Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 3 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

Comerman

Excellent post

JJs Left Hand

Lads, honestly, pinning it all on S&C for me is completely misguided and doesn't look at the whole picture. Look at the fouling that went on tonight.

I will never name individuals, at underage in particular, but that team tonight were beaten because Galway were miles better than them. Not because Galway were fitter and stronger. They were beaten because they are not very good.

In the first half we tried to play it out but every time I see a Kilkenny team do it, at all levels, it looks like they're doing it because they think they're supposed to and don't actually know that the purpose of it is. Everyone is doing things a fraction of a second too fast and it just looks like they're panicking.

minty81

Back over 20 years ago Ned Quinn set up a committee following our crisis of going a few years without a minor All Ireland. Any chance Jimmy Walsh might take his head out of the sand to even admit theres a problem in kk?

randd1

minty81 wrote: »

Back over 20 years ago Ned Quinn set up a committee following our crisis of going a few years without a minor All Ireland. Any chance Jimmy Walsh might take his head out of the sand to even admit theres a problem in kk?

Men like Ned Quinn don’t grow in trees. Him and his buddies are badly missed.

Agree with your general sentiment. That’s 12 years now since 2008 without an U21/U20.

In that time we’ve had 3 wins in 2008, 2010 & 2014 at minor. We’ve lost finals 2009, 2018 & 2019. We were arguably the best minor side in 2015 only to get hit with a Galway sucker punch after hitting a mountain of wides. We seem to be producing the players, and Galway apart, have the best record at that level.

And yet our best U21 performance from those minor teams was in 2009 when we lost to Clare by a point, and two beatings in our other finals in 2012 and 2017. Since 2009, we’ve barely done anything of note, other than lose, at the grade.

A review has to be done as to why the standard is dropping so heavily between minor and U20, and why our U20 teams are so often slower and out-fought at that level. Otherwise we’re in Cork famine territory.

A look at our strength and conditioning, speed of wrist and tactics at every level could do with a serious look too.

Alonzo Moseley

There has been an overreaction to this loss but there are warning sirens going off and patterns are emerging that cannot be ignored
We are losing 2nd halves now at every level at a rate of knots
Our 2nd half performances are becoming embarrassing

Teams are getting our measure tactically and physically and are really punishing us while our scoring rate drops off a cliff in final 20 mins

Last two minor finals
Cork 2019 and Galway tonight
Even Kieran's were overrun in 2nd half v Flannans this year

And top of the tree is repeated 2nd half system failures at a senior level in recent years

When they hit the front in 2nd half tonight, selectors should have made a move, brought in two of either of Brennans and Conor Kelly
Instead, it was the Cody mantra "it's grand we are going ok, we will dog it out"
By the time the changes we were chasing a lost cause

It is depressing, for decades we were the market leaders in hurling thinking, but we are now so one dimensional and predictable, and that has permeated to all levels of our inter-county teams

It is essentially hurling arch conservatism

We are still plamased with "Kilkenny are always dangerous"
But frankly, that is now often disingenuous BS to flatter us and Cody in particular

The counties with serious set ups (Limerick, Galway, Tipp) now have us figured and expect to exploit us, especially in 2nd half.

tbiggertycome

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

Lads, honestly, pinning it all on S&C for me is completely misguided and doesn't look at the whole picture. Look at the fouling that went on tonight.

I will never name individuals, at underage in particular, but that team tonight were beaten because Galway were miles better than them. Not because Galway were fitter and stronger. They were beaten because they are not very good.

In the first half we tried to play it out but every time I see a Kilkenny team do it, at all levels, it looks like they're doing it because they think they're supposed to and don't actually know that the purpose of it is. Everyone is doing things a fraction of a second too fast and it just looks like they're panicking.

Is it all S&C definitely not but if your not on a level footing all the other things are just irrelevant. I would also put a lot of those issues down to not being able to feel like you have chance against this beast of a lad so you start fouling, your under pressure so you hit a silly ball out of defence even when you have an open man just outside you. We have lots of things wrong but for me this would at least give us a chance in these games

Galestorm1

The intercounty under age system in kilkenny is so outdated.

Alonzo Moseley

Galestorm1 wrote: »

The intercounty under age system in kilkenny is so outdated.

The template is set at senior level
Our senior set up is totally outdated and that is permeating into all our county teams
I will join JJ and not criticise under age players but there was a big difference in 3/4 players tonight and the freedom and intelligence of the way they hurled with their clubs a few months ago

Cody's influence for me is now stifling things at all levels, except club.

He should see this and step away, and step away completely and allow teams breath, his shadow is everywhere
He is too totemic a figure to ever be involved in any advisory or part-time capacity

kilkennyboy

tbiggertycome wrote: »

As I said here after the Waterford game the county board have a huge amount to answer for and I believe they have fallen a sleep pissed at the wheel and are driving us straight into the ditch. I don't see us getting out of it until they are taken out of the car and a sober crew get on board and realise this is serious. I don't think we can say we don't have the players because if you see an lot of these young lads for their clubs their well able to hurl. I'd be some what forgiving to the management team as it's been a very hard year to come on board and try get the lads together for sessions but they are not blameless in this.

I think the major difference and I've been beating this drum for a while now is the lack of a S&C expert fully qualified all the letters after his name etc. We need that person to be full time and to run the program for all intercounty hurlers from whatever age they are called to a Kilkenny team. Galway have Lukasz Kirszenstein won and AI with Tipp 2016 and Gal 2017 he has been working with all levels of Galway underage and senior for the last 4 years and I think it showed in that second half. Galway lads were popping up all over the place making runs off the ball that would have killed the Kilkenny lads for a few minutes after. They were physically stronger in most areas too. At the end of the game you could see the difference in the upper body and chest size of the Kilkenny and Galway lads it was like boys and men. If you go out and get battered everytime you go near the ball and your man is running all over the place and covering you, you're head would go and the body quickly follows. As I've said before we're sending our lads out to an uneven playing field imagine your playing a game with a big slope on it and you have to run up hill all day and the other team get to run downhill and the big problem is you don't switch sides at half time.

We don't need to win underage to win at senior but it surely helps. We won't win at senior either though as long as we play brain dead hurling as soon as the pressure comes on and a top team will have you under pressure all day.

If clubs don't start seeing the whole thing is rotten then I fear for the future. Clubs need to send stronger delegates to the convention and put forward progressive people to the top positions without change we're in for a torrid time.

Sean kelly from MUCKALEE has being doing that job since 2016 he has been working with development squads as regards s&c programs.
You can look him up. fairly highly regarded in that area its not all about weights unfortunately.
http://staging.goparty.ie/news/read/id/2100

tbiggertycome

kilkennyboy wrote: »

Sean kelly from MUCKALEE has being doing that job since 2016 he has been working with development squads as regards s&c programs.
You can look him up. fairly highly regarded in that area its not all about weights unfortunately.

I'm not having a go at anyone doing their job but the setup is not correct there is no consistency across grades. If Seán is the right man then he should be given the full time role I'm talking about and oversee all levels of the intercounty team preparations.

I never said it was all about weights never mentioned them in fact. From the bit I know, it's about customising programs for each individual to get the desired results for the demands of their position and their own body type and history. Getting the programs right and to use rest as a tool too. I know very little about S&C, I do know a few people who do know all about it and they just don't understand why Kilkenny don't get their act together and do it right. S&C is a basic and should be a given these days, our players should be able to concentrate on skills, touch and shooting based on tonights performance. If Seán is the right man the county board should be writing him up a contract and get him doing the whole job after we've interviewed any other candidates. The first thing the county board need to do is a review and to outline a comprehensive plan to get Kilkenny back to the top table at all levels. We don't have to win AI's ever year or anything like it but we have to give the players the best tools to achieve success I just don't believe we have done that for a long time.

kilkennyboy

I have seen him at work. individual assessment of each player
Looking for strengths and potential weaknesses or injury prevention.
Customized programs then for younger ones alot of movement and flexibility and weights introduced as they progress and mature. The minors tomorrow have been with him since u14

tbiggertycome

kilkennyboy wrote: »

I have seen him at work. individual assessment of each player
Looking for strengths and potential weaknesses or injury prevention.
Customized programs then for younger ones alot of movement and flexibility and weights introduced as they progress and mature. The minors tomorrow have been with him since u14

That's what I've been advocating so why can't we have a consistent approach and run this across all grades as the top counties are doing.

kilkennyboy

Anyone above minor are probably in 3rd level college setups.all development squads are in that program. Weights Wouldn't be a huge part of it functional movement and resistance training using your own bodyweight.

davidx40

Lads we haven't got a proper county board in my opinion ,it's completely disfunctioal .....one of worst chairman in history , Tynan got voted out as coaching officer only 2 weeks ago thank Christ he was some joke .....Pat Henderson is still on it crazy ....we need at least 3 movement/ running coaches for county one to cover north , one city , one south just for u 14 down ...s&c is a pure waste if a child gets to 12/13/14 and can't move or run properly ....need proper county coach the coaches training and follow up not just box ticking **** ...

tbiggertycome

This article from Donegal expresses it better than I can and from an actual expert, unlike myself.

https://www.irishnews.com/sport/gaafootball/2020/12/15/news/a-level-playing-field-donegal-coach-paul-fisher-laments-lack-of-resources-in-quest-to-close-gap-on-dublin-2160191/?fbclid=IwAR29HnHIy89fFN8wis89t2SH08qGZ40l3BHiv_Hza6vfQCOFXPU2rooSUXw

Allguardsare

Time to purge Cody and the dinosaurs in the county Board. Standards as a have been dropping for too long and none of the seem to have any solutions.

BloodyBill

davidx40 wrote: »

Lads we haven't got a proper county board in my opinion ,it's completely disfunctioal .....one of worst chairman in history , Tynan got voted out as coaching officer only 2 weeks ago thank Christ he was some joke .....Pat Henderson is still on it crazy ....we need at least 3 movement/ running coaches for county one to cover north , one city , one south just for u 14 down ...s&c is a pure waste if a child gets to 12/13/14 and can't move or run properly ....need proper county coach the coaches training and follow up not just box ticking **** ...

Youre right. Kids get their running gait at about 4 and 8. Some kids need to be thought how to run so they are fast when they get older and not just plodders.

greenspurs

greenspurs wrote: »

All Ireland final will be in July 2021, and then the Club championships will begin.

NHL back in february -> Championship -> All Irl -> Club.

Its going to be a tough year.

conor05 wrote: »

Is there a link to this information anywhere?

This is happening.

NHL from Feb -> April.
No 1/4 or 1/2 Finals - winners of 1a play winners of 1b etc.

Championship played after League.
11 teams - A prelim round in the qualifiers between the 2 defeated Leinster 1/4 final winners.

McDonagh cup winner maybe promoted in 2021, but not a back door in MacCarthy cup
Leinster final will bo on May 22 , with McDonagh cup.

Deskjockey

davidx40 wrote: »

Lads we haven't got a proper county board in my opinion ,it's completely disfunctioal .....one of worst chairman in history , Tynan got voted out as coaching officer only 2 weeks ago thank Christ he was some joke .....Pat Henderson is still on it crazy ....we need at least 3 movement/ running coaches for county one to cover north , one city , one south just for u 14 down ...s&c is a pure waste if a child gets to 12/13/14 and can't move or run properly ....need proper county coach the coaches training and follow up not just box ticking **** ...

Who is doing it instead of Pat Tynan

Hadn't heard about that vote

corner back 2

I have been reading the debate that has been going on here since the semi final defeat and now the U 20 loss and I would have to say there has been some excellent points made on both sides. I would have been in the pro Cody camp as he has shown the ability to evolve in the past but I am beginning to think it might be time for fresh thinking at all levels. Hearing the level of preparation that Limerick did this year and how their coaching is done by Kinnerk makes me think we are miles behind. This includes strength and conditioning which is vital in today's game. It is more than just weights and a stopwatch. I don't subscribe to the view that our hurlers are not good enough. We are not better than other teams as we may have been in the past but we are not that far behind that some tactics and coaching wouldn't bring us up to the needed level. If we look towards the style that the Shamrocks play where they mix short and long, emphasise support play and good use of the ball then Kilkenny wont be two far off. I think it may be time for Cody to bow out not because he is doing a bad job but that it is time for change and fresh thinking.

tbiggertycome

corner back 2 wrote: »

I have been reading the debate that has been going on here since the semi final defeat and now the U 20 loss and I would have to say there has been some excellent points made on both sides. I would have been in the pro Cody camp as he has shown the ability to evolve in the past but I am beginning to think it might be time for fresh thinking at all levels. Hearing the level of preparation that Limerick did this year and how their coaching is done by Kinnerk makes me think we are miles behind. This includes strength and conditioning which is vital in today's game. It is more than just weights and a stopwatch. I don't subscribe to the view that our hurlers are not good enough. We are not better than other teams as we may have been in the past but we are not that far behind that some tactics and coaching wouldn't bring us up to the needed level. If we look towards the style that the Shamrocks play where they mix short and long, emphasise support play and good use of the ball then Kilkenny wont be two far off. I think it may be time for Cody to bow out not because he is doing a bad job but that it is time for change and fresh thinking.

Eloquently and respectful put, agree wholeheartedly

Stopitwillya

Who should take over from cody and who are the coaches in Kilkenny that posters would like to see involved in yere county teams. Is the standard of coaches in Kilkenny declining? Looks like lots of Kilkenny clubs are starting to go for outside coaches, Dan and Willie Maher, paraic fanning and tony Browne, Eugene Cloonan, cheddar, etc.

As an outsider it looks like Henry is building up his CV to be yere next manager.

benji79

A lot of the brilliant Kilkenny team are involved now in coaching and management , shefflin, Brennan, lyng, herity, fennelly, rice, comerford, etc.
All Ireland medals falling out their pockets. But maybe sometimes successful players find it difficult to become successful coaches? I’m not sure really.

I know here in Cork we’d Donal og, Sean og and Tom Kenny with the minors but it didn’t really work out. I think people automatically expected them to win as management because they won as players. And now after a heavy defeat last weekend they’re being slated

JJs Left Hand

Bar Tommy Shefflin (maybe), I don't think we have a top class MODERN COACH in Kilkenny.

And I think, like all the references to Shamrocks made in this thread, the quality of their players makes any proper assessment of him/their style of hurling very difficult in the context of Kilkenny as a whole.

tbiggertycome

I would have Richie O'Neill in as a coach/selector with any new setup think he sees the field really well and heard he works very well with the players. Was with Eddie for AI run with U21 and Henry in Ballyhale for 2 AI's

JJs Left Hand

Over the Ballycallan minors now I believe

Found him very good at any of the coaching courses I've done tbf

tbiggertycome

The minor is on TG4 YouTube channel tomorrow
https://youtu.be/nL2Y2qGxKKY

tbiggertycome

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

Over the Ballycallan minors now I believe

Found him very good at any of the coaching courses I've done tbf

Think he is doing goalkeeping coaching in Ttown with Henry too.

tibruit

JJs Left Hand wrote: »

3 scorers

1-3 from play

Pathetic

Actually 4 scorers. I-4 from play. Galway scored 0-7 from play. No Galway player scored more than a point from play. We were let down by indiscipline in the second half. Off the top of my head we created three good goal chances and converted one. Galway created one that was saved. Had we taken the goal chances we would have won.

I do not understand how so many can be so negative about this performance given the strength in depth that Galway clearly have.

tibruit

Alonzo Moseley wrote: »

The counties with serious set ups (Limerick, Galway, Tipp) now have us figured and expect to exploit us, especially in 2nd half.

It`s easy expect. A bit harder to deliver though. We beat two of those three the last time we played them in the championship.