Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 3 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

Lefty Bicek

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Well lads, with a couple of days to let reality settle in, is it maybe time to park the endless red card discussion? I think that if KK want to step up and win it next year there needs to be much more reflection on how we responded, rather than lingering on the rights and wrongs of the decision itself.

Brian Hogan was once asked something about who was reffing one of our matches, and in the interview he said that this was a decision that was out of their control, so they just didn't pay it any attention. The point was psychological: players need to focus on the controllables, the things you can influence, rather than the things you can't, which are just excuses at the end of the day.

Every match, as the cliche goes, "takes on a life of its own". All that means is that you need to be able to adapt to circumstance, even when that circumstance is sh1te. Whether the card was right or not, once it happened it was not a controllable element any more, the question is how you adapt to the new circumstance. Coming into the Cork match the big criticism of our team was a lack of adaptability, a predictable approach. We actually started that match badly, with the full backs exposed. But we very quickly adapted to the reality and pushed on.

A lot of people saying Tipp were getting on top anyway, so we would have lost. I don't see how anyone can say that about a one point game, if they paid any attention to our previous two matches, but whatever. We don't know. What I do know is that there's plenty of teams have adjusted to being down to 14 men. Could we have won it? Probably not, but a hammering wasn't inevitable.

Faced with new circumstances, our team went into the dressing room, and we can assume they discussed what the new plan was. In a way, going direct isn't without logic, probably thinking it will save the legs a bit, and you'll take your chances in a 50/50 contest for high ball, like the good old days. But it could also be read as a terrible decision, since we had demonstrated an inability to win that kind of ball all through Leinster. To me the best approach was to work it short, up to midfield, and by-pass the sweeper that way. Would it have worked? No idea, hard to see a win, but it would have involved us having more possession, not relying on high ball, and not dropping said high ball on a half back line that could go completely gung ho after everything because they now had a sweeper and six forwards.

If the lesson we learn from Sunday is that Richie suffered an injustice that ruined the match and Tipp have an asterisk beside their all Ireland and Barrett isn't manly, then we're the eejits. The lesson is about how you adapt to adversity. Because that's basically what hurling is, when it comes down to it. If we lost by a point or two with 14 men, the complaining about the decision would be more warranted (ultimately I think it was the correct decision, but if so it was literally the first correct decision all year on that kind of incident). But there's a lot more to be analysed, about why we reverted to type in adversity, why our decision making abandoned us, reminiscent of the Leinster final where the decision was going for goals when we had plenty of time to claw it back.

If we focus on the controllable aspects of the game, I don't see why we won't be back next year ready to unleash hell on that shower again. Hogan has another year in him, I've no doubt about it, he was playing very well. Look at how much improved our backs have been this year, even on Sunday when we were getting trounced they held their shape and nerve, only the tactics weren't right when they were clearing. Look at Billy Ryan, Leahy, Maher, all fantastic substitutes, TJ is going NOWHERE. Look at Adrian Mullen, and how fantastic a player he is going top become (had a bad day Sunday which there are clearly extenuating circumstances for). We completely overshot our expectations this year, the semi was as satisfying as any All Ireland win to be honest. I hope Limerick spend the winter whining that they would have made a better go of it in the final than we did because we'll probably play them again next year and if we do I think we'll beat them again. By more.

If we concentrate on the actual lessons. There's no lesson to be learned from the Hogan incident. There's plenty from the rest of the match.

It has needed a couple of days to sit through it, but for me this is the essence of it all.

We move on, behind our team.

Those lads owe us nothing, but we owe them a huge amount.

Whiplash85

Hawkeye6 wrote: »

Thank you to all the players and management teams of both the Senior and Minor Kilkenny teams for giving us a great year of intercounty hurling yet again and making sure we got the maximum number of teams to All-Ireland day. Second best is very good, not the best but definitely very good. (I’m sure Limerick, Cork, Waterford, Wexford and Clare would love one of those places, bearing in mind Limerick and Cork were the favourites at the start of the year)

Congratulations to Tipperary. The record will state Tipperary All-Ireland senior hurling champions 2019, the best in Ireland, similar to what it has been for us 36 times in the past. Not to be forgotten!

As regards the red card for Hogan. Yes it was red. Kilkenny people need to accept it. As per current cold rules and on the VIDEO EVIDENCE it is red. This applies to any head strike, either accidental or intentionally. No argument!!! However, in REAL TIME, it is Not red. Nobody can honestly claim that red was on their mind. To be fair to both ref and linesman, I do not believe they made this decision. The decision could only be made by someone who had access to replay the video over a period of one minute and relay the call, hence the delay.

Conspiracy??? Look back at the game and check the last few minutes when Callanan pushed Lawlor in front of the Nally. No free. No signal of advantage. Callanan heads towards goal with the ball and is obviously fouled himself. Referee blows the whistle and strangely gives free to Kilkenny where Lawlor was fouled. Now what made him go back?? No linesman or umpire intervention was there? Shouts from Kilkenny Supporters don’t usually change the ref’s mind. Strange.

James Owens only a few minutes prior to sending Richie off, blew immediately when Barret hit Richie across the head with the hurley. (Remember accident/intent are the same above the head) He saw it and blew. He clearly saw Richie was bleeding from the head, so no doubts of where the strike was. He immediately sent Richie to the line (Is Richie the first player to be sent to the line twice in the One All-Ireland final?). James Owens incorrectly applied common sense and didn’t even give a yellow card. Richie was a man and did not lay down crying. Even the perpetrator Cathal Barrett is on record as saying any strike to the head must be a red card. Moments later, and coincidently the same two players are involved again. Barrett lays down crying after suffering a “massive concussion”. The ref and linesman are not convinced. Ref looks at Barrett. This was irrelevant when he looked at Richie. The message is relayed to Owens during that minute break, “apply the rules to the letter of the law” this time. “Rules are rules”. Which he did. The common sense which he has applied in the past not just in this game was taken off the table. Owens normally doesn’t do red in these situations to be fair, often to our angst. If there was no communication, it would then reflect James Owens in a very poor light.

For those that think this could not possibly happen… Who knew before the semi-final that play could be brought back by Hawkeye (aka Dickie Murphy) for a ball that has gone over the bar (Brian Hogan catches). I certainly didn’t. This is new. And it’s happened twice now. It didn’t happen when Eoin Murphy caught Pauric Mahoney’s free in Thurles a few years ago. Who knows, real time versus video… The Issue here is people don’t realise VAR (I hate the Cromwellian Premiership term) is unofficially in operation for the All-Ireland final. Tipp lads might be smiling but the next time it could be them or some other county. So really ALL counties should be asking the questions surrounding the decision making process for not sending off Barrett and then sending off Richie. It is relevant although it will not change history for us.

I personally think it is great that the Tipp lads (and others) really believe they would have still won 15v15. I personally have no idea. I’d like to think we would have, but to be fair we didn’t handle the 14 man situation very well. These Tipp lads should really do the lotto, if they are so certain without seeing. As a Kilkenny supporter I would encourage them to keep thinking that way. Opportunity to get in under the radar again next year. Of course ye would have won handy. Don’t mind us lads.

Two other observations from Sunday. The occasion is too big for Under-17 finals! It is really not fair on any Under-16 (possibly 15) on the losing side from any county to be distraught in front of so many people, both there and watching on TV. Once again, Liam Sheedy showed no respect to Brian Cody by sauntering off to the middle of Croke Park before the customary congratulatory handshake at the final whistle. I have no problem with the immediate celebration with his management team, but Cody should not have to chase him so far to congratulate him. I’m sure that a mental note has been made.

Congratulations to our Camogie team who did beat Tipp with 15v15, no assumptions needed there. Good luck to them in Final v Galway.

Thats incredible drivel. The constant highlighting of the the justified sending off of Richie Hogan by KK pundits and ex players in every medium known to man has highlighted just how sporting Kilkenny are (only when ye are winning). The delusion of blaming this defeat on James Owens who did his job will only serve to disable proper analysis of where it went wrong for Kilkenny and will stagnate progression. Its fair to say Tipp would have won in 09 had it not being for Diarmuid Kirwan and the record books would now be reading Sheedy 3 Cody 0.

SteJer

Whiplash85 wrote: »

tibruit wrote: »

Completely wrong. Tipp won that game again Wexford because they deviated from what was working well. They went long with 12 puckouts in the closing 15 minutes losing 12 of them with the 3 Mahers accounting for 10 of those. If they kept playing through the lines they would have probably own. They were in reality a Mathew O Hanlon hand pass away from from an All Ireland.

No game becomes a dead rubber after a sending off. There are countless examples over the course of GAA history where team with numerical disadvantage can overcome this through even more hard work and reorganisation.

In reality the levee was about to burst for Kilkenny much like in 10 and 16 when they got annihilated in those finals too. Kilkenny threw everything at Tipp. They probably needed to be 4 or 5 points up at half time with the wind. Tipp had gone a point ahead after 32 minutes before the sending off and after a couple of adjustments. The Niall O Meara goal was the killer for Kilkenny. Haing done all the hurling for 20 minutes they all of a sudden found themselves a point down and the heads went down.

Do you seriously think any player of any team playing in an All-Ireland final would drop their head after 32 minutes of the first half because they go a point behind??

Faugheen

SteJer wrote: »

Could it not be said then that Barrett lowered his head down to Hogan's elbow?

Ah would you go away

SteJer

Whiplash85 wrote: »

Thats incredible drivel. The constant highlighting of the the justified sending off of Richie Hogan by KK pundits and ex players in every medium known to man has highlighted just how sporting Kilkenny are (only when ye are winning). The delusion of blaming this defeat on James Owens who did his job will only serve to disable proper analysis of where it went wrong for Kilkenny and will stagnate progression. Its fair to say Tipp would have won in 09 had it not being for Diarmuid Kirwan and the record books would now be reading Sheedy 3 Cody 0.

... and Tipp would not have won 2010 final if the greatest hurler of all time didn't miss the final through injury. Awarding a penalty to a team (which still has to be scored) with plenty of time remaining to recover from and sending off a player (and not sending off Barrett) in the first half are two very different scenarios.

Lefty Bicek

Whiplash85 wrote: »

Its fair to say Tipp would have won in 09 had it not being for Diarmuid Kirwan and the record books would now be reading Sheedy 3 Cody 0.

The appropriate response to this, is the first line of your own post.

Incredible drivel, indeed.

SteJer

Faugheen wrote: »

Ah would you go away

So you agree then?

Whiplash85

SteJer wrote: »

... and Tipp would not have won 2010 final if the greatest hurler of all time didn't miss the final through injury!!

Injuries are part and parcel of the game. We lost Bonnar but didn't create a circus out of it. There is stuff like player welfare to look out for. Had it been Cody he probably would have wheeled him out tied held together by plaster parris. What happened with Mullen was poor form too. Anyway in terms of Shefflin he was well held in 09 contributing a measley point from play and well shackled by Brendan Maher. He scored a penalty that wasn't and there was a foul in the lead up to Martin Comerfords goal. There was a major asterisk next to that final for me. it says it all when your goalkeeper is MOM. To be honest I never even talked about it with anyone but such is whinging and moaning in the last 2 days that it only feels right to highlight flaws and inconsistencies in the KK mindset.

Tipp over the decades have been arrogant and not good winners at times, earning themselves a reputation in the process. Most counties if not all love seeing Tipp beaten. I think many of these same people are now glad Kilkenny were beaten and resoundedly so. The mask has definitely slipped.

Whiplash85

SteJer wrote: »

... and Tipp would not have won 2010 final if the greatest hurler of all time didn't miss the final through injury. Awarding a penalty to a team (which still has to be scored) with plenty of time remaining to recover from and sending off a player (and not sending off Barrett) in the first half are two very different scenarios.

Barrett tried to play the ball. Hogan tried to play the man (into the Hogan stand)

SteJer

Whiplash85 wrote: »

Barrett tried to play the ball. Hogan tried to play the man (into the Hogan stand)

A head high tackle is a head high tackle, accidental or not. This has to be the way as a referee can't prove or disprove intent before deciding what to do.

SteJer

Whiplash85 wrote: »

Injuries are part and parcel of the game. We lost Bonnar but didn't create a circus out of it. There is stuff like player welfare to look out for. Had it been Cody he probably would have wheeled him out tied held together by plaster parris. What happened with Mullen was poor form too. Anyway in terms of Shefflin he was well held in 09 contributing a measley point from play and well shackled by Brendan Maher. He scored a penalty that wasn't and there was a foul in the lead up to Martin Comerfords goal. There was a major asterisk next to that final for me. it says it all when your goalkeeper is MOM. To be honest I never even talked about it with anyone but such is whinging and moaning in the last 2 days that it only feels right to highlight flaws and inconsistencies in the KK mindset.

Tipp over the decades have been arrogant and not good winners at times, earning themselves a reputation in the process. Most counties if not all love seeing Tipp beaten. I think many of these same people are now glad Kilkenny were beaten and resoundedly so. The mask has definitely slipped.

You're surely not surprised that there is a high level of whinging and moaning on a KK hurling forum after losing an All-Ireland are you? When Tipp lose an All-Ireland do ye all just celebrate the loss? It's very strange that you are spending so much time on a KK hurling forum after winning an All-Ireland. Win, lose or draw an All-Ireland I'd have zero interest in looking at or contributing to a Tipp hurling forum as they would be entitled to feel and discuss whatever they like without a KK poster interfering and trying to cause debates. I have more self respect than that thankfully.

bruschi

SteJer wrote: »

A head high tackle is a head high tackle, accidental or not. This has to be the way as a referee can't prove or disprove intent before deciding what to do.

no, it absolutely is not. And is clearly within the rules too.

If a hurl or a tackle hits someones head, it does not automatically mean it is a red card. Hogan made a movement with his elbow to strike a player in the head. Red card. Barrett made an attempt to flick away the ball and made incidental contact with the head. Free, and, as I have said previously, IMO a yellow card was justified.

I can genuinely see this all next season in Kilkenny games now. Anytime someones head is touched there will be screams and roars for a red card.

JJs Left Hand

bruschi wrote: »

I can genuinely see this all next season in Kilkenny games now. Anytime someones head is touched there will be screams and roars for a red card.

Christ I hadn't even thought of this. The booing is embarrassing enough as it is

adrian522

Well hopefully there is bit more consistency around the whole area. If we go back to just giving yellows for these sorts of challenges (I'm talking about shoulders/elbows making contact with the head) like we've seen all year it shows a bit of hypocrisy. if we see red cards regularly for these challenges then that would be a good thing. I won't be holding my breath though.

BOSTIK

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

A lot of people saying Tipp were getting on top anyway, so we would have lost. I don't see how anyone can say that about a one point game, if they paid any attention to our previous two matches, but whatever.

Your previous two matches weren't against Tipperary though. And Tipp had the elements to come in their favour.

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

If the lesson we learn from Sunday is that Richie suffered an injustice that ruined the match and Tipp have an asterisk beside their all Ireland and Barrett isn't manly, then we're the eejits.

Great point, pity some of your more one-eyed compatriots don't take note.

Whiplash85

SteJer wrote: »

You're surely not surprised that there is a high level of whinging and moaning on a KK hurling forum after losing an All-Ireland are you? When Tipp lose an All-Ireland do ye all just celebrate the loss? It's very strange that you are spending so much time on a KK hurling forum after winning an All-Ireland. Win, lose or draw an All-Ireland I'd have zero interest in looking at or contributing to a Tipp hurling forum as they would be entitled to feel and discuss whatever they like without a KK poster interfering and trying to cause debates. I have more self respect than that thankfully.

Whilst GAA is tribal by nature it is important to get views of neutrals, your own supporters and those of the opponents supporters, or else we are all just speaking in echo chambers. It is not about self respect or finding it strange that I logged in. Maybe thankfully for ye this is my first foray into this forum all year. If you dont like a few hometruths then thats your own look out.

KrustyUCC

Barrett should have got a yellow card alright

Careless use of the hurley

I can't see it being equivalent to Hogans foul

If Barrett's is a red then an extremely high threshold from now on will be reached

SteJer

Whiplash85 wrote: »

Whilst GAA is tribal by nature it is important to get views of neutrals, your own supporters and those of the opponents supporters, or else we are all just speaking in echo chambers. It is not about self respect or finding it strange that I logged in. Maybe thankfully for ye this is my first foray into this forum all year. If you dont like a few hometruths then thats your own look out.

So your first foray into this forum all year is after Tipp win the All-Ireland!! Knowing this it's obvious you are here for any reason other than to give your views on the match. Luckily most Tipp hurling supporters are genuine people and don't see the need to spend their day stalking a KK hurling forum. Enjoy achieving whatever you are trying to achieve on here. I hope it helps fill whatever gap you may have in your life.

JohnCougar

Whiplash85 wrote: »

Thats incredible drivel. The constant highlighting of the the justified sending off of Richie Hogan by KK pundits and ex players in every medium known to man has highlighted just how sporting Kilkenny are (only when ye are winning). The delusion of blaming this defeat on James Owens who did his job will only serve to disable proper analysis of where it went wrong for Kilkenny and will stagnate progression. Its fair to say Tipp would have won in 09 had it not being for Diarmuid Kirwan and the record books would now be reading Sheedy 3 Cody 0.

The record books show

Cody 11, Sheedy 2 , Ryan 1.

Kilkenny 36 Tipperary 28.

Sheedy did not have the balls to stay on after 2010. He is a one in a row manager.

Lefty Bicek

JohnCougar wrote: »

The record books show

Cody 11, Sheedy 2 , Ryan 1.

Kilkenny 36 Tipperary 28.

Sheedy did not have the balls to stay on after 2010. He is a one in a row manager.

Not in favour of disparaging a proven winner, to be honest.

On the other hand, we will never know, but I wonder how he would have fared this year without Eamon O'Shea.

We all hope you don't have to eat those 'one in a row' words.

JohnCougar

Lefty Bicek wrote: »

Not in favour of disparaging a proven winner, to be honest.

On the other hand, we will never know, but I wonder how he would have fared this year without Eamon O'Shea.

We all hope you don't have to eat those 'one in a row' words.

Are you Derek McGrath?? Disparaging :o:o

I don't think I will be eating my words.

Lefty Bicek

JohnCougar wrote: »

Are you Derek McGrath?? Disparaging :o:o

I don't think I will be eating my words.

If you do itself, at least your words are all small ones.

robbiezero

JohnCougar wrote: »

The record books show

Cody 11, Sheedy 2 , Ryan 1.

Kilkenny 36 Tipperary 28.

Sheedy did not have the balls to stay on after 2010. He is a one in a row manager.

Nonsense. Sheedy has plenty balls. It was a brave decision to take on a Tipp team that didn't win a championship match in 2018 and that many thought had reached the end of the road.

kilkennyboy

robbiezero wrote: »

Nonsense. Sheedy has plenty balls. It was a brave decision to take on a Tipp team that didn't win a championship match in 2018 and that many thought had reached the end of the road.

Sheedy knew what was in the dressing room and Cahill had just won a u21.
Easy decision once the new sponsor looked for him.

JJs Left Hand

Fairly sure it was Sheedy who brought the new sponsor in. They discussed it on The Hurling Show last week on OTB.

To be honest lads a few of ye need to get a ****ing grip.

Sheedy is clearly an exceptional manager. He assembled a serious backroom team and his players love him. Throwing disparaging comments at him two days after he's won an All Ireland is ridiculous.

blackcard

Time to move on. Tipp won, good luck to them.
Next year, you would hope that Huw Lawlor consolidates the full back position, Billy Ryan and Adrian Mullen nail down starting positions, Conor Delaney is tried at centre back with Padraig Walsh at right back. I would like to see Jason Cleere tried at left half back. Eoin Cody to be given a chance. Leahy and Blanchfield to given extended runs. Hope that a couple of players put up their hand when playing for their clubs

tibruit

Whiplash85 wrote: »

tibruit wrote: »

Completely wrong. Tipp won that game again Wexford because they deviated from what was working well. They went long with 12 puckouts in the closing 15 minutes losing 12 of them with the 3 Mahers accounting for 10 of those. If they kept playing through the lines they would have probably own. They were in reality a Mathew O Hanlon hand pass away from from an All Ireland.

No game becomes a dead rubber after a sending off. There are countless examples over the course of GAA history where team with numerical disadvantage can overcome this through even more hard work and reorganisation.

In reality the levee was about to burst for Kilkenny much like in 10 and 16 when they got annihilated in those finals too. Kilkenny threw everything at Tipp. They probably needed to be 4 or 5 points up at half time with the wind. Tipp had gone a point ahead after 32 minutes before the sending off and after a couple of adjustments. The Niall O Meara goal was the killer for Kilkenny. Haing done all the hurling for 20 minutes they all of a sudden found themselves a point down and the heads went down.

Yep...Wexford went long......but because their legs were gone and they weren`t giving Fanning any options. This is basic stuff that you can`t seem to grasp. Anyone who thinks they have a game won because they`re a point up after 30 minutes is delusional. A lot of your rhetoric would suggest that Tipp are at least 10 points ahead of the chasing group. I suppose we`ll have to wait until next year to find out. In `09 the ref gave Tipp 21 frees and only 11 to KK. He could have given us 3 penalties in the second half that day and it wouldn`t have made up for some ridiculous decisions he made in the first half when KK were well on top. It was because of him that ye were still in the game at half time.

C__MC

robbiezero wrote: »

Nonsense. Sheedy has plenty balls. It was a brave decision to take on a Tipp team that didn't win a championship match in 2018 and that many thought had reached the end of the road.

To be fair to sheedy he has revived tipp hurling after a dismal 2002-7. Tipp spooked and ultimately ended the 5 in a row in 2010 virtually coming from nowhere to do it beating an experienced kilkenny team in the final. We have all questioned tipp bottle but this year they have been super. The win against wexford was mighty considering the situation they where in. They then did a number on kilkenny quite easily in the final. It wasnt as fluent as 2016 but still a hiding.

Would kilkenny have hammered tipp if bubbles got the line?

Doubtful I would think

Lefty Bicek

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

Fairly sure it was Sheedy who brought the new sponsor in. They discussed it on The Hurling Show last week on OTB.

To be honest lads a few of ye need to get a ****ing grip.

Sheedy is clearly an exceptional manager. He assembled a serious backroom team and his players love him. Throwing disparaging comments at him two days after he's won an All Ireland is ridiculous.

Spot on, Derek.



To be serious though, you're 100% right.

BlachAmber

blackcard wrote: »

Time to move on. Tipp won, good luck to them.
Next year, you would hope that Huw Lawlor consolidates the full back position, Billy Ryan and Adrian Mullen nail down starting positions, Conor Delaney is tried at centre back with Padraig Walsh at right back. I would like to see Jason Cleere tried at left half back. Eoin Cody to be given a chance. Leahy and Blanchfield to given extended runs. Hope that a couple of players put up their hand when playing for their clubs

Would Delaney be a full back, just wondering? Himself and Huw could be 3 and 6 but who goes where.