Wedge Loft and bounce

RoadRunner

Worn or dirty wedges can reduce stop and hard summer greens will be harder to stop on.

GreeBo

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Angle of attack is a measure of how the club is approaching the ball it can be downward or upward.

Exactly.

So how you can say that hitting down on the ball has no impact on AoA is confusing to me.

ShivasIrons

GreeBo wrote: »

Exactly.

So how you can say that hitting down on the ball has no impact on AoA is confusing to me.

No what I said was hitting down on the ball has no effect on spin.

GreeBo

ShivasIrons wrote: »

No what I said was hitting down on the ball has no effect on spin.

Its the same thing though.

You are saying :

- AoA impacts spin.
- Hitting down (or up) impacts AoA.
- Hitting down doesn't impact spin.

I dont see how this is possible, one of the above statements must be wrong as they conflict.

ShivasIrons

GreeBo wrote: »

Its the same thing though.

You are saying :

- AoA impacts spin.
- Hitting down (or up) impacts AoA.
- Hitting down doesn't impact spin.

I dont see how this is possible, one of the above statements must be wrong as they conflict.

I didn't say angle of attack effects spin, it doesn't.



I did say angle of attack is hitting up or down, that is what angle of attack is.



I did say hitting down doesn't impact spin, because it doesn't.


Angle of attack alone does not effect spin.

GreeBo

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Angle of attack alone does not effect spin.

"alone"?
so it does or it doesn't?

Im genuinely trying to understand what you are saying because anything I have read about spin-loft/compression involves angle of attack.

I didn't say angle of attack effects spin, it doesn't.

Angle of attack alone does not effect spin.

You seem to be contradicting yourself in those two lines?

ShivasIrons

GreeBo wrote: »

"alone"?
so it does or it doesn't?

Im genuinely trying to understand what you are saying because anything I have read about spin-loft/compression involves angle of attack.



You seem to be contradicting yourself in those two lines?

Spin loft is primarily the difference between the attack angle and the dynamic loft, so to increase/decrease spin the spin loft should be increased/decreased. To increase or decrease spin loft the relationship between angle of attack and dynamic loft must be changed.



Let's use an example of a spin loft of 20 degrees, the spin coming from this spin loft will be the same whether the attack angle is up/positive, neutral or down/negative. So changing the attack angle doesn't effect spin. Changing the relationship between the attack angle and dynamic loft will change spin. So it's possible to hit up and have less or more spin and hit down and have less or more spin.


Does that help?

GreeBo

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Spin loft is primarily the difference between the attack angle and the dynamic loft, so to increase/decrease spin the spin loft should be increased/decreased. To increase or decrease spin loft the relationship between angle of attack and dynamic loft must be changed.



Let's use an example of a spin loft of 20 degrees, the spin coming from this spin loft will be the same whether the attack angle is up/positive, neutral or down/negative. So changing the attack angle doesn't effect spin. Changing the relationship between the attack angle and dynamic loft will change spin. So it's possible to hit up and have less or more spin and hit down and have less or more spin.


Does that help?

It doesn't help understanding you saying that hitting down on the ball has no effect on spin.

I understand where spin comes from, I explained it in the post you replied to where you said

angle of attack has no effect on spin, hitting down on the ball less or more doesn't increase spin

Which, in my opinion at least, you keep totally contradicting and did so again in your most recent post.

Spin loft controls spin.
Aoa is one of the things that controls spin loft.

Saying aoa doesn't affect spin or spin loft is just wrong and illogical.

If you are trying to say that the same spin loft will give the same spin regardless of how you achieved that spin loft then that's fine. But aoa is always involved in determining spin loft, ergo spin.

ShivasIrons

GreeBo wrote: »

It doesn't help understanding you saying that hitting down on the ball has no effect on spin.

I understand where spin comes from, I explained it in the post you replied to where you said


Which, in my opinion at least, you keep totally contradicting and did so again in your most recent post.

Spin loft controls spin.
Aoa is one of the things that controls spin loft.

Saying aoa doesn't affect spin or spin loft is just wrong and illogical.

If you are trying to say that the same spin loft will give the same spin regardless of how you achieved that spin loft then that's fine. But aoa is always involved in determining spin loft, ergo spin.

So then how does changing the attack angle change spin? In other words if the attack angle is increased what does spin do? If the attack angle is decreased what does spin do?

GreeBo

ShivasIrons wrote: »

So then how does changing the attack angle change spin? In other words if the attack angle is increased what does spin do? If the attack angle is decreased what does spin do?

It's a combination of AoA and dynamic loft.
If you change the AoA then you change the spin on the ball *unless* you also change the dynamic loft to compensate. Thats possible for some scenarios in the "middle" but not for other. To take it to extremes, if I hit down on the ball 90* then all the dynamic loft in the world isnt going to spin it.

I think its disingenuous to talk about changing the AoA without changing the spin.
The only way you can do this is if you also alter the dynamic loft which is just moving the goalposts of your argument that "angle of attack has no effect on spin, hitting down on the ball less or more doesn't increase spin"


You cant start an example from the spin loft, thats the result.
You start with AoA and Dynamic loft, assuming all other conditions to be the same (friction, ball, etc) and you end up with a spin loft.

Otherwise I could just as easily say Dynamic loft doesnt impact spin, if I have spin loft of 20 then it doesnt matter if I open or close the face as 20 is 20.

ShivasIrons wrote: »

Changing the relationship between the attack angle and dynamic loft will change spin"

You change the relationship by changing your AoA!

You are basically saying that if A + B = C
then changing A will have no impact to the result. But then sneaking in "well as long as you also change B"!

GreeBo

Trackman wrote:

Spin loft is approximately the angle between the dynamic loft and attack angle.

The spin rate of a shot is largely influenced by the spin loft. All else equal, a higher spin loft will result in a higher spin rate

Simply subtracting attack angle from dynamic loft will give a close approximation of the spin loft angle.

I think you are taking the quote below from https://www.ballflightacademy.com/spin-loft-english/ (since it also happens to use 20* in the example!)
"For example, if the player swings down at the ball with above equation and the numbers still equate to 20*, no more spin will be on that golf ball."

But thats not saying that AoA doesn't change spin loft, its saying that 20* spin loft is 20* spin loft, no matter how you get it.