Waterford GAA thread - mod warning post #1 and #51

hurler on de ditch

deise08 wrote: »

Well that was disappointing to say the least.
Can't have been easy for them to play most of the match one man down and with a ref who was giving absolutely no decision their way, and 'not seeing a lot' when staring right at it.
He'll, even the goal post was against us.

I appreciate people travelling and even the crowd was getting behind them and getting very vocal.
However it can't be nice for the players to see people leaving in numbers with minutes still on the clock.

In all fairness a lot of people that left early around me anyway were from tipp .

JeffKenna

deise08 wrote: »

I appreciate people travelling and even the crowd was getting behind them and getting very vocal.
However it can't be nice for the players to see people leaving in numbers with minutes still on the clock.

I left after that last Tipp goal, let's be honest. ..The team had given up a good 7 or 8 mins before that.

hurler on de ditch

TheScoringGoal wrote: »

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

think he bubbles got 3 off him .callinan got 2 and he was on a yellow ,having a really poor day ,he should have been subbed off long before the red

Callinan scored once, a goal in the last few minutes long after Conor Gleeson was sent off. Jesus we conceded enough without making up other ones.

Ah maybe got mixed up .I'll be back when I get a chance to see it on TV .either way he conceded a lot was on a yellow playing poorly should have off .but looking at the bench you'd struggle .

Gavlor

Can people stop banging on about the golden generation now?

A golden generation doesn’t go almost two years without winning a championship game regardless of the management. 7 defeats on the spin and counting

hoosier_daddy

I’ve said it since the news McGrath was stepping down last year that the damage he done playing that sweeper system would have a huge knock on for the next few years. He’s there sitting on the Sunday game like a smug clown. Lads have forgot how to hurl conventionally, the all Ireland u21/u18 team won it by playing conventionally, now those u21s plus the likes of Moran and Philip Mahoney look like fish out of water. Hopefully they can regroup for limerick and cork.

mickmackmcgoo

Lots of commentators were saying during the week that semple would suit us more than Walsh park . Hmmm.
Watched the limerick cork game there . Cork were excellent. Limerick looked very average which is strange . Peaking for the league may not have helped them . Who knows how it will go in Walsh park

thesaturdayman

hoosier_daddy wrote: »

I’ve said it since the news McGrath was stepping down last year that the damage he done playing that sweeper system would have a huge knock on for the next few years. He’s there sitting on the Sunday game like a smug clown. Lads have forgot how to hurl conventionally, the all Ireland u21/u18 team won it by playing conventionally, now those u21s plus the likes of Moran and Philip Mahoney look like fish out of water. Hopefully they can regroup for limerick and cork.

Oh my f ing god.

So Derek Mcgrath is to blame for this? Somehow? What about how lads play with their clubs!! For the other 6 months of the year? Does every club play with a sweeper as Derek supposedly did - which he didn’t if you actually see what's going on?

But your point is accurate, I blame Derek also for no 24/7, Brexit & for us not winning an all Ireland in 60 years.

That’s the hard question people need to face up and ask & have the balls to answer honestly. Why haven’t we won an all Ireland in 60 years?
I’ll give a starting point;

Club structures - eastern and western boards in a county of 50 clubs & 48 miles - we have more red tape & officials then the White House & kremlin combined.

Championships not fit for purpose. How can club players for eg from tramore, Erin’s own, St. Paul’s, ferrybank or down west kilrossanty, Ardmore or the shamrocks develop? Poxy lobsided championships but it won’t change because it’ll rock the boat at officer level.

County board officials - musical chairs for last 30 years, average age of about 60, totally out of tune with the reality on the ground - clubs dying & amalgamating left right and centre. Most clubs are broke from levies & taxes to help finance the inept county board, gone on since Davy fitz time all through the recession.

Infrastructure- Waterford are a 3rd world Gaa county, our grounds are Delapated & belong in 90s - we have no centre of excellence, plans for one or at executive level any idea of how they work or their benefits. To be fair Walsh park looked ok the last day, scrubbed up well.

Schools / coaching & games - our best years recently have come off back off good harty cup sides in the last 10 years we have gone way way back taking young players out of their clubs and encouraging elitism by way of these endless development squads the emphasis needs to return to schools like it is in cork tipp & in Kerry football.

Get these in order & we can start having cuts at Derek Pauric whoever ya want - they aren’t getting the raw materials & have to operate with shoestring budgets by comparison.

Waterford people need to take their oil & start differentiating the woods from the trees- unless their is a seismic change today is what the future looks like.

Whiplash85

Tipp supporter here. Commiserations today. I thought Waterford were very flat from the get go. I think there was a bit of a hangover from disappointment to Clare defeat in what was your first home Munster championship game in years last Sunday. This was evident from the warm up where players were spilling balls and not clued in. There may be a small bit of feeling sorry for themselves with a couple of calls going against them last week and also Gaelic grounds last year.

3 observations I would have are that with the powers of Brick and Moran waning I don't see any leaders on the team. They will ultimately leave a massive void when they leave the panel . Another is the absence of sideline presence. With McGrath and Dan you always saw a lot of passion and energy. This feeds into the players. Fanning seems very languid in his approach. Discipline is another key thing. Not just in terms of committing fouls etc but also decision making and learning from mistakes. There are a lot of Waterford players that fall into the undisciplined box. It plagued Limerick for years until they hired Caroline Curid as sports physcologist to optimise their potential. Success and All Ireland's have followed her around the country. Waterford could do with someone like that.

Stacksofwacks

Whiplash85 wrote: »

Tipp supporter here. Commiserations today. I thought Waterford were very flat from the get go. I think there was a bit of a hangover from disappointment to Clare defeat in what was your first home Munster championship game in years last Sunday. This was evident from the warm up where players were spilling balls and not clued in. There may be a small bit of feeling sorry for themselves with a couple of calls going against them last week and also Gaelic grounds last year.

3 observations I would have are that with the powers of Brick and Moran waning I don't see any leaders on the team. They will ultimately leave a massive void when they leave the panel . Another is the absence of sideline presence. With McGrath and Dan you always saw a lot of passion and energy. This feeds into the players. Fanning seems very languid in his approach. Discipline is another key thing. Not just in terms of committing fouls etc but also decision making and learning from mistakes. There are a lot of Waterford players that fall into the undisciplined box. It plagued Limerick for years until they hired Caroline Curid as sports physcologist to optimise their potential. Success and All Ireland's have followed her around the country. Waterford could do with someone like that.

Thanks for that but i don't think there is a psychologist in the country that could fix our problems..On Tipp though I was hugely impressed with the slickness of their play, they seem to be back to 2009/10 levels already under Sheedy. Spraying the ball around, always finding the man in space or in the better position, very few wides or aimless balls. I wish we could play in a system like that tho it helps when you have the players to pull it off. If Tipp keep this kind of form up it will be hard to see anyone stopping ye

DiscoStew

Gavlor wrote: »

Can people stop banging on about the golden generation now?

A golden generation doesn’t go almost two years without winning a championship game regardless of the management. 7 defeats on the spin and counting

Hard to disagree with this sadly. Curran looked well below the standard today and we was a huge player for us on those teams. We struggle hugely in the forwards. The ball coming in doesn’t help at times but the amount of times it went in to the full forward line only to come straight back out was depressing. We have no Hoggy type forward that can pull you through when things aren’t going well.
Those calling for Aussie at centre back seem to think that will change everything. Alls I envisage is us being down one of our better forward options from a very limited pick.
Had Curran stuck his goal it could have been different, we were fighting incredibly hard for the third quarter to get back in to it but Forde’s goal was a real sucker blow we never recovered from. Tadhg and Philip going for the one ball for the goal just summed up the day, hopefully Philip isn’t seriously injured.
The only positives I could take were Callum Lyons’ performance, Jack Prendergast’s performance especially in the first half and Tommy Ryan’s contribution. Paudie was much improved from the Clare game.
Unfortunately I think it’s last weeks game is where we may have left it behind us this year.

Road-Hog

Whiplash85 wrote: »

Tipp supporter here. Commiserations today. I thought Waterford were very flat from the get go. I think there was a bit of a hangover from disappointment to Clare defeat in what was your first home Munster championship game in years last Sunday. This was evident from the warm up where players were spilling balls and not clued in. There may be a small bit of feeling sorry for themselves with a couple of calls going against them last week and also Gaelic grounds last year.

3 observations I would have are that with the powers of Brick and Moran waning I don't see any leaders on the team. They will ultimately leave a massive void when they leave the panel . Another is the absence of sideline presence. With McGrath and Dan you always saw a lot of passion and energy. This feeds into the players. Fanning seems very languid in his approach. Discipline is another key thing. Not just in terms of committing fouls etc but also decision making and learning from mistakes. There are a lot of Waterford players that fall into the undisciplined box. It plagued Limerick for years until they hired Caroline Curid as sports physcologist to optimise their potential. Success and All Ireland's have followed her around the country. Waterford could do with someone like that.

Bad beating and hard to understand how a team can become such ‘whipping boys’ in space of 18 months.....I don’t think it’s too much a deficit of skill or ability more to do with as you point out the need of a good tactician and sports physiologist.....?

Are we to become the next Offaly and fade away to our default standard as per the 70/80’s.......too early to say yet but with a different approach there is still a glimmer of hope that we might win a match in next couple of years but not this year.....is it that the players are still trying to get out of the way Derek McGrath set them up......???

PTH2009

Would it be worth giving Billy Nolan a chance next day out on goal

Road-Hog

PTH2009 wrote: »

Would it be worth giving Billy Nolan a chance next day out on goal

There were so many ‘unforced errors’ by guys to borrow a term from tennis court that it’s hard to single out o’keeffe.....but might be no harm to give him a try

5948ai

Give Billy a chance in goal now I think

PTH2009

Bank holiday weekend with daytrippper on too with Limerick being in Walsh Park. Should be a big occasion but the way it's going it one of those get it done and over with it things.

Im negative as u all knw but who is not today after watching that. I haven't missed a league or championship match this year and this was by far the worst day of the year. Lots of problems and it's hard too see where the resolutions are

Stacksofwacks

PTH2009 wrote: »

Bank holiday weekend with daytrippper on too with Limerick being in Walsh Park. Should be a big occasion but the way it's going it one of those get it done and over with it things.

Im negative as u all knw but who is not today after watching that. I haven't missed a league or championship match this year and this was by far the worst day of the year. Lots of problems and it's hard too see where the resolutions are

Why do you need to bring "You" into everything. This isn't facebook. The Limerick game will be interesting, My gut feeling they will be too strong but they will be dissapointed with their showing today and maybe a few doubts will be creeping into their minds, I think a few points either way will as much as there will be in it, if we can dig out a result then at least we can get to the Cork game with something to play for

JeffKenna

PTH2009 wrote: »

Bank holiday weekend with daytrippper on too with Limerick being in Walsh Park. Should be a big occasion but the way it's going it one of those get it done and over with it things.

Im negative as u all knw but who is not today after watching that. I haven't missed a league or championship match this year and this was by far the worst day of the year. Lots of problems and it's hard too see where the resolutions are

I thought you missed one of the League matches as it clashed with some rugby game??

PTH2009

JeffKenna wrote: »

I thought you missed one of the League matches as it clashed with some rugby game??

Nope missing the cork game due too a concert lol

upthedeise16

If Waterford win their 2 games (which of course is very unlikely given our performances to date) and Tipp beat Limerick in Thurles, the most Limerick can achieve is 2 points having lost to Waterford. If Clare beat Cork in Ennis, If Waterford beat Cork the most Cork can achieve is 2 points.

The most unlikely wins here are the 2 Waterford wins, I would genuinely give both Tipp and Clare a big chance in the above mentioned games.

All is not lost, stranger things have happened, just trying to lift some of the gloom after today! 2 wins & 2 favours and Waterford can progress!

Motivator

Having had time to reflect on today and thinking back to last week it’s striking how much of what the players do seems to be done in the moment rather than playing to any sort of pattern or plan. I sat just beyond the Clare subs last Sunday and every time a Clare half back or full back line got on the ball they were calling exactly where the ball would land in the forward line before the player even hit it there. Obviously the Tipperary players had a very similar way of thinking and playing today (as most teams do) but this is totally lacking from our play at all ends of the field. At different stages in the first half I counted 4 times where Waterford defender had the ball in his hand under the Old Stand and a diagonal pass was between the opposite 45 and 21 yard lines - acres of totally wide open space for a runner from the forward line to receive the ball but each time the ball wasn’t played and nobody made the run. This is a basic passage of play that you’d be angry if pair of 16 year olds didn’t try and execute.

At times today there were players walking around the half forward line which allowed Tipperary players to fumble around hand passing the ball across their own final third before having the time and space to look up and deliver a ball down into their forward line. It was basic, basic stuff but it happened in both halves. The fight was gone from Waterford after 30 minutes and despite a rally for a 10 minute period in the second half, they didn’t offer much after that. Tipperary went into a lull for a few minutes before stepping on the gas again and ripping us assunder.

Today was worse than the hammering they gave us in the Munster Finals of 2011 and 2016. Back then, things felt different after a heavy defeat, it felt like a one off. Now these types of performances are almost expected which is an awful thing to say but it’s how I feel about the whole situation. It looked like the players knew the year was gone after 30 minutes. There looks to be baggage there after last year and let’s not forget there’s baggage there after Derek left. It was said when he left that the incoming manager would have an impossible act to follow and it looks that way now too. There aren’t many times in all my years following Waterford that I thought the team stopped short of giving everything - Clare in 2008 is the last time I remember that happening and look at all that happened after that defeat.

Going forward, Fanning and the players have two weeks to try and rescue something from the year. I don’t know what they do from here but they have to try something. There’s a very slim chance we can still qualify and I hope today is not forgotten about but I hope both management and the players can learn from it and use the time wisely.

Jayesdiem

PTH2009 wrote: »

Nope missing the cork game due too a concert lol

Cure or Metallica? If it’s the latter, you’re justified

Stacksofwacks

upthedeise16 wrote: »

If Waterford win their 2 games (which of course is very unlikely given our performances to date) and Tipp beat Limerick in Thurles, the most Limerick can achieve is 2 points having lost to Waterford. If Clare beat Cork in Ennis, If Waterford beat Cork the most Cork can achieve is 2 points.

The most unlikely wins here are the 2 Waterford wins, I would genuinely give both Tipp and Clare a big chance in the above mentioned games.

All is not lost, stranger things have happened, just trying to lift some of the gloom after today! 2 wins & 2 favours and Waterford can progress!

When there's life theres hope! Big thing is to try and pick ourselves up again and somehow beat Limerick. Don't ask me how but if we can do that it would give us a massive boost of confidence going into the Cork game which will be then like a knock out match. As i said earlier Limerick will be hurting after today and nobody will be giving us a chance, so who knows still only halfway in the series and lots of hurling to be played.

JeffKenna

You know in our last 6 championship games PTH2009 has correctly predicted the outcome in 5 of them. I don't think anyone here has that kind of record....

Stacksofwacks

Munster final is even still acheiveable if 4 teams were locked on 4pts but it would require a massive swing on pts difference which is already woeful. There is all your permutations lol

Stacksofwacks

I didnt expect it to go wrong so quick with Fanning. His cagey demeanor dosen't inspire confidence, you look at Austin today its like he didnt want to be there, one thing about McGrath his man management was excellent and was able to manage them as people, I dont think Fanning is the arm around the shoulder type which I think someone like Austin needs. Looking at McGrath on the Sunday game tonight he seemed almost like still like their manager.

Mastermcgrath

Say what you like about Derek McGrath but at least he had the players running through brick walls for him. I don't get the sense with Fanning or his selectors that the players are prepared to die for their cause.

Agree with the poster that said it was last weeks game where the season will be lost, We need to be winning our home games to have any hope, worryingly I don't think the belief was in the players to turn it around after losing that game

2 weeks now to prepare for Limerick. Hoping the home fans come out in force and make it difficult for them. I'm not overly surprised at Limericks defeat today, I thought they've been overhyped in general. Weve seen ourselves that league form counts for jack s**t

But it would take something massive from our lads to beat them. And its hard to see where such a performance is going to come from. Management will need to make changes but it seems t don't really know what their best team is and unsure about where to place some key players

Deisefacts

Thesaturdayman has hit the nail bang on with his post so there’s no point in me repeating it. I’d just like to add that if anyone wants to see what’s wrong with Waterford GAA you just have to attend a primary school match and you’ll learn an awful lot. The children from 4thclass will play anywhere from 12 to 15 games of hurling before they leave school. Looking at other counties, some are playing 8/9 games minimum per their school year(not including semifinals and finals when they get to 6th class). Schools are grouped together here in Waterford based on numbers not on their hurling/football ability and there is no consulting with the relevant teachers in these schools as to how they might be fixed with numbers and ability for the year ahead. Then you have the coaches going to these schools, who are doing their best, that might only be able to deliver their coaching to the children 3/4 times per school year. For the nearly €1m we’ve received from croke park over the last 10yrs(2nd highest behind cork in Munster) this is totally unacceptable and a major question needs to be asked as to what this money was spent on.

If you want to see where the rest of the problems are just take a look at the Waterford GAA website and see the amount of games that were given as walkovers and conceded over the last few months. Then teams are thrown out of championships if they concede 2 games or more. It’s crazy and of no benefit to clubs or to the county on a whole if teams are thrown out of championships. The knock on affect of this is that further down the line teams struggle to field teams and young lads start giving up playing and then the senior club team struggles for number and then we don’t have competition for places on county panels and we suffer as a county.

I don’t want to be constantly knocking the county board. I really believe that they do get involved to try and make a difference but we have an archaic system that eventually breaks you down and they become institutionalized. We need changes and sooner rather then later. But like I said st the start of my post we they’ll come out defending what they’ve done and won’t accept responsibility for the decline in our fortunes. I just wish someone would grow a pair and implement the necessary changes required at board and juvenile level

Mastermcgrath

Deisefacts wrote: »

Thesaturdayman has hit the nail bang on with his post so there’s no point in me repeating it. I’d just like to add that if anyone wants to see what’s wrong with Waterford GAA you just have to attend a primary school match and you’ll learn an awful lot. The children from 4thclass will play anywhere from 12 to 15 games of hurling before they leave school. Looking at other counties, some are playing 8/9 games minimum per their school year(not including semifinals and finals when they get to 6th class). Schools are grouped together here in Waterford based on numbers not on their hurling/football ability and there is no consulting with the relevant teachers in these schools as to how they might be fixed with numbers and ability for the year ahead. Then you have the coaches going to these schools, who are doing their best, that might only be able to deliver their coaching to the children 3/4 times per school year. For the nearly €1m we’ve received from croke park over the last 10yrs(2nd highest behind cork in Munster) this is totally unacceptable and a major question needs to be asked as to what this money was spent on.

If you want to see where the rest of the problems are just take a look at the Waterford GAA website and see the amount of games that were given as walkovers and conceded over the last few months. Then teams are thrown out of championships if they concede 2 games or more. It’s crazy and of no benefit to clubs or to the county on a whole if teams are thrown out of championships. The knock on affect of this is that further down the line teams struggle to field teams and young lads start giving up playing and then the senior club team struggles for number and then we don’t have competition for places on county panels and we suffer as a county.

I don’t want to be constantly knocking the county board. I really believe that they do get involved to try and make a difference but we have an archaic system that eventually breaks you down and they become institutionalized. We need changes and sooner rather then later. But like I said st the start of my post we they’ll come out defending what they’ve done and won’t accept responsibility for the decline in our fortunes. I just wish someone would grow a pair and implement the necessary changes required at board and juvenile level

Its easy to start knit-picking all these flaws in the system after the senior team goes down to a bad defeat. I'm not playing these issues down but what I am saying is that things are not as bad as they are perceived due to the senior team having a bad result. We were in an AI final in 2017 and won an All Ireland u21 in 2016, I don't remember anyone complaining about the lack of hurling in primary schools then.

Looking at our minor teams performances this weekend and last, yes we lost both games but were there or thereabouts on the scoreboard so we must be doing something right. I saw another poster even suggest that we are now the next Offaly.... Offalys minors have been getting hammerings as much as their senior team. Time for some perspective.

Don't anyone tell me that we haven't been producing good hurlers in this county and that we shouldn't be contesting fiercely to get out of Munster. Its a savage tough championship and its a game of inches. I feel our immediate shortcomings are on the touchline (once again) and the county board should review their appointment of last year and ask have they really gone all out to get the best people for the job. If not, what are they going to do about it.

JesusRef

Last years 21s did very well against Cork
Minors were competive last year and to be fair again this year (in comparison to the good old days when always got tanked underage, bar a few exceptions) so we produced good senior teams from worse.

The decision to do away with a combined schools team in the harty cup is really hurting Waterford.

Talented Hurlers from small clubs aren't getting the chance to play at a high enough level with their club or School.

A Hurling 365 program needs to be introduced like in Wexford.

There has been an huge increase in players coming from non traditional hurling areas as can be seen by players representing our underage teams.

But the county needs more from Lismore, Mt Sion, Tallow, Dungarvan and Abbeyside again.

Mastermcgrath

JesusRef wrote: »

The decision to do away with a combined schools team in the harty cup is really hurting Waterford.

Talented Hurlers from small clubs aren't getting the chance to play at a high enough level with their club or School.

Agree with this entirely. They were a victim of theirown success but that was a once off exceptional team that won 2 Harty's in a row with the likes of De Burca, Curran, Devine, Dunford etc.

The Munster board withdrew these teams on the argument that Dungarvan Colleges had an unfair advantage, but the complaints were coming from some of the more traditional Harty schools with catchment area's bigger than the 2 Dungarvan schools combined. The reason given was that the purpose of the amalgamated schools was only ever a short term plan to allow these schools to develop and build up a traditional at that level but now that they had reached the required level there was no need for them anymore... or some BS like that

Jayesdiem

Mastermcgrath wrote: »

Agree with this entirely. They were a victim of theirown success but that was a once off exceptional team that won 2 Harty's in a row with the likes of De Burca, Curran, Devine, Dunford etc.

The Munster board withdrew these teams on the argument that Dungarvan Colleges had an unfair advantage, but the complaints were coming from some of the more traditional Harty schools with catchment area's bigger than the 2 Dungarvan schools combined. The reason given was that the purpose of the amalgamated schools was only ever a short term plan to allow these schools to develop and build up a traditional at that level but now that they had reached the required level there was no need for them anymore... or some BS like that

To be fair to them, I agree with that. An amalgamated school team is just wrong. Why not just enter the county minor team as “Waterford Colleges”? You need to draw a line and the front gate of the individual schools seems a logical place to do that.

carq

Tough match to take in.
We were in trouble before the sending off and i think we would have gotten beaten well with 15 men.

Puckout strategy was non existent - especially in first half.
It seem the strategy was to avoid the Tipp half back line at all costs, but tipp also pushed up on the backs which meant SOK repeated in pinging balls to marked men or men located on the sidelines with no space to go if they win it.
Second half this improved somehow, but SOK takes so long that any good runs the half forward makes delay results in them being marked before SOK sees them. Change is needed here.


old habits die hard. Inability of the forward lines to win primary possession. Barron running sown blind alleys. Players slipping constantly if they do win the ball. Back line 10 yards behind the man they are marking. The ease Tipp could put in diagonal ball to a 'marked man' was insane. Turning point of the game for me was TDB taking a quick free 70 yards out. Came to nothing and tipp went up 10 seconds later and gleeson got sent off. why they didnt opt for the point i will never know.

Its not over yet - cork have showed what can happen to a written off team but i fear this hammering will put paid to any chances even if 2 wins somehow happen.

Deisefacts

Just saw something on another website, if we finish bottom of Munster and Kerry win the Macdonagh cup we’ve to play them to see who’ll play in the all Ireland series next year.

blueflame

Hard to stomach yet another humiliation yesterday, the way we capitulated in the last 15 minutes was quite unbelievable and totally unacceptable, especially when scoring difference could play a big part eventually.

I agree with a lot of the comments made by "Saturdayman", primarily the way our boards operate and some of the people that we have in positions and how they appear to be more about looking after themselves than what is best for Waterford.

That being said we have produced a considerable amount of "raw material" with our minors generally being competitive consistently. Yesterday was another example of how we have young lads who can step up to the plate, lads like Calum Lyons, and Jack Prendergast who were seldom mentioned on this forum prior to this year, turned in solid performances yesterday.

Also quite an amount of money has been put into preparation with training camps abroad etc., we are not that far behind other counties in this regard, so how such a collapse. Please do not tell me that player for player Tipp are an 18 point better side. Can you see any other team in Munster shipping such a defeat to Tipp - maybe I am wrong but I don't think so.

Cork shipped a bad defeat to Tipp last week and it would have been easy for them to go to Limerick yesterday and put a performance and accept a narrow defeat at the hands of the All Ireland favorites, but would this be acceptable in Cork? - not a chance, they went out yesterday and they manned up , they did not look for excuses or accept a narrow moral victory, why because they are Cork and failure to live up to that expectation is not acceptable. They put their lives on the line ready to die for the jersey and their county .

I hate to say it but there seems to be a mental frailty inherent in Waterford people, something that manifests itself in other ways. We accept mediocrity and look to others to blame. It is the same when it comes to our politicians, hospitals and our developments. We accept criticism and defeat too easily, and are not willing to die for the cause, we simply do not believe in our county. it is easier to blame someone else than look inwards. Yesterday our forwards in general were brushed aside, Tipp defenders out muscled them every time with more often than not we ending up on the ground looking for frees. The result being that Tipp forwards were then free to stroll out of defence and place an endless supply of quality ball into forwards that had an acre of space in front of them. This was not about touch or hurling, this was about one team being driven to prove a point, while the other team were hoping to avoid a defeat.

Brian Corocoran raised this point about Waterford many years ago in his autobiography.

This Waterford side has all the skill and talent needed, but they need to be driven - is Pauric the man to do this, i honestly don't know, it is early days, but yesterday is a watershed, as a team we can lie down and accept what happened and pretend it was a once off until it happens again, or as a team we can rewatch that video time and time again until the hurt is so bad that you become driven to make sure it never happens again.

One comment on the team selection that worries me was why did we change from the format that we have been playing, Why was Prunty not left at full back to pick up Callinan, why was Glesson moved to full back from midfield. Was it because of Gleeson's performance last year against Tipp? If that was the case why did we not put Aussie to Center Back and Brick to wing back after their performance last year? Whey didn't we put DJ Foran in at wing forward? Why because this year is a different year, and this more than anything worried me about our management - we showed fear yet again We need to man up all across the board.

I cannot leave this post with a comment for our minors and how unlucky they were. I have said above about blaming others, but cannot ignore the performance of the referee in the minor game yesterday and in particular his sending off of Rory Furlong, (probably our most influential player) was ridiculous. Maybe i had blue tinted glasses on, but first first booking came from a questionable penalty where the Tipp forward barged between three payers going to ground straight away looking for a penalty knowing he was never going to get a swing on the hurley. How he singled out one man for a booking was laughable. The second booking came as the Tipp player was going down the sideline loosing control of the ball and falling over and as Furlong came across their momentum brought them together, he did not dip the shoulder, follow through or leave in the hurley. It was again a questionable free never mind a second yellow, but unfortunately it was the minor game and you wont get the pundits examining it and raising questions about it the standard of refereeing. About two minutes later two players collided, a Waterford player picked up the ball thirty yards from goal ready to strike for a point and he blows the whistle immediately, giving Waterford an indirect free which frmo 30 years. I know the protocols for head injuries, but the three seconds was not going to make a difference , compare this with the senior game when Philip Mahony got flattened and was lying prostrate on the ground, play was left go ahead and Tipp goaled , the inconsistency amongst referees is incredible, but to my mind in general the big decisions tend to favour the big three when they are invovled.

thesaturdayman

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

I didnt expect it to go wrong so quick with Fanning. His cagey demeanor dosen't inspire confidence, you look at Austin today its like he didnt want to be there, one thing about McGrath his man management was excellent and was able to manage them as people, I dont think Fanning is the arm around the shoulder type which I think someone like Austin needs. Looking at McGrath on the Sunday game tonight he seemed almost like still like their manager.

Dont want to single anyone out, but seriously Austins excuses wore thin a long time ago. His place in the team now is totally questionable for me. If he was on my team id question his team ethic, hunger to work amongst other things. I am sure DMcG tried the arm around the shoulder approach, hard to say that worked consistently.

There comes a time the excuses run out & people need to be held to account. He is one of our main men we depend on, him, barron TDB SOK & prob moran still. I couldnt fault the others for effort, or for a lack of trying and persisting even when things went to pot.

Whiplash85

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

Thanks for that but i don't think there is a psychologist in the country that could fix our problems..On Tipp though I was hugely impressed with the slickness of their play, they seem to be back to 2009/10 levels already under Sheedy. Spraying the ball around, always finding the man in space or in the better position, very few wides or aimless balls. I wish we could play in a system like that tho it helps when you have the players to pull it off. If Tipp keep this kind of form up it will be hard to see anyone stopping ye

Yeah I'm not so sure to be honest. It is still May and Cork have won the last 2 munster finals and didn't reach an All Ireland in those years. There is plenty to be said for finishing third in Munster. I think Cork will have a massive say. They could put a guy who was in the terrace the previous Sunday in centre back, bring on subs of the calibre of Cadogan, Kingston, Joyce etc, drop O Mahoney. They have addressed the depth problems they had last year when they had to bring back on injured players in extra time against Limerick.

What we have seen with this munster championship is perceived marked levels of intensity and work rate that is being cited as reasons for winning and losing games. Waterford on both days so far have only hurled at championship intensity for half an hour. When Sheedy departed with Tipp he was always in the background doing media work andcasting aspersions on the incumbents. I see pretty much the same thing with Derek McGrath now and often it casts a shadow on the existing manager team. Being a school teacher like john Kiely McGrath was able to relate to the players and man manage them to good effect. I dont think the waterford players are getting that same arm around the shoulder with Fanning and they dont look a happy bunch. Waterfords game plan was always based on crowding the middle third. Whatever about sweepers they made sure that supply lines were cut off or pressure applied. It was in marked contrast yesterday with Bonnar finding himself in acres of room for first goal and second goal not much better. Its a real stick or twist scenario now for Waterford. Do you totally jettison the defensive system that was cultivated over the last few years and made you contenders or do you break free from that and try and evolve in another system over the next couple of years into a more traditional attacking team. Ultimately it boils down to what players you have at your disposal and how to get the most out of them.

HillFarmer

We don't have the forwards for me.

How many of our current forwards would make it on the Tip/ Cork Limerick team?
We have no ball winners up front.

I think our back six can mix it with the best and our midfield when we play it tight.
Tough on the lads as they have trained hard but I can't see us getting any result in the last two games.

JesusRef

HillFarmer wrote: »

We don't have the forwards for me.

How many of our current forwards would make it on the Tip/ Cork Limerick team?
We have no ball winners up front.

I think our back six can mix it with the best and our midfield when we play it tight.
Tough on the lads as they have trained hard but I can't see us getting any result in the last two games.

That's the thing we have no forwards, for the backs it is like hitting the ball off a wall, it is coming back as fast,
From SOKs puck outs and the backs clearances
We have no one to give it too.
It puts our backs under savage pressure all the time.

In the first half of Tommy Ryan throw up his hand and got the ball inside the 21 he was through on goal.

If forwards can't win possession or catch the ball they can't win frees or score.

It's bleak - the great minors and 21s have gone a mile backwards, think of Shane Bennett and Aussie when they broke on to it compared to now

hardybuck

HillFarmer wrote: »

We don't have the forwards for me.

How many of our current forwards would make it on the Tip/ Cork Limerick team?
We have no ball winners up front.

I think our back six can mix it with the best and our midfield when we play it tight.
Tough on the lads as they have trained hard but I can't see us getting any result in the last two games.

I think the forwards are at fault themselves, but I'm also going to focus on their coaching and the type of ball the backs are instructed to deliver.

I had a better look at the Clare game and need to examine yesterday in more detail, but the runs which our inside forwards make are so simple and repetitive that you'd expect it at underage level.

It's no surprise that they did a bit of damage in the league, and since the league semi final I think onwards they've been shut down by every team they've faced. They've figured out what Waterford are doing and prepared for it. There isn't a major Plan B except for throwing Maurice in for 15 mins.

In addition, the ball going into them isn't good enough in my opinion - too 50:50. For the last few years now we've been bombing ball out of defence without a top ball winner in there, and you'd have to wonder about what instructions guys are getting, and their ability to read a game when they're out there.

Watching Limerick in the league final, they drilled precision ball up the field and didn't waste possession. Their touch was excellent, and they pinged three precise balls in a situation where Waterford would try and launch a hit and hope ball. This might suit the Waterford team better - particularly if they have good link players like Barron who has unreal work-rate.

But I'm sure these lads on the sideline have considered all this and decided that the current approach is best.

blueflame

Is that not the big question - Aussie and Shane Bennett in particular as 20 year olds were terrorizing defences, why has their hurling and physicality gone so far backwards. Patrick Curran is another. Are we not coaching and working with lads about taking the ball at pace in the forwards and how to get their body shape right when trying to catch a ball, or is our delivery from our backs that poor!!

We seem to be fixated with needing to be big, Bubble's is small and he wins his fair share of ball, Richie Hogan is tiny yet he is capable of winning his own ball. Shane O'Donnell, Alan Cadogan, even Patrick Horgan is not a big man by any means, the list goes on. Our training and coaching seems to focus more on patterns and formations than actually working on the basics. Tipp were excellent at doing the simple things right yesterday, constanlty moving looking for space, excellent first touch and moving the ball quickly up to a point where they were able to release fast diagonal balls into space behind our half back line, almost impossible to defend against.

We on the other hand had very poor first touch, over carried running into congested spaces and hitting aimless balls under pressure. One typical example was Pauric Mahony picked up a ball and went to run through the middle. Aussie was standing on his shoulder and just stood still while three Tipp players chased Mahony down, (thankfully fouling him) I am not picking on Aussie, but just citing this as one example of our lack of teamwork and support play.

spideyman92

HillFarmer wrote: »

We don't have the forwards for me.

How many of our current forwards would make it on the Tip/ Cork Limerick team?
We have no ball winners up front.

I think our back six can mix it with the best and our midfield when we play it tight.
Tough on the lads as they have trained hard but I can't see us getting any result in the last two games.

It's incredibly frustrating because you see other teams' forwards taking balls, turning and running with ease whereas our lads seem to either fumble the catch or be a meter behind the opposition defender.

willbeuptuesday

As I watched that game playout yesterday I could not but compare the talent we have at our disposal with Tipperary, if we are honest we are way off. This is only my opinion as I am an blow in to Waterford but I am heavily involved in juvenile coaching. The standard of leagues are appalling from underage to senior. There is no meaningful leagues for players to develop in and the championships are farcical, everyone is a winner! You can lose games and still qualify, I mean what do you have to do not to qualify for a quarterfinal in Waterford? The structures are playing into the hands of other sports, this whole east/west thing is like a script from Fr Ted. We need meaningful games played regularly and you will see a big improvement in the standards of hurling. As far as I can see people have stopped going to club games because games have no meaning, the amount of walkovers given weekly or games postponed in Waterford is scandalous. We need a radical re-think and the entire structure of Waterford GAA and bold decisions need to be made in the best interest of the Waterford GAA and not vocal clubs. We have at least 6 secondary schools with over 1000 pupils in them and how competitive are they? Put the resources into the schools and you will see and huge improvement in a short space of time. Anyone else think we need to change something?

Deise_2012

We’re 200/1 to win the All Ireland. I know we’ve only got 2 games left but Jesus Christ that’s laughable

thesaturdayman

willbeuptuesday wrote: »

As I watched that game playout yesterday I could not but compare the talent we have at our disposal with Tipperary, if we are honest we are way off. This is only my opinion as I am an blow in to Waterford but I am heavily involved in juvenile coaching. The standard of leagues are appalling from underage to senior. There is no meaningful leagues for players to develop in and the championships are farcical, everyone is a winner! You can lose games and still qualify, I mean what do you have to do not to qualify for a quarterfinal in Waterford? The structures are playing into the hands of other sports, this whole east/west thing is like a script from Fr Ted. We need meaningful games played regularly and you will see a big improvement in the standards of hurling. As far as I can see people have stopped going to club games because games have no meaning, the amount of walkovers given weekly or games postponed in Waterford is scandalous. We need a radical re-think and the entire structure of Waterford GAA and bold decisions need to be made in the best interest of the Waterford GAA and not vocal clubs. We have at least 6 secondary schools with over 1000 pupils in them and how competitive are they? Put the resources into the schools and you will see and huge improvement in a short space of time. Anyone else think we need to change something?

nail on the head - see my previous post page or two back.

however turkeys dont vote for christmas & the cronies need to be all looked after for tickets - so nothing is going to change.

Fred C Dobbs

Okay, we're currently bottom of the table (and will probably be still there come early June) but apocalyptic predictions about going the way of Offaly are over the top.

Don't get me wrong, I was as disgusted and embarrassed as anybody yesterday. The inadequacies of the players and management have already been laid bare on this forum. For whatever reason, I'm led to believe there is a lot of 'unrest' in the camp (even before yesterday).

If we get beaten by a wounded Limerick and re-energised Cork, you might see a new management team in place come 2020 (Hartley or preferably, Sean Power).

hardybuck

Waterford last won a Championship game on August 13th 2017.

Despite that it'd be a farce if the current management team didn't get another year, unless they get absolutely spanked in the remaining games.

mickmackmcgoo

Fred C Dobbs wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I was as disgusted and embarrassed as anybody yesterday. The inadequacies of the players and management have already been laid bare on this forum. For whatever reason, I'm led to believe there is a lot of 'unrest' in the camp (even before yesterday).

Heard something similar up in thurles before the match yesterday. Hearing 2 members of the panel are only there because of pressure from family to stay involved . Rumours always fly when a team is struggling . Good management is very important and ours look out of their depth . Fanning was the last option after the debacle with pat Ryan and Matty Kenny.

deiseach

Great, we're at the dúirt bean liom go ndúirt bean léi stage of proceedings. It's gonna be a long fortnight...

DiscoStew

blueflame wrote: »

One comment on the team selection that worries me was why did we change from the format that we have been playing, Why was Prunty not left at full back to pick up Callinan, why was Glesson moved to full back from midfield. Was it because of Gleeson's performance last year against Tipp? If that was the case why did we not put Aussie to Center Back and Brick to wing back after their performance last year? Whey didn't we put DJ Foran in at wing forward? Why because this year is a different year, and this more than anything worried me about our management - we showed fear yet again We need to man up all across the board.

All last week posters on here called for Conor Gleeson to be moved to the backs. He was moved in on a man marking role on Bubbles seemingly but was getting roasted and was moved out with Prunty moving in. How that can be equated to him playing their last year is beyond me. Bubbles was just too good for him yesterday unfortunately, he was moved pretty quickly in an attempt to rectify the situation but unfortunately the damage continued.
My vantage point wasn’t spectacular however so I could be mistaking Bubbles and Forde, both were doing a lot of damage early on.

DiscoStew

Whiplash85 wrote: »

Yeah I'm not so sure to be honest. It is still May and Cork have won the last 2 munster finals and didn't reach an All Ireland in those years. There is plenty to be said for finishing third in Munster. I think Cork will have a massive say. They could put a guy who was in the terrace the previous Sunday in centre back, bring on subs of the calibre of Cadogan, Kingston, Joyce etc, drop O Mahoney. They have addressed the depth problems they had last year when they had to bring back on injured players in extra time against Limerick.

What we have seen with this munster championship is perceived marked levels of intensity and work rate that is being cited as reasons for winning and losing games. Waterford on both days so far have only hurled at championship intensity for half an hour. When Sheedy departed with Tipp he was always in the background doing media work andcasting aspersions on the incumbents. I see pretty much the same thing with Derek McGrath now and often it casts a shadow on the existing manager team. Being a school teacher like john Kiely McGrath was able to relate to the players and man manage them to good effect. I dont think the waterford players are getting that same arm around the shoulder with Fanning and they dont look a happy bunch. Waterfords game plan was always based on crowding the middle third. Whatever about sweepers they made sure that supply lines were cut off or pressure applied. It was in marked contrast yesterday with Bonnar finding himself in acres of room for first goal and second goal not much better. Its a real stick or twist scenario now for Waterford. Do you totally jettison the defensive system that was cultivated over the last few years and made you contenders or do you break free from that and try and evolve in another system over the next couple of years into a more traditional attacking team. Ultimately it boils down to what players you have at your disposal and how to get the most out of them.

I think Bonnar found himself in acres for the goal simply by 2 men going up for a high ball. One had to tell the other to stay down and cover, unfortunately it didn’t happen and Philip got injured along with Tipp sticking the goal. Very costly error.