Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 3 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

babyjesus14

Justice for the individual wrote: »

I agree with you as regards Bill Sheehan being struck severelyt twice on the elbow as the referee let the game continue and Bill kicked the ball wide. The referee, after consultation with the umpires, then gave a yellow card to the Galway culprit, but still did not award a free in - what is the story there, can anyone offer an explanation?

I don't know if it is just me, but a clear throwing of the ball by players has crept in as a particular method of delivering the ball more accurately. I see this with most other teams, but in general, Kilkenny do not do it much. The referees basically turn a blind eye to it, and the umpires and linesmen ignore it too - first to do this was Clare (Davy) then Waterford (Davy), Wexford (Davy), and now Galway (copycats) Have the umpires any real function apart from waving their arms and a flag, and they can't get that right either, sometimes.

Nobody examines the standards of the referees as much as the standards of the hurlers themselves. Some refereeing decisions are odd to say the least, and people should not be slow to let the powers that be know this. The attitude appears to be that they are above criticism.

Let's open up the debate - the refereeing of the game last night was not up to standard, and it is time to question what is going on here.

Re. the ref last night. Unfortunately this was not a one off. I watch a lot of underage matches and the standard of referring is a major bugbearer of mine. The underage games are used to blood young refs which is understandable, they have to start somewhere. And they are being assessed and obviously are very conscious of the fact which can result in them being whistle happy. They appear to be looking for infringements rather that letting the game flow and blowing when they see one. The result being frustrated players, management and supporters!

I thought the ref last night was particularly poor spent a lot of time running around consulting with his fellow officials which resulted in him "forgetting " to award us a free at the end of the first half.

While i understand they have to start somewhere surely the players deserve better particularly at under 21 level where they're no second chances?!

Powerhouse

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

Having watched the Cork-Waterford U21 match as well. The Munster game was so much more open and I know some posters have mentioned this in the past, but it is so much harder to get a score against a Leinster team (including Galway now). This makes Leinster matches look dour and Munster matches look exciting. The Munster lads believe this and to be honest they are probably correct. However, the Munster lads have yet to figure out that exciting doesn’t always win matches against Leinster teams. Hence since 2000, twice as many senior All-Irelands have been won by Leinster teams than Munster. I am convinced had Kilkenny being playing Cork or Waterford last night, Kilkenny would have won as it would have suited our hurling style especially the new running game.

You refer to the under-21 grade and the use Senior stats to back up your point. However, the under-21 figures tell a different story. Of the last eight under-21 All-Irelands only one has been won by a non-Munster team (Galway).

Of the last 10 Leinster under-21 finals Kilkenny have reached only five and won only three, in a province which struggled to win All-Irelands. Not the kind of record that would suggest they would have done really well against the Munster style of hurling. Looking for people to be upbeat is all well and good but denying fairly clear evidence that the under-21 grade has been an unproductive slog for Kilkenny is recent times is another matter.

Pat Treacy

babyjesus14 wrote: »

Just what we need another smart arse keyboard warrior! Would you just pause for one second and consider how the players are feeling tonight? They have been training since last November play one match lose by 2 points and that's it! And what thanks do they get? Idiots like you calling them "terrible " and "inept " Kilkenny hurlers need "supporters" like you like they need a hole in the head!

A few choice words from you there .

babyjesus14

Pat Treacy wrote: »

A few choice words from you there .

Indeed and i stand over them! I am all for constructive criticism but people hiding behind usernames personally abusing players i find extremely disrespectful. And if he had to stand up in O'Connor Park last night and say what he said on here within earshot of me i would have been the first to tell him to sit down and be quite!

I note you haven't answered the question i posed to you!

Powerhouse

babyjesus14 wrote: »

Indeed and i stand over them! I am all for constructive criticism but people hiding behind usernames personally abusing players i find extremely disrespectful. And if he had to stand up in O'Connor Park last night and say what he said on here within earshot of me i would have been the first to tell him to sit down and be quite!

I note you haven't answered the question i posed to you!

Your point about abuse of players can’t be argued but repeating the point about “hiding behind usernames” is a bit silly since that’s the nature of the forum - we’re all doing that including yourself. It also unwittingly implies that it would somehow be more acceptable if people were using real names. It would still be no less distasteful. Also your comment about “keyboard warriors”.......sure we’re all “keyboard warriors” to those who pore over page after page on boards like this and eventually find offence. Not sure it carries much weight in this environment.

brookville

Now that the post mortem is done on the dissapointing u21 result wednesday night attension will turn to sunday weeks leinster final.Hopefully we will have learned from salthill where our half fowards were destroyed but worryingly our fowards struggled in the first half against wexford and I thought the introduction of leahy and joey in particular attacked much better and blanchfield made an impact.
I'm hopefull we can give a good account of our ourselves but galway have the ability to give our backs a tough time.
Its unlikely we're going to shift buckley or padraig and I don't think kevin kelly will be ready and ger aylward has struggled with form and injury so far.
I still think we need to start colin and richie i know colin was terrible the last day but richie created a few chances that tailed wide.
We need a 70 min performance which we havent seen since the league
My team
Murphy
murphy,padraig,deegan
joey,buckley,fogarty
leahy,maher
Walter,tj,colin
scanlon,hogan,blanchfield.

Hawkeye6

Powerhouse wrote: »

You refer to the under-21 grade and the use Senior stats to back up your point. However, the under-21 figures tell a different story. Of the last eight under-21 All-Irelands only one has been won by a non-Munster team (Galway).

Of the last 10 Leinster under-21 finals Kilkenny have reached only five and won only three, in a province which struggled to win All-Irelands. Not the kind of record that would suggest they would have done really well against the Munster style of hurling. Looking for people to be upbeat is all well and good but denying fairly clear evidence that the under-21 grade has been an unproductive slog for Kilkenny is recent times is another matter.

Spot on stats and exactly what you would expect from a Munster poster.

Since Brian Cody tenure, the Under-21 has become the final development squad step for Kilkenny and more recently Galway. A means to an end rather than the end. During Brian Cody's tenure, there has been three in a rows from Limerick and Clare at U21 as well as what were allegedly deemed super U21 teams from Tipperary and Waterford. Hasn't translated for any of those into senior dominance, has it?. To be fair I will give Waterford a chance.

Yes it would be lovely to win both like the Kilkenny period of dominance at U21 between 2003 and 2008. (Notice you didn't take those into account, if you wanted to be pedantic senior/U21, why not be pedantic about the time period).

Anyway, once again this year I enjoyed the hype and razzmatazz around the Munster game. Its like watching the kids having fun next door. Doesn't really effect me unless they come into my garden. Its just noise, but I can enjoy it for what it is, knowing I don't have to clean up after it. Did you ever consider playing in your own garden?

gilly0512

Powerhouse wrote: »

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

Having watched the Cork-Waterford U21 match as well. The Munster game was so much more open and I know some posters have mentioned this in the past, but it is so much harder to get a score against a Leinster team (including Galway now).   This makes Leinster matches look dour and Munster matches look exciting. The Munster lads believe this and to be honest they are probably correct. However, the Munster lads have yet to figure out that exciting doesn’t always win matches against Leinster teams. Hence since 2000, twice as many senior All-Irelands have been won by Leinster teams than Munster.   I am convinced had Kilkenny being playing Cork or Waterford last night, Kilkenny would have won as it would have suited our hurling style especially the new running game.

You refer to the under-21 grade and the use Senior stats to back up your point. However, the under-21 figures tell a different story. Of the last eight under-21 All-Irelands only one has been won by a non-Munster team (Galway).

Of the last 10 Leinster under-21 finals Kilkenny have reached only five and won only three, in a province which struggled to win All-Irelands. Not the kind of record that would suggest they would have done really well against the Munster style of hurling. Looking for people to be upbeat is all well and good but denying fairly clear evidence that the under-21 grade has been an unproductive slog for Kilkenny is recent times is another matter.

I think Galway going into Leinster is going to suit them massively at U-21, I've seen previous very good Galway teams lose All Ireland semi finals, that they probably would have won had they the benefit of a Leinster Championship behind them. So in hindsight, will the Leinster counties regret allowing Galway into Leinster at U-21, for even at Minor now they've been given a new round robin series with the beaten Leinster and Munster finalists, so all of this is possibly going to make Galway even stronger going forward?

randd1

gilly2308 wrote: »

I think Galway going into Leinster is going to suit them massively at U-21, I've seen previous very good Galway teams lose All Ireland semi finals, that they probably would have won had they the benefit of a Leinster Championship behind them. So in hindsight, will the Leinster counties regret allowing Galway into Leinster at U-21, for even at Minor now they've been given a new round robin series with the beaten Leinster and Munster finalists, so all of this is possibly going to make Galway even stronger going forward?

Possibly, Galway look in great fettle at the moment at all levels, they've really been putting in the hard yards and might not just start reaping the rewards.

A permanent Leinster championship (providing they stick with the provincial format) where Kilkenny, Dublin, Wexford and Galway (assuming they become permanent) are continuously fighting it out, and sharing the spoils, of the trophies on offer, with hopefully the likes of Offaly, Laois or Westmeath improving too, can only be a good thing in the long run for the province, and the sport overall.

The Leinster counties might regret Galway joining, but I reckon at inter-county level it would be a step forward for the province.

From our own point of view, exposure to more competition will either force us to raise our own game or fade away. At the end of the day, our own future is in our own hands. if we take care of ourselves, we won't have to worry about Galway, or anyone, as much if we sort our own problems out first.

Powerhouse

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

Spot on stats

Er....actually that’s all it was and all it meant to be. If you are going to comment on relative under-21 standards then at least use relevant stats. If as you say the grade doesn’t matter (I tend to agree actually, reality bears this out) then that's good too. But don’t argue a point and use unrelated evidence to back up your point.

The stuff about noise and playing in gardens is needless and shows a strange irritability about the loss of a match at a grade you say doesn’t matter.

Powerhouse

gilly2308 wrote: »

I think Galway going into Leinster is going to suit them massively at U-21, I've seen previous very good Galway teams lose All Ireland semi finals, that they probably would have won had they the benefit of a Leinster Championship behind them. So in hindsight, will the Leinster counties regret allowing Galway into Leinster at U-21, for even at Minor now they've been given a new round robin series with the beaten Leinster and Munster finalists, so all of this is possibly going to make Galway even stronger going forward?

Galway should be in there for Minor too. Makes no sense otherwise. Their presence will affect the balance of power in Leinster forever I imagine. For example Kilkenny will feature in less All Ireland underage finals in the next 30 years than in the last 30. Galway’s presence will boost the Leinster championships across all grades in the sense of making them broadly more competitive but for individual counties it’s bad news.

I’m not sure how having Galway in the province will help the standard of hurling in other counties as some claim. Munster has proven that competitiveness and standards do not necessarily go hand in hand. iIn fact it might just mean that many of the counties don’t get the momentum they otherwise might have got in a championship run. Wexford, for another example, will have a far steeper hill to climb to reach an under-21 All Ireland final in the future.

Galway in Leinster is good news for hurling generally as it ties up a really significant ‘loose end’ in the championships but I don’t think any individual county in Leinster will benefit in terms of winning more as a result of better standards. Kilkenny should hold their own with a population of 100k geared exclusively towards hurling while Galway is picking from probably 20 square miles of an area. But a place like Wexford, or Offaly, or even Dublin with football hovering up so many players will find it hard going.

randd1

Powerhouse wrote: »

Galway should be in there for Minor too. Makes no sense otherwise. Their presence will affect the balance of power in Leinster forever I imagine. For example Kilkenny will feature in less All Ireland underage finals in the next 30 years than in the last 30. Galway’s presence will boost the Leinster championships across all grades in the sense of making them broadly more competitive but for individual counties it’s bad news.

I’m not sure how having Galway in the province will help the standard of hurling in other counties as some claim. Munster has proven that competitiveness and standards do not necessarily go hand in hand. iIn fact it might just mean that many of the counties don’t get the momentum they otherwise might have got in a championship run. Wexford, for another example, will have a far steeper hill to climb to reach an under-21 All Ireland final in the future.

Galway in Leinster is good news for hurling generally as it ties up a really significant ‘loose end’ in the championships but I don’t think any individual county in Leinster will benefit in terms of winning more as a result of better standards. Kilkenny should hold their own with a population of 100k geared exclusively towards hurling while Galway is picking from probably 20 square miles of an area. But a place like Wexford, or Offaly, or even Dublin with football hovering up so many players will find it hard going.

Perhaps then the idea should be about providing challenging games first, winning second?

At minor level, I see no reason why Galway cannot be in Leinster when their seniors and U21's are already there.

Not only that, but it would mean we could redraw the competition somewhat to provide more games for teams. I would allow any Connaught or Ulster side into the Leinster Championship to be honest.

Hypothetically, you could have one group of 6 (Kilkenny, Dublin, Wexford, Galway, Laois & Offaly) as the Leinster Championship. Bottom side relegated to Group B the next year.

The B group could be made up another group of 6 (Kildare, Carlow, Westmeath, Antrim, Meath & Down). Top side promoted to Group A next year.

The top 2 of Group A into the Leinster final. 3rd and 4th of Group A play 1st and 2nd of Group B, winners go to Leinster Shield final to be played on the same day as the Leinster minor final.

The Leinster shield winners would play the Munster runners up, and the Munster shield winners would play the Leinster finalists in the AIQF's.

Either way, virtually every side has 5/6 games a year against team of their own calibre.

Utopia Parkway

Powerhouse wrote: »

. Kilkenny should hold their own with a population of 100k geared exclusively towards hurling while Galway is picking from probably 20 square miles of an area.

The "hurling part" of Galway is probably as big as the entire county of Kilkenny. It's not a small area anyway. Galway is a huge county.

citykat

The upside of that defeat on Wednesday is that clubs now have certainty regarding the restart of the league/championship. Maybe DJ was a CPA plant!

Powerhouse

randd1 wrote: »

Perhaps then the idea should be about providing challenging games first, winning second?

At minor level, I see no reason why Galway cannot be in Leinster when their seniors and U21's are already there.

To take the second point first - of course Galway should be in Leinster for Minor. This isn't even a matter for debate.

To the other point, of course any competition should be about providing challenging games which is why Galway in Leinster is a good idea for the competition. Who wins the competition is an irrelevance.

The only issue I raised was to challenge the view that Galway entering Leinster would raise general standards. I don't believe it works like that. At the end of the day there'll be one Leinster championship and more competitive teams with Galway involved. That means less titles to go around irrespective of what people think about standards.

And also, as Munster has shown again and again and again, just because there is strong competition does not mean standards rise. In fact, look at Kilkenny's successful team of '06-09. They were best when the general standard in Leinster was the poorest it has been in since the turn of the millennium.

For the record I was answering a comment (the origins of these things are usually quickly lost): So in hindsight, will the Leinster counties regret allowing Galway into Leinster at U-21, for even at Minor now they've been given a new round robin series with the beaten Leinster and Munster finalists, so all of this is possibly going to make Galway even stronger going forward?



What I said was: Their presence will affect the balance of power in Leinster forever I imagine. For example Kilkenny will feature in less All Ireland underage finals in the next 30 years than in the last 30. Galway’s presence will boost the Leinster championships across all grades in the sense of making them broadly more competitive but for individual counties it’s bad news.

Powerhouse

Utopia Parkway wrote: »

The "hurling part" of Galway is probably as big as the entire county of Kilkenny. It's not a small area anyway. Galway is a huge county.

Its' funny how every GAA discussion sees the mickeys and the measuring tape coming out. Good man. Measure away. :rolleyes:

Charlie69

Powerhouse wrote: »

Its' funny how every GAA discussion sees the mickeys and the measuring tape coming out. Good man. Measure away. :rolleyes:

But weren't you the one doing the measuring????

Powerhouse

Charlie69 wrote: »

But weren't you the one doing the measuring????

Was I???????????????????? Enlighten me please.

Realt Dearg Sec

Powerhouse wrote: »

Was I???????????????????? Enlighten me please.

You were the one who brought up the size of the population and land area of the two places, genius.

The fact that you don't know how to measure square miles, and measured the population of one place against the land area of the other, doesn't change the fact that you were the one who started into the measuring.

Powerhouse

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

You were the one who brought up the size of the population and land area of the two places, genius.

The fact that you don't know how to measure square miles, and measured the population of one place against the land area of the other, doesn't change the fact that you were the one who started into the measuring.

Show where I mentioned the population of Galway or the land mass of either county?

I mentioned the population of Kilkenny is passing (okay, I do know it's a sensitive topic but it was tangential to the broader point.)

Anyway, genius, (can I name-call too?) point out those measurements you claim I gave (which of course I didn't) and we'll take it from there.

Powerhouse

C'mon genius...…………..still waiting...…………..

You're obviously having a job finding what's not there.

Realt Dearg Sec

Powerhouse wrote: »

Kilkenny should hold their own with a population of 100k geared exclusively towards hurling while Galway is picking from probably 20 square miles of an area.

Powerhouse wrote: »

Show where I mentioned the population of Galway or the land mass of either county?

I didn't say you mentioned the land mass of a county, you mentioned the land area of Galway's hurling region (though you have gotten it hilariously wrong, I'm guessing because you think 20 miles by 20 miles is 20 square miles...). And my whole point in my last post was that you mentioned KK's population, but didn't actually mention Galway's. I'm still wondering, then, what exactly you were measuring.

Realt Dearg Sec

Powerhouse wrote: »

C'mon genius...…………..still waiting...…………..

You're obviously having a job finding what's not there.

Sorry I didn't realise you were timing me. Some of us have a job.

Powerhouse

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Sorry I didn't realise you were timing me. Some of us have a job.

To be fair you can't be that busy in your job when you can stay on a discussion board for lengthy periods.

Powerhouse

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

I didn't say you mentioned the land mass of a county, you mentioned the land area of Galway's hurling region (though you have gotten it hilariously wrong, I'm guessing because you think 20 miles by 20 miles is 20 square miles...). And my whole point in my last post was that you mentioned KK's population, but didn't actually mention Galway's. I'm still wondering, then, what exactly you were measuring.

When I mentioned Kilkenny's population I was measuring the number of people in that county. How is that confusing?

I never mentioned Galway's population (or Wexford's or Dublin's) as it's irrelevant. Comparisons make no sense as in the other counties other stuff goes on.

babyjesus14

Jesus wept, i really don't know why lads bother engaging!

It would have to be a concern that the Minor management are on their 4th different full back and centre back for tomorrows Leinster semi final against Offaly. While there is very little danger that they will lose tomorrow i would have hoped that they would have at least settled on a spine to our defence by this stage considering it's our 5th Championship match.

Realt Dearg Sec

Powerhouse wrote: »

When I mentioned Kilkenny's population I was measuring the number of people in that county. How is that confusing?

I never mentioned Galway's population (or Wexford's or Dublin's) as it's irrelevant.

But what were you measuring it against? Your sentence was clearly structured to compare Galway with Kilkenny, but it was done in this really odd way where you compared the land area from which one team gets its players (though I notice you haven't actually addressed where you plucked that particular number from, but we already know) with the population of the other. Now, rather than try and chase down the meaning of your pseudo-analytical posts, I was just hoping you might actually clarify what you meant. But don't worry about it. You always say you want to have a debate or a discussion, but in practice you just want to get into little squabbles, and are pretty good at instigating them. Good luck with it, I hope it's satisfying for you.

Realt Dearg Sec

babyjesus14 wrote: »

Jesus wept, i really don't know why lads bother engaging!

It would have to be a concern that the Minor management are on their 4th different full back and centre back for tomorrows Leinster semi final against Offaly. While there is very little danger that they will lose tomorrow i would have hoped that they would have at least settled on a spine to our defence by this stage considering it's our 5th Championship match.

Sorry, he's on the ignore list now!

That's a bit odd alright. Who would you want to see in there? (Genuine question, I haven't a clue about the minors anymore!)

Powerhouse

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Your sentence was clearly structured to compare Galway with Kilkenny,

I can't comment on sentence structure. I just compared Galway with three Leinster counties and said that Kilkenny would be well placed to compete with them as they have a 100k population dedicated to hurling only, but the other counties Wexford and Dublin might struggle over the long run as they do not have the same dedicated resources.


I mentioned the population of Kilkenny only as it is usually misleadingly played down by Kilkenny people looking to big up their achievements.

Powerhouse

babyjesus14 wrote: »

Jesus wept, i really don't know why lads bother engaging!

Because they are very busy in work obviously.