Progressive Ireland -- what's next?

Mikenesson

weldoninhio wrote: »

Boo, and indeed, hoo.

I can't take you seriously when you can't just say boo-hoo

weldoninhio

Mikenesson wrote: »

I can't take you seriously when you can't just say boo-hoo

I can’t take people who think carpet is an impediment to potty training seriously.

tigger123

What the f*ck is going on in this thread?

PopePalpatine

What's next? I think the Department of Health has that answer.

I suppose this might mellow out the stag & hen parties coming over from Britain. :pac:

Blaizes

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

The solution is more housing supply of course.The money being used for these hotel and b and b places being redirected instead into intensive building programmes.But this isn't happening quickly enough so with the lack of available accommodation people are being forced to declare themselves homeless.It's not not simply a question of people not being able to afford rented accommodation ( but of course is is for some) it's down to lack of availability too.Thirty, forty people recently in my own town ( nowhere near Dublin) viewing a house for rent.We're talking working people here two professionals who can afford the rent but still struggling to find a place. Couldn't have believed the situation was so bad outside of Dublin in a medium sized town but I got this information first hand.As to who will pay we are already paying for those hotels and b and b through our taxes.

But please tell me there isn't something terribly wrong when two working people struggle to find a place to rent in the Ireland of today.Just checked out daft.ie now 3,105 properties to rent in Ireland that seems very low.

Dont want to take this thread off track but my point is in a progressive Ireland we need to sort out the housing mess and a mess it is.

Skobey_brady

Blaizes wrote: »

The solution is more housing supply of course.The money being used for these hotel and b and b places being redirected instead into intensive building programmes.But this isn't happening quickly enough so with the lack of available accommodation people are being forced to declare themselves homeless.It's not not simply a question of people not being able to afford rented accommodation ( but of course is is for some) it's down to lack of availability too.Thirty, forty people recently in my own town ( nowhere near Dublin) viewing a house for rent.We're talking working people here two professionals who can afford the rent but still struggling to find a place. Couldn't have believed the situation was so bad outside of Dublin in a medium sized town but I got this information first hand.As to who will pay we are already paying for those hotels and b and b through our taxes.

But please tell me there isn't something terribly wrong when two working people struggle to find a place to rent in the Ireland of today.Just checked out daft.ie now 3,105 properties to rent in Ireland that seems very low.

Dont want to take this thread off track but my point is in a progressive Ireland we need to sort out the housing mess and a mess it is.

All legislation brought in this past several years has been towards protecting the tenant even that tenant is a rogue tenant, from listening to the media, you would think all landlords were devil's and all tenants were angels, it takes two years to evict a Non paying tenant in Ireland and the same tenant can wreck the place and face no sanction

No country in Europe is more pro tenant than this one

Blaizes

Skobey_brady wrote: »

All legislation brought in this past several years has been towards protecting the tenant even that tenant is a rogue tenant, from listening to the media, you would think all landlords were devil's and all tenants were angels, it takes two years to evict a Non paying tenant in Ireland and the same tenant can wreck the place and face no sanction

No country in Europe is more pro tenant than this one

Yes it's one big mess as I've said and it's true that private tenants can wreck a house and then take forever to get out. I'm definitely not trying to say that all tenants are angels but just point out the huge issue re lack of housing supply.

The problem now seems to be that the state is over reliant on private landlords to provide housing supply so much so that landlords are getting fed up and bailing out.

Skobey_brady

Blaizes wrote: »

Yes it's one big mess as I've said and it's true that private tenants can wreck a house and then take forever to get out. I'm definitely not trying to say that all tenants are angels but just point out the huge issue re lack of housing supply.

The problem now seems to be that the state is over reliant on private landlords to provide housing supply so much so that landlords are getting fed up and bailing out.

Landlords are exiting because it's clear that lobby groups want to make it impossible to evict tenants, why would anyone stake hundreds of thousands if they are then powerless to evict rogue tenants

Eggs For Dinner

o1s1n wrote: »

Get that fecking blasphemy law removed once and for all, makes us look ridiculous. Roll on the referendum!

I didn't know we had a blasphemy law until I read that we were going to have a referendum about it. I agree with getting rid of it, but it must be the law that has least impact on people's lives.

endacl

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

I didn't know we had a blasphemy law until I read that we were going to have a referendum about it. I agree with getting rid of it, but it must be the law that has least impact on people's lives.

The only truly victimless crime?

Wanderer2010

I would like to see a movement by workers to stand up for their rights as a lot of people out there are getting ridden by companies who have no intention of following employment law and just want to grind workers into the ground to maximise profits. There is a whole raft of employment law out there that's been broken every day of the week and I would like people who feel unfairly treated to stand up and say "Actually NO I am not going to be treated like crap".

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

An_Toirpin

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

o1s1n wrote: »

Get that fecking blasphemy law removed once and for all, makes us look ridiculous. Roll on the referendum!

I didn't know we had a blasphemy law until I read that we were going to have a referendum about it. I agree with getting rid of it, but it must be the law that has least impact on people's lives.

Literally zero impact. No chance of it ever been enacted. A referendum on the matter is a total waste of resources.
.

Eggs For Dinner

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Literally zero impact. No chance of it ever been enacted. A referendum on the matter is a total waste of resources.
.

In fairness, every little step that separates church and State is worth doing

An_Toirpin

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Literally zero impact. No chance of it ever been enacted. A referendum on the matter is a total waste of resources.
.

In fairness, every little step that separates church and State is worth doing

It is not relevant to debates about church and state as it applies to all religions. Furthermore if it is replaced by some kind of subjective regressive progressive anti hate speech article then you could have actual speech being restricted for the first time so no a referendum is not necessarily a good idea.

dude_abided

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

I would like to see a movement by workers to stand up for their rights as a lot of people out there are getting ridden by companies who have no intention of following employment law and just want to grind workers into the ground to maximise profits. There is a whole raft of employment law out there that's been broken every day of the week and I would like people who feel unfairly treated to stand up and say "Actually NO I am not going to be treated like crap".

Also a lot of crap people who are dragging businesses down. Plenty of BO staff and deadweight MM that really should be gone. But very hard to do once they have been there for a while..

Phoebas

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Literally zero impact. No chance of it ever been enacted. A referendum on the matter is a total waste of resources.
.

The blasphemy referendum, if it happens, will be bundled in with another election or referenda.

Cost should be minimal.

RandomName2

Phoebas wrote: »

The blasphemy referendum, if it happens, will be bundled in with another election or referenda.

Cost should be minimal.

Maybe presidential election?

tigger123

Didn't Bertie introduce some blasphemy law about ten minutes before he stood down as Taoiseach?

Phoebas

RandomName2 wrote: »

Maybe presidential election?

The thinking was that it would be bundled with two other referenda and the presidential election.

Votes on removing blasphemy as an offence, altering the role of women in the home and directly electing mayors will be held alongside a presidential election (should one take place) in October 2018.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/government-agrees-on-seven-referendums-in-2018-and-2019-1.3234818?mode=amp

Wheeliebin30

Blaizes wrote: »

This is not about you.

There are children in Ireland today living in hotel rooms, trying to do their homework in a confined space, no chance to have play dates; have their friends over, limited space for their clothes and toys, possibly a long daily commute to their school, then the social stigma of being in this situation while their peers enjoy a place they can call home.

Who’s fault is that???

Remember that homeless programmer on RTÉ, 2 out of the 3 young ones featured on the show got pregnant WHILE in emergency accommodation.

Hello, personal responsibility???

Seems it doesn’t exist anymore and people can just blame the government.

Wake up and stop been fooled by these chancers.

Berserker

Berserker wrote: »

I'd like to see :

- Fathers right.
- Assisted suicide and euthanasia.
- The Irish language being removed from public signs etc and it being made optional in schools.
- Higher taxes on junk food, alcohol (significant) and cigarettes.
- Welfare cuts for those who are able to work but chose not to.



Totally agree. There is a ridiculous imbalance to the left in Irish politics now. You have to chose between hard left (PBP, SF), left (the rest) or centre left (FF & FG).

That could be a bit awkward. How would I find places like Dun Laoghaire and Portlaoise then? Not sure how the attempts at the marginalisation of Irish in this thread can be linked with the word 'progressive'. I'd agree the way its taught in schools needs to be looked at though.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

professore

Tell me how wrote: »

Finland have called a halt to a trial run of that.

My fear/expectation is that the market would adjust to recreate similar levels of disparity and need within a few years.

You can't try that in a small area. It has to be the whole country. I think it's a great idea as long as all other forms of social welfare are scrapped. Every euro you earn will pay. Everyone has the same safety net.

Phoebas

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

That's not quite correct.
The pro choice side will support legislation that will continue to limit their reproductive choices. They accept that the state has a regulatory role.

I wouldn't draw any logical line between this and the state compelling people to study Irish (or maths or english).

Blaizes

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Who’s fault is that???

Remember that homeless programmer on RTÉ, 2 out of the 3 young ones featured on the show got pregnant WHILE in emergency accommodation.

Hello, personal responsibility???

Seems it doesn’t exist anymore and people can just blame the government.

Wake up and stop been fooled by these chancers.

Who are you to tell me to wake up?

There is a serious housing crisis in this country.Yes perhaps people do find themselves pregnant in emergency accommodation and yes that's foolish in the extreme but the bigger picture is that there is not enough available accommodation in Ireland to support the current population. Read my earlier post about the professional couple who can afford to rent but can't find any house to rent.You couldn't make this stuff up.

Take your head out of the sand!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Atoms for Peace

Progressive house That whats next!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pwvxtg1_zAs

Wheeliebin30

Blaizes wrote: »

Who are you to tell me to wake up?

There is a serious housing crisis in this country.Yes perhaps people do find themselves pregnant in emergency accommodation and yes that's foolish in the extreme but the bigger picture is that there is not enough available accommodation in Ireland to support the current population. Read my earlier post about the professional couple who can afford to rent but can't find any house to rent.You couldn't make this stuff up.

Take your head out of the sand!

Before me move on, can you clarify one thing for me please?

What the hell is a “professional” couple?

Blaizes

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Before me move on, can you clarify one thing for me please?

What the hell is a “professional” couple?

Well the couple I'm talking about both have degrees and masters.They work in the fields they trained in more or less.

Wheeliebin30

Blaizes wrote: »

Well the couple I'm talking about both have degrees and masters.They work in the fields they trained in more or less.

So anything other than your description isn’t a “professional” couple?

Are they more professional than someone who hasn’t a degree????

somefeen

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

So anything other than your description isn’t a “professional” couple?

Are they more professional than someone who hasn’t a degree????

Wheeliebin uses: Topic change defence.
+1 Effectiveness

Blaizes

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

So anything other than your description isn’t a “professional” couple?

Are they more professional than someone who hasn’t a degree????

Look, I'm not a dictionary, I don't care if my description is perfect or not.

Your second question is subjective.

The point I was making about this couple, working couple, if that seems like a fairer way of describing them is that they can't find a house to rent even with the means of affording it because there just aren't enough places to rent.

Wheeliebin30

Blaizes wrote: »

Look, I'm not a dictionary, I don't care if my description is perfect or not.

Your second question is subjective.

The point I was making about this couple, working couple, if that seems like a fairer way of describing them is that they can't find a house to rent even with the means of affording it because there just aren't enough places to rent.

I know many working or professional couples who are renting.

I think you’re massively over exaggerating the situation.

Blaizes

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

I know many working or professional couples who are renting.

I think you’re massively over exaggerating the situation.

Look I found it hard to believe myself but then I went into daft.ie and looked in our area and very little to rent then I saw the number of properties to rent in Ireland just over 3,000.

As I've said before I don't want to rant on or take over the thread but the couple who told me about their situation are truthful and said the availability of rental was dire.I had heard this again a few months back from someone else but didn't think too much of it but now I absolutely believe it.

Permabear

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Not true. The campaign was fought around repeal of the eighth amendment in tandem with Simon Harris' proposed legislation that was published in March. Ater the 12 week initial period the state HAS interfered with the choices that will be available.

The logic here is the same: Individuals and families should be free to make their own choices with regards to the language(s) they speak, without the state trying to compel them to learn Irish.

They don't have that choice. French, German and Spanish might be on the curriculum, but Urdu is not. NUI matriculation for many courses requires a third language in addition to English & Irish. Are you equally opposed to an element of compulsion with any language or is it just Irish?

The progressive element in this instance would involve removing unwarranted state compulsion and letting people choose which languages to learn and use.

If Irish people want to work in continental Europe its obvious they can't make any choice they want. They have to pick a relevant European language to learn. It can't be one they might 'like' the most. Your idea of progressiveness here would actually lead to people being disadvantaged in certain job markets.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Permabear

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Its very relevant. The state is framing how abortion will be available in this country. It won't be a free for all as you appeared to suggest earlier.

You're just reinforcing my point. Students should choose the language they want to learn and that they believe will be useful to them in their future careers. They should not be compelled to learn a language that is barely used within Ireland, not used anywhere else in the world, but whose privileged place in the curriculum means that most Irish students do not encounter a foreign language until they start secondary school at the age of 12 or 13.

Now THAT'S an irrelevant point if I ever saw one. So what? I believe in a government including encouraging some cultural distinctiveness in a positive way as part of its policy. Why is the teaching of Irish blocking the learning of another language? I'd drop Religious Education first if you want to make room in the curriculum for a 3rd language before secondary school level.

topper75

Tell me how wrote: »

Finland have called a halt to a trial run of that.

My fear/expectation is that the market would adjust to recreate similar levels of disparity and need within a few years.

I've been arguing that since the concept emerged.

It is a naive attempt at financial alchemy and merely pushes the demand curve upwards. It's like a tramp with a short blanket taking a scissors to the top part so that he can sew it on the bottom and make the blanket longer.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Permabear

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I don't understand how you think the compulsory teaching of Irish leaves 'no choice'. It doesn't. Dutch is compulsory in the Netherlands, German in Germany etc. Its not stopping them teaching a 2nd or 3rd language there if they want. As I said, drop religion in primary schools to make room for another language. The curriculum can be reformed to offer a 3rd language earlier if needed. It shouldn't have to mean an automatic response of dropping Irish as a solution.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Taytoland

If women want choice over their bodies, then why can't people have choice if they want to learn Irish? Trust non Irish speakers.

Permabear

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Sorry, there's an utter disconnect between whats considered 'a native tongue' and the number who might speak it. Irish is a 'native' tongue, period. Would you consider the languages of Native American tribes not to be native tongues in the US & Canada because not many would speak them? I'm sensing a certain amount of intolerance here in opposition to anything but the Anglophone way. Now that's not progressive.....

whisky_galore

There won't be any let up on the enforcement of Irish, they won't concede an inch of ground. It has quite powerful and vocal lobby groups protecting their own interests.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Permabear

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Both are native tongues in Ireland as recognised by Bunreacht ha hEireann.

statist authoritarianism.

Heh heh, I consider that term more than little ironic considering the spread of certain languages from their European origins was accompanied by the worst manifestations of ‘statest authoritarism’, as you so aptly put it, in the first place. A fact often conveniently forgotten by Anglophone enthusiasts.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

JupiterKid

Get the church out of our school system. Church run schools should not receive a cent of State funding. If parents want to send their children to private religious schools, fine, that’s their choice but this whole malarkey of limited school spaces in schools with a religious ethos and children needing a baptismal cert to enrol must stop.

End compulsory religion classes - either teach about all religions in a non-biased manner with far less hours taken up in the school week or none at all. Using religion as a means to brainwash and indoctrinate children must be consigned to history. Obviously if a minority of parents opt to send their children to private religious schools those schools have every right to teach their religious ethos.

Remove Irish as a compulsory leaving cert subject and radically reform the way it is thought. 95 years of the current system of teaching the language has utterly failed, the language is dying on its feet and and most children are being turned off it and forget it as adults, the Gaelscoils are much lauded but unless Irish is spoken outside of school hours and among families at home it is in deep trouble. I want to see Irish survive as it is part of our culture but under the current system it will be all but completely gone soon. The Gaeltacht areas are nearly on their last legs (see other thread on this).

Change our agri sector - abandon uneconomical small holdings on marginal land and revert to (preferably) broadleaf forestry. Aim for greater standards in our beef, dairy, poultry, pig and tillage sectors. Change the subsidies to promote excellence in farming - make Ireland a Centre of agri excellence the world over and promote quality over quantity. Promote and subsidise organic farming.

Greater push on renewable energy - more wind farms in appropriate locations, explore tidal and wave energy and biomass energy production. Lessen our reliance on fossil fuels.

Immediate ban on one-off rural housing with strict exceptions for those working the land and encourage living in villages and small towns. Encourage refurbishing existing older dwellings rather than see them abandoned to rot to be replaced by the McMansions.

Set up a proper National Trust to encourage more grand stately homes in the country to be accessible to the public for tourism. We focus too much on ancient ruins, castles, monasteries etc for tourism and that’s fine but much less on Tudor/Georgian/Regency/Victorian era grand houses. Set up funding and subsidies to encourage people to restore the dozens of stately mansions that were destroyed in the War of Independence and afterwards and restore these to their former glory if possible. Same goes for older houses in our urban areas. There is huge untapped tourist potential in this area.

Restart a major programme of social housing to ease the housing crisis in our cities but build well and lay out estates well. Marino, our first major suburban social housing estate, was superbly designed and works well to this day, 90 odd years later. Be very selective in allocating social housing and evist for persistent anti social behavior. Take the pressure off the overstretched private rented sector which has de facto become much of our social housing stock. Get back to good urban design principles.

Tougher sentencing for violent crime and repeat offending and more rehabilitation for minor crimes. Community service for minor offences with drug rehab and education as key elements - and redress to families of crime victims.

Decriminalize all illegal drugs and regulate them like Portugal did. This would lead to a drop in deaths from overdoses and reduce organized crime that thrives on prohibition.

Massive investment into good quality public transport systems in our cities. Metro system as an urgent priority for Dublin, expand Luas, expand DART and perhaps an east-west tram system for Cork and guided busways for Galway and Limerick.

Reform third level education and focus on quality over quantity. Arrest the trend of grade inflation. Encourage work experience as part of degree/diploma courses. Encourage those less suited to completing third level into more suitable vocational type education courses with good employment prospects. This trend to having to have an honours degree just to work in a low paid clerical entry job is ridiculous.

Those are a few I can think of...

KathleenGrant

I am a fluent Irish speaker and am passionate about the language but I feel nothing kills a language more than forcing people who do not want to learn it sit through classes. Years of compulsory Irish has not progressed the language one bit. I would be in favour of compulsory Irish in primary schools but making it a subject choice at secondary. That would raise the standard for those who want to learn it and make school a more positive experience for students who don't.