Waterford GAA thread - mod warning post #1 and #51

Mastermcgrath

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

The first one actually wouldnt surprise me, the second one would be strange as they had a good league and hadnt the towel thrown in by then I'd imagine. look they are amateurs at the end of the day and humans. Something is not right, if fanning is the issue then they should communicate that to the county board or say what it is exactly what/who they do want

I can tell you that previous posters rumours are absolute bull****

cul beag

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

To be brutally honest, he shouldn't have been anywhere near the panel the last 3 or 4 years. Its one of the major problems that we have in Waterford. Underage stars not translating to Senior and then left hanging around the panel for years in the hope they will produce eventually because there is no one better to replace them.

Plenty of fellas better than him to be honest. A loyal servant though and the best of luck to him.

upthedeise16

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

The All ireland minor semi final 2009 he scored 5 or 6 great points from play,think its on youtube. His goal against Clare the same year was a class one, soloed in from the halfway line. Ya he started against Tipp by Davy in 2010 but was taken off after 15 mins.

Reading Davy’s book, he compared him to Shane O’Donnell in 2013, starting a young lad but it didn’t work out for Brian due to the supply of ball he received compared to O’Donnell.
Any player who gave 10 years of their time to the jersey deserves respect, even if he wasn’t getting game time and picked up a lot of injuries, he didn’t drop off or give up which is a credit to him. I’d love to see him play football for a year or 2 as he is very talented with the big ball.
Best of luck to Brian.

TheScoringGoal

It wasn't his fault that injuries ruined him. His pace as a minor was incredible but he had a nightmare few years and when he did some back he just didn't have that pace any more.

blueflame

Best of Luck to Brian O'Halloran, seems a really nice lad and is a fine hurler, unfortunately for him I think all the injuries he suffered robbed him of that blistering pace he showed at Under Age that could have made all the difference. Persistent injuries beyond doubt hamper development and in Brian's case this was evident.

Brian's career path serves to show that brilliant minors and underage stars do not necessarily progress to senior star status, for a number of possible reasons. Despite all the public outcry in the media and on this site, our Under Age Structures have improved dramatically over the last 10 / 15 years, yes they could be much better but they are not the disaster everyone is talking about and have provided plenty of "raw material" for senior management to work with. Unfortunately this is where the "system" is seems has really started to break down. Of the long list of fine minor sides and potential stars we have produced culminating in our All Ireland Minor winning side, how many have really gone on to develop their game at senior level. Is all the time and expense put into the coaching of our senior team actually improving players or is it too focused on systems!!! Genuine question, not a targeted attack on anyone, but really has our players individual skill levels improved despite all this extra time and coaching? For me our touch and striking is quite poor, raising the question, is this being neglected totally for the sake of tactics and systems. An honest and frank discussion without personal vendettas would be nice

Pogue eile

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Anthony Daly doesn't like Waterford (justifiably) anyway, so why would be take them on now at a time where things look as bad as they've been in 23 years?

Well I mean from a cold analysis the absolute best time to take over a team is when they have hit rock bottom, there is only one way you can go really.

I wouldnt be rushing to appoint Daly though, a money man who talks the talk but at the end of the day have delivered fcuk all.

ArtVandelay76

Move along, nothing to see here.

https://www.wlrfm.com/2019/06/11/chairman-says-he-saw-no-sign-of-unrest-in-waterford-camp-during-championship/#

thesaturdayman

ArtVandelay76 wrote: »

Move along, nothing to see here.

https://www.wlrfm.com/2019/06/11/chairman-says-he-saw-no-sign-of-unrest-in-waterford-camp-during-championship/#

some laugh. you couldnt make it up.

puzl

PTH2009 wrote: »

Crazy rumours going round

The Tuesday before the Limerick game 14 players went on the piss instead of going training

In feb some players had booked a 2 week holiday for the end of june

Are these rumours coming from the same guy who told you minors were being drafted into seniors?

Because if they are then please stop posting them because you are just making the problem worse. Someone is feeding you complete bull****. You know, sometimes it is better to not pass the rumour on.

PhuckHugh22

ArtVandelay76 wrote: »

Move along, nothing to see here.

https://www.wlrfm.com/2019/06/11/chairman-says-he-saw-no-sign-of-unrest-in-waterford-camp-during-championship/#

Even if this is true which i highly doubt it is. Then it is pretty dissapointing if there is no "unrest" considering the gutless performances that we displayed the past few weeks.

Unrest would be a good thing that would initiate change.

SW1985

Stopitwillya wrote: »

Would love to see him managing Waterford. Would have a good philosophy about how the game should be played and is an inspirational character.
Would also like to see Paul Flynn involved. Everytime I read him in the news and Star his analysis is always very good. Trained lots of these lads at under 21.

I honestly dont get this stuff about "How the game should be played"

I idolise Ken but he spent all last year on about forgetting tactics and just attacking. Do you think that's going to compete with the likes of Limerick who have such a structured thought out approach?

Deisegodeo

Paddy joe mustn't have been watching the games as he seems to have missed what everyone else saw. Or maybe he doesn't consider players downing tools and simply not making any effort as unrest in the camp.

Either way, not a great sign of things to come for those who want change.

Road-Hog

SW1985 wrote: »

I honestly dont get this stuff about "How the game should be played"

I idolise Ken but he spent all last year on about forgetting tactics and just attacking. Do you think that's going to compete with the likes of Limerick who have such a structured thought out approach?

Is it possible that a seasoned inter county player such as Barron as an example can suddenly loose their touch/fielding ability etc over a period of 8 weeks......I could see it happening with fitness level but surely not with the skills and ability that players are born with and have developed from age 4/5 upwards....?

deiseach

ArtVandelay76 wrote: »

Move along, nothing to see here.

https://www.wlrfm.com/2019/06/11/chairman-says-he-saw-no-sign-of-unrest-in-waterford-camp-during-championship/#

For someone in a quasi-political role, he can be ridiculously thin-skinned.

willbeuptuesday

I spoke to our club delegate who was at the meeting last night, as far as Paddy Joe is concerned the only problem is with those on Social Media. They were challenged at the end of the county board meeting last night about having a look at the structures. They said that they were putting together a group to review everything, the group includes Fergal Hartley, Cyril Farrell, Michael Walsh(City council) and I forgot the fourth name, this only came up at the end when they were challenged, he was not sure if they intended to ask these people or were they already tasked with the job.

mountgomery burns

Anyone that's played any sport knows that when you are physically tired, that's when you make mistakes. The hardest thing in hurling is competing for the ball on the ground and winning it. Takes a lot out of you, and if physically you're not at the required level you'll see a quick decline in the sharpness of your skills.

There was a stark contrast between the conditioning of the Limerick hurlers and our own (in fairness I think they are the benchmark for everybody. But even that aside, Clare and Tipp seemed to me to be well ahead of us in this regard as well.

Especially on the Clare game, to me physical fitness is about who can recover quicker and burst themselves for the next ball. Seemed that Clare were winning a lot of these battles for most of the game, left Waterford in the game and almost paid the price when we found an aerial mismatch (at last) and played it straight and direct. But I don't think the mini comeback had anything to do with fitness levels and it was to me one of the biggest problems we seemed to have. Lack of physical presence and drive.

hardybuck

deiseach wrote: »

For someone in a quasi-political role, he can be ridiculously thin-skinned.

I think if Paddy, or if any of the officers, are feeling that they're not enjoying this anymore, or if the pressure is too much, well then I don't think anyone would criticise them for stepping down at this stage.

It's a voluntary position as he described, and they'd be thanked for their service if they decided to step away.

SW1985

Road-Hog wrote: »

Is it possible that a seasoned inter county player such as Barron as an example can suddenly loose their touch/fielding ability etc over a period of 8 weeks......I could see it happening with fitness level but surely not with the skills and ability that players are born with and have developed from age 4/5 upwards....?

Ah yeah. It's clear things arent right at all. They are failing in several areas that they used to be great at. Fitness, general sharpness and touch, getting men around the ball etc. Its like they've just abandoned any sort of plan or style of play.

It's been a shocking transformation in such a short time.

SW1985

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Anyone that's played any sport knows that when you are physically tired, that's when you make mistakes. The hardest thing in hurling is competing for the ball on the ground and winning it. Takes a lot out of you, and if physically you're not at the required level you'll see a quick decline in the sharpness of your skills.

There was a stark contrast between the conditioning of the Limerick hurlers and our own (in fairness I think they are the benchmark for everybody. But even that aside, Clare and Tipp seemed to me to be well ahead of us in this regard as well.

Especially on the Clare game, to me physical fitness is about who can recover quicker and burst themselves for the next ball. Seemed that Clare were winning a lot of these battles for most of the game, left Waterford in the game and almost paid the price when we found an aerial mismatch (at last) and played it straight and direct. But I don't think the mini comeback had anything to do with fitness levels and it was to me one of the biggest problems we seemed to have. Lack of physical presence and drive.

Fitness levels look poor this year.

We've also seemingly chosen to lose large areas of the field with our team selections. We've picked 6 forwards in some games with maybe only one having any physical presence or ball winning ability. So basically just went out expecting to lose any physical battles past the half back line. We've even managed to fit a lightweight forward in beside Barron in some of them.

Defending starts from the front. Limerick for example last year got more hooks and blocks from their forwards than their backs. Not only have we not done that but we seem to have picked as many lightweight hurlers as we can at times. That shows a complete lack of understanding of the demands of modern inter county hurling.

thesaturdayman

hardybuck wrote: »

I think if Paddy, or if any of the officers, are feeling that they're not enjoying this anymore, or if the pressure is too much, well then I don't think anyone would criticise them for stepping down at this stage.

It's a voluntary position as he described, and they'd be thanked for their service if they decided to step away.

voluntary?

nothing voluntary about any of the secretaries roles - county or divisional board nice salaried roles.

professionally paid, amateur in nature more like.

Furthermore, the cb did not come up with the proposed review committee. It was proposed from the floor. CB were against the idea!

hardybuck

thesaturdayman wrote: »

voluntary?

nothing voluntary about any of the secretaries roles - county or divisional board nice salaried roles.

professionally paid, amateur in nature more like.

Furthermore, the cb did not come up with the proposed review committee. It was proposed from the floor. CB were against the idea!

Paddy would be Chairman wouldn't he? Is Secretary Pat Flynn paid?

thesaturdayman

hardybuck wrote: »

Paddy would be Chairman wouldn't he? Is Secretary Pat Flynn paid?

PJR is indeed chairman - previously holding central / munster council roles. All very well expensed.

Waterford have a full time paid secretary circa 60k+ per year. The divisional secretaries are also paid by the divisional boards.

have many of the panel left for foreign soil? Prunty is off i believe? didnt hear of anyone else?

JesusRef

Anyone who watched Limerick and Clare last week and thinks we still downed tools are codding themselves.

Limerick are just a 10-15 points a better team than us, a lot of pain to come for teams from them over the next few years.

Gavlor

JesusRef wrote: »

Anyone who watched Limerick and Clare last week and thinks we still downed tools are codding themselves.

Limerick are just a 10-15 points a better team than us, a lot of pain to come for teams from them over the next few years.

We lost by 20.

Pogue eile

JesusRef wrote: »

Anyone who watched Limerick and Clare last week and thinks we still downed tools are codding themselves.

Limerick are just a 10-15 points a better team than us, a lot of pain to come for teams from them over the next few years.

I wouldnt be using Clare's parallel demise as a comfort to be honest.

JesusRef

Pogue eile wrote: »

I wouldnt be using Clare's parallel demise as a comfort to be honest.

No comfort to be found here, it's not a manager that's not up to it, it's not players throwing the toys out of the pram... It's a team that isn't good enough

Pogue eile

JesusRef wrote: »

No comfort to be found here, it's not a manager that's not up to it, it's not players throwing the toys out of the pram... It's a team that isn't good enough

Not from Waterford but I would respectfully suggest that it is a mixture of all 3, together with an incompetent County Board and throw in a historical divide within the county and the last few performances are what you are left with.

mountgomery burns

Pogue eile wrote: »

Not from Waterford but I would respectfully suggest that it is a mixture of all 3, together with an incompetent County Board and throw in a historical divide within the county and the last few performances are what you are left with.

Not sure about this historical divide business now to be honest with you. There is no rivalry worth talking about in the club championship at the moment, one team all dominating. A lot of the bitterness was between city clubs, but only Ballygunner has significant representation on the team. As many Lismore, Tourin, Fourmilewater, Dungarvan, Clashmore and Ballysaggart players have played as De La Salle and Mount Sion in this year's championship.

None of those clubs would have been prominent when club rivalries causing rifts at County level would have been at its worst, save maybe Lismore. Doesn't seem to influence Jack Prendergast all the same!

Stopitwillya

Didn't realise Eastern and Western board secretaries are paid. No need for east and west boards and they are holding the county back.
Pat Flynn has been a very poor county secretary. Time to look for someone from outside the county board clique whenever the next secretary job is being appointed.

killbillvol2

Serious question: who's there to replace the current county officers?

There's a lot of mouthing on here about 'the County Board' which is a pretty large group. I'm assuming that these critics really mean the officers when they call for all of them to step down?

Now I haven't lived in Waterford for a long time so I've no idea who's in the great talent pool to replace these people so maybe someone could name some names? Names of actual people who are willing and able to step up and do these highly lucrative jobs (most of which are unpaid).

I would say that, unlike a lot of the BS artists on this thread, I have been involved in another sport at a high level and the most difficult thing wasn't getting elected, it was finding a successor so I could get out.

So, names?

Stopitwillya

killbillvol2 wrote: »

Serious question: who's there to replace the current county officers?

There's a lot of mouthing on here about 'the County Board' which is a pretty large group. I'm assuming that these critics really mean the officers when they call for all of them to step down?

Now I haven't lived in Waterford for a long time so I've no idea who's in the great talent pool to replace these people so maybe someone could name some names? Names of actual people who are willing and able to step up and do these highly lucrative jobs (most of which are unpaid).

I would say that, unlike a lot of the BS artists on this thread, I have been involved in another sport at a high level and the most difficult thing wasn't getting elected, it was finding a successor so I could get out.

So, names?

That gaultier lad Saturdayman is the man. Would do a great job.

Giveitfong

willbeuptuesday wrote: »

I spoke to our club delegate who was at the meeting last night, as far as Paddy Joe is concerned the only problem is with those on Social Media. They were challenged at the end of the county board meeting last night about having a look at the structures. They said that they were putting together a group to review everything, the group includes Fergal Hartley, Cyril Farrell, Michael Walsh(City council) and I forgot the fourth name, this only came up at the end when they were challenged, he was not sure if they intended to ask these people or were they already tasked with the job.

I couldn't see Michael Walsh acting on a new review group seeing as he prepared a comprehensive strategic plan for the county board a few years ago containing many radical (i.e. sensible) proposals. The plan was totally ignored by the County Executive and never presented to the county board. And while the existence, and contents, of the plan were well known, I am not aware that any of the 50 or so club delegates to the county board requested (never mind demanded) that its findings be published. So much for the democracy that Paddy Joe was talking about. Rather than establishing a review group, all they have to do is blow the dust off Walsh's report, as its recommendations are as relevant (and needed) now as when they were first written.

Simo08

Giveitfong wrote: »

I couldn't see Michael Walsh acting on a new review group seeing as he prepared a comprehensive strategic plan for the county board a few years ago containing many radical (i.e. sensible) proposals. The plan was totally ignored by the County Executive and never presented to the county board. And while the existence, and contents, of the plan were well known, I am not aware that any of the 50 or so club delegates to the county board requested (never mind demanded) that its findings be published. So much for the democracy that Paddy Joe was talking about. Rather than establishing a review group, all they have to do is blow the dust off Walsh's report, as its recommendations are as relevant (and needed) now as when they were first written.

Is there anywhere I could read this report or even some of the points made in it?

Giveitfong

Road-Hog wrote: »

Excellent post above as usual....one question I would have though is between 2015 and 2018 what fundamentally changed with limerick. Prior to last year and this year we had never received such a hammering from them in my memory in any case. 2007 was a horrible experience in the semi but nothing like the beatings in the last two seasons. Is it purely down to commitment and organization which we have totally lost or did we in fact ever have it.

The Limerick team of 2018 didn't come out of nowhere. They won the 2013 Munster championship and while they lost the 2014 Munster final they were very unlucky to lose an epic semi-final in that year to Kilkenny. Meanwhile they won the Munster minor final in both 2013 and 2014 (both times against Waterford) and the 2015 and 2017 Under 21 All-Irelands. This underage success didn't come out of the blue either, but is a testimony to the under-age academy in the county set up by Joe McKenna and which was headed by Anthony Daly (on a fulltime basis) for three years.

On top of that, Limerick appointed a very effective senior manager in John Kiely (who managed the 2015 under 21 team) who in turn got Paul Kinnerk to come back from Clare to act as team coach. Kinnerk was the key man behind Clare's All-Ireland win in 2013 (for which Davy Fitzgerald got undue credit). Kiely also appointed a top-class strength and conditioning coach in Joe O'Connor, a performance coach (Caroline Currid) and a four-person team of statisticians. This team has produced a powerful combination of physical strength, fierce commitment, high skill levels and a highly structured and extremely effective game plan suited to the individual strengths of the players. Before this management team arrived, Cian Lynch looked like the kind of flashy wing forward who might be good if the game went his way while Declan Hannon looked like a washed-up forward who never lived up to his underage promise. Now they are two of the key playmakers on the team at midfield and centre back.

All these factors, however, do not explain why Limerick have hammered Waterford in their last three encounters. The Waterford management team is very weak when compared, not only with Limerick, but with Tipperary, Kilkenny and most of the other top-line counties. They do not seem to have any idea of the kind of game plan, based on keeping possession and working the ball through the lines, which the other leading counties employ. These factors, in turn, probably explain the lack of belief and fierce commitment which are the first requirements for survival in today's senior championship.

Dammo

In fairness, Paddy Joe is right. It’s important to “sit down in a methodical way “.

Firstly, make sure the chair/stool is under your arse, etc.

When people criticise the county board, do they mean the entire board or the executive? Are the ‘regular’ board members saying anything at meetings or just biding their time hoping for a 60k position to become available?

Do they collectively think everything is fine at their end and the alarming performances this year are someone else’s fault/ bad luck / “well, we’re Waterford, sure what do you expect?”

hurler on de ditch

blueflame wrote: »

Best of Luck to Brian O'Halloran, seems a really nice lad and is a fine hurler, unfortunately for him I think all the injuries he suffered robbed him of that blistering pace he showed at Under Age that could have made all the difference. Persistent injuries beyond doubt hamper development and in Brian's case this was evident.

Brian's career path serves to show that brilliant minors and underage stars do not necessarily progress to senior star status, for a number of possible reasons. Despite all the public outcry in the media and on this site, our Under Age Structures have improved dramatically over the last 10 / 15 years, yes they could be much better but they are not the disaster everyone is talking about and have provided plenty of "raw material" for senior management to work with. Unfortunately this is where the "system" is seems has really started to break down. Of the long list of fine minor sides and potential stars we have produced culminating in our All Ireland Minor winning side, how many have really gone on to develop their game at senior level. Is all the time and expense put into the coaching of our senior team actually improving players or is it too focused on systems!!! Genuine question, not a targeted attack on anyone, but really has our players individual skill levels improved despite all this extra time and coaching? For me our touch and striking is quite poor, raising the question, is this being neglected totally for the sake of tactics and systems. An honest and frank discussion without personal vendettas would be nice

Unfortunately Brian was another victim of Waterford's puke hurling over the last few years , I'd actually feel sorry for any Waterford forward

mountgomery burns

One interesting thing about the narrative against certain managers can be seen quite evidently in the above post...John Kiely praise for convincing Kinnerk to come back to his native Limerick, while rather than praising Fitzgerald for drafting him into his backroom team (think he was involved with the Clare 21s before that) it is used as a stick to beat him with.

Would make me take a step back and ask am I being objective in my criticism when I find fault with a manager?

Spatters

I think the negativity towards Davy was based around the fact that when Clare won the All Ireland under Fitzgerald, Kinnerk was getting the praise (much like in Limerick at the moment) but unlike John Kiely who heaped praise on Kinnerk, Davy wasn’t happy the limelight wasn’t on him. This led to the curtailment of Kinnerks involvement which ultimately made Kinnerk walk away.
Kiely, like Sheedy in Tipp isn’t afraid to surround himself with good people and rightly give credit where it is due without feeling outshone. Davy on the other hand is an ego maniac and full of his own sh1t. He was a bad choice for Waterford especially at that time and the subsequent all ireland final proved that when he had Eoin Murphy and Seamus Prendergast kicking the Kk players- which was totally out of character for them

willbeuptuesday

I

killbillvol2 wrote: »

Serious question: who's there to replace the current county officers?

There's a lot of mouthing on here about 'the County Board' which is a pretty large group. I'm assuming that these critics really mean the officers when they call for all of them to step down?

Now I haven't lived in Waterford for a long time so I've no idea who's in the great talent pool to replace these people so maybe someone could name some names? Names of actual people who are willing and able to step up and do these highly lucrative jobs (most of which are unpaid).

I would say that, unlike a lot of the BS artists on this thread, I have been involved in another sport at a high level and the most difficult thing wasn't getting elected, it was finding a successor so I could get out.

So, names?

willbeuptuesday

killbillvol2 wrote: »

Serious question: who's there to replace the current county officers?

There's a lot of mouthing on here about 'the County Board' which is a pretty large group. I'm assuming that these critics really mean the officers when they call for all of them to step down?

Now I haven't lived in Waterford for a long time so I've no idea who's in the great talent pool to replace these people so maybe someone could name some names? Names of actual people who are willing and able to step up and do these highly lucrative jobs (most of which are unpaid).

I would say that, unlike a lot of the BS artists on this thread, I have been involved in another sport at a high level and the most difficult thing wasn't getting elected, it was finding a successor so I could get out.

So, names?

I would start with the lad from Kilrossanty , can’t think of his first name his second name is Lonergan. He has overseen the most impressive development in the county. I met him one evening when my child was running with KCK in Kilrossanty. He walked around with me and Vinny Murray from Rathgormack, he Gave us solid advice about sourcing funding and lads he could get money out of a miser. He would be the ideal candidate for any position on the county board, if I had my way he would be the commercial manager. Just look at the job he has done, he would bring us to the next level.

mountgomery burns

Spatters wrote: »

I think the negativity towards Davy was based around the fact that when Clare won the All Ireland under Fitzgerald, Kinnerk was getting the praise (much like in Limerick at the moment) but unlike John Kiely who heaped praise on Kinnerk, Davy wasn’t happy the limelight wasn’t on him. This led to the curtailment of Kinnerks involvement which ultimately made Kinnerk walk away.
Kiely, like Sheedy in Tipp isn’t afraid to surround himself with good people and rightly give credit where it is due without feeling outshone. Davy on the other hand is an ego maniac and full of his own sh1t. He was a bad choice for Waterford especially at that time and the subsequent all ireland final proved that when he had Eoin Murphy and Seamus Prendergast kicking the Kk players- which was totally out of character for them

Not a huge fan ofhim either but just an example (and not meaning to attack above poster either) of how you can twist things to suit a narrative. Especially managers, it seems to be that it has to be either all good or all bad...especially the latter, of somebody has a problem with a manager it's like they have no redeeming qualities. Almost to the point where it seems personal where it's probably not in most cases anyway. That's my experience of Waterford anyway

Jjjjjjjjbarry

All I have to say is that if Fanning is staying on and it looks like he will, I hope it is all sorted and confirmed before two weeks time when the next round of senior hurling starts so he can start looking at players. Also for junior and intermediate games, we need every player in the county looked at and start fresh in November with full guns blazing. Last thing we need is for him to go and no new manager appointed until the last minute in a panic again.

hardybuck

killbillvol2 wrote: »

Serious question: who's there to replace the current county officers?

There's a lot of mouthing on here about 'the County Board' which is a pretty large group. I'm assuming that these critics really mean the officers when they call for all of them to step down?

Now I haven't lived in Waterford for a long time so I've no idea who's in the great talent pool to replace these people so maybe someone could name some names? Names of actual people who are willing and able to step up and do these highly lucrative jobs (most of which are unpaid).

I would say that, unlike a lot of the BS artists on this thread, I have been involved in another sport at a high level and the most difficult thing wasn't getting elected, it was finding a successor so I could get out.

So, names?

Every time a position on a State Board comes along, the positions are publicly advertised, and many offer a small amount of compensation for the board members. Something similar should happen here - advertise the posts and the desired skills and see who comes along.

The board of any organisation should set the strategic direction for the organisation and hold the management accountable for their performance in delivering the strategy.

To do that they need to be somewhat removed from the day to day to remain objective and not to get sucked into operational matters. Would anyone venture that this is the case with Waterford GAA?

There are some really capable people in Waterford, such as those from business and ex professional sports people, who would consider getting involved in the right setup but don't want to waste their time.

bruschi

mountgomery burns wrote: »

Not a huge fan ofhim either but just an example (and not meaning to attack above poster either) of how you can twist things to suit a narrative. Especially managers, it seems to be that it has to be either all good or all bad...especially the latter, of somebody has a problem with a manager it's like they have no redeeming qualities. Almost to the point where it seems personal where it's probably not in most cases anyway. That's my experience of Waterford anyway

it's a good point, and it does show how easy it is to spin a narrative to show a negative on managers. the other point then being made that Davy is an ego maniac and doesnt like the backroom team getting plaudits. But yet Davy got one of the most successful coaches in Wexford in JJ Doyle on board from day 1 who is still there and is probably likely to succeed Davy when he leaves, so is in on the job for the last 3 years with him. Davy also had Paraic Fanning in too and when he left he now has Stephen Molumphy in with him. He also got Keith Rossiter in too, so having 2 very recent retirees who were excellent players on his staff. That seems to me like surrounding himself with quality people and coaches. But again, the narrative will all be about Davy on his own despite the fact that this sort of set up is leaving Wexford in a good position for continuity after he likely leaves this year.

you can analyse managers to death and spin results and form opinions whatever way you want. Derek McGrath probably the best indicator of that over the last couple of years and that is still ongoing.

JesusRef

Giveitfong wrote: »

The Limerick team of 2018 didn't come out of nowhere. They won the 2013 Munster championship and while they lost the 2014 Munster final they were very unlucky to lose an epic semi-final in that year to Kilkenny. Meanwhile they won the Munster minor final in both 2013 and 2014 (both times against Waterford) and the 2015 and 2017 Under 21 All-Irelands. This underage success didn't come out of the blue either, but is a testimony to the under-age academy in the county set up by Joe McKenna and which was headed by Anthony Daly (on a fulltime basis) for three years.

On top of that, Limerick appointed a very effective senior manager in John Kiely (who managed the 2015 under 21 team) who in turn got Paul Kinnerk to come back from Clare to act as team coach. Kinnerk was the key man behind Clare's All-Ireland win in 2013 (for which Davy Fitzgerald got undue credit). Kiely also appointed a top-class strength and conditioning coach in Joe O'Connor, a performance coach (Caroline Currid) and a four-person team of statisticians. This team has produced a powerful combination of physical strength, fierce commitment, high skill levels and a highly structured and extremely effective game plan suited to the individual strengths of the players. Before this management team arrived, Cian Lynch looked like the kind of flashy wing forward who might be good if the game went his way while Declan Hannon looked like a washed-up forward who never lived up to his underage promise. Now they are two of the key playmakers on the team at midfield and centre back.

All these factors, however, do not explain why Limerick have hammered Waterford in their last three encounters. The Waterford management team is very weak when compared, not only with Limerick, but with Tipperary, Kilkenny and most of the other top-line counties. They do not seem to have any idea of the kind of game plan, based on keeping possession and working the ball through the lines, which the other leading counties employ. These factors, in turn, probably explain the lack of belief and fierce commitment which are the first requirements for survival in today's senior championship.

Limerick 2013 Minor Munster champions (Sean Finn, Richie English, Daragh O'Donovan, Cian Lynch, Tom Morrissey, Barry Nash) (used sub Michael Casey)

Limerick 2014 Minor Munster Champions (Sean Finn, Paddy O’Loughlin, Cian Lynch, Barry Nash, Seamus Flanagan, Tom Morrissey, Peter Casey) (unused sub: Aaron Gillane)

Limerick 2015 Minor Munster runners up (Paddy O’Loughlin, Kyle Hayes, Seamus Flanagan, Peter Casey)

Limerick 2016 Minor Munster and AI runners up (Kyle's Hayes)

Waterford played Limerick in all of those years and were seriously competitive.

In 2015 we only lost to Tipp by a point

In 2016 we were the only team to beat Tipp and lost narrowly to Limerick, (Tipp best Lmk well in both finals, Waterford/Tipp result may be skewed as from memory Tipp got some minor footballers back to play after early rounds)

Limerick minors from that time were developed like a senior team, have gone on to win 21s and seniors.

Tipp minor players have won a 21 but have it found to make an impression on the senior panel.

JesusRef

JesusRef wrote: »

Limerick 2013 Minor Munster champions (Sean Finn, Richie English, Daragh O'Donovan, Cian Lynch, Tom Morrissey, Barry Nash) (used sub Michael Casey)

Limerick 2014 Minor Munster Champions (Sean Finn, Paddy O’Loughlin, Cian Lynch, Barry Nash, Seamus Flanagan, Tom Morrissey, Peter Casey) (unused sub: Aaron Gillane)

Limerick 2015 Minor Munster runners up (Paddy O’Loughlin, Kyle Hayes, Seamus Flanagan, Peter Casey)

Limerick 2016 Minor Munster and AI runners up (Kyle's Hayes)

Waterford played Limerick in all of those years and were seriously competitive.

In 2015 we only lost to Tipp by a point

In 2016 we were the only team to beat Tipp and lost narrowly to Limerick, (Tipp best Lmk well in both finals, Waterford/Tipp result may be skewed as from memory Tipp got some minor footballers back to play after early rounds)

Limerick minors from that time were developed like a senior team, have gone on to win 21s and seniors.

Tipp minor players have won a 21 but have it found to make an impression on the senior panel.

Looking at it I stand corrected from previous post where I questioned if we had the players.

After looking at it I would also question Ken McGraths assertion on how we are drifting off in Munster.

We produced serious minor Hurlers from 2009 to 2019 and were competive with serious teams in that time.

What we are doing from the age of 18 to 23 at county level needs to be looked at.

And looking at Limericks senior set up, ours is light years behind. Fanning needs to big hitters in there with him

carter10

JesusRef wrote: »

Looking at it I stand corrected from previous post where I questioned if we had the players.

After looking at it I would also question Ken McGraths assertion on how we are drifting off in Munster.

We produced serious minor Hurlers from 2009 to 2019 and were competive with serious teams in that time.

What we are doing from the age of 18 to 23 at county level needs to be looked at.

And looking at Limericks senior set up, ours is light years behind. Fanning needs to big hitters in there with him

We are producing the players and as indicated above we have been very 'competitive' at underage, however, the point is we keep losing or drawing. Close in the last 3 minor games this year but never looking like winning. In my opinion, the major drawback for Waterford hurling is our mentality. A lot of the time teams are going out hoping to win as opposed to the Tipp/Cork/KK etc who go out expecting to win.
Someone once said generations of Waterford fans have spent their young formative years sitting in the back seats of cars coming home from matches listening to the adults giving out about the team. That was definitely my experience as a kid and it has an effect on the psyche of a county.
On Youtube you will find coverage of our last All Ireland win- early in the commentary, the guy says: " it's said that if you get ahead of Waterford early in the game their heads will drop" so we have had this deficit in mentality for years.
Along with developing structures as suggested by previous posters at the minor, u20 and senior county level, we need to seriously look at bringing in a top sports psychologist.

JesusRef

carter10 wrote: »

We are producing the players and as indicated above we have been very 'competitive' at underage, however, the point is we keep losing or drawing. Close in the last 3 minor games this year but never looking like winning. In my opinion, the major drawback for Waterford hurling is our mentality. A lot of the time teams are going out hoping to win as opposed to the Tipp/Cork/KK etc who go out expecting to win.
Someone once said generations of Waterford fans have spent their young formative years sitting in the back seats of cars coming home from matches listening to the adults giving out about the team. That was definitely my experience as a kid and it has an effect on the psyche of a county.
On Youtube you will find coverage of our last All Ireland win- early in the commentary, the guy says: " it's said that if you get ahead of Waterford early in the game their heads will drop" so we have had this deficit in mentality for years.
Along with developing structures as suggested by previous posters at the minor, u20 and senior county level, we need to seriously look at bringing in a top sports psychologist.

If you need to see how a team can emerge from a 'county pysche' look no further than Limerick (check out unlimited heartbreak)

Cork supporters over the last few years totally slaughtered their players, including Patrick Horgan (last year after he missed a 65 against Waterford the Cork Stats man (an obnoxious individual) stood up and shouted 'take him off'), but horgsn got it a lot worse in the years before that.

The comment on getting ahead, that is levelled at every single county outside the top 3. Waterford just wasn't a GAA county up to that point (or realistically for a long time after), of course teams with more Hurlers and stronger traditions were going to beat us once they got ahead, the root cause of Waterford losing was not cause the heads dropped.

Waterford minors are more competitive in the last 10 years than they ever were.
Our minors normally got an awful lot of bad beatings no matter who they were playing.

There is definitely a consistent huge upturn in the performance of our minor teams

It suggests things aren't as bad in Waterford as people make out (the next Offaly).

We need a man in to coordinate our underage squads a development pathway to senior (someone with experience of club, school and county.. Derek McGrath??)

upthedeise16

JesusRef wrote: »

If you need to see how a team can emerge from a 'county pysche' look no further than Limerick (check out unlimited heartbreak)

Cork supporters over the last few years totally slaughtered their players, including Patrick Horgan (last year after he missed a 65 against Waterford the Cork Stats man (an obnoxious individual) stood up and shouted 'take him off'), but horgsn got it a lot worse in the years before that.

The comment on getting ahead, that is levelled at every single county outside the top 3. Waterford just wasn't a GAA county up to that point (or realistically for a long time after), of course teams with more Hurlers and stronger traditions were going to beat us once they got ahead, the root cause of Waterford losing was not cause the heads dropped.

Waterford minors are more competitive in the last 10 years than they ever were.
Our minors normally got an awful lot of bad beatings no matter who they were playing.

There is definitely a consistent huge upturn in the performance of our minor teams

It suggests things aren't as bad in Waterford as people make out (the next Offaly).

We need a man in to coordinate our underage squads a development pathway to senior (someone with experience of club, school and county.. Derek McGrath??)

I agree that maybe the underage structures aren’t at the level they could be and our schools could be supported further, such as looking to amalgamate the Dungarvan and surrounding schools again to compete at Harty but I think the Munster PPS board may not allow this.

But on recent minor teams, I’ve been impressed with both the 2018 and 2019 teams other than their ability to close out games and their inconsistency, particularly in 2018. In 2018, Waterford defeated Tipperary who won the All-Ireland later in the year. Surely they have to be a decent team to defeat the overall winners? This year, I feel the team should have progressed out of Munster. I fully believe if they didn’t allow the short puckouts against Clare, they would have won that game. A 1st half sending off against Tipp cost the team the match as they were probably the better side. Again, against Limerick, despite having a decent wind in the 2nd and playing well, they couldn’t get the win but again should have. I didn’t go to the Cork game so can’t comment on it and the team were already eliminated as it was.

There are exceptional teams that have over 5 to play senior but generally, you will only get 2-3 who have stellar intercounty careers which is enough to keep the senior team competitive. It’s the lack of variety of the players coming through that would worry me. Very few big, tall, physically strong forwards coming through that can win their own ball seem to be coming through. In 2013, DJ Foran and Cormac Curran were those big players and certainly Gleeson at centre back but they never developed in to big physical senior players, they aren’t the size of men like Hegarty, Walter Walsh, Cooney, Glynn etc.

blueflame

Foran is definitely big enough and skillful enough, and has a great paw on him. His main failing is his aggressiveness, he hurls like a gentleman, and I don't know how or if it is even possible to turn him into an aggressive hungry individual. He is still young but if we could he could be a real asset.

I asked about Cormac Curran in a previous post and what he is at, because he seemed to have the aggression and hurling, was it a commitment issue or was he ever given the chance, not sure. Jack Fagan is another lad mentioned here who while not being a "giant" is certainly capable of winning his own ball. I am sure there are more lads to look at such as Neil Montgomery and Michael Kiely of Abbeyside.

This brings me back to to the "Aussie debate" - for me he is a Half Back , probable center back, but a half back beyond doubt. Last Saturday evening he picked up one ball in his own half back line and pinged it over 80 yards into a forwards hand who had run behind the Cork defender. (cannot remember who the forward was) but it was within inches of leading to a possible goal. The ability to hit this kind of pass is limited to a small number of individuals and we simply don't have them. Playing Aussie up front it a waste of time and resources, he is like a fish out of water. As I have said repeatedly one good game in five is not good enough at inter-county level and Aussie is capable of scoring as much from center back as he is from center forward. One piece of advice to the management for next year whoever they turn out to be, stop this experiment now before it destroys the lad totally, it is a busted flush, concentrate on finding new ball winners instead of robbing Peter to pay Paul