Waterford GAA thread - mod warning post #1 and #51

Jjjjjjjjbarry

JeffKenna wrote: »

Has Giveitfong given his analysis of the match yet? I always find it insightful and look forward to reading it after matches.

Always great to read some analysis that doesn't just focus on the magic word from pundits.... "intensity".

Deiseen

thesaturdayman wrote: »

Taken from Twitter - WP clearly is significantly smaller overall more so 8-10 metres tighter then the other grounds.

Wrong. Same width as Thurles.

thesaturdayman

Deiseen wrote: »

Wrong. Same width as Thurles.

8-10m tighter depending on the pitch

if someone more tech savvy then i please cut the image into a post as opposed to the link that would be very much appreciated - thanks

Deiseen

thesaturdayman wrote: »

8-10m tighter depending on the pitch

if someone more tech savvy then i please cut the image into a post as opposed to the link that would be very much appreciated - thanks

The dimensions for Semple are wrong. Tipperary GAA list it as 80m width and....

thurles.JPG

deiseach

Deiseen wrote: »

The dimensions for Semple are wrong. Tipperary GAA list it as 80m width and....

thurles.JPG

That Maurice Fitzgerald point wasn't that big a deal after all.

thesaturdayman

seemingly the sidelines were brought in by H&S in Walsh park - so the 80m isn't actually 80m could be something like 76m or 78m which would partially offset the discrepancy with Thurles if all is true.

Deiseen

thesaturdayman wrote: »

seemingly the sidelines were brought in by H&S in Walsh park - so the 80m isn't actually 80m could be something like 76m or 78m which would partially offset the discrepancy with Thurles if all is true.

In fairness, it did look taken in a little bit but doubt it was taken in by anymore than 1 or 2m.

Before that, without it being taken in, it was the same width as Thurles.

blueflame

Damn it, time to bring the measuring tape to Semple on Sunday and sort this out for once and for all

Deiseen

blueflame wrote: »

Damn it, time to bring the measuring tape to Semple on Sunday and sort this out for once and for all

No need, I've done the measurement for you in my earlier post.

DLS2THECORE

Looks like no S Fives and no N Connors for Sunday's trip to Tipp.
C Gleeson back in defence and J Prendergast into midfield?

thesaturdayman

very hard to call the team nothing much between anyone - where is Brian o halloran?

I know he has been very stop start over the years, but he looked like he was turning a corner. He has had a horrid run of injuries - same comment darragh fives. Both of them would be an addition in the middle third if close to playing?

KevIRL

DLS2THECORE wrote: »

Looks like no S Fives and no N Connors for Sunday's trip to Tipp.

Not good at all

cul beag

thesaturdayman wrote: »

very hard to call the team nothing much between anyone - where is Brian o halloran?

I know he has been very stop start over the years, but he looked like he was turning a corner. He has had a horrid run of injuries - same comment darragh fives. Both of them would be an addition in the middle third if close to playing?

To be honest he has had a torrid time with injuries and that hasn’t helped his cause but his one downfall when he is fit is his striking. It is too inconsistent at this level for what is required from a top forward. As for Darragh Fives I think there might have to be a tough call made on his career sooner rather than later. He must be the most unfortunate player to ever wear the jersey. Fully fit he’s a Rolls Royce of a player, one of the first names that would be on the team sheet but at what stage does himself or management say enough is enough? Definitely a hard call to make.
My team for Sunday would be:
Socky
McNulty Prunty Gleeson
Mahony Tadgh Moran
Barron Prendergast
Aussie Shane Bennett Mahony
Curran Bennett Ryan

Motivator

I think Brick and Maurice Shanahan need to start in the half forwards. We absolutely need ball winners and ball breakers in that line. If we don’t and we’re relying on smaller players who aren’t strong enough to tackle that Tipp half back line we will be eaten alive. If that half back line gets on top, ball after ball will be arrowed down on top of Callinan, O’Dwyer and John McGrath. Look at the damage O’Dwyer did on Sunday against Cork. If he gets anywhere near that kind of space and time again on Sunday he will do damage. Now imagine he gets space, time and a good delivery of ball from the half back line. They could do an awful number on us I fear, unless there is some competition for high balls in our half forward line.

Road-Hog

Motivator wrote: »

I think Brick and Maurice Shanahan need to start in the half forwards. We absolutely need ball winners and ball breakers in that line. If we don’t and we’re relying on smaller players who aren’t strong enough to tackle that Tipp half back line we will be eaten alive. If that half back line gets on top, ball after ball will be arrowed down on top of Callinan, O’Dwyer and John McGrath. Look at the damage O’Dwyer did on Sunday against Cork. If he gets anywhere near that kind of space and time again on Sunday he will do damage. Now imagine he gets space, time and a good delivery of ball from the half back line. They could do an awful number on us I fear, unless there is some competition for high balls in our half forward line.

Not so sure about brick Walsh but shanahan yes but maybe not for a full game bring him on early in the second half.........based on our performance last week we surely can’t be as disorganized and headless looking for 60 mins again....? Maybe we will but let’s hope they can up their performance.......if Tipp repeat last weeks performance and can Score 2-28 / 2-30 again then w’ford are fcuked.....however they are unlikely to do this Every ball they touched last week turned to ‘gold’......if w’ford can up their game and Tipp are a bit off then we may be in with a shout

Lots of iffs above but going to go for a 3/4 pt Tipp victory with a score line of 2-19 to 1-18 as a best case outcome and worst case being a 15/16 pt defeat say 4-29 to 2-18

Season over either way I fear on Sunday and it’s only May 19th.

Fred C Dobbs

Road-Hog wrote: »

Not so sure about brick Walsh but shanahan yes but maybe not for a full game bring him on early in the second half.........based on our performance last week we surely can’t be as disorganized and headless looking for 60 mins again....? Maybe we will but let’s hope they can up their performance.......if Tipp repeat last weeks performance and can Score 2-28 / 2-30 again then w’ford are fcuked.....however they are unlikely to do this Every ball they touched last week turned to ‘gold’......if w’ford can up their game and Tipp are a bit off then we may be in with a shout

Lots of iffs above but going to go for a 3/4 pt Tipp victory with a score line of 2-19 to 1-18 as a best case outcome and worst case being a 15/16 pt defeat say 4-29 to 2-18

Season over either way I fear on Sunday and it’s only May 19th.

Terrible to think we could be looking at another barren summer so early into the championship but lose on Sunday and the show is probably over (Limerick qualified in 3rd place last year with 5 points). The whole season is now on the line so can Waterford somehow pull out a winning performance ....

Motivator

Fred C Dobbs wrote: »

Terrible to think we could be looking at another barren summer so early into the championship but lose on Sunday and the show is probably over (Limerick qualified in 3rd place last year with 5 points). The whole season is now on the line so can Waterford somehow pull out a winning performance ....

Limerick finished on 5 points but Tipperary finished with 2 and Waterford with 1. This year 4 points could be enough to finish third but scoring difference would come in to it then more than likely. On local Cork radio the other morning they were discussing last year. Cork finished unbeaten and top of the group but their scoring difference was only +8. That will tell you how close these teams are to one another. Tipperary finished second bottom last year and their scoring difference was -8. Limerick finished third with +8 points difference despite beating Waterford by 13 points.

Last year the Munster Championship started with Limerick beating 6 points and Clare beating Waterford by 9. Then the real drama started in the second round of games so things aren’t over yet but this year feels different for Waterford after last Sunday. We have the experience of last year to reflect on and everyone knows how tough it is where last year it was unknown. There’ll be drama yet and I hope it starts on Sunday with a good Waterford performance and I get the feeling a scrappy win will set the year up for us. Getting a scrappy win will be the hardest part.

Very much doom and gloom down here in Cork all week. Lots of people think their year is done already.

Road-Hog

Motivator wrote: »

Limerick finished on 5 points but Tipperary finished with 2 and Waterford with 1. This year 4 points could be enough to finish third but scoring difference would come in to it then more than likely. On local Cork radio the other morning they were discussing last year. Cork finished unbeaten and top of the group but their scoring difference was only +8. That will tell you how close these teams are to one another. Tipperary finished second bottom last year and their scoring difference was -8. Limerick finished third with +8 points difference despite beating Waterford by 13 points.

Last year the Munster Championship started with Limerick beating 6 points and Clare beating Waterford by 9. Then the real drama started in the second round of games so things aren’t over yet but this year feels different for Waterford after last Sunday. We have the experience of last year to reflect on and everyone knows how tough it is where last year it was unknown. There’ll be drama yet and I hope it starts on Sunday with a good Waterford performance and I get the feeling a scrappy win will set the year up for us. Getting a scrappy win will be the hardest part.

Very much doom and gloom down here in Cork all week. Lots of people think their year is done already.

Well limerick are certainly building themselves up for a fall....stuff like ‘Kyle Hayes ready to walk all over cork’ being said.......it will probably be a tight game and a narrow cork win is possible which may suit w’ford....? The Media and a certain amount coming from within the limerick camp that they will have it easy on Sunday and a second all Ireland title is theirs cone August......? Not sure what to wish for......da langers getting their season back on track (along with their cockiness) via a victory or limerick getting carried away with themselves and being way too over confident in their next game v Waterford and Waterford ambush them in Walsh Park....?

Cake Man

Without trying to be PTH2009 version 2.0 but I'd be shocked if we were to somehow pull off a win on Sunday and think Tipp will win handy enough by 6-8pts without having to get out of third gear. I don't think we'll be as bad as we were for large parts against Clare but I can't see anyway we can outscore Tipp and somehow contain them. Our forwards aren't prolific enough and just can't seem to prevent the opposition defence feeding good ball into their forwards.
I'd gladly look like a fool and eat my words Sunday evening but as a few previous posters alluded to, I also think our season will be over Sunday which would be depressing as fcuk to be out of the championship by 19th May.


I've been saying it for months that the opener v Clare was simply a must win game and I couldn't even bear thinking about losing it. I'm usually fairly cautious around our chances before any game but I genuinely believed we'd win that game so to have lost it has left me fairly deflated. Can only imagine how the players and management are feeling trying to pick themselves up after that. I've no doubt they too were targeting a win there which would have meant a bit of a free shot v Tipp or Limerick. Now we're under huge pressure to try get something against a team we haven't beaten in championship in 11 years on their own turf....

Giveitfong

Waterford’s defeat to Clare last Sunday was largely self-inflicted. Clare did play some good hurling at times, but if Waterford had played at anything near the level of which they are capable, they would have won comfortably. That they did not do so I would attribute principally to the team management, partly because of their failure to get the team in the proper frame of mind required by the occasion and some poor selection decisions, but mainly because of their adoption of a new game plan which was unbelievably ineffectual. These problems were compounded by some poor onfield decision-making and execution which one would not expect from a team with so much skill and experience. This was a sure sign of a team whose concentration level was well below where it needed to be.

Clare brought nothing new to the table in terms of setup and game plan. They contested fiercely for primary possession and put a huge effort into turning ball over, routinely devoting two or more players at a time to these tasks. Once they obtained possession, they used short passes and hard running to move the ball through the lines. Once they got a player into space in the midfield area, they pursued two main options. One was to send a long ball into their dangerous full forward line; the other was to give the ball to Tony Kelly whose ability to shoot accurately from distance was one of the main nails in Waterford’s coffin.

There has been much media focus on Waterford’s failure to man-mark Kelly, but he is basically unmarkable in situations like this, using his pace, footwork and skill to, firstly, get into position to take the pass and, secondly, to get into space to shoot (or, on occasion, set up a team mate for the shot). The key to minimising Kelly’s influence is to stop Clare from getting possession at source, and Waterford didn’t work hard enough to achieve this last Sunday.

Clare’s other main attacking option was the high ball into the full forward line. John Conlon was clearly the prime target for these balls, but a key tactic in this respect was to always have either Shane O’Donnell (normally) or Podge Collins in close proximity to pick up breaking balls. Conlon is usually good to catch a few of these balls, but Conor Prunty did a very good job in preventing this (Conlon only got the ball in his hand three times during the game), mainly by forcing a knockdown. The natural tendency for the corner back in these situations was to move in behind Prunty, in case a ball broke through. However, this left O’Donnell/Collins free to pick up breaking balls, which occurred seven times during the game.

Waterford’s game plan was simplistic, predictable and ineffectual, and yet was persevered with right to the end. This involved sending long balls up the line from the back to the Bennetts, Stephen on the right and Shane on the left. Playing the ball up the sideline meant that the intended recipient had very little space to work with. Even if he got the ball in his hand, he had his back to the goal with a defender right up his rear end. If he then managed to get past this player he was a long way from goal and invariably had another defender blocking his way. I counted 21 instances of this kind of ball during the game, of which Waterford won just six. Shane Bennett in particular had problems getting any possession from these balls – he only got the ball in his hand three times during the 60 minutes he was on the pitch.

Waterford played just one decent diagonal ball – the kind full forwards really like – during the game. It was ironic that, in their lead-up to the Sunday Game Live, RTE showed several examples of the excellent passing movements which Waterford produced during the league; yet these were abandoned for last Sunday’s game. The RTE pundits also unanimously identified Jamie Barron as the key player in the Waterford setup, yet the Waterford game plan virtually took him out of the equation, as the ball repeatedly sailed over his head on its fruitless journey to the inside forwards. The game plan also involved withdrawing Peter Hogan to what was effectively no-man’s-land out the field where the game completely by-passed him. Yet he was made the fall-guy by the selectors, being replaced at half-time.

Some of the selection decisions made by the team management were hard to credit. In Jamie Barron and Kevin Moran, Waterford have had the foremost midfield combination in hurling for the last few years and the main driving force behind the team. Yet Moran was placed at wing back last Sunday, and when he was moved to midfield for the second half, Barron was moved to centre forward. The placing of Pauric Mahony on the wing would make you wonder about the basic competence of the current management. With his lack of pace and physicality, Mahony will never make a wing forward of intercounty standard. What he is very good at (as pointed out by Blueflame in an earlier post) is drifting across the half forward line into positions to take off-load passes and shoot for goal. He was never given the opportunity to play this role last Sunday, where just a single extra point would have made all the difference.

The mentors’ game management was also very poor. They left Tadhg de Búrca, one of our top players, sitting in the middle of the half back line throughout the first half, where he was totally by-passed by the Clare game plan. It was only when he was given the job of man-marking Peter Duggan that he stormed into the game. I was surprised that Maurice Shanahan did not start the game, amazed that he did not start the second half and absolutely astonished that he was not introduced until the 65th minute. I was also gobsmacked when Jamie Barron was replaced – one of the few Waterford players capable of the bit of magic that might have saved the game. Meanwhile, the ineffectual Mikey Kearney (just two possessions in the second half, one of which ended in a bad wide) was left on the field.

Probably the biggest error of all made by the selectors was to start Stephen Bennett on the frees and then to leave him on them. Pauric Mahony has been one of the most reliable freetakers, from all distances, in hurling for a number of years now. Bennett showed his fallibility in the league final with, we assumed, normal service being resumed when Mahony took over the frees. Last Sunday Bennett hit two frees wide and dropped two short. I am confident that Mahony would have nailed at least two of these which would have won us the game, other things being equal.

And what was Bennett thinking of when he passed a 65 sideways to Tadhg de Búrca in the 69th minute? If he was trying to engineer a goal then he should have hit the ball to the edge of the square. There was no way de Búrca was going to run through a massed Clare defence, and in fact he lost the ball about 50 metres out from the Clare goal. If Bennett had put that ball over the bar, we would have had a different result.

Another poor decision by Bennett was to try to first time the great pass he got from Kevin Moran early in the game when he should have taken the ball in hand. He also missed a great goal chance in the league final by shooting early rather than bringing the ball closer to goal. But Bennett was not the only player guilty of poor decision-making. Another case in point was the very last play of the game. Stephen O’Keeffe took a backpass from Conor Gleeson and then lashed a long ball down the left sideline where Maurice Shanahan knocked it over the line under pressure from his market. Even if he had won the ball he would have found it difficult to do much with it from where he was. If O’Keeffe had looked up he would have seen Shane McNulty totally unmarked outside him with half the field in front of him completely empty. McNulty could have made ground before either having a pop himself or try to find a player in a better scoring position close to goal. That’s what Kilkenny would have done in this situation.

It should be said that Waterford were also the victims of a fair amount of misfortune during the game, although I have always found that the team with the better attitude always seems to get the breaks in hurling games. John Conlon’s goal should have been disallowed as he took at least seven steps before finishing to the net. The irony of this is that referee John Owens was very strict on even fewer steps later in the game. Then there was the sideline incorrectly given against Waterford in a key position late in the game. Also Clare got at least two points from balls breaking very kindly to unmarked players in the second half, while Kevin Moran’s misplaced pass to Tony Kelly in the 64th minute was an absolute gift.

While Waterford should have won last Sunday, we know they are capable of much better. Remember last year after the defeat, and all the injuries, in Ennis Waterford came out the following week and played Tipperary off the park for most of the game, and were robbed in the end by a disgraceful umpiring decision. Cork never put an ageing Tipperary team under pressure last Sunday, and that is what Waterford have to do next Sunday. They need to revert to their passing game and stretch the Tipperary defence. We need to start Maurice Shanahan, or get him on the field earlier, while there also should be a place for Jack Prendergast who, in his brief cameo last Sunday, showed his ability to get on, and hold up, the ball. Above all, in my view, we need to restore the Barron/Moran midfield and give them the ball to drive at the Tipperary defence.

Road-Hog

Long time coming giveitfong but as usual with the wait. I had a look at majority of game last night on RTÉ player and concur with almost everything you say.......it was a self destruction type performance.....crazy at times shot selections, players in wrong positions.......Clare got a very fortunate run of the green on a number of occasions nearly all of which ended up as scores, Owens wasn’t the reason we lost but some of his frees were very questionable....tough tough game ahead of us next Sunday all we can hope for is an overconfident Tipp have an off day and w’ford get some luck and all players and management get it right in the day......?

fricatus

Motivator wrote: »

Limerick finished on 5 points but Tipperary finished with 2 and Waterford with 1. This year 4 points could be enough to finish third but scoring difference would come in to it then more than likely.

Just bear in mind that if we finish level on points with one team, then the result of our match with that team is what will determine the final placing (see championship guide). Score difference only comes into play if we're level with two or more teams... although given how tight it is, that's a real possibility!

Anyway, roll on Sunday, no reason we can't win if we go with a plan. Different sport, but Liverpool and Spurs are proof that it's not over until the 90 (or 70) minutes - plus injury time - are played! H'on the Déise!

Gardner

Giveitfong where is the possession count

Waterford by 3 on Sunday.

BloodyBill

Road-Hog wrote: »

Well limerick are certainly building themselves up for a fall....stuff like ‘Kyle Hayes ready to walk all over cork’ being said.......it will probably be a tight game and a narrow cork win is possible which may suit w’ford....? The Media and a certain amount coming from within the limerick camp that they will have it easy on Sunday and a second all Ireland title is theirs cone August......? Not sure what to wish for......da langers getting their season back on track (along with their cockiness) via a victory or limerick getting carried away with themselves and being way too over confident in their next game v Waterford and Waterford ambush them in Walsh Park....?

Talking complete balderdash there. There is nothing except humble self awareness in that Limerick camp. Theres confidence but not the arrogance you insinuate. That type of arrogance is the Tipp type of stuff which riles up every county in Munster. It's not in Limerick

BloodyBill

That essay up there on where Waterford went wrong is mostly wrong itself. The premise that if Waterford played to their ability they would have won. What kind of childish analysis is that. Clare were 10 points better on the day. They had to hold on in the end due to their inability to hold a lead and leaving teams in games. Clare have proven top quality hurlers who guarantee a Championship performance every day. Waterford have less in my opinion.
I think Waterford have a great chance on Sunday but they ll need to score 2 or 3 goals and prevent them at the other end. I'd Start Shanahan and tell the Bennets to hold up the ball rather than going bare faced for wonder scores...just hold it up. I think Waterford will win by 2 points

Road-Hog

BloodyBill wrote: »

Talking complete balderdash there. There is nothing except humble self awareness in that Limerick camp. Theres confidence but not the arrogance you insinuate. That type of arrogance is the Tipp type of stuff which riles up every county in Munster. It's not in Limerick

How can you be so sure....? I sat amongst a crowd of LK supporters in Nowlan Park a few weeks ago and didn’t get such a humble feeling from them......I take it you are a Clare suppoeter...?

TheScoringGoal

BloodyBill wrote: »

That essay up there on where Waterford went wrong is mostly wrong itself. The premise that if Waterford played to their ability they would have won. What kind of childish analysis is that. Clare were 10 points better on the day. They had to hold on in the end due to their inability to hold a lead and leaving teams in games. Clare have proven top quality hurlers who guarantee a Championship performance every day. Waterford have less in my opinion.
I think Waterford have a great chance on Sunday but they ll need to score 2 or 3 goals and prevent them at the other end. I'd Start Shanahan and tell the Bennets to hold up the ball rather than going bare faced for wonder scores...just hold it up. I think Waterford will win by 2 points

I'd certainly question that Clare have more proven championship players. Obviously there was the all ireland in 2013 and the semi final last year but they didn't progress in between. To me that is a model of inconsistency. During this period Waterford contested semi finals and finals.

My opinion that I posted last Sunday was that our management team were very poor in their set up and their changes. Up until that point Clare were definitely the better team. I have yet to read or hear any pundit who has not criticised our management calls. However when Waterford finally happened upon a competent style of play, they brought the game back to a point. In other words in 10 minutes of playing in a manner that suited us, we got to within a point of what Clare did in 60 minutes. As far as I'm concerned management are part of the overall package so it's our own fault and Clare were deserving winners on the day. But if both management teams were equal I wouldn't be surprised by a different result.

DiscoStew

Giveitfong wrote: »

Waterford’s defeat to Clare last Sunday was largely self-inflicted. Clare did play some good hurling at times, but if Waterford had played at anything near the level of which they are capable, they would have won comfortably. That they did not do so I would attribute principally to the team management, partly because of their failure to get the team in the proper frame of mind required by the occasion and some poor selection decisions, but mainly because of their adoption of a new game plan which was unbelievably ineffectual. These problems were compounded by some poor onfield decision-making and execution which one would not expect from a team with so much skill and experience. This was a sure sign of a team whose concentration level was well below where it needed to be.

Clare brought nothing new to the table in terms of setup and game plan. They contested fiercely for primary possession and put a huge effort into turning ball over, routinely devoting two or more players at a time to these tasks. Once they obtained possession, they used short passes and hard running to move the ball through the lines. Once they got a player into space in the midfield area, they pursued two main options. One was to send a long ball into their dangerous full forward line; the other was to give the ball to Tony Kelly whose ability to shoot accurately from distance was one of the main nails in Waterford’s coffin.

There has been much media focus on Waterford’s failure to man-mark Kelly, but he is basically unmarkable in situations like this, using his pace, footwork and skill to, firstly, get into position to take the pass and, secondly, to get into space to shoot (or, on occasion, set up a team mate for the shot). The key to minimising Kelly’s influence is to stop Clare from getting possession at source, and Waterford didn’t work hard enough to achieve this last Sunday.

Clare’s other main attacking option was the high ball into the full forward line. John Conlon was clearly the prime target for these balls, but a key tactic in this respect was to always have either Shane O’Donnell (normally) or Podge Collins in close proximity to pick up breaking balls. Conlon is usually good to catch a few of these balls, but Conor Prunty did a very good job in preventing this (Conlon only got the ball in his hand three times during the game), mainly by forcing a knockdown. The natural tendency for the corner back in these situations was to move in behind Prunty, in case a ball broke through. However, this left O’Donnell/Collins free to pick up breaking balls, which occurred seven times during the game.

Waterford’s game plan was simplistic, predictable and ineffectual, and yet was persevered with right to the end. This involved sending long balls up the line from the back to the Bennetts, Stephen on the right and Shane on the left. Playing the ball up the sideline meant that the intended recipient had very little space to work with. Even if he got the ball in his hand, he had his back to the goal with a defender right up his rear end. If he then managed to get past this player he was a long way from goal and invariably had another defender blocking his way. I counted 21 instances of this kind of ball during the game, of which Waterford won just six. Shane Bennett in particular had problems getting any possession from these balls – he only got the ball in his hand three times during the 60 minutes he was on the pitch.

Waterford played just one decent diagonal ball – the kind full forwards really like – during the game. It was ironic that, in their lead-up to the Sunday Game Live, RTE showed several examples of the excellent passing movements which Waterford produced during the league; yet these were abandoned for last Sunday’s game. The RTE pundits also unanimously identified Jamie Barron as the key player in the Waterford setup, yet the Waterford game plan virtually took him out of the equation, as the ball repeatedly sailed over his head on its fruitless journey to the inside forwards. The game plan also involved withdrawing Peter Hogan to what was effectively no-man’s-land out the field where the game completely by-passed him. Yet he was made the fall-guy by the selectors, being replaced at half-time.

Some of the selection decisions made by the team management were hard to credit. In Jamie Barron and Kevin Moran, Waterford have had the foremost midfield combination in hurling for the last few years and the main driving force behind the team. Yet Moran was placed at wing back last Sunday, and when he was moved to midfield for the second half, Barron was moved to centre forward. The placing of Pauric Mahony on the wing would make you wonder about the basic competence of the current management. With his lack of pace and physicality, Mahony will never make a wing forward of intercounty standard. What he is very good at (as pointed out by Blueflame in an earlier post) is drifting across the half forward line into positions to take off-load passes and shoot for goal. He was never given the opportunity to play this role last Sunday, where just a single extra point would have made all the difference.

The mentors’ game management was also very poor. They left Tadhg de Búrca, one of our top players, sitting in the middle of the half back line throughout the first half, where he was totally by-passed by the Clare game plan. It was only when he was given the job of man-marking Peter Duggan that he stormed into the game. I was surprised that Maurice Shanahan did not start the game, amazed that he did not start the second half and absolutely astonished that he was not introduced until the 65th minute. I was also gobsmacked when Jamie Barron was replaced – one of the few Waterford players capable of the bit of magic that might have saved the game. Meanwhile, the ineffectual Mikey Kearney (just two possessions in the second half, one of which ended in a bad wide) was left on the field.

Probably the biggest error of all made by the selectors was to start Stephen Bennett on the frees and then to leave him on them. Pauric Mahony has been one of the most reliable freetakers, from all distances, in hurling for a number of years now. Bennett showed his fallibility in the league final with, we assumed, normal service being resumed when Mahony took over the frees. Last Sunday Bennett hit two frees wide and dropped two short. I am confident that Mahony would have nailed at least two of these which would have won us the game, other things being equal.

And what was Bennett thinking of when he passed a 65 sideways to Tadhg de Búrca in the 69th minute? If he was trying to engineer a goal then he should have hit the ball to the edge of the square. There was no way de Búrca was going to run through a massed Clare defence, and in fact he lost the ball about 50 metres out from the Clare goal. If Bennett had put that ball over the bar, we would have had a different result.

Another poor decision by Bennett was to try to first time the great pass he got from Kevin Moran early in the game when he should have taken the ball in hand. He also missed a great goal chance in the league final by shooting early rather than bringing the ball closer to goal. But Bennett was not the only player guilty of poor decision-making. Another case in point was the very last play of the game. Stephen O’Keeffe took a backpass from Conor Gleeson and then lashed a long ball down the left sideline where Maurice Shanahan knocked it over the line under pressure from his market. Even if he had won the ball he would have found it difficult to do much with it from where he was. If O’Keeffe had looked up he would have seen Shane McNulty totally unmarked outside him with half the field in front of him completely empty. McNulty could have made ground before either having a pop himself or try to find a player in a better scoring position close to goal. That’s what Kilkenny would have done in this situation.

It should be said that Waterford were also the victims of a fair amount of misfortune during the game, although I have always found that the team with the better attitude always seems to get the breaks in hurling games. John Conlon’s goal should have been disallowed as he took at least seven steps before finishing to the net. The irony of this is that referee John Owens was very strict on even fewer steps later in the game. Then there was the sideline incorrectly given against Waterford in a key position late in the game. Also Clare got at least two points from balls breaking very kindly to unmarked players in the second half, while Kevin Moran’s misplaced pass to Tony Kelly in the 64th minute was an absolute gift.

While Waterford should have won last Sunday, we know they are capable of much better. Remember last year after the defeat, and all the injuries, in Ennis Waterford came out the following week and played Tipperary off the park for most of the game, and were robbed in the end by a disgraceful umpiring decision. Cork never put an ageing Tipperary team under pressure last Sunday, and that is what Waterford have to do next Sunday. They need to revert to their passing game and stretch the Tipperary defence. We need to start Maurice Shanahan, or get him on the field earlier, while there also should be a place for Jack Prendergast who, in his brief cameo last Sunday, showed his ability to get on, and hold up, the ball. Above all, in my view, we need to restore the Barron/Moran midfield and give them the ball to drive at the Tipperary defence.

Some excellent observations here. A lot that I would have to agree with. Cutting off the supply to Kelly is vital and I wonder if that was why Hogan was withdrawn slightly, to possibly cut off areas to pass in. Obviously didn’t work and in hindsight manmarking for the entire game would have possibly been more beneficial. I had noticed the steps for the goal also, but forgotten how harsh Owens was on steps in other occasions throughout the game. Again I’d agree the frees wasn’t a great call, it was added pressure for Bennett. I’m sure he loves being the main man but I think there was some poor decisions on his part the last day as pointed out.
The placing of Moran at wing back is a tough one. He was generally excellent during the league, won a lot of aerial ball. Obviously previous years he had been superb playing midfield also. Considering the opposition the next day I imagine Conor Gleeson will move into defence but if Shane Fives and Noel are both injured then we may still see Moran at wing back.
My reading of the Barron switch at ht was that Clare had dominated possession midfield in the first half and management wanted Barron getting further forward to run at Clare and clip over scores. Kearney wasn’t on much ball midfield but did help to curb the influence of the Clare midfielders somewhat.
On Tadhg, I think he is struggling a little adjusting to a more orthodox centre back. He did well at wing back in the second half and maybe would be better placed there for a spell.
The continuous playing of balls down the same line was puzzling, I put a number of them down to the pressure Clare forwards applied but this wasn’t always the case. Perhaps the tension of the occasion may have been a factor but it was a disappointing aspect of the performance.

Stationmaster

Ah here lads. I like to read/occasionally take part in other counties threads (i'm a clare man) as one of the big advantages boards.ie has, in my view, is that you can reasonably debate on these threads while obviously not betraying your county loyalty (but of course you have to expect some bit of county bias which is only natural).

Whilst givitfong has clearly put a lot of time into his analysis to say in the opening paragraph that 'if Waterford had played anywhere near to their potential they would have won comfortably' and then follow up at the start of the last paragraph 'while Waterford should have won comfortably' is just complete and utter rubbish. Surely, when analyzing a game, if you just completely focus on one team and dismiss anything the other team might have and could also done differently, then the analysis is seriously flawed straightaway?

Yes, of course, there were many parts of last Sunday's game that the Waterford team and management would have been disappointed with but equally Clare could also say the same. The disallowed goal has to be one. I think noone can deny we have all seen the likes of John Conlon's tackle/contact go unpunished in previous games. Jack Brown quite clearly being held coming out with a ball at the end and being penalized then for swinging back and a free in given. These are just two from a clare point of view off the top of my head. My point is that you have to consider these points on both sides to fully and properly analyse a game.

For what it's worth, I think Waterford have a very good chance of winning Sunday. I was absolutely delighted to see all the papers Monday morning blowing up Tipp as world beaters again. Thurles will suit ye a lot more and, if, there are the few positional changes made and one or two personnel changes made to the Waterford team I see ye winning by 4/5 points.

Gardner

Stationmaster wrote: »

Ah here lads. I like to read/occasionally take part in other counties threads (i'm a clare man) as one of the big advantages boards.ie has, in my view, is that you can reasonably debate on these threads while obviously not betraying your county loyalty (but of course you have to expect some bit of county bias which is only natural).

Whilst givitfong has clearly put a lot of time into his analysis to say in the opening paragraph that 'if Waterford had played anywhere near to their potential they would have won comfortably' and then follow up at the start of the last paragraph 'while Waterford should have won comfortably' is just complete and utter rubbish. Surely, when analyzing a game, if you just completely focus on one team and dismiss anything the other team might have and could also done differently, then the analysis is seriously flawed straightaway?

Yes, of course, there were many parts of last Sunday's game that the Waterford team and management would have been disappointed with but equally Clare could also say the same. The disallowed goal has to be one. I think noone can deny we have all seen the likes of John Conlon's tackle/contact go unpunished in previous games. Jack Brown quite clearly being held coming out with a ball at the end and being penalized then for swinging back and a free in given. These are just two from a clare point of view off the top of my head. My point is that you have to consider these points on both sides to fully and properly analyse a game.

For what it's worth, I think Waterford have a very good chance of winning Sunday. I was absolutely delighted to see all the papers Monday morning blowing up Tipp as world beaters again. Thurles will suit ye a lot more and, if, there are the few positional changes made and one or two personnel changes made to the Waterford team I see ye winning by 4/5 points.

don't worry about it mate. he usually counts a few possessions and gives an auld bit of speal about this and that but it's usually 1500 words or thereabouts of complete rubbish but shakespeare to some of the brainless fans that contribute here.

letsseehere14

Stationmaster wrote: »

Ah here lads. I like to read/occasionally take part in other counties threads (i'm a clare man) as one of the big advantages boards.ie has, in my view, is that you can reasonably debate on these threads while obviously not betraying your county loyalty (but of course you have to expect some bit of county bias which is only natural).

Whilst givitfong has clearly put a lot of time into his analysis to say in the opening paragraph that 'if Waterford had played anywhere near to their potential they would have won comfortably' and then follow up at the start of the last paragraph 'while Waterford should have won comfortably' is just complete and utter rubbish. Surely, when analyzing a game, if you just completely focus on one team and dismiss anything the other team might have and could also done differently, then the analysis is seriously flawed straightaway?

Yes, of course, there were many parts of last Sunday's game that the Waterford team and management would have been disappointed with but equally Clare could also say the same. The disallowed goal has to be one. I think noone can deny we have all seen the likes of John Conlon's tackle/contact go unpunished in previous games. Jack Brown quite clearly being held coming out with a ball at the end and being penalized then for swinging back and a free in given. These are just two from a clare point of view off the top of my head. My point is that you have to consider these points on both sides to fully and properly analyse a game.

For what it's worth, I think Waterford have a very good chance of winning Sunday. I was absolutely delighted to see all the papers Monday morning blowing up Tipp as world beaters again. Thurles will suit ye a lot more and, if, there are the few positional changes made and one or two personnel changes made to the Waterford team I see ye winning by 4/5 points.

Yeah I have to agree there. I'm a Limerick man and I am a harsh critic of Clares, but the analysis is built on 2 assumptions and its taken from there to show that Waterford are actually the better team, they were not.

Assumption 1. Waterford are a more talented and experienced team than Clare. (A Clare team with a national league, an All Ireland and has appeared in the last 2 Munster finals, the only team to beat Limerick in the Championship last year)
Assumption 2. Waterford could make improvements that would have yielded the win but ignores any changes/improvements on Clares side that could/would have been made.


I also notice, not this post in particular but analysis in general from all forms lately be they established media or foum posters, that is lazy and I am probably as guilty as anybody.
We (Limerick) have suddenly become by far the best team in pundits eyes after a 1 point AI win, and extra time semi-final win we could have lost and we only came 3rd in Munster last year. The league is not comparable to Championship, it was the same after Galway won in 2017 and Tipp in 2016, they were miles ahead of the rest in pundits eyes. Its lazy.
I was listening to Newstalk last Sunday, Tipp had no chance against Cork because Cork had pace. Suddenly Pace is all that mattered and the most skillfull forward line the country had no chance! After Tipps win, it became a narrative of can they keep it up being such an ageing squad. Are Tipp that old? Are they much older than Clare, Corks or Waterfords squads? I recon theres only a year of two averag eage difference between all the squads.
I think the majority of opinions put forward come from a very 1-dimensional view of the lay of the land and more often than not are wrong.

On Sunday, big changes needed in Waterfords approach to have a chance. There was no cohesion between their forward plan and their buildup play. Clares was much more connected and fluid. It was all very disjointed.
1st year for a new management team so i'd give them a chance to find their feet. They really disappointed me though, I thought they'd do well in Munster this year after a proimising league.

deiseach

Stationmaster wrote: »

Ah here lads. I like to read/occasionally take part in other counties threads (i'm a clare man) as one of the big advantages boards.ie has, in my view, is that you can reasonably debate on these threads while obviously not betraying your county loyalty (but of course you have to expect some bit of county bias which is only natural).

Whilst givitfong has clearly put a lot of time into his analysis to say in the opening paragraph that 'if Waterford had played anywhere near to their potential they would have won comfortably' and then follow up at the start of the last paragraph 'while Waterford should have won comfortably' is just complete and utter rubbish. Surely, when analyzing a game, if you just completely focus on one team and dismiss anything the other team might have and could also done differently, then the analysis is seriously flawed straightaway?

Yes, of course, there were many parts of last Sunday's game that the Waterford team and management would have been disappointed with but equally Clare could also say the same. The disallowed goal has to be one. I think noone can deny we have all seen the likes of John Conlon's tackle/contact go unpunished in previous games. Jack Brown quite clearly being held coming out with a ball at the end and being penalized then for swinging back and a free in given. These are just two from a clare point of view off the top of my head. My point is that you have to consider these points on both sides to fully and properly analyse a game.

For what it's worth, I think Waterford have a very good chance of winning Sunday. I was absolutely delighted to see all the papers Monday morning blowing up Tipp as world beaters again. Thurles will suit ye a lot more and, if, there are the few positional changes made and one or two personnel changes made to the Waterford team I see ye winning by 4/5 points.

Well said. I thought Clare should have had a point early in the first half when Soky kept out an effort that was going over the bar and it ricocheted back across the goal. I'm convinced it passed behind the post before landing back in play. We could go back and forth about the fine margins all day - and will do

PTH2009

This new Munster championship is a curse on us as we always draw the short straw fixture wise

We will be the first team finished there group games with our only break the designated one

Cork have 2 weeks off before they play us and we only have a 6 day turnaround from the Limerick game

Imo We are in danger of losing players cause of this new system. The Leisnter Championship is slightly easier as there will always be a team in it weaker than the other 4.

blueflame

My own personal view is that Clare were marginally the better side on the day last Sunday, but failed to transfer their perceived superiority onto the score board, the outcome being a win by the narrowest of margins.

If one assesses the game evenly leaving aside things like fluidity and possessions, and looks at it in terms of scoring chances made and scores converted etc., there was very little between the teams - Clare hit the ground running, whereas Waterford finished the stronger.

Both sides were guilty of bad wides but Waterford were guilty of a higher number of bad misses, including the number of frees converted. Duggan was spot on all day while Bennett missed two very scoreable ones plus an attempt on goal from a 21, and subsequently messed up the resultant 65 by going short. Both sides had two goal chances O'Donnell took his, and was pulled back on the other, (rightly so, for a third man tackle) The two Bennett's failed to convert their chances. Clare also had two points drop over the bar having hit the post, which on other days couuld have bounced to safety.

At the end of the match Waterford could have won it by a couple of points without any sort of dramatic improvement on their performance, but they did not, and there were some glaring inadequacies in our performance and game management that need to be addressed. I said to a Clare man before the game that at the end of the Munster Championship two very good teams would be out of the All Ireland Series this year and i stick with that view

Neither Cork nor Waterford are out of the Championship yet - 4 games in a six week period can throw up all sorts of issues such as injuries, suspensions and fatigue. Pundits say what they think will get them noticed. Kilkenny were finished after their demolition by Tipp in 2010, Tipp would dominate after 2010 and then after 2016, then Galway and now Limerick, and they all had "by far the best panels " at the beginning of the next year. and were stronger than the previous year.

I don't know who will win Munster, and i don't know who will win the All Ireland but I believe there are 9 teams hell bent on giving their All Ireland Campaign everything, and that realistically this year there are one of 7 teams who could end up winning it. I believe Waterford are in that 7 but it is going to take a mighty effort starting in Thurles next Sunday.

cul beag

Gardner wrote: »

don't worry about it mate. he usually counts a few possessions and gives an auld bit of speal about this and that but it's usually 1500 words or thereabouts of complete rubbish but shakespeare to some of the brainless fans that contribute here.

A bit like the new analyst on the Examiner today you reckon?

grimbergen

PTH2009 wrote: »

This new Munster championship is a curse on us as we always draw the short straw fixture wise

We will be the first team finished there group games with our only break the designated one

Cork have 2 weeks off before they play us and we only have a 6 day turnaround from the Limerick game

Imo We are in danger of losing players cause of this new system. The Leisnter Championship is slightly easier as there will always be a team in it weaker than the other 4.

You're ignoring that Limk and Clare have a worse draw than you this year?

spideyman92

PTH2009 wrote: »

This new Munster championship is a curse on us as we always draw the short straw fixture wise

We will be the first team finished there group games with our only break the designated one

Cork have 2 weeks off before they play us and we only have a 6 day turnaround from the Limerick game

Imo We are in danger of losing players cause of this new system. The Leisnter Championship is slightly easier as there will always be a team in it weaker than the other 4.

You're making a big deal out of nothing really. It was bad last year when it was 4 weeks in a row but there's 2 weeks between the Tipp and Limerick games. Having the Limerick game is better preparation for the Cork game than having an extra week to prepare as far as I'm concerned.

If there's anyone getting shafted by the current structure it's Kerry.

enoughtaken

S O'Keeffe
C Lyons
C Prunty
N Connors
P Mahony
T De Burca
K Moran
J Barron
C Gleeson
T Ryan
A Gleeson
P Mahony
J Prendergast
P Curran
St Bennett

Deisegodeo

S O'Keeffe
C Lyons
C Prunty
N Connors
P Mahony
T De Burca
K Moran
J Barron
C Gleeson
T Ryan
A Gleeson
P Mahony
J Prendergast
P Curran
St Bennett

Deskjockey

Glad to see Tommy Ryan starting. McNulty unlucky not to start, didnt do a huge pile wrong the last day

spideyman92

Deisegodeo wrote: »

S O'Keeffe
C Lyons
C Prunty
N Connors
P Mahony
T De Burca
K Moran
J Barron
C Gleeson
T Ryan
A Gleeson
P Mahony
J Prendergast
P Curran
St Bennett

Maurice is being very hard done by. Came on and changed the game last Sunday. Only for him, the result would have been worse than a 1 point loss.

Gavlor

spideyman92 wrote: »

Maurice is being very hard done by. Came on and changed the game last Sunday. Only for him, the result would have been worse than a 1 point loss.

He’s not. He did well in his 5 minute cameo but he isn’t good enough to start and isn’t fit enough to play 70 minutes. The switch in style suited him but it’s also fairly easy to set up against if you have a couple of days to prep. In saying that, He should have been on a lot earlier last weekend and will hopefully have the same impact on Sunday but for a longer period of time.

Gardner

cul beag wrote: »

A bit like the new analyst on the Examiner today you reckon?

Some load of tripe and back slapping it was

DiscoStew

Deskjockey wrote: »

Glad to see Tommy Ryan starting. McNulty unlucky not to start, didnt do a huge pile wrong the last day

He did ok ya, a little unlucky. But he was probably the main one who played ball down the same line every time he got it.

spideyman92

Gavlor wrote: »

He’s not. He did well in his 5 minute cameo but he isn’t good enough to start and isn’t fit enough to play 70 minutes. The switch in style suited him but it’s also fairly easy to set up against if you have a couple of days to prep. In saying that, He should have been on a lot earlier last weekend and will hopefully have the same impact on Sunday but for a longer period of time.

I think he has been in recent times. As much as I like Curran, he hasn't exactly lit the world alight in his senior intercounty career to justify the start over him. I think he could last longer than people seem to give him credit for.

PTH2009

Sad news over the week in Waterford Club GAA circles. Condolences too all the young man's family, friends and all in Mount Sion. Hopefully this will be spur the lads too victory

This is massive massive game as big as the 2017 All Ireland final

Gavlor

spideyman92 wrote: »

I think he has been in recent times. As much as I like Curran, he hasn't exactly lit the world alight in his senior intercounty career to justify the start over him. I think he could last longer than people seem to give him credit for.

I get that and I’m not trying to knock the lad but I can see why he’s not starting

Mastermcgrath

Stationmaster wrote: »

Ah here lads. I like to read/occasionally take part in other counties threads (i'm a clare man) as one of the big advantages boards.ie has, in my view, is that you can reasonably debate on these threads while obviously not betraying your county loyalty (but of course you have to expect some bit of county bias which is only natural).

Whilst givitfong has clearly put a lot of time into his analysis to say in the opening paragraph that 'if Waterford had played anywhere near to their potential they would have won comfortably' and then follow up at the start of the last paragraph 'while Waterford should have won comfortably' is just complete and utter rubbish. Surely, when analyzing a game, if you just completely focus on one team and dismiss anything the other team might have and could also done differently, then the analysis is seriously flawed straightaway?

Yes, of course, there were many parts of last Sunday's game that the Waterford team and management would have been disappointed with but equally Clare could also say the same. The disallowed goal has to be one. I think noone can deny we have all seen the likes of John Conlon's tackle/contact go unpunished in previous games. Jack Brown quite clearly being held coming out with a ball at the end and being penalized then for swinging back and a free in given. These are just two from a clare point of view off the top of my head. My point is that you have to consider these points on both sides to fully and properly analyse a game.

For what it's worth, I think Waterford have a very good chance of winning Sunday. I was absolutely delighted to see all the papers Monday morning blowing up Tipp as world beaters again. Thurles will suit ye a lot more and, if, there are the few positional changes made and one or two personnel changes made to the Waterford team I see ye winning by 4/5 points.

So what your saying is it’s pure rubbish to say Waterford would have beaten Clare if they played to their potential but give them a great chance of beating Tipp. just how good do you beleive Clare are?

mountgomery burns

PTH2009 wrote: »

Sad news over the week in Waterford Club GAA circles. Condolences too all the young man's family, friends and all in Mount Sion. Hopefully this will be spur the lads too victory

This is massive massive game as big as the 2017 All Ireland final

Big game but not even close to as big as an all Ireland final.

Jjjjjjjjbarry

Disappointed for Shane Bennett but can see why management felt the need to try someone different. Curran must be going well in training as he hasn’t exactly earned a start through game time. Jack P and Tommy on the other hand have more than justified a championship start. Let’s hope the game goes well for all three. Curran and Bennett could have the guile to unlock that Tipp full back line. Prunty’s injury in the league proved an important blooding in time for Calum Lyons and best of luck to him. Hopefully Mahony will be on the frees so we all shut about it.