Progressive Ireland -- what's next?

kunst nugget

pumpkin4life wrote: »

And helping out big pharma companies who gave him a big pile of money to get abortion put through, don't forget that one either!

Aye, he just snuck abortion in there without any of us noticing…

pickarooney

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Why would women not want their partners, brothers and sons to have the right to enjoy a healthy, loving relationship with their children?

Why would anyone not want that, for that matter?

pumpkin4life

kunst nugget wrote: »

Aye, he just snuck abortion in there without any of us noticing…

He did indeed!

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/evofem-biosciences-boss-thomas-lynch-raised-funds-for-leo-varadkar-3j9pg0qsv

wakka12

NIMAN wrote: »

Has that not be a bit of a failure where it has been tried?

I had heard bits about a canadian town/city that tried it with success. https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/nze99z/the-mincome-experiment-dauphin
Couldn't find any more official sources but don't have time to look properly right now Im gonna look later, but I doubt its complete bs like. I think it seems like an interesting concept that should definitely be at least tried here, if it is a failure, then it can always be stopped, no harm done.

Personally I don't understand how it works, I would have thought businesses and such would simply proportionally increase the cost of their product/service by how much extra money everyone is now getting and basically it would result in nothing changing, but maybe theres more to it than that

Theres also plans to implement it in 3 large cities in ontario very soon also, so it'll be interesting to see how that works out. And why was the Finnish trial run halted ?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

kunst nugget

pumpkin4life wrote: »

He did indeed!

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/evofem-biosciences-boss-thomas-lynch-raised-funds-for-leo-varadkar-3j9pg0qsv

So, it wasn't the Citizen's assembly's recommendations on what our legislation should be in relation to abortion or the two thirds majority win in a referendum, it was this fundraiser that changed our laws on the termination of pregnancy… I see it all now!

I'm not a fan at all of lobbying of our politicians by business interests in this manner and its something that needs to be look at but the wheels were already in motion in regard to this referendum with the Citizen's assembly and the FG/Labour coalition government.

facehugger99

Deleted User wrote: »

The state will need to buy out the schools then - the vast majority of which are owned by a private business known as the Roman Catholic Church.

Will Irish people be willing to support the state spending billions on this purchase, when it can continue to use RCC and CoI etc property for state educational needs?


As things stand it's beyond cheeky for people to demand the removal of religious symbols from RCC properties that are being used by a (very grateful) Irish state as schools.

The religious orders still owe the state 100's of millions of euros from the child abuse inquiry and redress scheme.

Because of the way the State was established, it will be very difficult to prise the religious orders out of our education system - that was quite deliberate decision taken in the early days of the State that we're paying for now.

Tell me how

kunst nugget wrote:

So, it wasn't the Citizen's assembly's recommendations on what our legislation should be in relation to abortion or the two thirds majority win in a referendum, it was this fundraiser that changed our laws on the termination of pregnancy… I see it all now!

Citizens assembly is something I'm not entirely sold on.

We elect the Dail and also the seanad (to lesser degree). Why do we need a 3rd group that is supposedly completely unbiased and informed.

pumpkin4life

kunst nugget wrote: »

So, it wasn't the Citizen's assembly's recommendations on what our legislation should be in relation to abortion or the two thirds majority win in a referendum, it was this fundraiser that changed our laws on the termination of pregnancy… I see it all now!

I'm not a fan at all of lobbying of our politicians by business interests in this manner and its something that needs to be look at but the wheels were already in motion in regard to this referendum with the Citizen's assembly and the FG/Labour coalition government.

I didn't say that.

But it's funny his opinion on abortion magically changed right around the time evofem drove a big dumptruck of money to his house and the referendum was set to go by then.

People are going on about the no campaign's funding (completely fair point btw) but when Leo Varadker takes money from pharmaceutical companies and the previous head of the HSE sat on the board of EvoFem, that's a bit dodge no?

If this was any other country in the world, this would have been big news. But not Ireland lol.

ThinkProgress

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Euthanasia - I for one don't want to rot for years in a nursing home.

https://exitinternational.net/

There you go... kill yourself responsibly! (or don't - your choice)

kunst nugget

Tell me how wrote: »

Citizens assembly is something I'm not entirely sold on.

We elect the Dail and also the seanad (to lesser degree). Why do we need a 3rd group that is supposedly completely unbiased and informed.

I actually think it's a great way to get issues discussed to gauge the mood of a nation in relation to constitutional reform. I'm definitely all for it

Franz Von Peppercorn

facehugger99 wrote: »

The religious orders still owe the state 100's of millions of euros from the child abuse inquiry and redress scheme.

Because of the way the State was established, it will be very difficult to prise the religious orders out of our education system - that was quite deliberate decision taken in the early days of the State that we're paying for now.

The issue there isn’t the way the state was established but who owns what.

Franz Von Peppercorn

kunst nugget wrote: »

I actually think it's a great way to get issues discussed to gauge the mood of a nation in relation to constitutional reform. I'm definitely all for it

Seemed to work so far.

Franz Von Peppercorn

NIMAN wrote: »

I found it kinda very Irish-like that the day after we made the progressive step of repealing the 8th, we had another 'lets sell the babies' scandal with church involvement.

I think that was just a daily outrage.

Tell me how

kunst nugget wrote:

I actually think it's a great way to get issues discussed to gauge the mood of a nation in relation to constitutional reform. I'm definitely all for it

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote:

Seemed to work so far.

I think I'm concerned that it's more open to manipulation by strong individuals or potentially silent forces who try to coach or direct a narrative behind the scenes.

The idea is fine but particularly because of the link between the 8th proposed legislation and the assembly, I think it'll get more...attention, in future.

I'm just uneasy when we look at the efforts that are going on to influence things these days.

Ush1

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I don't think so, the abortion one was a particularly "sexy" one, as was the SSM referendum.

When it comes to actual politics, legislation and who they will vote for, they aren't so bothered.

jiltloop

jiltloop wrote: »

We're still lagging way behind on Father's rights.

Definitely should be a move towards more secular education, I don't agree with removing compulsory Irish. I hated it when I was in school but that's more because of the way it's taught. That's where the change should happen, teach it like French, German etc. Learning poems and essay as Gaeilge as if it's English is a ridiculous way to teach a language that is not already spoken conversationally by most.

Yeah the guardianship changes recently were a step but they should have equal footing

Kumejima

pickarooney wrote: »

Why would women not want their partners, brothers and sons to have the right to enjoy a healthy, loving relationship with their children?

Why would anyone not want that, for that matter?

In order to be able to punish, control and extort money from their ex-partners.
Its the female version of domestic violence. Yet how many women ever have their kids removed, get kicked out of their own house or see jail for it?
Virtually none. Thanks Patriarchy

kunst nugget

Tell me how wrote: »

I think I'm concerned that it's more open to manipulation by strong individuals or potentially silent forces who try to coach or direct a narrative behind the scenes.

How would this be more of an issue with the Citizen's Assembly than with our Dail or Seanad - the Dail in particular having been held to ransom by minority interests several times in its history when it comes to the formation of governments.

Tell me how wrote: »

The idea is fine but particularly because of the link between the 8th proposed legislation and the assembly, I think it'll get more...attention, in future.

I'm just uneasy when we look at the efforts that are going on to influence things these days.

It's just one step in a process and it hasn't got any power in terms of actually being able to directly affect our legislation but I think it serves a good purpose in opening up a national dialogue. We still retain the power to vote against any of the recommendations if they make it referenda.

pickarooney

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

And do these miserable few self-interested people outnumber the decent skins who wouldn't object to children and their fathers spending more time together, in Ireland?

whisky_galore

whisky_galore wrote: »

Dev wasn't an unelected dictator, the Irish people put him in his position.
They were perfectly happy with a 'God-fearing Gaelic Ireland'

And it needs to be pointed out time and time again that under de Valera's Fianna Fáil governments in the 1930s some 132,000 homes were built by the Irish state for Ireland's poor. Neither the Dev haters nor the political parties they support then or now have made such an incredible inroad on poverty in Ireland. Real stuff, not bullshít, cost-free, feel good, middle class "rights".

This house building was initiated during the Great Depression (and Economic War with Britain). Besides being addicted to a right-wing free market ideology that abhors "interference in the free market" (unless it's to bail out private financial institutions), what's FG's excuse for its inaction in the housing crisis 2012-2018?


What makes it even more extraordinary is how egregiously rightwing the Cumann na nGaedhael/Fine Gael governments were before de Valera took over in 1932. CnaG's policies were notoriously low taxation-low public services so the big farmers and the like just got richer amid the poverty. Dublin especially was full of slums. In the 1920s people still died of starvation in Ireland, and a huge 'red scare' campaign was waged by CnaG/FG and the RCC against FF and de Valera in that 1932 election (like this, and this).

Up until 1938 de Valera's governments were by far the most socially progressive governments since the foundation of this state. No government, before or since (even de Valera's own governments) had the energy, drive, devotion and radical sense of justice to make so many changes. Even the "special position" of the RCC put in the Bunreacht was, in fact, a compromise: the RCC wanted them to become the state religion as Anglicanism was/is in England, but de Valera refused this and 'special position of the RCC' was the compromise.

Tell me how

kunst nugget wrote:

How would this be more of an issue with the Citizen's Assembly than with our Dail or Seanad - the Dail in particular having been held to ransom by minority interests several times in its history when it comes to the formation of governments.

Only in the sense that members of the dail/seanad are generally under the public eye more.

mcmoustache

pumpkin4life wrote: »

And helping out big pharma companies who gave him a big pile of money to get abortion put through, don't forget that one either!

If you want to turn the referendum into some big pharma conspiracy you're going to need to put a bit more meat on it.

You'll need timelines and alternative narratives for reality. Some photo shopped pictures and references to George Soros will help too. There are some others in the CT forum that might be able to help and I'd recommend that you do because so far, your attempt to spin this as Varadkar pulling a fast one just isn't that good.

pumpkin4life

mcmoustache wrote: »

If you want to turn the referendum into some big pharma conspiracy you're going to need to put a bit more meat on it.

You'll need timelines and alternative narratives for reality. Some photo shopped pictures and references to George Soros will help too. There are some others in the CT forum that might be able to help and I'd recommend that you do because so far, your attempt to spin this as Varadkar pulling a fast one just isn't that good.

Sources below:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/evofem-biosciences-boss-thomas-lynch-raised-funds-for-leo-varadkar-3j9pg0qsv

http://www.thejournal.ie/tony-obrien-new-hse-director-general-535272-Jul2012/

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/businessman-hosts-secret-supper-fundraiser-for-varadkar-35761133.html

https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/government-planning-system-of-free-contraception-after-referendum-468105.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/why-did-varadkar-change-his-mind-on-abortion-1.3373470


What, no Brietbart? No Fox News? :O

Geuze

Deleted User wrote: »

And it needs to be pointed out time and time again that under de Valera's Fianna Fáil governments ]in the 1930s some 132,000 homes were built by the Irish state for Ireland's poor[/url]. Neither the Dev haters nor the political parties they support then or now have made such an incredible inroad on poverty in Ireland. Real stuff, not bullshít, cost-free, feel good, middle class "rights".

This house building was initiated during the Great Depression (and Economic War with Britain). Besides being addicted to a right-wing free market ideology that abhors "interference in the free market" (unless it's to bail out private financial institutions), what's FG's excuse for its inaction in the housing crisis 2012-2018?

Well said.

I define progress as more houses, reasonable rent/prices, short waiting times in healthcare.

This is what politicians should be doing every day, day in, day out.

OldNotWIse

Get rid of lazy, institutionalized middle management in the HSE who do F*ck all.

mcmoustache

pumpkin4life wrote: »

Sources below:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/evofem-biosciences-boss-thomas-lynch-raised-funds-for-leo-varadkar-3j9pg0qsv

http://www.thejournal.ie/tony-obrien...35272-Jul2012/

https://www.independent.ie/irish-new...-35761133.html

https://www.irishexaminer.com/irelan...um-468105.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/soci...tion-1.3373470

What, no Brietbart? No Fox News? :O

That's a good start to your conspiracy theory. Nothing like a bit of link dumping. It adds a thin air of respectability to poorly informed rambling.

I also appreciate that two links are 404, one's behind a paywall and another says absolutely nothing about what you claim. The remaining two are about a fundraiser. This is a pretty solid conspiracy theorist's strategy - it forces people to play link-lottery just to figure out your point.

enfant terrible

Well, we have to end apartheid for one. And slow down the nuclear arms race, stop terrorism and world hunger. We have to provide food and shelter for the homeless, and oppose racial discrimination and promote civil rights, while also promoting equal rights for women. We have to encourage a return to traditional moral values. Most importantly, we have to promote general social concern and less materialism in young people.

OldNotWIse

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I wouldn't want to be married to someone who needed a law to prevent him cheating!

pumpkin4life

mcmoustache wrote: »

That's a good start to your conspiracy theory. Nothing like a bit of link dumping. It adds a thin air of respectability to poorly informed rambling.

I also appreciate that two links are 404, one's behind a paywall and another says absolutely nothing about what you claim. The remaining two are about a fundraiser. This is a pretty solid conspiracy theorist's strategy - it forces people to play link-lottery just to figure out your point.

The fundraiser is the point, Please get it because you've made a few mistakes in this thread already.

I like how Irish people think certain types of corruption/being fooled are ok, so as long as they get what they want. Maybe that's you.

I'll fix up the remaining links there. I did a copy and paste from another set of posts, not all of them came through.

Edit: Fixed.

Geuze

wakka12 wrote: »

I
Personally I don't understand how it works, I would have thought businesses and such would simply proportionally increase the cost of their product/service by how much extra money everyone is now getting and basically it would result in nothing changing, but maybe theres more to it than that

Theres also plans to implement it in 3 large cities in ontario very soon also, so it'll be interesting to see how that works out. And why was the Finnish trial run halted ?

Note that although everybody would get a UBI, all welfare payments and all tax credits would be abolished, and the main income tax rate would be 45%.

So it's not quite correct to say "everybody will get extra money."

robp

Is an euthansia law really such a issue? Surely any one with clear enough state of mind to consider ending their own life is capable of buying suicide pills online?
Last thing Ireland needs is another protracted culture war.

pxdf9i5cmoavkz

Tabnabs wrote: »

Euthanasia, only very narrowly defeated in the Portuguese parliament recently, it's time to give all citizens control over their bodies.

Oh look. Identity politics. :rolleyes:

Debate an argument on its merits and morals.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Get rid of the blasphemy law, legalise and tax prostitution, legalise and start taxing drugs.

They're in the process of trying to ban sale of tobacco in this country and introduce minimum alcohol pricing. So drug legalisation is not going to be on the agenda.

Even if they did legalise and tax it, gangs would just undercut the state like they do with cigarettes. Nothing would change aside from an increased issue with social and health problems relating to drugs.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

mcmoustache

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

They're in the process of trying to ban sale of tobacco in this country and introduce minimum alcohol pricing. So drug legalisation is not going to be on the agenda.

Even if they did legalise and tax it, gangs would just undercut the state like they do with cigarettes. Nothing would change aside from an increased issue with social and health problems relating to drugs.

I guess we'll never know. It's a pity nobody ever tried decriminalising drugs in any country ever so that we could see what the effects of doing so are.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

tritium

pickarooney wrote: »

And do these miserable few self-interested people outnumber the decent skins who wouldn't object to children and their fathers spending more time together, in Ireland?

Tbh the change on the married women in the home provision in the constitution will be hugely supported by women’s groups- they simply can’t not support removing something so inherently sexist. Given that the real challenge from a fathers rights perspective is to ensure that it’s either completely excised or better yet replaced with something that specifically puts fathers and mothers on an equal footing, regardless of marital status

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Mutant z

The right to die with dignity.

take everything

enfant terrible wrote: »

Well, we have to end apartheid for one. And slow down the nuclear arms race, stop terrorism and world hunger. We have to provide food and shelter for the homeless, and oppose racial discrimination and promote civil rights, while also promoting equal rights for women. We have to encourage a return to traditional moral values. Most importantly, we have to promote general social concern and less materialism in young people.

I couldn't agree more.
Wanna swap business cards.

WHIP IT!

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Unfortunately, you are correct. As important a subject as it is, Fathers' Rights are just not sexy enough to gain any real political traction.

BabyCheeses

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Can you calm down on the women are out to get you conspiracy? Those of us who support improving fathers rights don't need your help in bringing it down and making the side that support it just look like they are angry at women.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Yer Da sells Avon

A constitutional right to a home (an actual home, not a hotel room or a bed in a hostel), provided by the state, regardless of income.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Shop40

I would hope, as the parent of a child with special needs, we will finally have the provision of adequate services- speech therapy, occupational therapy and physiotherapy. We have had to fight tooth and nail to get the bare minimum for our child, and life is tough enough.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Fathers rights, paternity leave and assisted suicide/euthanasia.

Gavlor

Hapax Legomenon wrote: »

A constitutional right to a home (an actual home, not a hotel room or a bed in a hostel), provided by the state, regardless of income.

Nice one, I’ll quit my job for a few years and train for an Ironman safe in the knowledge that my family will always have a home.

What could possibly go wrong

Joe Dog

Get rid of excessive political correctness, it's now gone too far in the other direction and so called liberals are now the least tolerant sub section of society.

I was fairly left wing in the past but as I've got older I've began to hate the supposedly progressive, liberal ideology that has been pushed by the media in this country.

It's such a pity and proper right wing party hasn't developed yet in ireland it would be good for the country if it did.