Fees for public charge points - not realistic anymore

liamog

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The diesel Golf will on its bum get anywhere close to 3.9l/100km

Most electric cars are used in city so at best 6 but probably circa 7...

My Galaxy, Qashqai, SMAX, Golf etc all hoovered around 7-8...the A6 was down to 5 when doing long distance but 9+ in city....

If I'm going to use a manufacturer figure for the EV, then I'll use the same for the diesel.

The point being that it doesn't take much at the FCP for an EV to become uneconomical for people without home charging

Shefwedfan

samih wrote: »

Public transport in urban areas is the answer, i.e. 90 passengers on single double-decker instead of a kilometre of traffic jam but it doesn't apply to rural Ireland in most cases.

The public transport will need to try harder, i.e. buses that connect directly from A to the nearest urban centre instead of calling in every house on the way and taking 90 minutes for 20 km. Even on the bicycle it takes less than an hour to cover 20 km, ffs. If the prioritised bus took 30 minutes and the car 60 minutes for the distance many more folk would actually use buses.

Why does every fecking 66 bus from Maynooth have to also collect passengers from Leixlip, Lucan, Chapelizod when they actually pretty much fill up early on the route? Just stay on the motorway I say and the same for the other towns instead of slow one every 15 minutes that will take you 3 times as long as a direct one would take. Most of the people are either heading to Dublin City Centre or are going to change in Dublin to a different public transport. Just have an hourly direct express service from any town with fixed pickup points (but exit on demand on every stop on the route) and make sure there is plenty of free or cheap park and ride space at these towns (with plenty of chargers for people that arrive from other cities by car). Even if you had to walk from nearest motorway stop to your destination you would actually save time as opposed to calling to every single house on the way. To cater for the people traveling between smallish town you could keep a very limited number of old style 66 around.

A bit off topic, but he chargers were mentioned.

The buses have to go around because they don't get enought passengers on direct routes. The likes of the Cavan to Dublin route which is busy now have direct options....

If people got out of cars and used the bus then it would make more money so it could put on more buses.....

Dardania

liamog wrote: »

To use an e-Golf vs a diesel golf as an example for an average 17000km driver.

Diesel Golf 3.9l/100km@€1.349/l, total €894
e-Golf 12.7kWh/100km@€0.35/kWh, total €755

I'd save €10 per month, I'll probably just go ahead and buy the diesel car. At 20c/kWh I'd save €40 a month, for that I'd consider it worth making the switch.

Are you presuming you will do 100% of your charging at the public chargers? and none at home, where it costs you perhaps 10c/kwh at night?

samih

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The diesel Golf will on its bum get anywhere close to 3.9l/100km

Most electric cars are used in city so at best 6 but probably circa 7...

My Galaxy, Qashqai, SMAX, Golf etc all hoovered around 7-8...the A6 was down to 5 when doing long distance but 9+ in city....

The eGolf wouldn't be charged on public chargers only I hope as you can easily do 17000 a year on home charging only. More realistic would be 0.07c/kWh instead of the quoted 0.35c/kWh. If you had to charge public every charge every day an EV is not for you.

If you had to every so often spend as much as diesel but did almost all of your driving at 1/5th of the price compared to diesel where you have no choice you would still save. A 100 yo-yo of paid charging would probably be enough for the year for a 17k driver.

samih

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The buses have to go around because they don't get enought passengers on direct routes. The likes of the Cavan to Dublin route which is busy now have direct options....

If people got out of cars and used the bus then it would make more money so it could put on more buses.....

The aim would be to get more people to use them by making them more attractive. I stopped using buses as it was colossal waste of time from Leixlip for example to town. Driving would be almost as big waste but luckily there are alternatives. Train is better, bicycle a bit better, pedelec better still and motorbike the quickest. In my case the pedelec won.

Edit: If the train was electric instead of current tin can I would probably use that for commuting. Absolutely hate the Irish Rail's noisy diesel motorcars with passion. For anybody who thinks diesel is still the future of road transport I suggest that you spend 15 minutes standing at the Connolly station next to one of those ****box trains and then repeat the same standing next to a DART.

Shefwedfan

Dardania wrote: »

Are you presuming you will do 100% of your charging at the public chargers? and none at home, where it costs you perhaps 10c/kwh at night?

I done 15,000km in eGolf last year. All charged at night at home. I used public charging twice in the year. Both times for about a 15 min top up:P

My rates are

14.45 cent (day), 7.16 cent (night) inc VAT

Shefwedfan

samih wrote: »

The aim would be to get more people to use them by making them more attractive. I stopped using buses as it was colossal waste of time from Leixlip for example to town. Driving would be almost as big waste but luckily there are alternatives. Train is better, bicycle a bit better, pedelec better still and motorbike the quickest. In my case the pedelec won.

Its a vicious circle....see comments here for people who think they have freedom by driving a car but every city in Europe/World have a public transport system.....

The government should penalize people for driving their cars into major cities. Like London does. Push them towards public transport...

The issue at the moment is Dublin Bus etc are not making enough to invest in more buses to run more regular routes, even if they did you would still have people looking for the freedom of sitting in a car for 1 hour to travel 20km

Cycling....now that is what I would classify as freedom!!!!

ELM327

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Its a vicious circle....see comments here for people who think they have freedom by driving a car but every city in Europe/World have a public transport system.....

The government should penalize people for driving their cars into major cities. Like London does. Push them towards public transport...

The issue at the moment is Dublin Bus etc are not making enough to invest in more buses to run more regular routes, even if they did you would still have people looking for the freedom of sitting in a car for 1 hour to travel 20km

Remind me again what the congestion charge costs in an EV?
Oh no wait... EVs aren't the answer. Riiiight.
Actually hang on, maybe I'm looking for a handout!

samih

ELM327 wrote: »

Remind me again what the congestion charge costs in an EV?
Oh no wait... EVs aren't the answer. Riiiight.
Actually hang on, maybe I'm looking for a handout!

EVs are nice in the city compared to any other type of cars but they cause as much congestion as the others and need to be parked somewhere. The best would be to use one to the nearest DART station and then continue silently and without plumes of blue smoke (did I say I hate those Commuter trains) to the city without having to worry about paying $$$ for parking.

Ewan Hoosarmi

Public transport isn't the answer when the nearest bus stop is 45 minutes walk from your house, and there are two busses a day into the nearest town.

I've no problem with paying for a public charge. But if it costs too much, I'll go back to fossil fuel. I enjoy my Ioniq, but I'm not wedded to it for life. I'll go with the flow. I suspect there are many like me.

The government are likely to make a clusterfuck of the move to non fossil fuel vehicles. It's just what they do.

Cloudhopper

DrPhilG wrote: »

Way too expensive.

That would mean a 10-80% charge in my 24kwh Leaf would cost me around €13.

€13 to add about 85km of range.

Whatever is charged at public chargers still needs to be cheaper than the cost of equivalent range in an ICE.

In some parts of Austria you pay 14 Euros for a 30 minute quickcharge. Thats the standard over there.

Of course you could lower that, but the most important part is the parking charge.
Looking at many of the Leafs or even worse PHEVs in Ireland at SCPs nowadays, they aren't charging they are parked.

We need to destroy the sense of entitlement some EV owners have and make it financially very painful to abuse the system to educate people to utilise it on by-need basis.

DrPhilG

Cloudhopper wrote: »

We need to destroy the sense of entitlement some EV owners have and make it financially very painful to abuse the system to educate people to utilise it on by-need basis.

We do, but we should do that by targeting those who abuse the system, not those who need it and use it as intended.

A penalty charge of €10 for leaving the car plugged in beyond when not charging would solve that issue.

Cloudhopper

DrPhilG wrote: »

We do, but we should do that by targeting those who abuse the system, not those who need it and use it as intended.

A penalty charge of €10 for leaving the car plugged in beyond when not charging would solve that issue.

No WAY too little.
We need to go full on harshness. 120 or 140 euros, like a clamp release fee.

IDEALLY we'd need the ability to tow the vehicle to an impound to free the charger, cause that would free the resource that we are trying to preserve.

But a tenner? That's cheaper than most parking around here. Thats an INCENTIVE to dump a car on a charger.

Shefwedfan

Cloudhopper wrote: »

No WAY too little.
We need to go full on harshness. 120 or 140 euros, like a clamp release fee.

IDEALLY we'd need the ability to tow the vehicle to an impound to free the charger, cause that would free the resource that we are trying to preserve.

But a tenner? That's cheaper than most parking around here. Thats an INCENTIVE to dump a car on a charger.

10 euro per 30 mins after an initial period of 50 mins. 50 mins as the newer cars will require this duration....

To tow away you would need a tow vehicle at every charger in the country.

As you say, if you have free parking while charging and only a set fine then people will just dump at charger and pay the fine

It all has to make sense....

liamog

Dardania wrote: »

Are you presuming you will do 100% of your charging at the public chargers? and none at home, where it costs you perhaps 10c/kwh at night?

Pricing for a person who can never charge at home, the public infrastructure has to handle these cases as well

DrPhilG

Cloudhopper wrote: »

No WAY too little.
We need to go full on harshness. 120 or 140 euros

Lol, now you're just being silly.

bipedalhumanoid

Shefwedfan wrote: »

This thread comes around every so often and all it turns into is a load of electric car users looking for more hand outs....

Electric cars are not the answer to Irelands problems. Putting people onto public transport is the answer.

I know this is electric car forum but seriously people need to stop looking at themselves and actually think of the country. That is if you are actually concerned about the environment.

Putting in a train/bus/tram system into major cities to remove 10,20,30k cars off the road is the answer

So my option
1. Continue with current incentives for electric cars...push manufacturers like Kia to make sure they offer EV options
2. Make the charging system payable, but reasonable. Fine any user that hogs a fast charger, After 50 mins they get a ten euro fine every 30 mins.
3. Ban taxis from bus lanes
4. Close city centre to traffic. Have single bus lanes and the rest with access to bikes...in Dublin close Phoenix Park to traffic apart from bus
5. Fill roof landscape with Solar PV, any access electricity can be sold into European grid
6. Move diesel to Agri/Commercial/Private. Private diesel to move to same cost as petrol by upping the tax over a 3/4 year period
7. Install large banks of slow chargers in destination train stations like M3 Parkway etc. Slow chargers to not include fine after 50 mins
8. Large shopping centre, blanchardstown, get incentive to install large banks of slow charge points

They are just a starting point...In my view better than filling the bus lanes with a load of electric cars....

This seems to be what the cycling fraternity who run Dublin City Council want to do. It's completely impractical in Dublin. We're in the middle of a housing crisis. It's not practical at all to provide public transport to the entire commuter belt and other counties that most people have been pushed into just to have somewhere to live.

You know, there are people who live in Kildare, Meath, Louth etc who need to be able to get to work in the morning, right?

Every time someone tries to build decent size residential highrise in the city centre, so that we might have a sporting chance of living within cycling distance, planning permission is denied.

You can't just shut down the capital and hope for the best.

Dardania

liamog wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

Are you presuming you will do 100% of your charging at the public chargers? and none at home, where it costs you perhaps 10c/kwh at night?

Pricing for a person who can never charge at home, the public infrastructure has to handle these cases as well

Absolutely, this is a valid case, however it doesn’t represent the average. On average people generally have access to a driveway

creedp

bipedalhumanoid wrote: »

This seems to be what the cycling fraternity who run Dublin City Council want to do. It's completely impractical in Dublin. We're in the middle of a housing crisis. It's not practical at all to provide public transport to the entire commuter belt and other counties that most people have been pushed into just to have somewhere to live.

You know, there are people who live in Kildare, Meath, Louth etc who need to be able to get to work in the morning, right?

Every time someone tries to build decent size residential highrise in the city centre, so that we might have a sporting chance of living within cycling distance, planning permission is denied.

You can't just shut down the capital and hope for the best.

I was talking to a friend who was on a training course with Mr Keegan head of DCC and when asked why restrictions were being put on traffic he responded that people should be aware that his priority is to make is inconvenient for people to drive in Dublin so they would use public transport instead. However, when asked is he used public transport he replied that
even though he lived on the DART line and commuted to city centre public transport was too inconvenient for him because he dropped his kids off to school etc on way in. Luckily no would else has to do that!!

bipedalhumanoid

creedp wrote: »

I was talking to a friend who was on a training course with Mr Keegan head of DCC and when asked why restrictions were being put on traffic he responded that people should be aware that his priority is to make is inconvenient for people to drive in Dublin so they would use public transport instead. However, when asked is he used public transport he replied that
even though he lived on the DART line and commuted to city centre public transport was too inconvenient for him because he dropped his kids off to school etc on way in. Luckily no would else has to do that!!

Sounds about right. I've seen Eammon Ryan's car. He attends the same Gym as me. You'd think with all the talk about being green it would be electric, or not a car or something. No, it's a diesel car.

I live in a town with a train that can get me to Connolly station. My commute is 35km in one direction. Recently I road my bike to work and had plans to leave the bike there and get public transport home. Turns out it was actually quicker for me to ride my bike 35km than to get public transport, which would have consisted of a Luas, 20 min walk, train and a 15 min walk. So I just rode my bike home, covered 70km that day.

DrPhilG

Cloudhopper wrote: »

No WAY too little.
We need to go full on harshness. 120 or 140 euros

I'm not talking about parking charges. Those should be separate. If you get free parking while charging and your charge has ended, then you no longer qualify for the free parking and they should indeed issue heavy fines.

What I mean is that there should be a €10 charge for overstaying on any charger, regardless of whether they are pay to park or not.

I'm in the North west and very few chargers have parking payment or restrictions.

liamog

Dardania wrote: »

Absolutely, this is a valid case, however it doesn’t represent the average. On average people generally have access to a driveway

If the goal is to price out the free loaders, then 25c/kWh equivalent is enough to do so. Those lucky enough to have a driveway will be able to charge most of the time at 7c/kWh.

Dardania

liamog wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

Absolutely, this is a valid case, however it doesn’t represent the average. On average people generally have access to a driveway

If the goal is to price out the free loaders, then 25c/kWh equivalent is enough to do so. Those lucky enough to have a driveway will be able to charge most of the time at 7c/kWh.

The goal with Public chargers isn’t to punish free loaders. It should be to make it a financially sustainable business, that can maintain and invest in the network.

goz83

Trasna1 wrote: »

Look if essentially free fuel isn't tempting people the problem is something else. And it's clearly the cars. Lack of supply, lack of models and lack of range.

The EV makes a great second car, but for families looking at this option you're stuck with a gen 1 leaf - an ugly machine with 15-20% range depleted. And €8k for the privilege.

The main issue is the poor charging network. It can't be trusted or relied on, especially when you have a single charger per location.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Electric cars are not the answer to Irelands problems. Putting people onto public transport is the answer.

No, no, no. Why do people say this? Public transport is not THE answer...it is merely a part of the solution. I literally have a bus stop 2 mins from my house which goes to DCC. The Dart station is 10 mins away. However, public transport is just too expensive and becomes an absolutely ridiculous price when you have a couple of kids with you. It was cheaper for me to drive into town and park up for a couple of hours when I was in a petrol car and had the family with me.

That's all before we talk about them striking more often than Beckham and the the fact that on some routes, it's ok to light a spliff and smoke it upstairs. Also I prefer not to have some sweaty oaf sitting beside me and invading my personal space. Some people have poor personal hygiene and I don't want to be stuck in a box with them if I can avoid it.

So my option

1. Continue with current incentives for electric cars...push manufacturers like Kia to make sure they offer EV options

Or just don't buy their fossil fuel versions. They happily make diesel cars because people still buy them. I was a fan of the previous sportage. I wanted one, but I could not get a petrol version unless I imported from the UK.

2. Make the charging system payable, but reasonable. Fine any user that hogs a fast charger, After 50 mins they get a ten euro fine every 30 mins.

No argument there.

3. Ban taxis from bus lanes

Taxis are public transport. They should be able to use the bus lanes as they currently do. Fares would be even more expensive otherwise.

4. Close city centre to traffic. Have single bus lanes and the rest with access to bikes...in Dublin close Phoenix Park to traffic apart from bus

I for one would never go to the CC if it was closed off to cars. Businesses would suffer hugely and they already do because of the way the council purposely make it inconvenient for cars.

5. Fill roof landscape with Solar PV, any access electricity can be sold into European grid

Definitely!

6. Move diesel to Agri/Commercial/Private. Private diesel to move to same cost as petrol by upping the tax over a 3/4 year period

Agree. Commercials can get rebates.

7. Install large banks of slow chargers in destination train stations like M3 Parkway etc. Slow chargers to not include fine after 50 mins

That should be done, yes.

8. Large shopping centre, blanchardstown, get incentive to install large banks of slow charge points

Again...I agree.

Dardania wrote: »

Absolutely, this is a valid case, however it doesn’t represent the average. On average people generally have access to a driveway

Have you noticed that lots of apartments have been and continue to be built....with no driveways? In the past 10 years in my locality, I have seen thousands of apartments built and less than a dozen houses with a driveway.

liamog

It's going to be a long time before a fee funded network is viable. The RCN report showed that 16% of required charging was at rapids.
We've 3,500 EVs, doing average annual mileage at 15kWh/100km results in a rapid charger demand of just 3,912 kWh per day.
That's 78 hours of rapid charging per day across our entire rapid network.

If a rapid has a capital cost of €80,000 across 6 years, and we have 100, the network needs to recover €3,650 per day to cover capex costs.
So each rapid charge of 30 mins needs to cover €23.35 on top of energy costs.
I for one have no interest in paying €23 plus €5 for my energy to rapid charge the car.

Shefwedfan

liamog wrote: »

It's going to be a long time before a fee funded network is viable. The RCN report showed that 16% of required charging was at rapids.
We've 3,500 EVs, doing average annual mileage at 15kWh/100km results in a rapid charger demand of just 3,912 kWh per day.
That's 78 hours of rapid charging per day across our entire rapid network.

If a rapid has a capital cost of €80,000 across 6 years, and we have 100, the network needs to recover €3,650 per day to cover capex costs.
So each rapid charge of 30 mins needs to cover €23.35 on top of energy costs.
I for one have no interest in paying €23 plus €5 for my energy to rapid charge the car.

At the moment the government have a deal with tolls owners. Take the M3 for example, the company that built the road also run the tolls. They have an agreed number each year they need to make from the toll. If this is not met then the government will top it up

I would expect to agree something similar. The reason we would want profit for the company is to let them reinvest into the network. Let say they agree each charger needs to make X per year. So the company will also want to install more charger....... If they can do it for a toll road why can't they do it on the electric network

I keep saying it but it is true, Everyone I know does not know or care the network is free, they know it is a joke and that is why they won't move to electric, or one of the reasons

liamog

Completely agree, @25,000 EVs each charge would only need to recover €3.27 on top of the energy cost and would be the point where I'd say it was viable.
Realistically I'd want to increase the network to 4 chargers per site, so around 100,000 EVs would need to be on the road.

Until those numbers are achieved the government should apply the same deal as the toll operator.

creedp

liamog wrote: »

Completely agree, @25,000 EVs each charge would only need to recover €3.27 on top of the energy cost and would be the point where I'd say it was viable.
Realistically I'd want to increase the network to 4 chargers per site, so around 100,000 EVs would need to be on the road.

Until those numbers are achieved the government should apply the same deal as the toll operator.

If queues are experienced at present at popular charging sites with only 3,500 EVs on the road (albeit with only single charging points per site) surely there would be potential for significant delays at these same sites if we increase EVs to 100,000 while only providing 4 charge points per site? Maybe you are suggesting at average of 4 chargers per site with busy sites having say up to 8 units while less busy sites limited to say 2? Otherwise I think I would plan not to rely on Motorway charging sites returning home on a bank holiday Monday when we get to that level of EVs on the road.

liamog

To give you an idea, in my model I've based the figures on an occupation rate of 5.5 hours per day, 11 charges a day.

Assuming that the 11 charges are over a 10 hour period, with a charging time of 30 mins.
There is a 55% chance that someone has to wait, and 52.6% of charges will have to wait less than 10 minutes.

If you increase the number of vehicles to 100,000 and available chargers to 4.
There is a 22% chance that someone has to wait, and 87.6% of charges will have to wait less than 10 minutes.

200,000 and 8 per site, 9.35% wait, and 97.18% within 10 minutes.

unkel

Nice work, Liam. You have that in an Excel spreadsheet?