Fees for public charge points - not realistic anymore

Jeditraining1

So this is a conversation needs to be had given todays announcements (See RTE news). The dogs on the streets could easily tell anyone that government policy was not working years ago in relation to EV's and general emissions, unfortunately this has now come home to roost.

For those of you who don't know the government had 3 targets they had agreed to meet by 2020, a 20% reduction emissions in ETH, or a 20% reduction in CO2 emissions in Heat generation, 20% in Electrical generation and 20% in Transport. Part of this initial commitment was that up to 50,000 EV's would be on Irish roads by the agreed date, this figure was subsequently revised downward twice.

Ultimately this goal is now unattainable at they will not even reach 1% (See below1). Which means investment has to made.

1. Emissions will not be met: https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0531/967307-epa-greenhouse-projections/

So as the money will not realistically be coming form the drivers any time soon (Will eventually) Has anyone got any proposals to how this could be tackled if a letter to minister or government was written.

babybuilder

Jeditraining1 wrote: »

So this is a conversation needs to be had given todays announcements (See RTE news). The dogs on the streets could easily tell anyone that government policy was not working years ago in relation to EV's and general emissions, unfortunately this has now come home to roost.

For those of you who don't know the government had 3 targets they had agreed to meet by 2020, a 20% reduction emissions in ETH, or a 20% reduction in CO2 emissions in Heat generation, 20% in Electrical generation and 20% in Transport. Part of this initial commitment was that up to 50,000 EV's would be on Irish roads by the agreed date, this figure was subsequently revised downward twice.

Ultimately this goal is now unattainable at they will not even reach 1% (See below1). Which means investment has to made.

1. Emissions will not be met: https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2018/0531/967307-epa-greenhouse-projections/

So as the money will not realistically be coming form the drivers any time soon (Will eventually) Has anyone got any proposals to how this could be tackled if a letter to minister or government was written.

Government is not really interested in targets only revenue. Car industry not really interested in EVs as there is no money in it at the moment for the manufacturers and car retailers. The government would rather pay fines to europe or do a carbon credit swap.

Sabre Man

I think what is needed is a lot more public charge points, which will give people the confidence needed to buy an EV. Every location needs to have at least two chargers in case there is an issue with one of them.

liamog

Fees for public charging should be regulated until a competitive market place can stand on it's own.
Personally I'd set the fee at an equivalent rate of the available charging power, again to encourage maximum utilisation of the infrastructure at higher charging speeds.
I'd set the regulated price at home day rates +5%, it's cheap enough that it still encourages a switch, whilst encouraging home based charging, which allows the infrastructure to be utilised. Let's say this works out at 20c/kWh with taxes.

To illustrate, I've used a simplified charging model for the Ioniq. Assuming up-to 70kW between 10% and 80% then 22kW between 80% and 94%.

Speed (kW) | Fee (c/min) | 10% to 80% (hours:mins:sec) | 80% to 94% (hours:mins:sec) | Cost to 80% (€) | Cost to 94% (€)
22 | 0.073 | 00:53:27 | 00:10:41 | €3.92 | €4.72
45 | 0.150 | 00:26:08 | 00:10:41 | €3.92 | €5:52
50 | 0.167 | 00:23:31 | 00:10:41 | €3.92 | €5.70
70 | 0.233 | 00:16:48 | 00:10:41 | €3.92 | €6.41
100 | 0.333 | 00:16:48 | 00:10:41 | €5.60 | €9.16


You can see how it incentivises people to only use the charge for the fastest part, and to not use chargers that are over capable for a given car. The danger of per kWh charging is that a PHEV can plug in and charge at much lower rates, essentially damaging the income for the operator and reducing the availability.

The government support for charger installation should be done the same way as the M3 toll is. Essentially guarantee a minimum income per charger for chargers. Which will cover costs over an operating time such as 6 years.

creedp

liamog wrote: »

Fees for public charging should be regulated until a competitive market place can stand on it's own.
Personally I'd set the fee at an equivalent rate of the available charging power, again to encourage maximum utilisation of the infrastructure at higher charging speeds.
I'd set the regulated price at home day rates +5%, it's cheap enough that it still encourages a switch, whilst encouraging home based charging, which allows the infrastructure to be utilised. Let's say this works out at 20c/kWh with taxes.

To illustrate, I've used a simplified charging model for the Ioniq. Assuming up-to 70kW between 10% and 80% then 22kW between 80% and 94%.

Speed (kW) | Fee (c/min) | 10% to 80% (hours:mins:sec) | 80% to 94% (hours:mins:sec) | Cost to 80% (€) | Cost to 94% (€)
22 | 0.073 | 00:53:27 | 00:10:41 | €3.92 | €4.72
45 | 0.150 | 00:26:08 | 00:10:41 | €3.92 | €5:52
50 | 0.167 | 00:23:31 | 00:10:41 | €3.92 | €5.70
70 | 0.233 | 00:16:48 | 00:10:41 | €3.92 | €6.41
100 | 0.333 | 00:16:48 | 00:10:41 | €5.60 | €9.16


You can see how it incentivises people to only use the charge for the fastest part, and to not use chargers that are over capable for a given car. The danger of per kWh charging is that a PHEV can plug in and charge at much lower rates, essentially damaging the income for the operator and reducing the availability.

The government support for charger installation should be done the same way as the M3 toll is. Essentially guarantee a minimum income per charger for chargers. Which will cover costs over an operating time such as 6 years.

While this might be intuitive for the more technically minded EV drivers who enjoy understanding how the clock ticks I think it would be overwhelming for many drivers who just want to plug in and charge.

Personally I plug in at the fcp chargers and charge to 80% or more if no one is queuing and I have a long journey ahead. I've never looked at the charging rate. Ive noticed the charging speed reduces at the % charge increases but that's about it. IMO keeping the Leaf charged is stressful without having to contend with the above scale of charges but maybe I'm the exception! I can just imagine a re casting of the 'I don't know what a tracker mortgage is' advertising campaign!!

liamog

creedp wrote: »

While this might be intuitive for the more technically minded EV drivers who enjoy understanding how the clock ticks I think it would be overwhelming for many drivers who just want to plug in and charge.

Personally I plug in at the fcp chargers and charge to 80% or more if no one is queuing and I have a long journey ahead. I've never looked at the charging rate. Ive noticed the charging speed reduces at the % charge increases but that's about it. IMO keeping the Leaf charged is stressful without having to contend with the above scale of charges but maybe I'm the exception! I can just imagine a re casting of the 'I don't know what a tracker mortgage is' advertising campaign!!

There wouldn't be a scale of charges.

You'd see on the map X charger costs X cents per minute. People can handle different rates for parking fees. If the driver feels like educating themselves they'll save money.

creedp

liamog wrote: »

There wouldn't be a scale of charges.

You'd see on the map X charger costs X cents per minute. People can handle different rates for parking fees. If the driver feels like educating themselves they'll save money.

Sorry was on phone and couldnt see last 2 columns of your table! Makes it much clearer when you can see the full table.

The only issue then is whether people will have sufficient access to appropriately specced chargers, particularly Leaf owners relying on the Chademo standard, to make the car viable for longer journeys.

Last weekend it took me 7 hours to get from West Cork to north of Drogheda. 1 hour of that was caused by having to stop off early for a charge at Midway Portlaoise (because the e-cars app was wrongly reporting the Monastereven FCP out of order) just as the Dublin fans were heading home. This meant I had to stop off again for a top up at Ashbourne in order to make it home. While 7 hours is long (3hrs 50 min non stop in the dinosaur diesel) I'd hate to think how long it would have taken if there was a queue of cars at each charge point.

Before charging is introduced make some effort to improve the ridicously poor charging network

Atlantic Dawn

Sabre Man wrote: »

I think what is needed is a lot more public charge points, which will give people the confidence needed to buy an EV. Every location needs to have at least two chargers in case there is an issue with one of them.

I think every single new car park for a commercial premises should need electric charging for 10% of car spaces, simple things like this promote uptake.

ELM327

2 FCP per site.
Minimum.
Blanket €0.25/kWh at a fast charger
Blanket €0.16/kWh at a slow charger (22kW and below)

Done.
Simple, easy to follow, cheap.

Dardania

How about:
- charge full market rate for what the charger network costs. Including admin, maintenance, money for expansion etc. So that a high quality network is delivered.
- offer people tax credits based on their public charging costs
It encourages people to use the network, the network is sustainably funded, and in time, 5 or 10 years down the road, the tax credits can be phased out

ELM327

That is a great idea.
Unfortunately Irish people think of tax credits as witchcraft so it won't work imo. Not to drive ownership because the use is not free at point of use.

Trasna1

What's needed is ultimately better and cheaper electric cars. This needs to be backed up with more public chargers, a better policy when it comes to apartments and shared spaces as well as punitive taxation on diesel and petrol.

ELM327

Trasna1 wrote: »

What's needed is ultimately better and cheaper electric cars. This needs to be backed up with more public chargers, a better policy when it comes to apartments and shared spaces as well as punitive taxation on diesel and petrol.

The cars are not needing to be "better"
They are cheap enough
More public chargers are needed for sure, ecars is a joke
better policy is needed too
punitive taxes on diesel will not work because of the impact on the haulage industry
punitive taxes on petrol will push people to diesel. see above
Taxes need to be in motor tax for private used non EV fuels.

Trasna1

ELM327 wrote: »

The cars are not needing to be "better"
They are cheap enough
More public chargers are needed for sure, ecars is a joke
better policy is needed too
punitive taxes on diesel will not work because of the impact on the haulage industry
punitive taxes on petrol will push people to diesel. see above
Taxes need to be in motor tax for private used non EV fuels.

You better let the manufacturers know that that are wasting their time and money on researching ways to improve the ev, since it doesn't need to get any better.:rolleyes:

NIMAN

The Gov is failing miserably in its EV plans.

Although we'd all like a car that can do 500km on a single charge, the cars are on the market to do a job for most Irish people, but they need more incentives to make the switch. Something has to be done to tempt them.

For all its bringing in, EVs should be road tax free. Afaik, there are 2500 or so EVs in Ireland. That is a total of €300,000 in tax. A pittance. Irish people love cheap road tax, what better way to get their attention than having it as Zero for EVs?

Also allow them free tolls, access to bus lanes....little things like that are needed. Might not help much if the mindset isn't there, but every little helps.

ELM327

Trasna1 wrote: »

You better let the manufacturers know that that are wasting their time and money on researching ways to improve the ev, since it doesn't need to get any better.:rolleyes:

:rolleyes: great contribution thanks for your efforts

NIMAN wrote: »

The Gov is failing miserably in its EV plans.

Although we'd all like a car that can do 500km on a single charge, the cars are on the market to do a job for most Irish people, but they need more incentives to make the switch. Something has to be done to tempt them.

For all its bringing in, EVs should be road tax free. Afaik, there are 2500 or so EVs in Ireland. That is a total of €300,000 in tax. A pittance. Irish people love cheap road tax, what better way to get their attention than having it as Zero for EVs?

Also allow them free tolls, access to bus lanes....little things like that are needed. Might not help much if the mindset isn't there, but every little helps.

Agreed to all the above. This should have been n place since 2011. And worked in Norway. So well in fact that they are dialling some of them back.

Trasna1

NIMAN wrote: »

The Gov is failing miserably in its EV plans.

Although we'd all like a car that can do 500km on a single charge, the cars are on the market to do a job for most Irish people, but they need more incentives to make the switch. Something has to be done to tempt them.

For all its bringing in, EVs should be road tax free. Afaik, there are 2500 or so EVs in Ireland. That is a total of €300,000 in tax. A pittance. Irish people love cheap road tax, what better way to get their attention than having it as Zero for EVs?

Also allow them free tolls, access to bus lanes....little things like that are needed. Might not help much if the mindset isn't there, but every little helps.

Look if essentially free fuel isn't tempting people the problem is something else. And it's clearly the cars. Lack of supply, lack of models and lack of range.

The EV makes a great second car, but for families looking at this option you're stuck with a gen 1 leaf - an ugly machine with 15-20% range depleted. And €8k for the privilege.

Dardania

ELM327 wrote: »

That is a great idea.
Unfortunately Irish people think of tax credits as witchcraft so it won't work imo. Not to drive ownership because the use is not free at point of use.

Have to say, having applied for tax credits lately like the Home Renovation Incentive, or even medical expenses, I tend to agree that the learning curve is steep.

Sabre Man

Trasna1 wrote: »

Look if essentially free fuel isn't tempting people the problem is something else. And it's clearly the cars. Lack of supply, lack of models and lack of range.

The very same cars that are selling like hotcakes in Norway?

It's not the cars. It's the infrastructure and lack of awareness.

Trasna1

Sabre Man wrote: »

The very same cars that are selling like hotcakes in Norway?

It's not the cars. It's the infrastructure and lack of awareness.

They are selling like hotcakes in Norway because tolled tunnels are free. They are also not subject to an insanely high purchasing tax. Relatively speaking, they are giving them away.

Owners looking for further incentives is just more middle class welfare tbh.

catharsis

surely the charging model incentive design is easy

charge for time spent using charger
AND
charge for electricity consumed.

people will quickly work out that they can reduce the cost of (1) by using faster chargers for less time, i.e. using it for the 20-80% sweet spot on most EVs

creedp

NIMAN wrote: »

The Gov is failing miserably in its EV plans.

Although we'd all like a car that can do 500km on a single charge, the cars are on the market to do a job for most Irish people, but they need more incentives to make the switch. Something has to be done to tempt them.

For all its bringing in, EVs should be road tax free. Afaik, there are 2500 or so EVs in Ireland. That is a total of €300,000 in tax. A pittance. Irish people love cheap road tax, what better way to get their attention than having it as Zero for EVs?

Also allow them free tolls, access to bus lanes....little things like that are needed. Might not help much if the mindset isn't there, but every little helps.

For the current crop of EV's with limited range to be truly attractive as a proposition for a single car family the public charging infrastructure needs to be massively improved otherwise EV drivers are heading off on extended journeys on a wing and a prayer as to when they will be able to complete the journey. This will only get worse as EV numbers increase.

No point incentivising more EV's onto the road if they can't be charged in a reliable and timely manner. Otherwise we will continue to have the current position where many people will only contemplate an EV as a second runaround car while maintaining the 'diesel' for longer journeys. Look at the Tesla model, invest in the infrastructure first and the demand will follow.

Dardania

catharsis wrote: »

surely the charging model incentive design is easy

charge for time spent using charger
AND
charge for electricity consumed.

people will quickly work out that they can reduce the cost of (1) by using faster chargers for less time, i.e. using it for the 20-80% sweet spot on most EVs

We discussed this topic at length about 18 motnhs ago here. Based on the numbers from eCars as part of the CRU (CER) pilot programme for chargers, electricity cost was a fraction of the cost of running a charger network. I think like 20% of the cost. So the charging cost would need to reflect that reality, to be sustainable financially.

samih

I think per minute charging for rapid charging based on the maximum available speed at that charger is the way to go as this will ensure the chargers are vacated in timely fashion and that when eventually we get faster chargers and cars capable of using them people pick up the correct one for their car. It practically ensures that nobody will leave their car charging for longer than necessary, like just top up for 5 minutes if you're just short of your destination.

I know it it bad for cars that charge slowly but at the same time it stops inconsiderate people hogging the chargers and charging up to 100 percent at 3 kW on a 50 kW charger. At the rate of 0.20/min for 50 kW units your half an hour session would cost 6 quid for 20+ kWh. If you insisted staying for 90 minutes to fully charge the car the last 20 percent of battery would cost you extra 12 quid and at least personally I would leave exactly when I had enough juice to complete the journely or the leg to the next charger.

Destination chargers should also have some rate like yoyo an hour plus the cost of electricity at say 20 c/kWh to ensure people don't use them as their personal parking space but at the same time acknowledge that that's what they are for i.e. for parking while doing something else. At public car parks the cost of charging could be included in the parking cost itself + maybe a small additional charge per kWh at cost price.

Cloudhopper

Charge per kWh.
3 times domestic rate for SCPs and 5 times domestic for FCPs.
If the car finishes charging, start charging for occupying the spot at either the next top of or half past the hour. 5 or 10 euros per 30 minutes to discourage dumping cars at chargers like it's done nowadays.
The car and charger communicate, there is unique information to clearly and uniquely identify the car that is plugged in.
If a non plugged EV is found at a charger, take a picture of it showing the number plate and a one time fee of 120 euros (akin to a clamping fee) is applied to their account.

Mandate that 60 to 80% of all revenue generated have to be used to maintain and expand the network and that no chargers are allowed to be older than 4 years.

And all of a sudden you have A LOT of available charging spaces and a working network.
simples.

DrPhilG

I've always been against charging for chargers based on the fact that eCars are grossly incompetent and the network is not fit for purpose.

Highlighted by the fact that they have recently been upgrading some older FCPs to triple heads. Instead of adding the new charger and thereby increasing the network, plus taking away the common issue of single point of failure, they are just taking the old ones away and doing God knows what with them.

However with the amount of 40kwh Leafs hitting the roads, and the extra time needed to charge them particularly on a long journey, I think that paying for charging might become a necessity simply to ensure that the network is used by those who need it, not just by those who want it.

ELM327

DrPhilG wrote: »

I've always been against charging for chargers based on the fact that eCars are grossly incompetent and the network is not fit for purpose.

Highlighted by the fact that they have recently been upgrading some older FCPs to triple heads. Instead of adding the new charger and thereby increasing the network, plus taking away the common issue of single point of failure, they are just taking the old ones away and doing God knows what with them.

However with the amount of 40kwh Leafs hitting the roads, and the extra time needed to charge them particularly on a long journey, I think that paying for charging light become a necessity simply to ensure that the network is used by those who need it, not just by those who want it.

Agree 100% with this post, especially the emboldened parts

ELM327

Cloudhopper wrote: »

Charge per kWh.
3 times domestic rate for SCPs and 5 times domestic for FCPs.
If the car finishes charging, start charging for occupying the spot at either the next top of or half past the hour. 5 or 10 euros per 30 minutes to discourage dumping cars at chargers like it's done nowadays.
The car and charger communicate, there is unique information to clearly and uniquely identify the car that is plugged in.
If a non plugged EV is found at a charger, take a picture of it showing the number plate and a one time fee of 120 euros (akin to a clamping fee) is applied to their account.

Mandate that 60 to 80% of all revenue generated have to be used to maintain and expand the network and that no chargers are allowed to be older than 4 years.

And all of a sudden you have A LOT of available charging spaces and a working network.
simples.

That would kill EV adoption. For sure.
5 times domestic is anywhere between 60c/kWh and 85c/kWh

DrPhilG

Cloudhopper wrote: »

Charge per kWh.
3 times domestic rate for SCPs and 5 times domestic for FCPs.

Way too expensive.

That would mean a 10-80% charge in my 24kwh Leaf would cost me around €13.

€13 to add about 85km of range.

Whatever is charged at public chargers still needs to be cheaper than the cost of equivalent range in an ICE.

ELM327

DrPhilG wrote: »

Way too expensive.

That would mean a 10-80% charge in my 24kwh Leaf would cost me around €13.

€13 to add about 85km of range.

Whatever is charged at public chargers still needs to be cheaper than the cost of equivalent range in an ICE.

+1 Needs to be significantly cheaper.

Dardania

ELM327 wrote: »

Cloudhopper wrote: »

Charge per kWh.
3 times domestic rate for SCPs and 5 times domestic for FCPs.
If the car finishes charging, start charging for occupying the spot at either the next top of or half past the hour. 5 or 10 euros per 30 minutes to discourage dumping cars at chargers like it's done nowadays.
The car and charger communicate, there is unique information to clearly and uniquely identify the car that is plugged in.
If a non plugged EV is found at a charger, take a picture of it showing the number plate and a one time fee of 120 euros (akin to a clamping fee) is applied to their account.

Mandate that 60 to 80% of all revenue generated have to be used to maintain and expand the network and that no chargers are allowed to be older than 4 years.

And all of a sudden you have A LOT of available charging spaces and a working network.
simples.

That would kill EV adoption. For sure.
5 times domestic is anywhere between 60c/kWh and 85c/kWh

Why - how many km would that get you? And how many km would the equivalent petrol or diesel car cost?
The EV will always come out cheaper, particularly when people charge at home mainly.