2018-19 UEFA Champions League

8-10

Nunu wrote: »

Pele won 3 world cups, the first when he lit up the tournament as a 17 year old. That’s the main reason, allied with his world class ability he’s regarded so highly. I’ve no doubt Messi is the superior talent but Peles legacy is untouchable.

Mbappe can get there

NIMAN

charolais0153 wrote: »

Pele done it in world cup finals ,messi barely dpes it in the knockout stages of wc/ cl

To be fair to Pele, he tended to have loads of top class players around him at international level.

Messi doesn't. There's been a dearth of argie talent for a long time now.

One man doesn't win tournaments on his own. It's a team sport.

Guy:Incognito

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Pele is the most overrated player to play the sport,

Count's goals from friendlies and exhibition games in his stats ,He even counted games he played for the Sixth Coast Guard in the military competition,

Not the same planet as Messi ,

1956–1974 Santos 638 (619)

Thats not friendlies and exhibitions.

charolais0153

NIMAN wrote: »

To be fair to Pele, he tended to have loads of top class players around him at international level.

Messi doesn't. There's been a dearth of argie talent for a long time now.

One man doesn't win tournaments on his own. It's a team sport.

Ah lad Di maria, aguero, dybala, higuain, lamela, lavezzi are/were all players of the highest standard.see the worldi di maria scored at the weekend,and aguero is oneof the greatest strilers of the premier league era.
Romero is a goof keepee.
Otamendi and mascherano are good centre backs also. Banega is a proper midfielder too.
Mightnt be the best team in the world but they have the best player in the world.

charolais0153

Nunu wrote: »

To be fair he turned it on only last week against Lyon. Ran the show.

Lyon are a decent team but it was at home and they arent a real heavyweight of europe. 3 of the goals were in the last 15 mins when lyon were getting fairly fatigued.
In the last 4 years they have lost to roma,juve and atletico. Messi doesnt seem to eun the show in games like these. I dont think anybody can because they're well drilled sides but they're games i feel the goat should have more of an impact.

gimli2112

Pele deserves to be in any debate around the greatest of all time. Anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional. You can't really compare players from wildly different eras.

8-10

gimli2112 wrote: »

Pele deserves to be in any debate around the greatest of all time. Anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional. You can't really compare players from wildly different eras.

This is the thread about the UEFA Champions League, where is Pelé coming into the debate? He never played in Europe

yourdeadwright

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

1956–1974 Santos 638 (619)

Thats not friendlies and exhibitions.

Well that why people argue with him being the GOAT
As far as I am aware the majority of the teams in the league where not even Pro's

Santos regularly won 10-0, 9-2 and the likes ,

magma69

charolais0153 wrote: »

Compared to pele*.cant remember the last time messi turned it on in chsmpions leageu. Barca certailny havent done it for the last few years

He has 39 goals in 59 games. The second most goals ever in the knockout stages after Ronaldo.

In literally his most recent match in the knock out stages of the cl, he scored two, got two assists and was clear man of the match.

Guy:Incognito

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Well that why people argue with him being the GOAT
As far as I am aware the majority of the teams in the league where not even Pro's

Santos regularly won 10-0, 9-2 and the likes ,

and yet he managed to score 77 goals in 92 caps for Brazil too.

EDIT Out of curiosity I picked a random season, 1968 and checked the table. Santos won their group ( the country is in 2 groups and the top 2 from each go to finals) . Santos scored 37 and conceded 18 in their 16 games. For comparison, after 16 games last season , City had a +37 goal difference.

beya2009

magma69 wrote: »

He has 39 goals in 59 games. The second most goals ever in the knockout stages after Ronaldo.

In literally his most recent match in the knock out stages of the cl, he scored two, got two assists and was clear man of the match.

I think the point being made there is that when it really matters in UCL in the last few years Messi has had too man quiet games especially away from home. Most recent one....Messi had a shocker in both legs against Roma last season.



I'm a huge Messi fan but I have to admit that Ronaldo in comparison keeps delivering when it matters most in UCL in the last few years...arguably biggest game player ever.

beya2009

We can say all we want about different times back then (Pele's era) to the modern game now and it's always an interesting debate...the Pele/Messi comparisons. Pele might have only played in his domestic league but it's his scary record for Brazil and his success for his national team that makes him special. One thing that has not changed from that era to now is that international football is harder than club football (much harder I would argue) and in Pele's case he really delivered.

charolais0153

beya2009 wrote: »

We can say all we want about different times back then (Pele's era) to the modern game now and it's always an interesting debate...the Pele/Messi comparisons. Pele might have only played in his domestic league but it's his scary record for Brazil and his success for his national team that makes him special. One thing that has not changed from that era to now is that international football is harder than club football (much harder I would argue) and in Pele's case he really delivered.

I was reading up on it and he vowed to never play for the national team againm because he was getting butchered by tackles from portugal and bulgaria. Game has changed a lot since then.

yourdeadwright

Below is the sort of things Pele count in his goals, the below counts for 51 of his goals he claims , There Santos v Countries as you can see they play Congo , Hongkong and the likes ,
This is in the 70's they would be terrible ,
Just to explain the numbers at the end, first one is goals he scored in the game, second one is the goals added on from previous games





1. 21/01/1959 Brazil Santos 3–1 Costa Rica 0 0
2. 17/02/1959 Brazil Santos 3–2 Curaçao 0 0
3. 23/05/1959 Brazil Santos 3–3 Bulgaria 2 2
4. 24/05/1959 Brazil Santos 2–0 Bulgaria 1 3
5. 25/05/1960 Brazil Santos 5–2 Poland 2 5
6. 18/01/1961 Brazil Santos 2–1 Colombia 2 7
7. 29/01/1961 Brazil Santos 3–1 Guatemala Guatemala 2 9
8. 11/06/1961 Brazil Santos 3–1 Israel Israel 1 10
9. 14/02/1962 Brazil Santos 3–1 Brazil Brazil 1 11
10. 10/12/1962 Brazil Santos 2–1 Soviet Union Soviet Union 1 12
11. 16/01/1965 Brazil Santos 6–4 Czech Republic Czechoslovakia 3 15
12. 28/05/1967 Brazil Santos 4–1 Senegal Senegal 3 18
13. 31/05/1967 Brazil Santos 4–0 Gabon Gabon 1 19
14. 02/06/1967 Brazil Santos 2–1 Republic of the Congo 1 20
15. 04/06/1967 Brazil Santos 2–1 Ivory Coast Ivory Coast 1 21
16. 07/06/1967 Brazil Santos 3–2 Republic of the Congo 3 24
17. 13/01/1968 Brazil Santos 4–1 Czech Republic 0 24
18. 26/01/1969 Brazil Santos 2–2 Nigeria 2 26[228]
19. 09/02/1969 Brazil Santos 1–1 Algeria 0 26
20. 19/01/1969 Brazil Santos 3–2 Republic of the Congo 2 28
21. 21/01/1969 Brazil Santos 2–0 Republic of the Congo 0 28
22. 23/01/1969 Brazil Santos 2–3 Republic of the Congo 2 30
23. 10/12/1970 Brazil Santos 4–1 Hong Kong 2 32
24. 11/12/1970 Brazil Santos 4–0 Hong Kong 3 35
25. 13/12/1970 Brazil Santos 5–2 Hong Kong 1 36
26. 17/12/1970 Brazil Santos 4–0 Hong Kong 2 38
27. 23/01/1971 Brazil Santos 4–1 Martinique 1 39
28. 31/01/1971 Brazil Santos 1–1 Jamaica 0 39
29. 26/01/1971 Brazil Santos 2-1 Guadeloupe 1 40
30. 17/02/1971 Brazil Santos 2–0 Haiti 0 40
31. 26/05/1972 Brazil Santos 3–0 Japan 2 42
32. 02/06/1972 Brazil Santos 3–2 South Korea 1 43
33. 10/06/1972 Brazil Santos 6–1 Thailand 2 45
34. 17/06/1972 Brazil Santos 2–2 Australia 0 45
35. 21/06/1972 Brazil Santos 3–2 Indonesia 1 46
36. 05/09/1972 Brazil Santos 1–0 Trinidad and Tobago 1 47
37. 12/02/1973 Brazil Santos 1–1 Kuwait 1 48
38. 16/02/1973 Brazil Santos 7–1 Bahrain 2 50
39. 23/05/1976 United States American All-Stars 0–4 Italy 0 50
40. 31/05/1976 United States American All-Stars 1–3 England 0 50
41. 08/09/1976 United States New York Cosmos 1–1 Canada 0 50
42. 10/09/1976 United States New York Cosmos 1–3 Canada0 50
43. 25/09/1976 United States New York Cosmos 2–2 Japan 0 50
44. 14/09/1977 United States New York Cosmos 1–3 Japan 0 50
45. 17/09/1977 United States New York Cosmos 1–1 China 0 50
46. 20/09/1977 United States New York Cosmos 1–2 China 1 51

ArmaniJeanss

"Pele - burst on scene as teenager in '58 World Cup but blanked the next two World Cups before 20 day upward career blip in Mexico '70. Never attempted to prove himself on the big European stage, before ending up in MLS in early 30s and then retiring prematurely. Lots of question marks."

I mainly jest, but it's the sort of superficial half-truth analysis that modern players are subjected to.

BullBlackNova

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/mar/27/bayern-munich-lucas-hernandez-signing-atletico-madrid?CMP=share_btn_tw

Interesting one here - the long-mooted move of Lucas Hernandez from Atletico to Bayern is now completed. €68 million.

He's the second defensive recruit for Bayern after their signing of Benjamin Pavard too.

Hernandez has already played his last game for Atletico as he's out for the rest of the season with knee ligament damage.

Bayern need substantial investment on top of those two to bridge the gap to the likes of Man City, Barca, etc if they are to win the CL in the next few seasons.

jacool

"Hernandez has already played his last game for Atletico as he's out for the rest of the season" as he underwent surgery to ensure he's ready for next season, I think!!

Harry Palmr

https://twitter.com/TimesSport/status/1114069220231454720

BullBlackNova

Harry Palmr wrote: »

https://twitter.com/TimesSport/status/1114069220231454720

Some baffling things there -

- I can understand the idea of expanding group sizes as it means more games, more revenue. I'm not necessarily in favour of it, but it makes sense from their perspective.
- But the idea of making it a closed shop makes no sense to me. The European Clubs Association is pushing this - there are 230+ members, including teams like Everton, Sampdoria, Fiorentina, Lille, Rennes, etc who would essentially be closing off their chances of ever being at the top of European football again. What's the sense in that?
- It's reassuring to hear the UEFA Pres rule out the idea of playing Euro football at the weekend. At the very least, that'll hopefully push that out.

The possibility of changing the qualification for the Champions League is the biggest threat to the English domestic competition because the race for the top four is viewed as one of the main driving forces of supporter interest. One ECA proposal would mean initial qualification was based on a club coefficient system reflecting the previous four years’ results in Europe, or even weighted towards clubs who have won European trophies in the past.

Under the four-groups-of-eight idea, the ECA has proposed a promotion and relegation system, which would effectively make it into a European superleague. The 24 clubs who finish in the top six of each group would automatically qualify for the next year’s competition, meaning that the rest of Europe’s clubs would be competing for only eight spots.

Harry Palmr

The 24 clubs who finish in the top six of each group would automatically qualify for the next year’s competition, meaning that the rest of Europe’s clubs would be competing for only eight spots

Clearly this is wildly unbalanced - they'd have to double the qualifier places to 16 for it to be at all meaningful.

TheCitizen

The proposals are confusing and all over the place. It proposes a closed shop but then also talks about relegation for bottom two clubs and qualifiers for those spots the following season.

Appears to be set up to suit a handful of clubs like Juve, PSG and Bayern who dominate their own leagues but don't get the revenue from that that they get in the EPL for example, I have no idea why the rest of the clubs would support that.

citytillidie

Quarter-Finals
Playing Tuesday
Liverpool (ENG) V Porto (POR) - Live on BT Sport 3 / RTE 2
Tottenham Hotspur (ENG) V Manchester City (ENG) - Live on BT Sport 2 / Virgin Media 1

Playing Wednesday
Ajax (NED) V Juventus (ITA) - Live on BT Sport 3 / Virgin Media 1
Manchester United (ENG) V Barcelona (ESP) - Live on BT Sport 2

yourdeadwright

citytillidie wrote: »

Quarter-Finals
Playing Tuesday
Liverpool (ENG) V Porto (POR) - Live on BT Sport 3 / RTE 2
Tottenham Hotspur (ENG) V Manchester City (ENG) - Live on BT Sport 2 / Virgin Media 1

Playing Wednesday
Ajax (NED) V Juventus (ITA) - Live on BT Sport 3 / Virgin Media 1
Manchester United (ENG) V Barcelona (ESP) - Live on BT Sport 2

My predictions

2-1 Liverpool
1-3 City
2-2 Ajax /Juve
2-3 Barcelona

yourdeadwright

yourdeadwright wrote: »

My predictions

2-1 Liverpool
1-3 City
2-2 Ajax /Juve
2-3 Barcelona

Prediction?

Liverpool 3 - 0 Porto
Tottenham 1 - 1 ManchesterC
Ajax 1 - 1 Juventus
ManchesterU 1 - 2 Barcelona

xtal191

Hmmm

Liverpool 4-0 Porto
Tottenham 2-1 Manchester City
Ajax 1-0 Juventus
Manchester United 1-4 Barcelona

NIMAN

Isn't Ronaldo out for the 1st leg?

Looking forward to these nights. Some great ties there.

Porthallian

yourdeadwright wrote: »

My predictions

2-1 Liverpool
1-3 City
2-2 Ajax /Juve
2-3 Barcelona

3-1 Liverpool
2-1 Spurs
1-1 Ajax/Juventus
1-2 Barcelona

8-10

xtal191 wrote: »

Hmmm

Liverpool 4-0 Porto
Tottenham 2-1 Manchester City
Ajax 1-0 Juventus
Manchester United 1-4 Barcelona

As someone who watches the majority of Ajax games I can tell you right now there's no way Juve don't score. 4 clean sheets this calendar year and 5 in past 24 games.

Both teams to score is most likely in the Ajax game but if anyone gets a clean sheet it'll be Juventus.

Overall I'd bite my own hand off for this set of results!

Berserker

Liverpool 5-0 Porto - Same score as first leg last year. Game will be pretty similar.
Tottenham 1-1 Manchester City - Tough game for City. Spurs will be well up for this. City will win the second leg though.
Ajax 2-2 Juventus - Goals all round here. Ajax concede too many but they'll score.
Manchester United 1-2 Barcelona - Barca will be too good for United.

ShamoBuc

Pool 2-0 Porto are better than last year.
Spurs 1-2 City should be good enough to win.
Ajax 1-1 Ronaldo missing might be enough for Ajax to get the draw.
Utd 1-1 think utd will keep it tight and Barca will be happy with a low scoring affair with a view to a convincing home win the next time.

~Rebel~

Berserker wrote: »

Liverpool 5-0 Porto - Same score as first leg last year. Game will be pretty similar.
Tottenham 1-1 Manchester City - Tough game for City. Spurs will be well up for this. City will win the second leg though.
Ajax 2-2 Juventus - Goals all round here. Ajax concede too many but they'll score.
Manchester United 1-2 Barcelona - Barca will be too good for United.

I doubt the score will be the same, but the game will definitely not be the same. Last year Porto crazily threw caution to the wind, went at Liverpool, and left themselves wide open on the counter. Absolutely no chance they won't be resolute and cautious tomorrow. I'd be very happy with a 2-0 if we could sneak it (Salah and Bobby).

Otherwise,
Spurs 1 - 2 Man City (Kane, Bernardo S, and Sterling)
Ajax 1 - 2 Juve (Moise Kean with at least one of them though I fancy him to announce himself in europe with both - thats if Ronaldo really does miss out)
Man U 1 - 2 Barcelona (Rashford, Messi and Suarez)

8-10

Off to Anfield tonight. Can’t beat the CL atmosphere in the Kop. Can’t stand the referee assigned to the game so a little worried about that but overall think we should have enough to get a win. This Porto are a good side though, I think fans are underestimating them but Klopp won’t be.

Personally I’d start Lovren and Origi. I think we’ll need to rely on both of them in the next couple of weeks and they need minutes. But hard to justify not starting all of the front 3.

Nice to have a distraction from the league. I’m sure it’s the same for Porto who are joint top in Portugal. Same situation for Ajax and City

NIMAN

Comfortable enough for 'Pool I think.

yourdeadwright

Porto are a totally different kettle of fish this season but I heard they only have 15/16 senior players available due to suspension and injury ,

Be nice for Liverpool to get a good 3 or 4 nil win and rest some players in the away tie ,

Berserker

8-10 wrote: »

Personally I’d start Lovren and Origi. I think we’ll need to rely on both of them in the next couple of weeks and they need minutes. But hard to justify not starting all of the front 3.

You need to play your front three and I'd wouldn't play Lovren. Last thing you need tonight is Porto getting something to hold on to early doors due to a gaff at the back. Play your strongest XI tonight, win the tie and you can rest them next week.

GLaDOS

Liverpool aren't blowing many teams out of the water this season, I'd be surprised if Liverpool are in a position to take it easy in the 2nd leg.

8-10

Berserker wrote: »

You need to play your front three and I'd wouldn't play Lovren. Last thing you need tonight is Porto getting something to hold on to early doors due to a gaff at the back. Play your strongest XI tonight, win the tie and you can rest them next week.

I rate Lovren higher than Matip overall although Matip is doing very well right now.

To be clear I'm not saying we do it to give anyone a rest, and as I say we can't underestimate Porto. I just think those players need more minutes as they're going to be needed.

I can't see Origi starting but Lovren must have a chance of it you'd think. Milner at left back is a bit of a worry so Virgil will likely be pulled across that way more. Although I expect us to dominate possession and be on the front foot throughout.

yourdeadwright

8-10 wrote: »

I rate Lovren higher than Matip overall although Matip is doing very well right now.

To be clear I'm not saying we do it to give anyone a rest, and as I say we can't underestimate Porto. I just think those players need more minutes as they're going to be needed.

I can't see Origi starting but Lovren must have a chance of it you'd think. Milner at left back is a bit of a worry so Virgil will likely be pulled across that way more. Although I expect us to dominate possession and be on the front foot throughout.

I tend to agree with the above ,

You have to get players like Lovren playing a game again at some stage, They need game time in case they are injuries and suspensions and they are required to play ,

I'd play Lovren and Shaq tonight I think Origi has been involved enough to be fit,

Its not like your playing to kids both very experienced international

Worztron

Deleted User wrote: »

Prediction?

Liverpool 3 - 0 Porto
Tottenham 1 - 1 ManchesterC
Ajax 1 - 1 Juventus
ManchesterU 1 - 2 Barcelona

• Liverpool 2 - 1 Porto
• Tottenham 2 - 1 ManchesterC
• Ajax 1 - 2 Juventus
• ManchesterU 1 - 3 Barcelona

5star02707

Good article from BBC regarding qualifications in Europe

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/47806720

LuckyLloyd

TheCitizen wrote: »

The proposals are confusing and all over the place. It proposes a closed shop but then also talks about relegation for bottom two clubs and qualifiers for those spots the following season.

Appears to be set up to suit a handful of clubs like Juve, PSG and Bayern who dominate their own leagues but don't get the revenue from that that they get in the EPL for example, I have no idea why the rest of the clubs would support that.

A European super league is going to happen. It's what the big clubs want, it's what the market across the world demands. Starting it via the CL is the best way to go about it.

charolais0153

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

A European super league is going to happen. It's what the big clubs want, it's what the market across the world demands. Starting it via the CL is the best way to go about it.

No. If your playing the likes of madrid every week. The novelty soon wears off. The rareness of these big knockout games is what makes it special.
Champions league is perfect in the current format imo

LuckyLloyd

charolais0153 wrote: »

No. If your playing the likes of madrid every week. The novelty soon wears off. The rareness of these big knockout games is what makes it special.
Champions league is perfect in the current format imo

The market will eventually override personal opinions. It's merely a matter of time. The clubs and fans most discommoded by the changes won't matter when it comes down to it.

yourdeadwright

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

A European super league is going to happen. It's what the big clubs want, it's what the market across the world demands. Starting it via the CL is the best way to go about it.

I don't think it will ever happen ,I think it would in the long run cost the big tames money ,

I also think they will continue to use the threat of it to get what they want domestically and from the Uefa

Johner

I fancy Spurs to win tonight and Liverpool to win fairly handy.

NIMAN

charolais0153 wrote: »

No. If your playing the likes of madrid every week. The novelty soon wears off. The rareness of these big knockout games is what makes it special.
Champions league is perfect in the current format imo

Agree.

It even happens in the CL at times where the same teams seemed to get drawn together every 2nd year. It was common for a while.

What happens in 10 or 15 years when we are so used to all the big teams playing every week?

Invite Boca, Flamengo, River Plate, Colo Colo etc?

charolais0153

NIMAN wrote: »

Agree.

It even happens in the CL at times where the same teams seemed to get drawn together every 2nd year. It was common for a while.

What happens in 10 or 15 years when we are so used to all the big teams playing every week?

Invite Boca, Flamengo, River Plate, Colo Colo etc?

Bayern vs real madrid, chelsea vs liverpool a few years ago, even liverpool and porto again

yourdeadwright

[
Invite Boca, Flamengo, River Plate, Colo Colo etc?[/QUOTE]

You can't expect teams to be flying midweek to south America for god sake,

IncognitoMan

It also poses the problem of big clubs being considered big because they have a history of success in their domestic leagues.

What happens in a super league if United, Bayern, Juve etc.. go years without any success. If its just a league dominated by Barca and Real.

Are they still considered big or do they just become the Fulham of the super league?

It's not in most of those clubs interest to leave their domestic leagues behind. It's very very risky.

Fitz*

English & Italian teams will not support a super league. It won't happen.


I predict Liverpool to win tonight, and continue their run of never losing a 2 leg knockout European tie under Jurgen Klopp.

I hope City batter Spurs.....just so Spurs can get their revenge in the league game coming up!