it's all relative to what's going on in other counties and we are being left behind.
Of the main hurling counties we have by far the smallest population so measures need to be taken to ensure we maximise what we have. A bit of imagination may be required.
I assuming this is a reply to me. Nope, no personal involvement last night just the emotional investment of being a Kilkenny supporter for over 40years. Absolutely i have no problem with constructive criticism and reasoned discussion it's the anonymous personal abuse of players that gets on my nerves.
Did you stand up in O'Connor Park last night and say what you said on here later about Bill Sheehan? Very brave hiding behind a username.
Bill Sheehan has a lot to prove. It's hard to see what Cody sees in him considering his insistence on forwards that can win their own ball. It may sound harsh but it is an opinion.
To be fair it probably is a good approach to take with a forward - give him a number of games to prove his worth rather than expecting things to start happening straight away. I've personally seen enough at this stage though.
Were John Walsh for example & numerous others down through the years shown such patience? Perhaps if they had of been we wouldn't find ourselves facing the situation we are currently in. Hard to see us putting it up to Galway if 4 of that team are contenders for starting the LF.0 -
therealdonster wrote: »Bill Sheehan has a lot to prove. It's hard to see what Cody sees in him considering his insistence on forwards that can win their own ball. It may sound harsh but it is an opinion.
To be fair it probably is a good approach to take with a forward - give him a number of games to prove his worth rather than expecting things to start happening straight away. I've personally seen enough at this stage though.
Were John Walsh for example & numerous others down through the years shown such patience? Perhaps if they had of been we wouldn't find ourselves facing the situation we are currently in. Hard to see us putting it up to Galway if 4 of that team are contenders for starting the LF.
Agree with you about Bill Sheehan, his main problem is his physique and unless/until he fills out he is going to struggle at inter county level. He also appears to have little confidence in his ability to strike off his left on the run which can result in him carrying the ball into traffic.But he certainly isn't "terrible " or "inept "
Unfortunately John Walsh has the same issue but he's only 22 and if he was to fill out he could yet be a contender.
Don't see us beating Galway in the Senior Leinster final but would hope to see us being competitive and getting closer to them than we did in Salthill with a view to giving us something to build on for the rest of the season.0 -
therealdonster wrote: »Terrible display, especially by the forwards. Yet again Bill Sheehan gives another inept, pointless display - I am amazed by the number of chances he has been given without producing anything. A one trick pony and its not even a very good trick to begin with.
The display tonight was like a mirror of the seniors display in the championship so far. I think Galway senior management will be licking their lips at what they saw tonight.
Leahy was the only shining light from the night.
Winter is coming...🀀
Calling a young lad a one trick pony? I'd love to see what crap you'd come up with if you really decided to have a go.0 -
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bill has huge work rate thats the reason id say bolger and walsh were dropped.Cork had a star studded side last night and only barely got over a waterford side who weren't expected to do much.We all expected more last night with the 4 senior lads and by all accounts a good management team and unfortunately we drove some early wides and took a long time to settle but the ten mins after time the 2 goals finished us,well finished could of being prevented.
I know leahy drove a few bad wides but he really took the fight to galway in the 2nd half his best position is mf.
unfortunately thats it at u21 for another year I wonder will the management stay on we have last years minor team which was decent and this years 17 team which is good hopefully we'll be back competing again.0 -
babyjesus14 wrote: »Quite a critique from a man who a week ago predicted "we had nothing to worry about " and we would "rip them apart "!��
Kilkenny should have won last night, Bill Sheehan missed 2 goals, John Donnelly hit the post, Adrian Mullen unlucky for another. Delaney mistake and Keoghan mistakes led to 3 Galway goals. Galway took there chances and its an average Galway team IMO.0 -
babyjesus14 wrote: »Think you got the wrong poster, dude. Never called anyone "a one trick pony "!
My apols. Quoted the wrong post.0 -
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Kilkenny should have won last night, Bill Sheehan missed 2 goals, John Donnelly hit the post, Adrian Mullen unlucky for another. Delaney mistake and Keoghan mistakes led to 3 Galway goals. Galway took there chances and its an average Galway team IMO.
We could have won but Galway missed their chances too. Haven't seen the stats on the game so don't know what the wide count was but would guess they hit slightly more than us.
The majority of the doom mongers around here seem to think we were well "bet" and the final scored "flattered " us which i don't agree with. Thought Galway were the better team because they took their goal chances and we didn't, surely a sign of a team who is better than "average ", no?
It's amazing the amount of people who are incapable of admitting they got something badly wrong and perhaps there knowledge is not all that they think it to be!!0 -
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I don't think it's doom and gloom with the seniors just because of last nights performance. I don't expect sheenan and keoghan to start in LF. Donnolly got 1-2 last night and unlucky not to get another goal, wasn't at his best but was still a threat. Leahy got 0-3 and 2 great points and really drove us forward. No doubt Cody will use this to drive those young lads on even more before the final.0
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Disappointed that Under-21s did not win. On the night the better team won, but only just. Firstly, I agree 100% with the poster who pointed out that there was not one single post which gave a negative vibe about the team selection beforehand. That includes from me.
Secondly, we lost by 2 points and although I would not blame the officials for our defeat, it is worth mentioning. Bill Sheehan was struck at least twice on the elbow going in just before half time. He put the ball wide. The referee clearly felt it merited a yellow card for the culprit. Why no free? Incredibly poor decision! We could safely assume the free would have been converted and possibly the last point Galway got would not have happened either. It would have been level at half time. Tommy Walsh’s late strike, (although in my opinion, a bad decision to even try), it did go over the bar. How do I know? Watch what the Galway goalie does with his hurley as he puts it up to indicate it went over the bar as all modern goalies do when the ball is going over the bar. That gives a possible 2-3 swing. But look at the end of the day Galway scored more and won on the official scoreboard. Hopefully future decisions will go our way.
This was always going to be a big ask. Galway had a competitive game under their belt. Galway are a good team will lots of medals already. Kilkenny had five of their starting team playing with the team for the first time last week. The four seniors did noticeably play a subtly different game to the rest of the lads. There were times when communication and interaction with the others wasn’t as sharp as it should be. In hindsight playing Martin Keoghan at centre back was a mistake. Hindsight is great. Not because he played poor but because the team never played anything with the player who was going to play in the most pivotal position. It looked like he didn’t know what the lads around him were to do and vice-versa. If only we had got Offaly first and had a chance to learn that.
People have mentioned Sean Carey’s free. In the context of the moment, that was the right thing to do. This is a lad who has the same confidence as his father. Something special was needed. (We hadn’t got the Donnelly goal yet). He had a go. Unfortunately it didn’t come off and again hindsight is great to make a different decision and tap it over. Small margins at this level, but huge criticism is not due.
When Galway were on top in the first half it was our half forward line that was cleaned out. Ball went up, ball came back during Galway’s purple patch. There are different views on Adrian Mullen who was the fifth player to only join the panel. My personal view is that he is a very good stick man. However, he has a very long way to go. His workrate when he hasn’t the ball is not enough. This has always been his problem. When you are younger and such a good stick man, you can get away with it. Workrate has always being Brian Cody’s mantra that has won so many All-Irelands hence Bill Sheehan ahead of Adrian Mullen. Cody is not going to change that recipe. Why would he? I know I wouldn’t.
Ryan Bergin struggled on Evan Niland. Michael Carey might have been a better option from the word go. Niland did not do as much in the second half. Eddie Delaney’s club form was evident too. The perfect score in Feile skills does not make you the best inter county option anymore. Tommy Walsh. I wouldn’t make excuses about his fitness. It’s just another example of the county either through club or squads not being able to produce a top class full back. How many of them are around?
The lack of goals and goal creation is an issue at all levels. Again this goes back to what the clubs are doing. Very few clubs score 3 or more goals in club championship games anymore. With tighter defences, clubs need to get more imaginative. How many clubs are coaching to get goals? The mantra of take your point and the goals will come is disappearing. Kilkenny got 18 scores, Galway got 16, Galway won.
Having watched the Cork-Waterford U21 match as well. The Munster game was so much more open and I know some posters have mentioned this in the past, but it is so much harder to get a score against a Leinster team (including Galway now). This makes Leinster matches look dour and Munster matches look exciting. The Munster lads believe this and to be honest they are probably correct. However, the Munster lads have yet to figure out that exciting doesn’t always win matches against Leinster teams. Hence since 2000, twice as many senior All-Irelands have been won by Leinster teams than Munster. I am convinced had Kilkenny being playing Cork or Waterford last night, Kilkenny would have won as it would have suited our hurling style especially the new running game.
Overall it was a disappointing end to our last ever inter county under-21 hurling match. I still think we can beat Galway in the Leinster Final. I liked some of the things we did, especially the fact that they kept going even when the game looked really gone. That’s what a Kilkenny team is about. The opposition can never be comfortable. There are lads and lasses who post here who enjoy being miserable. They love being wholly negative. Sure what harm, some of us will enjoy the game and the sport win, lose or draw.0 -
brookville wrote: »bill has huge work rate thats the reason id say bolger and walsh were dropped.Cork had a star studded side last night and only barely got over a waterford side who weren't expected to do much.We all expected more last night with the 4 senior lads and by all accounts a good management team and unfortunately we drove some early wides and took a long time to settle but the ten mins after time the 2 goals finished us,well finished could of being prevented.
I know leahy drove a few bad wides but he really took the fight to galway in the 2nd half his best position is mf.
unfortunately thats it at u21 for another year I wonder will the management stay on we have last years minor team which was decent and this years 17 team which is good hopefully we'll be back competing again.
I'd be very surprised if they got rid of the management again so quickly, U21 is a hard grade to make judgements on, one bad day and it's over for a year. Given DJ's track record with Carlow and the esteem in which he's held by the players you would have to give him another crack at it IMO. I'm living a long way from home but it seems to me like there's more to the problem at u21 that won't be solved by just changing the manager.
Incidentally babyjesus I get why you're upset about personal abuse, but in your first post after this match you quoted me as the example you were going after of over-reactions to the result. I'd point out that I didn't engage in any personal abuse of anyone.
As to the quote itself, "falling off a cliff" I would stand by it. You note that we are two points behind Galway yesterday and this reflects results with the same lads at minor. I would say that just looking at the final result is a very flattering way of analysing the performance last night. It's very clear the team has regressed significantly, we were miles off the pace and losing by nine points would probably have been closer to a fair reflection of the gap between the teams last night. I don't think there's any need to even mention particular players, since the whole full forward line (when there was a whole full forward line) were being roasted all day, none of the forwards seemed able to win primary possession. There was a lack of any kind of sense to the ball they were getting from the backs either, but that was in part because the backs were under enormous pressure all day. Galway looked more organised, were definitely more physical. And while I appreciated the fight that our lads showed at the end of the match, there was a distinct lack of aggression to their play for most of the match.
I don't know if it's even a matter of regression, they just looked like a minor team playing against a senior team. The reason people are probably worked up about the whole thing is that, on paper, this really did look like a very promising year. i don't agree with people who are dismissing the abilities of all of these guys, Bill Sheehan is just a bit too small at the moment, for example (as you rightly pointed out). The performance was just a bit toothless.
I don't think it will have anything to do with the senior Leinster Final though. We're going to give that a right rattle, I haven't a doubt in my mind about it.0 -
"People have mentioned Sean Carey’s free. In the context of the moment, that was the right thing to do. This is a lad who has the same confidence as his father. Something special was needed. (We hadn’t got the Donnelly goal yet). He had a go. Unfortunately it didn’t come off and again hindsight is great to make a different decision and tap it over. Small margins at this level, but huge criticism is not due."
I agree with the majority of your post except for this bit. These type of goals just aren't scored anymore since the ban on crossing the 21 came in unless someone really messes up on the line. Whatever about straight in front of the goal, scoring from an angle is next to impossible. There was 3 minutes left in normal time and there was always going to be at least 2 in injury time. Knock over the simple score and get it back to 4 and concentrate on winning the puck out. I don't know whose call it was but it was wrong. In my opinion obviously.0 -
I definitely think we could and probably should have won the game. We had two good goal chances in the first half with Mullen and Sheehan, we had two more in the second half Donnelly and Sheehan plus Donnellys actual goal. There were also missed points or chances, we should have got a free at the end of the first half, after the ref booked the defender for fouling Sheehan, Tommy Walshs point at the end also looked over on TV when they showed the replay. Carey could have went for a point near the end but personally I thought at the time the goal was the right call. Unfortunately our defence let us down when it really mattered and we were just a bit soft at the back especially compared to the Galway backs who horsed into our boys all day. My biggest concern is that we're not producing backs with a bit of bite and an uncompromising attitude. We have lots of nice backs who are nice hurlers but few seem to be of the Jackie or Noel Hickey mould, were they really get stuck into a lad without crossing the line (although neither of them were shy about crossing the line either). As a friend of mine calls it we need a few "treacherous b*****ds". We need backs that other teams love to hate. Conor Doheny in particular and Aidan Nolan and Darren Mullen would have gone a long way to help strengthening that defense, however the two Boro boys choose not to not be involved and thats their right and they didn't want to commit this year to the U21's and I feel we have the new system/lack of club games to thank for that.
The slating of lads is over the top on here. Lads can have a bad game, they can have a run of bad games, that doesn't mean their not good enough or never will be. I'm only going to talk about Bill Sheehan because I've seen more of him than anyone else here(unless his parents or siblings are on here). For the past few years I have been doing video analysis for the Boro. I've watched hours and hours of Bill playing both live and on screen. When Bill is used correctly he's very effective. He's also an incredibly hard worker and completely unselfish. Many have pointed his lack of physique and that's true at the moment but there's a few reasons for that. Bill is and likely never will be that tall. As far as I know Bill was not involved in other underage Kilkenny teams and is playing catch up in the strength and conditioning stakes. I think it will take him a year or two in the strength and conditioning program to get to the desired level. However there's a reason Cody has picked him from obscurity to being a sub/occasional starter and that's what he's seen in training. How many lads from all over the county were called in but cut subsequently, yet a lad who we can all see is not strong enough yet has not only being kept but is also getting game time. I've talked to 2 current players this year about him and they say he's been really good and causing defenders lots of trouble in training. If Bill is that bad why do they keep picking him? Admittedly he hasn't translated that to match day yet. He may not get too many more chances this year if any but to write him off and say he won't make it is foolish. Those who write him off are wrong to do so in my opinion, I think he'll prove people wrong but it may not be this year. The other thing to remember about all these players is there age. Bill is only turning 20 this year as far as I know.
To be honest I think that match was an AI semi final as there is very little in Galways path to an All Ireland.0 -
Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »I'd be very surprised if they got rid of the management again so quickly, U21 is a hard grade to make judgements on, one bad day and it's over for a year. Given DJ's track record with Carlow and the esteem in which he's held by the players you would have to give him another crack at it IMO. I'm living a long way from home but it seems to me like there's more to the problem at u21 that won't be solved by just changing the manager.
Incidentally babyjesus I get why you're upset about personal abuse, but in your first post after this match you quoted me as the example you were going after of over-reactions to the result. I'd point out that I didn't engage in any personal abuse of anyone.
As to the quote itself, "falling off a cliff" I would stand by it. You note that we are two points behind Galway yesterday and this reflects results with the same lads at minor. I would say that just looking at the final result is a very flattering way of analysing the performance last night. It's very clear the team has regressed significantly, we were miles off the pace and losing by nine points would probably have been closer to a fair reflection of the gap between the teams last night. I don't think there's any need to even mention particular players, since the whole full forward line (when there was a whole full forward line) were being roasted all day, none of the forwards seemed able to win primary possession. There was a lack of any kind of sense to the ball they were getting from the backs either, but that was in part because the backs were under enormous pressure all day. Galway looked more organised, were definitely more physical. And while I appreciated the fight that our lads showed at the end of the match, there was a distinct lack of aggression to their play for most of the match.
I don't know if it's even a matter of regression, they just looked like a minor team playing against a senior team. The reason people are probably worked up about the whole thing is that, on paper, this really did look like a very promising year. i don't agree with people who are dismissing the abilities of all of these guys, Bill Sheehan is just a bit too small at the moment, for example (as you rightly pointed out). The performance was just a bit toothless.
I don't think it will have anything to do with the senior Leinster Final though. We're going to give that a right rattle, I haven't a doubt in my mind about it.
I used your phrase as an example of what i feel is an overreaction to last night. And I know you don't resort to personal abuse and you are definitely one of the fairest most reasoned posters.
But i completely disagree with you that the result flattered us. I felt the first half was very even and we put ourselves in a good position at half time. Then we had a very poor 15 minutes at the start of the second when the game got away from us but battled back well but ran out of time.
I am sure if the management had a second chance they probably would do a few things differently. But unfortunately that's the under 21 championship one slip up and your season is over.
You would have to feel for this group of lads, they were the victim of poor officiating three years ago at Minor and again last night with the Bill Sheehan incident at the end of the first and Tommy Walsh's "point " at the end!!0 -
babyjesus14 wrote: »I used your phrase as an example of what i feel is an overreaction to last night. And I know you don't resort to personal abuse and you are definitely one of the fairest most reasoned posters.
But i completely disagree with you that the result flattered us. I felt the first half was very even and we put ourselves in a good position at half time. Then we had a very poor 15 minutes at the start of the second when the game got away from us but battled back well but ran out of time.
I am sure if the management had a second chance they probably would do a few things differently. But unfortunately that's the under 21 championship one slip up and your season is over.
You would have to feel for this group of lads, they were the victim of poor officiating three years ago at Minor and again last night with the Bill Sheehan incident at the end of the first and Tommy Walsh's "point " at the end!!
You're probably right, and there's probably a lot of frustration at the way things have gone in this grade in recent history. I'm not by any means writing off the players on that team either, Donnelly and Leahy were good last night and I don't see how anyone would judge Keoghan on his performance in a position he is almost definitely never going to play senior inter-county. I haven't watched Mullen play much, so I won't comment, and as I said I think Sheehan will come good in time.
Anyway my instinct is towards optimism. I think DJ will make a good go of management in the longer run, his run with Carlow tells us that firing him now would be a bad, knee jerk reaction. If Eddie Brennan got a second go you couldn't fire DJ anyway!0 -
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Disappointed that Under-21s did not win. On the night the better team won, but only just. Firstly, I agree 100% with the poster who pointed out that there was not one single post which gave a negative vibe about the team selection beforehand. That includes from me.
Secondly, we lost by 2 points and although I would not blame the officials for our defeat, it is worth mentioning. Bill Sheehan was struck at least twice on the elbow going in just before half time. He put the ball wide. The referee clearly felt it merited a yellow card for the culprit. Why no free? Incredibly poor decision! We could safely assume the free would have been converted and possibly the last point Galway got would not have happened either. It would have been level at half time. Tommy Walsh’s late strike, (although in my opinion, a bad decision to even try), it did go over the bar. How do I know? Watch what the Galway goalie does with his hurley as he puts it up to indicate it went over the bar as all modern goalies do when the ball is going over the bar. That gives a possible 2-3 swing. But look at the end of the day Galway scored more and won on the official scoreboard. Hopefully future decisions will go our way.
This was always going to be a big ask. Galway had a competitive game under their belt. Galway are a good team will lots of medals already. Kilkenny had five of their starting team playing with the team for the first time last week. The four seniors did noticeably play a subtly different game to the rest of the lads. There were times when communication and interaction with the others wasn’t as sharp as it should be. In hindsight playing Martin Keoghan at centre back was a mistake. Hindsight is great. Not because he played poor but because the team never played anything with the player who was going to play in the most pivotal position. It looked like he didn’t know what the lads around him were to do and vice-versa. If only we had got Offaly first and had a chance to learn that.
People have mentioned Sean Carey’s free. In the context of the moment, that was the right thing to do. This is a lad who has the same confidence as his father. Something special was needed. (We hadn’t got the Donnelly goal yet). He had a go. Unfortunately it didn’t come off and again hindsight is great to make a different decision and tap it over. Small margins at this level, but huge criticism is not due.
When Galway were on top in the first half it was our half forward line that was cleaned out. Ball went up, ball came back during Galway’s purple patch. There are different views on Adrian Mullen who was the fifth player to only join the panel. My personal view is that he is a very good stick man. However, he has a very long way to go. His workrate when he hasn’t the ball is not enough. This has always been his problem. When you are younger and such a good stick man, you can get away with it. Workrate has always being Brian Cody’s mantra that has won so many All-Irelands hence Bill Sheehan ahead of Adrian Mullen. Cody is not going to change that recipe. Why would he? I know I wouldn’t.
Ryan Bergin struggled on Evan Niland. Michael Carey might have been a better option from the word go. Niland did not do as much in the second half. Eddie Delaney’s club form was evident too. The perfect score in Feile skills does not make you the best inter county option anymore. Tommy Walsh. I wouldn’t make excuses about his fitness. It’s just another example of the county either through club or squads not being able to produce a top class full back. How many of them are around?
The lack of goals and goal creation is an issue at all levels. Again this goes back to what the clubs are doing. Very few clubs score 3 or more goals in club championship games anymore. With tighter defences, clubs need to get more imaginative. How many clubs are coaching to get goals? The mantra of take your point and the goals will come is disappearing. Kilkenny got 18 scores, Galway got 16, Galway won.
Having watched the Cork-Waterford U21 match as well. The Munster game was so much more open and I know some posters have mentioned this in the past, but it is so much harder to get a score against a Leinster team (including Galway now). This makes Leinster matches look dour and Munster matches look exciting. The Munster lads believe this and to be honest they are probably correct. However, the Munster lads have yet to figure out that exciting doesn’t always win matches against Leinster teams. Hence since 2000, twice as many senior All-Irelands have been won by Leinster teams than Munster. I am convinced had Kilkenny being playing Cork or Waterford last night, Kilkenny would have won as it would have suited our hurling style especially the new running game.
Overall it was a disappointing end to our last ever inter county under-21 hurling match. I still think we can beat Galway in the Leinster Final. I liked some of the things we did, especially the fact that they kept going even when the game looked really gone. That’s what a Kilkenny team is about. The opposition can never be comfortable. There are lads and lasses who post here who enjoy being miserable. They love being wholly negative. Sure what harm, some of us will enjoy the game and the sport win, lose or draw.
I agree with you as regards Bill Sheehan being struck severely twice on the elbow, and as the referee let the game continue and Bill kicked the ball wide. The referee, after consultation with the umpires, then gave a yellow card to the Galway culprit, but still did not award a free in - what is the story there, can anyone offer an explanation?
I don't know if it is just me, but a clear throwing of the ball by players has crept in as a particular method of delivering the ball more accurately. I see this with most other teams, but in general, Kilkenny do not do it much. The referees basically turn a blind eye to it, and the umpires and linesmen ignore it too - first to do this was Clare (Davy) then Waterford (Davy), Wexford (Davy), and now Galway (copycats) Have the umpires any real function apart from waving their arms and a flag, and they can't get that right either, sometimes.
Nobody examines the standards of the referees (and umpires/linesmen) as much as the standards of the hurlers themselves. Some refereeing decisions are odd to say the least, and people should not be slow to let the powers that be know this. The attitude appears to be that they are above criticism.
Let's open up the debate - the refereeing of the game last night was not up to standard, and it is time to question what is going on here. Is there a need to have two referees for, in particular, inter-county games, where sloppy refereeing can be costly for a team.0
This discussion has been closed.
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