Waterford GAA thread - mod warning post #1 and #51

Motivator

Sunday looks to be a real watershed moment for Waterford hurling. People around the county are not happy one bit and for the first time I think the blame is being pointed at everyone. Years ago it was the players fault, or the manager or the county board but I’ve never seen the entire set up from top to bottom receive such criticism.

We’ve had bad beatings before and we’ll get them again but the manner of defeat is what has shocked and honestly disgusted a lot of people and the fallout from Sunday is showing no signs of letting up. I fear the worst is yet to come and I honestly don’t know what will happen if we get another hiding on Saturday evening.

Whoever people attribute the blame to, the bottom line is this is a very sad situation for all concerned and there are nor will there be any winners when all this eventually subsides.

Jjjjjjjjbarry

Really looking forward to seeing the team for Saturday. Should be interesting. Will it be named tomorrow as it’s a Sat game? May as well just enjoy the experience and trip to Cork. Déise Abú! (Trying to be positive)

_blaaz

Jjjjjjjjbarry wrote: »

Really looking forward to seeing the team for Saturday. Should be interesting. Will it be named tomorrow as it’s a Sat game? May as well just enjoy the experience and trip to Cork. Déise Abú! (Trying to be positive)

Tbh i havnt missed a championship.game when living in ireland in over 20 years and very few away league games...seen a fair few hammerings too


I cant see any reason to justify going down to cork sat night....why waste money and time going,if they cant be arsed to put in the effort,.....way im feeling now,idk would i even bother to attend a match again next year

liogairmhordain

_blaaz wrote: »

I cant see any reason to justify going down to cork sat night....why waste money and time going,if they cant be arsed to put in the effort,.....way im feeling now,idk would i even bother to attend a match again next year

There's always reasons to go.

First and foremost to see who fronts up after the debacle last Sunday (and against Tipp which wasn't a whole lot better). There's a chance that we'll see the same lack of effort again, in which case we might as well be there for the death of Waterford hurling.

Second of all it'll be six months until our next match and 11+ months until our next championship match. (Whether in the Liam McCarthy or Joe McDonagh cup).

Third of all to see how lads who haven't played a whole lot for the county, but who we are going to need in years to come, get on up against Pat Horgan, Seamus Harnedy, Mark Coleman etc etc. Not to mention the minors, 2 or 3 of whom look to me that like serious hurlers who'll play many years for us at senior.

Fourth of all there's a fair chance that we'll never again get a chance to see some of these lads play for Waterford again. Walsh and Moran especially. No point in revisiting the tributes to Walsh again after last year. Word is that Moran is thinking of retirement - he had a shocker last Sunday but he's been magnificent for us over the years since 2006. His point at the end of normal time against Kilkenny in 2013 will never be forgotten. His goal against Galway in the all-Ireland final dragged us back into a game that looked like it might turn into a repeat of 2008.

Fifth of all there's a tiny minuscule 1% chance that we might beat Cork in their own back yard in a game they have to win. In which case there'll be thousands of Waterford people claiming to have been there in years to come.

puzl

I'm going on Saturday because in the immortal words of John Mullane "I love me county".

farmerval

Just a thought here but does the current championship really mitigate against a team going badly.
Waterford look to be in disarray right now but the current setup of matches on top of each other is really highlighting the problems. Under previous set ups one loss or two if in a backdoor and the year is over. in this one the agony lingers on and on.
Most counties have had bad year(s) but before it was over quickly and there was time for things hopefully to improve in the background before building for the following year.

redlead

I don't know how anyone could travel down to Cork after the complete lack of respect for the jersey, supporters and management that was shown last week. As the saying goes fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

Jerry Atrick

Pressure is totally off the lads now, even a half decent showing is going to be well received after the last two games. Think we'll motor well for 45/50 mins and Cork will pull away.

bemmet

Waterford are playing . It’s munster championship and I will be there.
The best sign that can be sent to this team right now is that county is county and whatever the obstacles you do what you can do to drive on.

I am not there to support an atrocious neandetheral county board . I am there to support my county and hope that we can deliver a performance which demonstrates the potential that exists within the squad and with those who carry on into next year to be joined by more newcomers to assault 2020 and beyond.

We also I fear need new management. Nice guy he may but his ship unfortunately is holed too significantly to carry on over the closed season and into a new year. The confidence has gone and the belief is parked in his case. A man of honour and a man of huge effort no doubt however change is so obviously needed.

And lastly I will be there to thank Brick and perhaps one or two others who delivered us both great days and great hope.

killbillvol2

Well I'll be in Cork as a few of us decided to make a weekend of it when the draw came out. We'll have a fair few scoops before the game to ease the pain.

On the point re falling support since 2008, it was unfortunate that the appalling all Ireland final result coincided with the recession biting hard.
Most people had to cut back significantly in some area and taking a family to a Munster Championship game was an obvious cutback. It wasn't even a choice for a lot of people, they absolutely couldn't afford it.
I cut out some significant expenses from my life over that time and I've never gone back to most of them. You manage without or get out of the habit. There's almost a generation that haven't been brought to games as kids and a huge number of adults who've fallen out of the habit.
Watching the fare over the last few years won't encourage them back or develop any first time supporters. A full generation will be lost if things continue as they are.

Road-Hog

killbillvol2 wrote: »

Well I'll be in Cork as a few of us decided to make a weekend of it when the draw came out. We'll have a fair few scoops before the game to ease the pain.

On the point re falling support since 2008, it was unfortunate that the appalling all Ireland final result coincided with the recession biting hard.
Most people had to cut back significantly in some area and taking a family to a Munster Championship game was an obvious cutback. It wasn't even a choice for a lot of people, they absolutely couldn't afford it.
I cut out some significant expenses from my life over that time and I've never gone back to most of them. You manage without or get out of the habit. There's almost a generation that haven't been brought to games as kids and a huge number of adults who've fallen out of the habit.
Watching the fare over the last few years won't encourage them back or develop any first time supporters. A full generation will be lost if things continue as they are.

If the ‘banner’ hadn’t of gotten that win in 2013 would they plus supporters be in a similar position......after last Sunday they are not a whole lot better than us. The game v limerick coming up will confirm/define their season. Still think we have every bit as good forwards as Lehane and harnedy....despite being slated for saying so by a few posters above....!

Nonoperational

Road-Hog wrote: »

If the ‘banner’ hadn’t of gotten that win in 2013 would they plus supporters be in a similar position......after last Sunday they are not a whole lot better than us. The game v limerick coming up will confirm/define their season. Still think we have every bit as good forwards as Lehane and harnedy....despite being slated for saying so by a few posters above....!

Cork have scored 4 points more in 2 games than Waterford have in 3. The lack of forwards is absolutely killing ye. Has for many years.

Fred C Dobbs

Would love to see more of the younger players playing on Saturday - unlikely but only God knows what sort of the team will be selected or even who is going to pick the team.

Could be a bloodbath or else they play with such abandon that they surprise everyone.

Wonder how Cork are mentally preparing for this one .... maybe a bit a freaked out by the possibility of seemingly picking up two easy points and improving their points difference.

_blaaz

Fred C Dobbs wrote: »

Would love to see more of the younger players playing on Saturday - unlikely but only God knows what sort of the team will be selected or even who is going to pick the team.

Could be a bloodbath or else they play with such abandon that they surprise everyone.

This is pretty much what happened againest tipp last year in limerick

mountgomery burns

I'm not heading down on Saturday but have a season ticket so anyone who wants it PM me. Will send it free of charge.

First come first serve.

Motivator

Nonoperational wrote: »

Cork have scored 4 points more in 2 games than Waterford have in 3. The lack of forwards is absolutely killing ye. Has for many years.

7 players have started in the full forward line in our three games. Their return? 0-5 from play. We’ve also had only one shot in three games, no opposition goalkeeper has had to make a save.

Ropaire

killbillvol2 wrote: »

Well I'll be in Cork as a few of us decided to make a weekend of it when the draw came out. We'll have a fair few scoops before the game to ease the pain.

On the point re falling support since 2008, it was unfortunate that the appalling all Ireland final result coincided with the recession biting hard.
Most people had to cut back significantly in some area and taking a family to a Munster Championship game was an obvious cutback. It wasn't even a choice for a lot of people, they absolutely couldn't afford it.
I cut out some significant expenses from my life over that time and I've never gone back to most of them. You manage without or get out of the habit. There's almost a generation that haven't been brought to games as kids and a huge number of adults who've fallen out of the habit.
Watching the fare over the last few years won't encourage them back or develop any first time supporters. A full generation will be lost if things continue as they are.

I grew up in the 90s and used to love going to games with my father, cousins and uncles, they'd bring a paint tin for me to stand on in the terrace full of crisps and random crap to eat and pass it off as a lunchbox which was fn comical stuff. They're the kind of lads who'd scream their lungs out for the entire game and get lads around them going as well, and they'd lift me up to wave the auld flag any time we scored, it was fn epic and some of the best memories of my childhood. The colour and noise was amazing like. They stopped going when we stretched a bit and truth be told they probably couldn't afford it as you say. Ticket prices are creeping up all the time too like, it's a fn expensive day out if yer hauling a rake of kids with you and feeding them for the day.

Having said that, the support in Walsh Park was as poor as the hurling on the pitch from us this year, a missing generation has forgotten how to support that team. Crying shame that kids these days won't get the same atmosphere and craic at a game.

Jjjjjjjjbarry

I normally walk up to Pairc Ui Chaoimh from the city but as it's a Saturday evening it'll probably be mental for parking and car parks might close early so I'd say I'd be better off going in by Blackrock / Cork Constitution? They still do match day parking?

Stacksofwacks

Motivator wrote: »

7 players have started in the full forward line in our three games. Their return? 0-5 from play. We’ve also had only one shot in three games, no opposition goalkeeper has had to make a save.

That's a shocking return. I don't get how some of these lads were scoring so freely underage but now can't hit a barn door. This group of players will not win an All Ireland. Not enough of them have stepped up to the plate. To give 3 performances as bad as the last 3 there is no coming back from. Its disappointing because there was so much potential there.

Ri na hEireann

Road-Hog wrote: »

Still think we have every bit as good forwards as Lehane and harnedy....despite being slated for saying so by a few posters above....!

Name one Waterford forward better than either of those players? You’re welcome to your opinion but it’s not based on any evidence.

paddy13

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

That's a shocking return. I don't get how some of these lads were scoring so freely underage but now can't hit a barn door. This group of players will not win an All Ireland. Not enough of them have stepped up to the plate. To give 3 performances as bad as the last 3 there is no coming back from. Its disappointing because there was so much potential there.

I am unfortunately starting to agree with this. I think if the lads were going to make at Senior level they should be showing it. Next year is going to be massive if they will all be still around as they won't have Brick (and maybe Moran) to depend on to lead them.
Not one of them this year has shown leadership qualities.

Stacksofwacks

paddy13 wrote: »

I am unfortunately starting to agree with this. I think if the lads were going to make at Senior level they should be showing it. Next year is going to be massive if they will all be still around as they won't have Brick (and maybe Moran) to depend on to lead them.
Not one of them this year has shown leadership qualities.

If look back to the AI semi finals in 16 and 17 it was Brick and Moran leading the charge mainly, doing most of the dirty work with occasional brilliance from Austin and Barron. I dont want to give up these guys completely but i think their true colors have been shown. We badly need a few more good minor and U21's coming through because i dont think its going to happen with these guys.

Mastermcgrath

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

If look back to the AI semi finals in 16 and 17 it was Brick and Moran leading the charge mainly, doing most of the dirty work with occasional brilliance from Austin and Barron. I dont want to give up these guys completely but i think their true colors have been shown. We badly need a few more good minor and U21's coming through because i dont think its going to happen with these guys.

Agreed. Every top side needs a marquee forward that gives them that x-factor, I'm talking a Seamus Callinan, Pat Horgan, Joe Canning, Tony Kelly or TJ Reid. We have no one in that calibre. It looked like Patrick Curran and Stephen Bennett could potentially reach that level in their underage days but hasn't proven to be the case.

Therustynail

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

I think Derek mc Grath would be still there ,so know he didn't think he'd taken them as far as he can ,you keep banging on about how many scores we get and the terrible forwards .in the Clare and tipp games we scored 40 points ,the backs are well and truely the problem ,poor everywhere ( ball winning ,distribution, slow getting the ball up the field,loosing possession way to easy )and when it eventually arrives in the forward line we are marked out of it .the positioning of AG is terrible .the absolute blind confidence in TDB is amazing ,(after his young player of the year he has disappointed the most , Philip Mahoney ,Conor Gleeson are not wing backs ,they're sticky but thats it .etc etc .too many fellas on the panel with years that have not progressed at all , need a serious clean out .mc Nulty,DFives,O'Brien, DJ,Brick,K Moran, etc etc in my eyes any forward deserves another chance to prove themselves in a team that actually wants to play them , as alluded to earlier the management team is horrendous .not sure if any of them has ever coached a winning team at any age group .of course I'm open to correction on that one

I really think your username sums you up well. If you are going to clear out the players mentioned above , who do you replace them with? You really think we have players of the caliber of D Fives & K Moran across the county undiscovered? Our scoring average is by far the lowest of any of the Munster teams to date and probably less than most tier 2 counties.

hurler on de ditch

Therustynail wrote: »

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

I think Derek mc Grath would be still there ,so know he didn't think he'd taken them as far as he can ,you keep banging on about how many scores we get and the terrible forwards .in the Clare and tipp games we scored 40 points ,the backs are well and truely the problem ,poor everywhere ( ball winning ,distribution, slow getting the ball up the field,loosing possession way to easy )and when it eventually arrives in the forward line we are marked out of it .the positioning of AG is terrible .the absolute blind confidence in TDB is amazing ,(after his young player of the year he has disappointed the most , Philip Mahoney ,Conor Gleeson are not wing backs ,they're sticky but thats it .etc etc .too many fellas on the panel with years that have not progressed at all , need a serious clean out .mc Nulty,DFives,O'Brien, DJ,Brick,K Moran, etc etc in my eyes any forward deserves another chance to prove themselves in a team that actually wants to play them , as alluded to earlier the management team is horrendous .not sure if any of them has ever coached a winning team at any age group .of course I'm open to correction on that one

I really think your username sums you up well. If you are going to clear out the players mentioned above , who do you replace them with? You really think we have players of the caliber of D Fives & K Moran across the county undiscovered? Our scoring average is by far the lowest of any of the Munster teams to date and probably less than most tier 2 counties.

everyone keeps banging on about our scoring ,just remind me what Moran or Fives have contributed these last few years .and would they even survived in any top county , I'll wait for an answer, ,just what kind of calibre player is D,Fives

hurler on de ditch

Ri na hEireann wrote: »

Road-Hog wrote: »

Still think we have every bit as good forwards as Lehane and harnedy....despite being slated for saying so by a few posters above....!

Name one Waterford forward better than either of those players? You’re welcome to your opinion but it’s not based on any evidence.

Name any Waterford player in any position better than a cork player ,evidence based of course

hurler on de ditch

Therustynail wrote: »

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

I think Derek mc Grath would be still there ,so know he didn't think he'd taken them as far as he can ,you keep banging on about how many scores we get and the terrible forwards .in the Clare and tipp games we scored 40 points ,the backs are well and truely the problem ,poor everywhere ( ball winning ,distribution, slow getting the ball up the field,loosing possession way to easy )and when it eventually arrives in the forward line we are marked out of it .the positioning of AG is terrible .the absolute blind confidence in TDB is amazing ,(after his young player of the year he has disappointed the most , Philip Mahoney ,Conor Gleeson are not wing backs ,they're sticky but thats it .etc etc .too many fellas on the panel with years that have not progressed at all , need a serious clean out .mc Nulty,DFives,O'Brien, DJ,Brick,K Moran, etc etc in my eyes any forward deserves another chance to prove themselves in a team that actually wants to play them , as alluded to earlier the management team is horrendous .not sure if any of them has ever coached a winning team at any age group .of course I'm open to correction on that one

I really think your username sums you up well. If you are going to clear out the players mentioned above , who do you replace them with? You really think we have players of the caliber of D Fives & K Moran across the county undiscovered? Our scoring average is by far the lowest of any of the Munster teams to date and probably less than most tier 2 counties.

Just when we're on the whole username thing , exactly what is a rusty nail good for ?

blueflame

I finally got the courage up to rewatch the recording of the game last night. First thing i can say is that for the first 15 minutes, and this had little or nothing to do with the wind advantage from what i could see, we were well on top, but two things happened. We started shooting wide after wide, and then Limerick got their goal, and we just collapsed from there. Lads started sulking, picking wrong options and stopped challenging. The amount of times a Limerick Player waltzed between three Waterford players without one of them laying a glove on them was unreal, whereas everytime we got a ball we were punch drunk from the hits that came in. Limerick looked to exploit the space and move the ball quickly, while we repreatedly carried the ball into serious traffic. I would say it was down to strength & conditioning and fitness were it not for the performance of Prunty, Prendergast and Lyons who more than held their own. Literally we did not want it badly enough, we did not show near enough controlled aggression, we coughed up the ball way to easily and did not play as a team. This is down to players attitudes and management planning and selection.

Stephen Bennett and Tommy Ryan looked dangerous when they received decent ball, but this was a major problem. The quality of ball into our forwards early was decent, but after that it was dreadful with about 90% of it being long high balls from 90 yards plus where the defenders had time and numbers to just crowd us out. I said it in a previous post and I will say it again, a full forward line of Patrick Horgan, Henry Shefflin and Seamus Callinan would have struggled to get scores last Sunday with the way we played. Do not judge our young lads lads yet until we sort out how to get decent ball into them.

On that note Aussie has to be tried at Centre Back, for three reasons:

1. He is not comfortable as a forward he drifts in and out of games, and he is much more comfortable facing the ball, where he is as capable of scoring as much from centre back as he is from centre forward. More importantly his passing ability and quality of delivery is top quality and he also has the pace to make space for himself.

2. As a forward he has one good game in about six and we live in dream of this good game and persist with him there. This is no where near consistent enough to justify his selection there. He is only being played half forward to win ball, we can work on better puck out strategies or look at other options. He is not winning near enough ball to justiy this.

3. DeBurca while being a top quality defender does not pose any real threat in possession, his selection and deliver are quite poor and gets bottled up quite easily. He has spent two much time as a free sweeper and needs to relearn his game.

On the other hand Maurice is not a Full Forward, he does not have the touch or speed of turn for a full forward, he does not like the confines of the square and certainly does not like the extra close attention that full backs give full forwards. He could however be quite a useful wing forward - where he was named last Sunday - where is likely to be more one on one and has more space to roam. He is also it would appear a much better impact player than starter.

Looking to rebuilding, whether it is under Fanning or a new manager, we need to look at more change, look at what the three new comers have brought to the team . my preferable team for league next year with an eye on the championship would be :

Billy Nolan

C. Lyons, C. Prunty, Eddie Hayden ( Ballygunner)

S Keating, A. Gleeson, T DeBurca

J. Barron Shane Bennett

J Prendergast Pauric Mahony Colm Roche

D Lyons Stephen Bennett Patrick Curran

Eddie Hayden for me was probably the best corner back on view in the Club Championship last year and when it came to Munster Club, he was outstanding for Ballygunner. In fact his loss to injury at half time against Shamrocks was a savage blow for Ballygunner, and coudl for me have been the difference in the final result. Fergal Hartley expressed this view in his after match analysis also. I think he is really worth having a look at.

I think Darragh Lyons is a really crafty and aggressive hurler, lacks a little bit of height, but is well capable of scoring. He is very brave and has that defenders mentalilty for hard work - he won't give opposing corner backs an easy exit either.

Colm Roche is a strong aggressive hurler who showed well as a wing back when played there but has also shown up really well in the forwards over the years and we know he is capable of scoring. Think he would also be a very hard worker not giving up anything soft to his opposing marker. Could equally swap him with Shane Bennett.

Seamus Keating impressed me seriously whenever he has played for the county, strong and aggressive and we need to start looking for young replacements for Philip Mahony, Darragh Fives and Kevin Moran.

I would also seriously consider the possibility of swapping DeBurca with Prunty. Problem is Prunty is settling in well at full back but honestly I feel deBurca is more than capable of playing in that position and would suit the tight marking role he played at under age. he spent a lot of time in our square under Derek anyway. Prunty at wing back with his speed, aggression, height and directness is something I would love to see. Worth a gamble in the league anyone?

This team also leaves a lot of other lads not mentioned above on the line, such as Socks, Noellie Connors, Shane McNulty, Shane Fives, Conor Gleeson, Kieran Bennett , Maurice Shanahan, Tommy Ryan, Michael Kearney, DJ Foran , Jordan Henley, Colin Dunford, Brian O'Halloran all having to stand up and fight for their place come Championship


I honestly believe looking at this panel of players, and others that could be added also (Paudie Prendergast, Michael Harney and Wilie Hassey are two that spring to mind) we should be capable of competing on an even footing with the best out there, particularly if we get our Fitness and Attitude right.

Time to be progressive, time to be brave and to look forward not backwards

JesusRef

blueflame wrote: »

I finally got the courage up to rewatch the recording of the game last night. First thing i can say is that for the first 15 minutes, and this had little or nothing to do with the wind advantage from what i could see, we were well on top, but two things happened. We started shooting wide after wide, and then Limerick got their goal, and we just collapsed from there. Lads started sulking, picking wrong options and stopped challenging. The amount of times a Limerick Player waltzed between three Waterford players without one of them laying a glove on them was unreal, whereas everytime we got a ball we were punch drunk from the hits that came in. Limerick looked to exploit the space and move the ball quickly, while we repreatedly carried the ball into serious traffic. I would say it was down to strength & conditioning and fitness were it not for the performance of Prunty, Prendergast and Lyons who more than held their own. Literally we did not want it badly enough, we did not show near enough controlled aggression, we coughed up the ball way to easily and did not play as a team. This is down to players attitudes and management planning and selection.

Stephen Bennett and Tommy Ryan looked dangerous when they received decent ball, but this was a major problem. The quality of ball into our forwards early was decent, but after that it was dreadful with about 90% of it being long high balls from 90 yards plus where the defenders had time and numbers to just crowd us out. I said it in a previous post and I will say it again, a full forward line of Patrick Horgan, Henry Shefflin and Seamus Callinan would have struggled to get scores last Sunday with the way we played. Do not judge our young lads lads yet until we sort out how to get decent ball into them.

On that note Aussie has to be tried at Centre Back, for three reasons:

1. He is not comfortable as a forward he drifts in and out of games, and he is much more comfortable facing the ball, where he is as capable of scoring as much from centre back as he is from centre forward. More importantly his passing ability and quality of delivery is top quality and he also has the pace to make space for himself.

2. As a forward he has one good game in about six and we live in dream of this good game and persist with him there. This is no where near consistent enough to justify his selection there. He is only being played half forward to win ball, we can work on better puck out strategies or look at other options. He is not winning near enough ball to justiy this.

3. DeBurca while being a top quality defender does not pose any real threat in possession, his selection and deliver are quite poor and gets bottled up quite easily. He has spent two much time as a free sweeper and needs to relearn his game.

On the other hand Maurice is not a Full Forward, he does not have the touch or speed of turn for a full forward, he does not like the confines of the square and certainly does not like the extra close attention that full backs give full forwards. He could however be quite a useful wing forward - where he was named last Sunday - where is likely to be more one on one and has more space to roam. He is also it would appear a much better impact player than starter.

Looking to rebuilding, whether it is under Fanning or a new manager, we need to look at more change, look at what the three new comers have brought to the team . my preferable team for league next year with an eye on the championship would be :

Billy Nolan

C. Lyons, C. Prunty, Eddie Hayden ( Ballygunner)

S Keating, A. Gleeson, T DeBurca

J. Barron Shane Bennett

J Prendergast Pauric Mahony Colm Roche

D Lyons Stephen Bennett Patrick Curran

Eddie Hayden for me was probably the best corner back on view in the Club Championship last year and when it came to Munster Club, he was outstanding for Ballygunner. In fact his loss to injury at half time against Shamrocks was a savage blow for Ballygunner, and coudl for me have been the difference in the final result. Fergal Hartley expressed this view in his after match analysis also. I think he is really worth having a look at.

I think Darragh Lyons is a really crafty and aggressive hurler, lacks a little bit of height, but is well capable of scoring. He is very brave and has that defenders mentalilty for hard work - he won't give opposing corner backs an easy exit either.

Colm Roche is a strong aggressive hurler who showed well as a wing back when played there but has also shown up really well in the forwards over the years and we know he is capable of scoring. Think he would also be a very hard worker not giving up anything soft to his opposing marker. Could equally swap him with Shane Bennett.

Seamus Keating impressed me seriously whenever he has played for the county, strong and aggressive and we need to start looking for young replacements for Philip Mahony, Darragh Fives and Kevin Moran.

I would also seriously consider the possibility of swapping DeBurca with Prunty. Problem is Prunty is settling in well at full back but honestly I feel deBurca is more than capable of playing in that position and would suit the tight marking role he played at under age. he spent a lot of time in our square under Derek anyway. Prunty at wing back with his speed, aggression, height and directness is something I would love to see. Worth a gamble in the league anyone?

This team also leaves a lot of other lads not mentioned above on the line, such as Socks, Noellie Connors, Shane McNulty, Shane Fives, Conor Gleeson, Kieran Bennett , Maurice Shanahan, Tommy Ryan, Michael Kearney, DJ Foran , Jordan Henley, Colin Dunford, Brian O'Halloran all having to stand up and fight for their place come Championship


I honestly believe looking at this panel of players, and others that could be added also (Paudie Prendergast, Michael Harney and Wilie Hassey are two that spring to mind) we should be capable of competing on an even footing with the best out there, particularly if we get our Fitness and Attitude right.

Time to be progressive, time to be brave and to look forward not backwards

Thinking about the post above I hope it is a case that the batch of players from U21 of 2016 just haven't been given a proper opportunity to prove themselves yet.

I would agree with a lot of your team, Nolan has a very accurate puck out, something I think is lacking now.

Austin isn't a kid anymore - give him his shot at CB - what's to f*coming lose at this stage.

Full forward is there a big man we can put in there (Lucey, Montgomery?) Devine is a big loss there.

Ropaire

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

Just when we're on the whole username thing , exactly what is a rusty nail good for ?

If they're just starting to rust they get a better grip than a fresh one lad.

Jjjjjjjjbarry

https://www.offtheball.com/hurling/paraic-fanning-ger-loughnane-867523

Ger Loughnane not holding back.

PTH2009

Fanning has no intention of stepping down I imagine

Jjjjjjjjbarry

I’d be surprised if he didn’t. I’m sure he has our best interests at heart and if he feels he can’t bring us on then he’ll step aside. It’s not like he’s on a big contract like Jose Mourinho or maybe I’m too innocent!

PTH2009

Jjjjjjjjbarry wrote: »

I’d be surprised if he didn’t. I’m sure he has our best interests at heart and if he feels he can’t bring us on then he’ll step aside. It’s not like he’s on a big contract like Jose Mourinho or maybe I’m too innocent!

Hes stubborn too and his own pride is at stake. He could want another shot at it and it's up too the players who dislike the regime if they want too come back or not

Personally dont think he can bring us further and should go

Ropaire

PTH2009 wrote: »

Hes stubborn too and his own pride is at stake. He could want another shot at it and it's up too the players who dislike the regime if they want too come back or not

Personally dont think he can bring us further and should go

Hard to know what he's really able to get out of them when they don't seem interested in playing for him. It's easier to replace 1 manager than 30 players though so if push comes to shove the CB will give him the bullet.

PTH2009

Ropaire wrote: »

Hard to know what he's really able to get out of them when they don't seem interested in playing for him. It's easier to replace 1 manager than 30 players though so if push comes to shove the CB will give him the bullet.

At the end of the day its the Waterford CB so anything can happen really ha

Deisegodeo

Local rumour mill has Henry sheflin linked to the job...

Just said I'd post 1 of the few positive rumours doing the rounds! Doom and gloom around here lately!

_blaaz

PTH2009 wrote: »

Hes stubborn too and his own pride is at stake. He could want another shot at it and it's up too the players who dislike the regime if they want too come back or not

Personally dont think he can bring us further and should go

Tbh ive heard he had to be talked into staying on after last matcb dressing room.bustup

Stacksofwacks

Gotta love Loughnane, others would tiptoe around a subject but he just comes right out and says what everyone's thinking...

If Fanning wants a second year then he needs to explain exactly whats gone wrong and what he plans to do to fix it. Name names if need be. Derek got rid of a load of players after his first year and said openly that he was going to change how we were going to play. You may not have agreed with it but at least he had a plan.

Stopitwillya

Motivator wrote: »

Nonoperational wrote: »

Cork have scored 4 points more in 2 games than Waterford have in 3. The lack of forwards is absolutely killing ye. Has for many years.

7 players have started in the full forward line in our three games. Their return? 0-5 from play. We’ve also had only one shot in three games, no opposition goalkeeper has had to make a save.

Starting in the full forward line but playing as extra midfielders.
Having said that we have had chances. Stephen Bennett should have had goals against both Clare and Limerick and Patrick Curran against tipp. Tactics are a big part of what's making our forwards look so poor.

hurler on de ditch

Stopitwillya wrote: »

Motivator wrote: »

Nonoperational wrote: »

Cork have scored 4 points more in 2 games than Waterford have in 3. The lack of forwards is absolutely killing ye. Has for many years.

7 players have started in the full forward line in our three games. Their return? 0-5 from play. We’ve also had only one shot in three games, no opposition goalkeeper has had to make a save.

Starting in the full forward line but playing as extra midfielders.
Having said that we have had chances. Stephen Bennett should have had goals against both Clare and Limerick and Patrick Curran against tipp. Tactics are a big part of what's making our forwards look so poor.

Stopitwillya

Ian OB

I suppose the team will be announced tomorrow evening so

Spatters

Stopitwillya wrote: »

Starting in the full forward line but playing as extra midfielders.
Having said that we have had chances. Stephen Bennett should have had goals against both Clare and Limerick and Patrick Curran against tipp. Tactics are a big part of what's making our forwards look so poor.

Lack of workrate is what is making our forwards so poor.
Lack of intensity and pride in the jersey.
I agree with you about the goals, Bennett’s ‘not doing the basics right’ i.e. catch the ball & put the ball in the net has nothing to do tactics or mgmt. players responsibility is key here.
I’ve never seen it as bad and if the players think they’re showing up the mgmt , they are sadly mistaken they are putting themselves under pressure, dishonoring the jersey and shortening their own careers.
Apologies for the rant but I can’t believe its come to this. Hopefully we’ll put in a performance on Sat worthy of that jersey.
#don’tstopbelieving

Giveitfong

The result of last Sunday’s game against Limerick, and the manner of it, has generated an unprecedented response on this thread, made up mainly of a combination of consternation, anger, condemnation (of players, manager and the county board) and fatalism. There was nothing like the same response to the corresponding game last year which was very similar in terms of both performance and result. Waterford eventually lost by 13 points (2-26 to 1-16), but it could well have been as big as last Sunday’s 20 point margin. Limerick had the same 13-point lead at half-time (2-14 to 0-7), but eased off in the second half, giving five substitutes a run, with the game in the bag, from the 50th minute on.

My analysis of that game, posted here, could be reproduced, in large measure, as an analysis of last Sunday’s debacle. Last year I began by suggesting that Waterford had been able to achieve a good level of success, despite Derek McGrath’s tactical ineptitude, due to the team’s high level of skill and commitment. However, on those occasions where the required level of player commitment had not been forthcoming, Waterford had been whipped by teams which combine application with good skills and game plans. This is what happened against Limerick last year and last Sunday.

Regarding last year’s game I wrote that there was no evidence of any preparation on Waterford’s part for the kind of game Limerick play. Limerick were “much better organised and coached. Add in their much higher level of alertness and work rate and Waterford never had a chance. At times it looked as though Limerick had 18 players on the pitch. Every time a Waterford player got the ball he was immediately surrounded by three Limerick players. By contrast, every time a Limerick player got the ball he always had at least two loose players available to take a pass.”

We saw a carbon copy of this last Sunday. And, like last year, Waterford’s only tactic was to rain long balls down on the Limerick defence where they were normally returned with interest. Of 17 first half puckouts last Sunday, 12 were hit long and Waterford won just three of these. In the 20th and 26th minutes Stephen O’Keeffe sent long balls into the Limerick goal area. On both occasions Maurice Shanahan and Tommy Ryan were the only Waterford players in the dropping zone. Also on both occasions no less than five Limerick players converged on the dropping zone. Not surprisingly, Limerick gained possession and immediately started the passing movements which ripped Waterford to shreds, just the same as happened last year.

As was the case last Sunday, Waterford went into last year’s game needing a result to stay in the competition. And like last Sunday, last year the Waterford team was flat while Limerick were highly motivated, worked like demons, gang tackled Waterford players in possession and turned over possession repeatedly. Their highly structured passing movements then put them into position to send quality ball into the full forwards.

There was no outrage last year at what was a similar display with a similar result. There may have been some sympathy with Waterford then because of the injuries that had blitzed them in the Clare game and the umpiring error which had denied them a win following a good display against Tipperary the previous week. Yet the fact is that Waterford failed to raise a gallop in what was their most important game of the year, just as was the case last Sunday.

I was fearful before the game that Waterford might be in for a hammering. This has been threatening for some time, as Waterford have struggled against teams of good skill, commitment and organisation. Dublin played them off the pitch in the first half and would have been out of sight by half time were it not for the fact that Waterford managed three goals, one a gift from Dublin. Dublin continued to dominate, despite playing against the wind, in the third quarter but, to their credit, Waterford lifted their game and could have stolen a win were it not for Stephen Bennett’s missed last-minute penalty.

In the following game against Galway in Walsh Park, Waterford played their best hurling of the year. My report on that game oozed with enthusiasm, based on the highly constructive game Waterford played, using stick passes to move the ball through the lines and then send good ball into the inside line. Unfortunately it proved to be a false dawn, as for some reason we never saw this approach subsequently. Incidentally, for those who have been rushing to write Kevin Moran off, he was outstanding in this game.

The game against Clare doesn’t count as Clare, knowing they would be returning to Walsh Park for the championship, made no real effort and Waterford won as they pleased. The first real signs of malaise came in the league semi-final, when Galway’s hard running and combined play constantly put the Waterford defence under severe pressure, whereas Waterford were playing very poorly. Then Galway imploded (as they did against Wexford more recently), hitting a series of terrible wides while Waterford, upping their game, snatched a very unlikely victory.

In the league final Waterford came up against opposition brimming with confidence and playing a brand of hurling of a different plane from Waterford’s. Again, against Clare, Waterford struggled against a better-organised team but still showed great fighting spirit to almost snatch a win at the end. In this game, and the games against Galway, Waterford did display a willingness to fight to the end, while their strong finishes in these three games tends to contradict those who are now saying that the team lacks fitness.

In the Tipperary game, Waterford again showed great fighting spirit in attempting to salvage the game, against the odds, in the third quarter but the goal which put a stop to their fightback seemed to knock the stuffing out of them. It seemed to dawn on them that, no matter what they did, given their own stone-age game plan, they hadn’t a hope against a team playing with great confidence and a far superior game plan. It seems to me that, given their previous two experiences against Limerick, they knew they were in for a hiding going into last Sunday’s game. You could see their lack of self-belief in their poor touch and sluggishness while Limerick, apart from their highly-effective style of play, were all fired up after their poor showing against Cork.

Writing on Thursday in the Irish Examiner, Ed Coughlan focused on the need for teams at this level to have at least a Plan B if their initial game plan is not working. You could hardly even call Waterford’s bombing of pointless ball down on the two-man full forward line a plan, but once it became apparent that it wasn’t working, they clearly had no fallback option. To quote from Coughlan’s article:

“No team can be naive enough to go into any game, even as hot favourites, without having a series of plays to go to in the event that things don’t go their way. The if/then-coaching conundrum is an often-ignored tool in a coach’s arsenal. The players will gain security and peace of mind going into a game if they feel they have many options to go to and many gears to go through. The opposite is a far more painful reality, when a player feels they have no answer to the problem the opposition have put in front of them, and worse still, no play to go to buy them some time to figure things out.”

It is easy to be critical of the Waterford players’ apparent lack of effort last Sunday, but I have sympathy for a set of players of high inherent quality who realise that, no matter how hard they try, they are going to be in trouble against highly-committed opposition composed of high-quality players who are way ahead in terms of structure and organisation.

Road-Hog

Excellent post above as usual....one question I would have though is between 2015 and 2018 what fundamentally changed with limerick. Prior to last year and this year we had never received such a hammering from them in my memory in any case. 2007 was a horrible experience in the semi but nothing like the beatings in the last two seasons. Is it purely down to commitment and organization which we have totally lost or did we in fact ever have it.

KevIRL

The Examiner reporting this morning that the CB are pressing ahead with Walsh Park redevelopment plans. A clear the air session was held at Fanning's request on Tuesday with the squad. Fanning is expected to stay on for the 2020 season

Fred C Dobbs

Giveitfong wrote: »

The result of last Sunday’s game against Limerick, and the manner of it, has generated an unprecedented response on this thread, made up mainly of a combination of consternation, anger, condemnation (of players, manager and the county board) and fatalism. There was nothing like the same response to the corresponding game last year which was very similar in terms of both performance and result. Waterford eventually lost by 13 points (2-26 to 1-16), but it could well have been as big as last Sunday’s 20 point margin. Limerick had the same 13-point lead at half-time (2-14 to 0-7), but eased off in the second half, giving five substitutes a run, with the game in the bag, from the 50th minute on.

As you said, Waterford had a spate of injuries last year in the corresponding fixture. But last year came on the back of a fighting performance the previous week (when robbed by that umpire). This time around, there were no injury concerns but the preceding performance against Tipp was woeful, even allowing for the sending off. Fair enough, management might be clueless but there was no excuse for the players downing tools after 15 minutes and not executing the basics of hurling (and for the indiscipline).

Fred C Dobbs

KevIRL wrote: »

The Examiner reporting this morning that the CB are pressing ahead with Walsh Park redevelopment plans. A clear the air session was held at Fanning's request on Tuesday with the squad. Fanning is expected to stay on for the 2020 season

How many 'clear the air sessions' are needed ....

KevIRL

Fred C Dobbs wrote: »

How many 'clear the air sessions' are needed ....

By all accounts a 'clear the head' session was probably needed on Tuesday.

bruschi

Looking in from the outside, I dont understand the longing for McGrath to come back in as has often been rumoured and he isnt exactly shying away from it himself. Fanning took over a team who were deeply ingrained in McGraths philosophy and it was always going to take time to train to a new plan. But more importantly, how did Waterford fare last year? 4 championship losses and relegated from the Div 1 league. And this was in his 5th year in charge. Thats a horrendous return. Statistically, it is worse than this year, yet people are calling for Fanning to go and would welcome McGrath back? In your 5th year in charge, after making an AI final, you really should be pushing on to be right back up there, not hitting rock bottom and being one of the worst ranked teams in the competitions.

Again, from the outside, this makes zero sense to me. And this years fortunes say an awful lot more about the players than the management. It was a no win situation for Fanning, taking over players who longed for their previous mentor is always a hard one for managers, but the players have done nothing to help their cause. At least if they put in the effort and commitment, they could point to the poor management or coaching or whatever. But now, with their utter abject showings, they have no one to blame other than themselves.

And to be honest, this all started with the initial farcical set up of appointing the manager after McGrath left. I'm sure many predicted this sort of outcome after that.